If you're worried about income for pods...

Started by j0ez0r
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j0ez0r

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then just read this. I know its pretty old, but i recently came across it again.

Podiatry Ranks Second in Highest Average Medical Salaries of Professions Surveyed

Profession carries lower student loan debt, higher quality of life than similar careers
For Immediate Release
June 17, 2008
Bethesda, MD – Students searching for the right opportunity to launch a successful career in medicine have never had more choices than they do today. But according to a recent survey by the American Podiatric Medical Association (APMA), entering the field of podiatry will guarantee graduates something many specialties cannot – one of the highest average salaries in the medical field.
The survey, which compared podiatry to five other popular professions requiring similar medical education, found that the average salary of a podiatrist is $176,000, ranking second out of six. While dentistry has the top-ranked average salary at $200,000, the dental profession also carries a substantial amount of student loan debt of $130,000, which is $20,000 more than podiatry's student loan figures.
Podiatry also sits at the top of the rankings for providing its specialists with a wide range of practice options and high quality of life both in and outside of the office. According to the APMA, the combination of a comfortable work environment, stable amount of hours worked per week and work schedule flexibility gives all podiatrists the chance for a six-figure income while still working a typical, 40-hour week.
"Podiatric medicine not only provides a comfortable salary and flexible work week, it also offers the opportunity to work with state-of-the-art medical equipment, perform life-changing surgery and help treat and manage major medical conditions such as diabetes," said Dr. Ross Taubman, president of the APMA.
The following chart displays the ranking of chosen medical specialties:*


Occupation:

Salary/Yr:

Average Hours/Wk:

Type of School:

Average Student Loan Debt:

Source:

Podiatrist

$176,000

40

Podiatry School

$110,000

American Podiatric Medical Association,
Medical Group Management Association




Dentist

$200,000

40

Dental School (DDS, DMD)

$130,000

American Dental Association




Family Physician

$160,000

50

Medical School (MD)

$140,000

Medical Group Management Association




General Osteopathic Physician

$156,000

50

Medical School (DO)

$140,000

American Osteopathic Association




Pharmacist

$107,000

45

Pharmacy School (Pharm D)

$100,000

American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy




Physical Therapist

$55,000

40

Masters/Doctoral Program

$55,000

American Physical Therapy Association

*Note: All medical specialists listed must also complete a licensing exam before beginning practice. Podiatry salary and student loan debt statistics are representative of all podiatrists nationwide.





http://www.apma.org/MainMenu/News/M...rageMedicalSalariesofProfessionsSurveyed.aspx
 
The source is APMA, :idea:

As far as I am concerned, MDs will make $300,000 out of residency, I hope to make half of that as a DPM,
 
I am definitely an optimist, but please read that "survey" with both feet on the ground. You must compare apples with apples.

Although there is the potential for DPM's to make an excellent living, I know many DPM's that earn twice that average and I know many that earn SIGNIFICANTLY less than that number. You must also take into consideration that those numbers are comparing DPM's to non-surgical specialties such as general practitioners.

I also find it insulting to D.O.'s that they actually have a category of "osteopathic" physician, since in the U.S. osteopaths have really had parity with M.D.'s for many years.

So you are comparing DPM's, who for the most part perform surgical procedures, with general practioner MD/DO's who do not. That's apples and oranges.

Once you start comparing medical SPECIALTIES, those numbers begin to skyrocket. For some odd reason, my name got on an email list for "urologists" and I regularly receive notices for urology positions across the U.S.A.

STARTING salaries for some of these positions, for urologists finishing their residencies and/or fellowships can exceed $300,000. In addition to the excellent training that our new 36 month residents have, why else do you think orthopedic groups are hiring DPM's to peform their foot/ankle surgery???

It's because they can start them anywhere from $90,000 and up, where they would have to START a foot/ankle trained orthopedic surgeon at probably at least $250,000 or more.

Do some google searches, and you will see that orthopedic surgeons, urologists, ENT specialists, etc., all earn in the $300-400,000 range VERY early in their careers.

So, although you can certainly make a good living as a DPM, please understand the "flaws" of that survey and don't think that you are necessarily out-earning your MD/DO surgical colleagues. I HOPE you do, but some of them are starting with some very impressive salaries.
 
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With today's economy, I'd be pressed to see how our incomes will change over the next 3 years. Also Obama's new plans and taxes on higher income professionals will definitely affect all of us new practitioners (DPMs, DO/MDs, DDS, etc.)
 
I am definitely an optimist, but please read that "survey" with both feet on the ground. You must compare apples with apples.

Although there is the potential for DPM's to make an excellent living, I know many DPM's that earn twice that average and I know many that earn SIGNIFICANTLY less than that number. You must also take into consideration that those numbers are comparing DPM's to non-surgical specialties such as general practitioners.

I also find it insulting to D.O.'s that they actually have a category of "osteopathic" physician, since in the U.S. osteopaths have really had parity with M.D.'s for many years.

So you are comparing DPM's, who for the most part perform surgical procedures, with general practioner MD/DO's who do not. That's apples and oranges.

Once you start comparing medical SPECIALTIES, those numbers begin to skyrocket. For some odd reason, my name got on an email list for "urologists" and I regularly receive notices for urology positions across the U.S.A.

STARTING salaries for some of these positions, for urologists finishing their residencies and/or fellowships can exceed $300,000. In addition to the excellent training that our new 36 month residents have, why else do you think orthopedic groups are hiring DPM's to peform their foot/ankle surgery???

It's because they can start them anywhere from $90,000 and up, where they would have to START a foot/ankle trained orthopedic surgeon at probably at least $250,000 or more.

Do some google searches, and you will see that orthopedic surgeons, urologists, ENT specialists, etc., all earn in the $300-400,000 range VERY early in their careers.

So, although you can certainly make a good living as a DPM, please understand the "flaws" of that survey and don't think that you are necessarily out-earning your MD/DO surgical colleagues. I HOPE you do, but some of them are starting with some very impressive salaries.

Amen.
 
In addition to the excellent training that our new 36 month residents have, why else do you think orthopedic groups are hiring DPM's to peform their foot/ankle surgery???

It's because they can start them anywhere from $90,000 and up, where they would have to START a foot/ankle trained orthopedic surgeon at probably at least $250,000 or more.
.

As a practicing Physician can you please share your opinion on Podiatric surgery and its economics with us. Last summer i shadowed a Pod in wisconsin. he honestly scared the sh....t out of me and infact totally repelled my mind frm Podiatric Surgery.Well he was rational and not disgruntled about it. he has a great practice and enjoys good respect and friendship with other MDs/DOs including orthos out here.

This his theory which i keep on repeating on SDN, as a practicing physican what do you think about this. iam dying to hear views frm other pods on this issue.

Not all surgeries are alike. An ortho surgeon or F & A ortho surgeon though specialist of foot but they can work on all major joints of the body and usually hip,knee and spine are gold mines when it comes to reimbursements,etc so they can afford to provide their patients the free post-op period be it 1 month long or 3 months long. the fee is pretty good.,etc even basic tendon or ligament repair of knee pays good.

Where as Foot & Ankle surgery, though equally challenging and interesting pays very less and a committed Foot & ANKLE surgical practice will be no less than a suicide from economical stand point. he showed me the Medicare schedule forms, and the rates he gets from Bluecross and Aetna. Honestly i was convinced by him. A hammer toe was paid $200 ,Bunion was $800-1200, Tendon release procedures were another $200-400 range. So if we spend 2-3 days in surgery and spend remaining days seeing post op followup patients for free be it 90 days or watever the time is, they are losing that much money. In comparision to Surgery, a simple I & D procedure was paid $100 (medicare) - $400 (bluecross) and it took hardly 5-10 mins and that was the end of the case. no free followups or complications,etc. and Orthotics and how much they are billed,etc. One can prescibe orthotics, perform C &C , nail avectomies,etc and still be profitable then doing bunions or other surgery.


Basically his practice is C &C and nursing homes. he proudly accepts it and hea ctively encouraged me to shadow a Podiatrist who spends his time exclusively in surgery. Unfortunately i wasnt able to find one. nearly all pods i contacted or shadowed said me the same thing about Surgery. that though Pods can do surgery but economically its not that worth it to dedicate all the time to it.

This feb we had 1 week vacation and i shadowed a Pod who has good orthotic practice and he also said me the same story. not that bad as the earlier one but he also said me that surgery is no way 100% our bread & butter.

For some reason, Podiatry is glorified or is being projected as an exclusive surgical subspeciality where as the pods out there in market dont do 100% surgery. they all have a good mix of conservative + surgical practice.
 
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As a practicing Physician can you please share your opinion on Podiatric surgery and its economics with us. Last summer i shadowed a Pod in wisconsin. he honestly scared the sh....t out of me and infact totally repelled my mind frm Podiatric Surgery.Well he was rational and not disgruntled about it. he has a great practice and enjoys good respect and friendship with other MDs/DOs including orthos out here.

This his theory which i keep on repeating on SDN, as a practicing physican what do you think about this. iam dying to hear views frm other pods on this issue.

Not all surgeries are alike. An ortho surgeon or F & A ortho surgeon though specialist of foot but they can work on all major joints of the body and usually hip,knee and spine are gold mines when it comes to reimbursements,etc so they can afford to provide their patients the free post-op period be it 1 month long or 3 months long. the fee is pretty good.,etc even basic tendon or ligament repair of knee pays good.

Where as Foot & Ankle surgery, though equally challenging and interesting pays very less and a committed Foot & ANKLE surgical practice will be no less than a suicide from economical stand point. he showed me the Medicare schedule forms, and the rates he gets from Bluecross and Aetna. Honestly i was convinced by him. A hammer toe was paid $200 ,Bunion was $800-1200, Tendon release procedures were another $200-400 range. So if we spend 2-3 days in surgery and spend remaining days seeing post op followup patients for free be it 90 days or watever the time is, they are losing that much money. In comparision to Surgery, a simple I & D procedure was paid $100 (medicare) - $400 (bluecross) and it took hardly 5-10 mins and that was the end of the case. no free followups or complications,etc. and Orthotics and how much they are billed,etc. One can prescibe orthotics, perform C &C , nail avectomies,etc and still be profitable then doing bunions or other surgery.


Basically his practice is C &C and nursing homes. he proudly accepts it and hea ctively encouraged me to shadow a Podiatrist who spends his time exclusively in surgery. Unfortunately i wasnt able to find one. nearly all pods i contacted or shadowed said me the same thing about Surgery. that though Pods can do surgery but economically its not that worth it to dedicate all the time to it.

This feb we had 1 week vacation and i shadowed a Pod who has good orthotic practice and he also said me the same story. not that bad as the earlier one but he also said me that surgery is no way 100% our bread & butter.

For some reason, Podiatry is glorified or is being projected as an exclusive surgical subspeciality where as the pods out there in market dont do 100% surgery. they all have a good mix of conservative + surgical practice.

For my private practice rotation, I worked with a pod who is employed within an ortho group - we saw nothing but surgical consultations and he was doing pretty well. Also, one of the residency directors that I shadowed (hopefully my future residency director this monday lol), saw something like 40-50 patients per day on average (if not more) and they were all either consults, trauma, or reconstructive cases with no C&C. The guy operated 2.5 days/week and saw patients for the other 2.5 days. His practice was also within an ortho group and he actually grossed the most out of his group. What both surgeons had in common was a great ortho group that provided alot of the referrals as well as smart clinical and practice management. Dispensing like orthotics, AFO's for example as well as having a PT office right next door. Podiatry is a procedural specialty so we get compensated for things like injections, AFO's, tapings, and in-office procedures.

Yes it probably pays more to cast 2 orthotics versus performing a subtalar joint fusion on a patient with a painful and arthritic STJ. However, it all comes down to what you want to do as a clinician - If it ends up being a money equation then no surgery alone is not going to make you "rich". However, it should be about professional satisfaction not milking insurance companies for $. At the end of the day, you'd still be in the six figures range (probably underpaid) but you'd be a complete foot and ankle surgeon who can probably make a difference in someone's life. You're never going to fix someone's painful tarsal coalition with an orthotic, but a successful surgery would make a positive impact on that person for the rest of his or her life - to me that's the reward that I want to see.

Just my 2 cents.
 
For my private practice rotation, I worked with a pod who is employed within an ortho group - we saw nothing but surgical consultations and he was doing pretty well. Also, one of the residency directors that I shadowed (hopefully my future residency director this monday lol), saw something like 40-50 patients per day on average (if not more) and they were all either consults, trauma, or reconstructive cases with no C&C. The guy operated 2.5 days/week and saw patients for the other 2.5 days. His practice was also within an ortho group and he actually grossed the most out of his group. What both surgeons had in common was a great ortho group that provided alot of the referrals as well as smart clinical and practice management. Dispensing like orthotics, AFO's for example as well as having a PT office right next door. Podiatry is a procedural specialty so we get compensated for things like injections, AFO's, tapings, and in-office procedures.

Yes it probably pays more to cast 2 orthotics versus performing a subtalar joint fusion on a patient with a painful and arthritic STJ. However, it all comes down to what you want to do as a clinician - If it ends up being a money equation then no surgery alone is not going to make you "rich". However, it should be about professional satisfaction not milking insurance companies for $. At the end of the day, you'd still be in the six figures range (probably underpaid) but you'd be a complete foot and ankle surgeon who can probably make a difference in someone's life. You're never going to fix someone's painful tarsal coalition with an orthotic, but a successful surgery would make a positive impact on that person for the rest of his or her life - to me that's the reward that I want to see.

Just my 2 cents.

👍 Thanks boss. I need really to reignite the surgeon in me. lol. If all goes well i will starting my 3rd yr from summer.So i gotta get motivated for PM & S-36🙂

what residency program you considering?
 
👍 Thanks boss. I need really to reignite the surgeon in me. lol. If all goes well i will starting my 3rd yr from summer.So i gotta get motivated for PM & S-36🙂

what residency program you considering?

Trust me you haven't seen anything until you start your clinical rotations and clerkships. There is definitely light at the end of the tunnel. Podiatric surgery has plenty to offer, as long as you stay focused and motivated. We really do have a great gig.

As far as my residency situation, our match day is this monday so I will have to answer your question when its official then 🙂
 
Excellent question(s).

First and foremost, you must do what makes you happy, and not be motivated strictly by financial gains. Surgery in our profession seems to naturally draw more attention, because it is certainly more glamorous, prestigious and "sexy" than performing c&c, palliative care, etc.

However, not all patients require surgery, and there is nothing like seeing a very satisfied patient walk out of your office extremely happy after learning that he/she does NOT need surgery, and that you have just solved his/her problem conservatively and relieved the discomfort with a simple injection, strapping, orthoses, etc.

Surgical intervention has it's indications in our TOTAL armementarium of practice, but I sincerely believe too many of the younger DPM's are a little TOO quick to cut, and eventually that's going to bite them in the rear end regarding legal matters.

I presently have several law suits sitting on my desk to attempt to defend, all involving young DPM's that performed major reconstructive procedures on patients that absolutely did NOT need these procedures, after not offering these patients any conservative options. Each procedure failed miserably and now these patients are crippled. The doctors never even OFFERED or attempted conservative care for very treatable conditions in the early stages.

High volume surgical practices can sustain financially, especially if you have residents rotating through your office or great ancillary help. If you have to spend a lot of time removing dressings, removing casts, reapplying dressings, reapplying casts, taking x-rays, etc., etc., it can become very time consuming and not cost effective.

Additionally, if your hospital does not have residents, the simply amount of time traveling to and from the hospital, performing the paper work, prep work, etc., can add hours to a case. Not to mention whether or not there are complications and you have to come in at night or weekends.

NOT ALL DPM'S ARE GOING TO SCORE GREAT JOBS WITH ORTHOPEDIC PRACTICES. Please repeat that 10 times!!!!

When you land a job with an orthopedic practice, you basically show up, work and collect a check. When you are in private practice, YOU now are responsible for paying the bills, not someone else. That becomes a WHOLE different story. Additionally, a patient schedule isn't handed to you, it is YOUR responsible to find patients and fill your own schedule.

So please remember that it's not ALWAYS a utopia out there and there are only so many "perfect" positions.

Yes, in reality you can probably hour for hour, dollar for dollar make more money performing P&A's and orthotics all day than major surgeries. A few weeks ago I received a whopping $348 for performing a subtalar arthrodesis, with the OR time and all the resultant follow up required.

I did a P&A on the patient's cousin, and charged $300 for the right hallux and the same for the left hallux. A few weeks later I received a check for $525 for the 10 minutes in took me. YOU do the math.

But you can't look at patients like dollar bills....or at least I can't. In my office I do everything from cutting old ladies toenails to performing major procedures with ex-fix frames. I turn away no patients and treat patients, not insurance companies.

Economy and times are hard, so although you love surgery, my recommendation is to not forget your roots and practice the full scope. It will never hurt. Then, when you are super successful and start hiring associates, pick and choose.
 
Excellent question(s).

First and foremost, you must do what makes you happy, and not be motivated strictly by financial gains. Surgery in our profession seems to naturally draw more attention, because it is certainly more glamorous, prestigious and "sexy" than performing c&c, palliative care, etc.

However, not all patients require surgery, and there is nothing like seeing a very satisfied patient walk out of your office extremely happy after learning that he/she does NOT need surgery, and that you have just solved his/her problem conservatively and relieved the discomfort with a simple injection, strapping, orthoses, etc.

Surgical intervention has it's indications in our TOTAL armementarium of practice, but I sincerely believe too many of the younger DPM's are a little TOO quick to cut, and eventually that's going to bite them in the rear end regarding legal matters.

I presently have several law suits sitting on my desk to attempt to defend, all involving young DPM's that performed major reconstructive procedures on patients that absolutely did NOT need these procedures, after not offering these patients any conservative options. Each procedure failed miserably and now these patients are crippled. The doctors never even OFFERED or attempted conservative care for very treatable conditions in the early stages.

High volume surgical practices can sustain financially, especially if you have residents rotating through your office or great ancillary help. If you have to spend a lot of time removing dressings, removing casts, reapplying dressings, reapplying casts, taking x-rays, etc., etc., it can become very time consuming and not cost effective.

Additionally, if your hospital does not have residents, the simply amount of time traveling to and from the hospital, performing the paper work, prep work, etc., can add hours to a case. Not to mention whether or not there are complications and you have to come in at night or weekends.

NOT ALL DPM'S ARE GOING TO SCORE GREAT JOBS WITH ORTHOPEDIC PRACTICES. Please repeat that 10 times!!!!

When you land a job with an orthopedic practice, you basically show up, work and collect a check. When you are in private practice, YOU now are responsible for paying the bills, not someone else. That becomes a WHOLE different story. Additionally, a patient schedule isn't handed to you, it is YOUR responsible to find patients and fill your own schedule.

So please remember that it's not ALWAYS a utopia out there and there are only so many "perfect" positions.

Yes, in reality you can probably hour for hour, dollar for dollar make more money performing P&A's and orthotics all day than major surgeries. A few weeks ago I received a whopping $348 for performing a subtalar arthrodesis, with the OR time and all the resultant follow up required.

I did a P&A on the patient's cousin, and charged $300 for the right hallux and the same for the left hallux. A few weeks later I received a check for $525 for the 10 minutes in took me. YOU do the math.

But you can't look at patients like dollar bills....or at least I can't. In my office I do everything from cutting old ladies toenails to performing major procedures with ex-fix frames. I turn away no patients and treat patients, not insurance companies.

Economy and times are hard, so although you love surgery, my recommendation is to not forget your roots and practice the full scope. It will never hurt. Then, when you are super successful and start hiring associates, pick and choose.


I completely agree with you that we need to always keep our "roots" in mind as far as offering patients sound conservative therapy. The podiatric physicians that I mentioned in my previous posts were very conscious in choosing the right patient to operate on, after consuming the appropriate array of conservative measures. This is part of what I meant by making sound clinical and practice management. My point is that we shouldn't shy away from taking the patient to the OR when indicated, if we are trained to do so regardless of the financial gain. This is ultimately part of our professional mission as physicians and surgeons of the foot and ankle, and that is to provide the most comprehensive care for our patients.

On a side note to the fellow students, AFO's and orthotics have a great place in our "arsenal". A 90 year old patient with CHF and complicated systemic diseases who complains of an arthritic ankle joint is not your prime candidate for an ankle fusion, but a proper AFO would accomplish what you want without putting her on the OR table. The take home point is that as future clinicians, we have to be very conscious as to who we choose to operate on, whom we cannot, and ultimately what is best for the patient (his/her health, social condition - i.e. if they are living alone, etc.). You cannot fuse a subtalar joint on a patient living alone and on the 3rd floor of an apartment building for example.
 
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Thanks PADPM & PMS-III its always a blessing to have real docs, senior students share their experiences with us.

I agree one shud never shy away from Surgery and never base practice just on income, but if you observe there is this strong propoganda or marketting being done as Podiatry is a very exclusive Foot & Ankle surgica speciality or subspeciality.
A lot of prepod posts are also oriented in that way because this is what they have been presented. Iam afraid they might end up disgruntled by the time they reach 2nd yr and keep their first step in clinics to see the diversity of Clinical cases (ortho,derm,general,peds) we see each day.

iam very uncomfortable by this stratergy. We are having prepods who are thinking Pods are 24/7 surgeon where as we do some many other kewl things apart from surgery. Iam not against surgery, but i dnt want people to potray Podiatry as an exclusive surgical subspeciality.I believe Podiatry is a very dynamic and versatile field which incorporates various specialitis to treat Foot & Ankle pathologies. As a Podiatrist we can manage medically fatal infections or surgically treat club foot ,we can do ankle fusion one day and treat some derm condition the next. I looove Podiatry because of this flexibility.

I really hope we potray Podiatry as multispeciality field dedicated to treat "Any Foot & Ankle pathology , be it medical, derm, surgical, biomechanical,etc etc
 
Thanks PADPM & PMS-III its always a blessing to have real docs, senior students share their experiences with us.

I agree one shud never shy away from Surgery and never base practice just on income, but if you observe there is this strong propoganda or marketting being done as Podiatry is a very exclusive Foot & Ankle surgica speciality or subspeciality.
A lot of prepod posts are also oriented in that way because this is what they have been presented. Iam afraid they might end up disgruntled by the time they reach 2nd yr and keep their first step in clinics to see the diversity of Clinical cases (ortho,derm,general,peds) we see each day.

iam very uncomfortable by this stratergy. We are having prepods who are thinking Pods are 24/7 surgeon where as we do some many other kewl things apart from surgery. Iam not against surgery, but i dnt want people to potray Podiatry as an exclusive surgical subspeciality.I believe Podiatry is a very dynamic and versatile field which incorporates various specialitis to treat Foot & Ankle pathologies. As a Podiatrist we can manage medically fatal infections or surgically treat club foot ,we can do ankle fusion one day and treat some derm condition the next. I looove Podiatry because of this flexibility.

I really hope we potray Podiatry as multispeciality field dedicated to treat "Any Foot & Ankle pathology , be it medical, derm, surgical, biomechanical,etc etc

I think our identity is a big issue within our profession because alot of our own don't know what we do. The number of designations and accredations that continue to increase our alphabetic soup only impose more confusion on ourselves before our fellow medical professional colleagues
 
I would say that average for Family practice is a bit high. I would say more like 110-120K would be a more realistic average. I've worked with many in my day from multiple separate practices and none of them were much over 120K.

Again, you also have to look at the amount of people that were surveyed for this comparison. If my memory serves me correctly, this article would hardly stand up to the statistical gauntlet of an IRB (I also believe it was in that issue of JAPMA, I may be thinking of a different survey, but one was at one point).
 
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I would say that average for Family practice is a bit high. I would say more like 110-120K would be a more realistic average. I've worked with many in my day from multiple separate practices and none of them were much over 120K.
I know several FPs who make $150,000-$280,000. The number of hours worked per week sounds accurate though. I think the data in those surveys is skewed towards the low side.
 
I know several FPs who make $150,000-$280,000. The number of hours worked per week sounds accurate though. I think the data in those surveys is skewed towards the low side.

Is that gross or net?
 
Is that gross or net?
It's not only gross, it's disgusting.

Those figures are after expenses, before taxes (i.e. net). The ones I know gross around $500,000.

They get to bill a lot of Level 4 Initial Office Visits ($$$$) and they also can do procedures (biopsies, paps, IUD's, etc.)
 
I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you rephrase it?


you said you think the data in the survey was skewed towards the low side so i was asking if you knew of a survey or website that presented the median to high side.
 
you said you think the data in the survey was skewed towards the low side so i was asking if you knew of a survey or website that presented the median to high side.
Okay, now I understand what you are asking.

I do not know of any resource that would have completely accurate data (except for the IRS -- maybe).