IM vs FM

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I was just curious, what are the difference in these two pathways? relative difficulties of the residency, scope of practice, career pathways, amount and type of paperwork etc.? Can FM still do hospitalist and/or academics? I remember reading on here "FM and it's associated fellowships focus on different populations, whereas IM focuses on an organ system," does that hold up?

Edit: One of my interviews coming up is known to ask about what specialty you are interested in and I have an interest in FM and community health, but also in academics and basic science research. This is to help me better ensure that my answer to this question actually makes sense.
 
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Focus on getting into medical school. You will literally learn the answer to this when you do your rotations.
 
Don’t you have like 5 interviews to prepare for?
Exactly. One of my interviews coming up is known to ask about what specialty you are interested in and I have an interest in FM and community health, but also in academics and basic science research. This is to help me better ensure that my answer to this question actually makes sense.

Good point though,let me add this to the initial post so it doesn't just come off as a random healthcare topic question...
 
I was just curious, what are the difference in these two pathways? relative difficulties of the residency, scope of practice, career pathways, amount and type of paperwork etc.? Can FM still do hospitalist and/or academics? I remember reading on here "FM and it's associated fellowships focus on different populations, whereas IM focuses on an organ system," does that hold up?

Edit: One of my interviews coming up is known to ask about what specialty you are interested in and I have an interest in FM and community health, but also in academics and basic science research. This is to help me better ensure that my answer to this question actually makes sense.

Browsing through the specialty-specific forums is always a good idea.
 
My general impression is that IM deals with the more serious stuff. I haven’t done much research myself, full disclosure, but it seems they are the ones that deal with the ER patients that get admitted, not FM.
 
One of my interviews coming up is known to ask about what specialty you are interested in and I have an interest in FM and community health, but also in academics and basic science research. This is to help me better ensure that my answer to this question actually makes sense.
You do not need to be specific for this question. You can say, "Well I know that I have an interest in community health and would like to work with underserved populations. I don't have much exposure to the surgical specialties but haven't ruled them out. Currently I'm thinking IM or FM may be the way I can best achieve those career goals."

You do not need to be nuanced in the finer points of the specialities. But to give you more insight, IM it traditionally a hospital based practice. Without fellowship, you can work as a hospitalist treating medical patients. Fellowship gives you the training to be a cardiologist, gastroenterologist, rheum, onc, etc. Some Im docs choose to do a clinic based practice and see patients as their PCP.

FM is your traditional PCP doctor. In most large markets they are solely an outpatient practice. Some still do see patients in-patient, but this is usually in more rural or underserved communities. In these communities, many PCPs will also be defacto pediatricians, OBs, etc.

As you can see there are many commonalities as well as specific differences and limitations. The best thing to do is just speak to the goals of your medical career. You're allowed to be unsure.
 
Exactly. One of my interviews coming up is known to ask about what specialty you are interested in and I have an interest in FM and community health, but also in academics and basic science research. This is to help me better ensure that my answer to this question actually makes sense.

Good point though,let me add this to the initial post so it doesn't just come off as a random healthcare topic question...

In my interviews I have said both FM and IM and elaborated on why...BUT MAYBE I MESSED UP!
 
One sees kids, the other doesn’t. Some IM programs are more outpatient based, some FM programs are more inpatient based
 
Family medicine encompasses adult medicine + pediatrics + ob/gyn. you are unable to subspecialize in adult cardiology or gastroenterology etc if you do a FM residency. there are FM hospitalists but those are less common than IM and more likely to see in more rural/community based facilities rather than major hospitals in big cities (I work at one of the biggest hospitals in Texas as a hospitalist and we are all IM trained)
 
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Family medicine encompasses adult medicine + pediatrics + ob/gyn. you are unable to subspecialize in adult cardiology or gastroenterology etc if you do a FM residency. there are FM hospitalists but those are less common than IM and more likely to see in more rural/community based facilities rather than major hospitals in big cities (I work at one of the biggest hospitals in Texas as a hospitalist and we are all IM trained)
Is there ever a benefit to dual IM/FM?
 
You would think that based on all my research thus far being bone related (hopefully abstract for a poster at Orthopedic Research society gets approved...) but I genuinely don’t want the lifestyle of surgery.
derm, ent, or ophthal.
Nah, skin, eyes, and facial orifices really don’t appeal to me. Genuinely not a gunner, could care less about prestige - just want to treat patients with a focus on a population/community health as opposed to an organ system. I really like “total scope of anatomy” type of specialties with particular emphasis on MSK or vasculatur and plenty of procedures. So maybe Sports medicine from FM, or PM&R, or IR, or cardiology. Thems my big ideas as a premed.

Edit: The variability is to suggest that IDK what I want - I just like MSK, body tubes/vessels, and procedures and want nothing to do with surgery because of lifestyle not interest.
Doesn't exist.
Dual FM/IM doesn’t exist? Yup - just googled it. Apparently there was one that will close once the class of 2022 graduates. Dope.
 
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The variability is to suggest that IDK what I want - I just like MSK, body tubes/vessels, and procedures and want nothing to do with surgery because of lifestyle not interest.
Hey, y’all kinda helped me answer the question.
 
Hey, y’all kinda helped me answer the question.

I'm an MS4 and really enjoyed FM more than I thought I would. I've been pretty hellbent on doing IM for most of the last year but now that ERAS is about to open I'm considering applying to FM as well. I really like the flexibility that FM offers as a career (high demand and low supply in every geographical region) and it was nice to see the good rapport between patients and their PCP as they've been longtime patients for years. Like you, I've never had a desire to go into Surgery though I'd like to say Anesthesia is mega cool! My IM rotation was hellish and was 100% inpatient in a major academic center. Everyone tells me that those who still don't know what they want to do in fourth year go into IM. So, what I'm saying is I'm nine months from graduation and even I still have the same question.
 
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Yes they do
https://www.aafp.org/dam/AAFP/documents/medical_education_residency/the_match/strolling-match.pdf
Of the 51 specialties that participated in the
2018 NRMP, 22 were combined residency
programs. Internal medicine–pediatrics might
be one of the most well-known combined
program types, but internal medicine,
pediatrics, and family medicine have a
number of combined training options.
The five combined programs available in
family medicine are:
1) Family Medicine–Emergency Medicine
2) Family Medicine–Internal Medicine
3) Family Medicine–Preventive Medicine
4) Family Medicine–Psychiatry
5) Family Medicine–Osteopathic
Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine


Additionally, there are 20 fellowship areas available to FM grads,
View attachment 279062

Sorry I should have been more clear: very rare and pointless.
There is zero reason to do a combined FM/IM residency.
 
Yes they do
https://www.aafp.org/dam/AAFP/documents/medical_education_residency/the_match/strolling-match.pdf
Of the 51 specialties that participated in the
2018 NRMP, 22 were combined residency
programs. Internal medicine–pediatrics might
be one of the most well-known combined
program types, but internal medicine,
pediatrics, and family medicine have a
number of combined training options.
The five combined programs available in
family medicine are:
1) Family Medicine–Emergency Medicine
2) Family Medicine–Internal Medicine
3) Family Medicine–Preventive Medicine
4) Family Medicine–Psychiatry
5) Family Medicine–Osteopathic
Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine


Additionally, there are 20 fellowship areas available to FM grads,
View attachment 279062
Well yes, but actually no.

ERAS lists 2 programs (ERAS 2020 Participating Specialties & Programs) one of which is closing in 2022 (so not taking any applicants at this time, that's St. Vincent) and the other doesn't actually seem to exist (Fresno, their website has no mention of it)
 
Disclaimer: this is all just my subjective personal experience based on my own experiences applying to FM residency/being an FM resident, and what I've heard from attendings and residents in both specialties.

Relative difficulties of residencies: Highly program dependent. There are both IM and FM programs where you will routinely hit 80 hrs, and ones where you'll be mostly in the 50-60 range (for IM this is mostly the primary care-directed programs). I would say on the average IM ones tend to have longer hours but if you want to do more than just bread and butter outpatient FM, you need to be at a more intense program to get the training to do so.

Scope of practice/career pathways:
- Every FM program will prepare you for outpatient primary care, and a solid number of office procedures like skin stuff, basic gyn, and joint injections. Many will prepare you for basic adult inpatient stuff. Some will prepare you for inpatient peds, OB, and more critical/less common adult inpatient stuff. The benefits of FM over IM for scope of practice are the ability to do peds and OB, and generally speaking better gyn and office-based procedure training as well.
- IM will prepare you for inpatient and outpatient adult medicine. The added benefit is the ability to specialize.
- Fellowships also play into this which I'll get to in a minute.

Amount and type of paperwork: basically the same, more dependent on practice setting than residency training.

Hospitalist work: Yes, FM can do hospitalist - but in some areas it's less common than IM hospitalists, and you need to graduate from a program that will train you well for it. The community I'm in for residency is very FM-friendly, and almost all of my FM faculty members do inpatient work, as do lots of FM community docs. Some places, generally academic centers in bigger cities, prefer IM-trained docs.

Academics: Yes FM can do academics, though I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "academics." There are literally hundreds of FM residencies out there in pretty much any location you might want to be where you could teach and do research.

Fellowships:
- Generally, IM fellowships will restrict your scope of practice to that specialty (cardiology, heme-onc, nephrology, etc.). Yes, it generally focuses on an organ system.
- I would agree that FM fellowships are more population focused - women's health/OB, geriatrics, adolescent medicine, addiction medicine, sports medicine, etc. Generally these will expand your scope of practice, e.g. learning to provide more advanced maternity care and do C-sections, or learning to do medication-assisted treatment for opioid addiction, but still doing all the other FM things along with those skill sets.
Thank you very much for a thorough response! This is awesome!
 
Yes they do
https://www.aafp.org/dam/AAFP/documents/medical_education_residency/the_match/strolling-match.pdf
Of the 51 specialties that participated in the
2018 NRMP, 22 were combined residency
programs. Internal medicine–pediatrics might
be one of the most well-known combined
program types, but internal medicine,
pediatrics, and family medicine have a
number of combined training options.
The five combined programs available in
family medicine are:
1) Family Medicine–Emergency Medicine
2) Family Medicine–Internal Medicine
3) Family Medicine–Preventive Medicine
4) Family Medicine–Psychiatry
5) Family Medicine–Osteopathic
Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine


Additionally, there are 20 fellowship areas available to FM grads,
View attachment 279062
I think this will be the first time @gonnif has ever been called bruh, but...

BRUH, Dual family medicine/preventative medicine with a fellowship in community medicine = life. Obviously this is just based on the names of things and I need to do research, but that combo sounds PERFECT!!
 
I would agree that FM fellowships are more population focused
Do FM fellowships tend to open up new career pathways, increase wages, or are they more like a true fellowship where one goes into it simply for increased knowledge and scope of practice? Like, I understand the women’s health stuff to be able to do C-Sections, but what would one gain from a rural medicine fellowship beyond just knowledge of how to be a rural FM?
 
I think this will be the first time @gonnif has ever been called bruh, but...

BRUH, Dual family medicine/preventative medicine with a fellowship in community medicine = life. Obviously this is just based on the names of things and I need to do research, but that combo sounds PERFECT!!

Why would you do fellowships in things that are taught to you in a FM residency? Remember you need to consider the cost to do a fellowship is a year of attending salary. A fellowship in "community medicine" (LOL this is what FM largely is) is most definitely not worth 250k...
Do FM fellowships tend to open up new career pathways, increase wages,

Generally no.
 
Why would you do fellowships in things that are taught to you in a FM residency? Remember you need to consider the cost to do a fellowship is a year of attending salary. A fellowship in "community medicine" (LOL this is what FM largely is) is most definitely not worth 250k...


Generally no.
Lol I totally understand that. I was going 100% based on the name of things in that those would be my ‘ideal career titles’ or whatever. But I also understand that, the fellowship training is likely not worth it Save for specific niche career options if at all.
 
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IM is going in an office based direction. My personal Internist takes care of all the Big Wigs at our local university and a few years back he was told that he could not do inpatient care for his patients . He would have to transfer me to a hospitalist. I personally am not a fan of the hospitalist model. Too many sign outs resulting in poor communications with PCP and even poor communication amongst hospitalists. I have seen it personally. PCP dont get follow up letters or discharge summaries. My PCP friends sometimes dont even know the patient was admitted.
 
IM is going in an office based direction. My personal Internist takes care of all the Big Wigs at our local university and a few years back he was told that he could not do inpatient care for his patients . He would have to transfer me to a hospitalist. I personally am not a fan of the hospitalist model. Too many sign outs resulting in poor communications with PCP and even poor communication amongst hospitalists. I have seen it personally. PCP dont get follow up letters or discharge summaries. My PCP friends sometimes dont even know the patient was admitted.
So the role of hospitalization and internist really are separating? I think there is an entire thread going over on the MD student forums aboutbthat so I won’t ask about that, but in terms of IM vs FM for outpatient based PCP, is there really any difference beyond kids? Same goes for IM vs FM hospitalist, any real difference beyond kids?
 
I do love kids and can do a ton of wacky voices, but I want to be able to work with both kids and adults.

There are combined IM/peds residency programs. It also leaves options open later if you change your mind and want to do a fellowship for a competitive fellowship like cardiology.
 
So the role of hospitalization and internist really are separating? I think there is an entire thread going over on the MD student forums aboutbthat so I won’t ask about that, but in terms of IM vs FM for outpatient based PCP, is there really any difference beyond kids? Same goes for IM vs FM hospitalist, any real difference beyond kids?
In our area the internist is being separated from inpatient care. Hospitalists are providing the bulk of the inpatient care. My neighbors are both hospitalists. I think general internists would gravitate to the more complicated outpatient cases where FM might want to have an a more diverse practice, peds, sports med, etc. IMO.
 
How exactly would an IM Physician practice primary care? I only have experience with Hospitalists and Subspecialists.
 
There are combined IM/peds residency programs.

Med-Peds doc checking in. The way I considered it when applying was like this:

FM vs IM: FM is mostly geared towards outpatient training and also includes OB and surgical rotations that are not included in IM. Overall, my FM colleagues are better at in-office procedures like joint injections than their IM counterparts but have less hospital-based training, less medical sub-specialty training, and much less ICU training. Both can work in clinics or hospitals, although Hospitalist gigs are more common among IM-trained physicians. Both have fellowships but the big money-makers (cards, GI, etc) require IM fellowship. FM fellowships are generally things like sports med, preventative care, some OB pathways, etc.

FM vs Med-Peds: Like IM, Med-Peds covers more inpatient, sub specialty, and ICU training but has no OB or surgery. Med-Peds overall provides more in-depth pediatrics training (2 years opposed to 6-9 months of dedicated training) and also lets graduates apply to any pediatric or IM fellowships. Med-Peds is longer at 4 years and isn’t well-established everywhere in the US, but it generally leaves more options open.
 
Med-Peds doc checking in. The way I considered it when applying was like this:

FM vs IM: FM is mostly geared towards outpatient training and also includes OB and surgical rotations that are not included in IM. Overall, my FM colleagues are better at in-office procedures like joint injections than their IM counterparts but have less hospital-based training, less medical sub-specialty training, and much less ICU training. Both can work in clinics or hospitals, although Hospitalist gigs are more common among IM-trained physicians. Both have fellowships but the big money-makers (cards, GI, etc) require IM fellowship. FM fellowships are generally things like sports med, preventative care, some OB pathways, etc.

FM vs Med-Peds: Like IM, Med-Peds covers more inpatient, sub specialty, and ICU training but has no OB or surgery. Med-Peds overall provides more in-depth pediatrics training (2 years opposed to 6-9 months of dedicated training) and also lets graduates apply to any pediatric or IM fellowships. Med-Peds is longer at 4 years and isn’t well-established everywhere in the US, but it generally leaves more options open.

Are Med-Peds less competitive for pediatric and IM fellowships as compared to those who did a Peds only or IM only residency, respectively?
 
Are Med-Peds less competitive for pediatric and IM fellowships as compared to those who did a Peds only or IM only residency, respectively?

No less competitive, and in sone cases possibly more competitive (Peds ICU comes to mind here). You come out of residency board eligible in both IM and Peds having fully completed 2 residency programs. Some people even go on to do combined fellowships (adult and Peds rheum, ID, Heme-onc, cards, etc)
 
No less competitive, and in sone cases possibly more competitive (Peds ICU comes to mind here). You come out of residency board eligible in both IM and Peds having fully completed 2 residency programs. Some people even go on to do combined fellowships (adult and Peds rheum, ID, Heme-onc, cards, etc)
As a MED/peds, are you able to comment on your position specifically? Do you have ability to do a lot of procedures in an inpatient setting or are procedures more an outpatient thing? Sorry for any confusion with my questions, I like the idea of both children and adults along with a lot of procedures, which is what attracted me to FM. But I am also really big on hospitalist and don’t care too much for the OB/Gyn stuff.
 
As a MED/peds, are you able to comment on your position specifically? Do you have ability to do a lot of procedures in an inpatient setting or are procedures more an outpatient thing? Sorry for any confusion with my questions, I like the idea of both children and adults along with a lot of procedures, which is what attracted me to FM. But I am also really big on hospitalist and don’t care too much for the OB/Gyn stuff.

There is a YouTuber (Tommy Martin) who just started PGY2 of his Med-Peds residency. I think you'll like his videos. He is a Carib. grad so some of his residency application tips may not apply, but his experience on the life of a Med-Peds residency will be useful.
 
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As a MED/peds, are you able to comment on your position specifically? Do you have ability to do a lot of procedures in an inpatient setting or are procedures more an outpatient thing?

During training, you get more inpatient procedures with IM than with FM but it pales in comparison to what our EM, IR, or (for some procedures) anesthesia colleagues do. I’m in my last year of residency - as of now, i have done about a dozen central lines, arterial lines, and lumbar punctures; about 5-6 paras and thoras; and 1-3 intubations and bronchoscopies. I’ve sutured and drained more abscesses than I can remember. I’ve done a grand total of 1 joint aspiration / joint injection and have yet to remove anything bigger than a skin tag in a clinic setting. Ask an EM resident how many intubation and lines they’ve done and the answer will be >250, FYI.

What procedures you actually do during you career depends on your specialty. Pulm handles thoras and bronchs. GI is great at scopes and paras, ICU gets good with lines and intubations. You can do things like joint injections in clinic if you are comfortable with them. Hospitalists rarely do procedures unless the hospital doesn’t have IR docs.
 
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