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IMG doing rads?

Discussion in 'Radiology' started by jumpman23, Nov 12, 2005.

  1. jumpman23

    jumpman23 Member
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    I am a third year undergrad in the US and I am seriously thinking about leaving for med. school in India this summer.My grades are absolutely horrible, there is not a realistic chance I can get into med. school here.

    How much would it hurt coming from an Indian med. school if I applied for a residency in radiology assuming that I score well on the USLME vs. coming form a Carribean school or a U.S. med school?

    Granted, scoring well is a very big assumption. I know I would be entering an insanely intensive experience in going to med. school overseas, even more so than the difficulties in med. school in the states, but I am viewing this as a second chance and will treat it as such.

    Radiology seems desirable because I am a huge dork when it comes high tech technology, the hours and pay seem to be fantastic. Obviously I haven't been through med. school so my mind will probably change in what specialty I want to do, but this is what I am interested in right now.

    No bashing please, any answers to my question would be great. I am trying to weigh my options on what to do for my future. I am really not interested in D.O. btw. Thanks and take care.
     
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  3. fedor

    fedor gunning like the NRA
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    If you're only a third year, you definitely have time to raise your grades, research, publish, rock the MCATs, and get into an American medical school.

    Are you Indian-American? If not, many PD's will assume the worst when you went to a medical school abroad.

    While the statistics for IMG's in residency slots look promising, keep in mind many of these individuals already finished residency positions in their home country before applying.

    It can be done, by why start out with a few strikes against you on your journey to become a radiologist?

    Good luck whatever you do.
     
  4. jumpman23

    jumpman23 Member
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    I seriously doubt I could get in an American school..my GPA is at 2.65 even after repeating two core science classes, Cell Biology and Gen. Chem II, that I did not pass the first time around.

    I am Indian-American, so going back to India has the pro of connecting back with my heritage as well. Thanks for the help so far.
     
  5. ny skindoc

    ny skindoc Senior Member
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    Some IMGs do get into rads but it will be very highly competitive and I would not count on it.You should only go to school in India if you you would be happy to end up in a Family Practice or IM residency.You might do great in med school and get top board scores and have other options but even then is not a sure thing.Although you are not interested in the DO path,you might look into it as your chances of getting a rads residency will be much greater than the route you are now considering.
     
  6. Shah_Patel_PT

    Physician 10+ Year Member

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    I am a caribbean medical student ..year 3 doing my rotations in the USA. Do you people think it is possible to match into some Diagnostic Radiology program, with above average Step scores and no research experience.
     
  7. ny skindoc

    ny skindoc Senior Member
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    It seems that most years some carib grads do this.Would suggest application to a large number of programs especially focus on places which have taken IMGs in the past.Programs in the midwest,south(Michigan,Louisiana etc) tend to be more likely.Do your homework and apply to the right programs,try to do electives and get to know some people.
     
  8. f_w

    f_w 1K Member
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    Try to stay in the US if you intend to go into rads. Do something to fix your GPA, consider a DO school (just sit through the OMM stuff and keep your eye on the prize). It has become very difficult for IMGs/FMGs to get into rads. I have seen a couple succeed over the last 2-3 years, but all of them had to rely on heavy duty nepotism to do so.
     
  9. f_w

    f_w 1K Member
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    I have to stronly disagree with you on this 'ranking'.

    Over the years, I have encountered a number of osteopaths, plenty of irish and australian grads and even someone from a known caribbean school. To put the mexican schools above the DOs is grossly misleading.
     
  10. gtleeee

    gtleeee D.O. in the E.R.
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  11. ny skindoc

    ny skindoc Senior Member
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    I agree this listing is misleading what its based on I dont know.DO schools are at least equal to the "big three" carib schools in terms of the ability of its grads to compete for entry into allopathic rads based on match lists I have seen- difficult either way.Also its grads can enter DO only rads programs.It would thus seem the DO is a better route than third world med schools for this career goal. http://www.aocr.org/residency/training_programs.html
     
  12. gtleeee

    gtleeee D.O. in the E.R.
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    Just figured it out. Cutts is a St. Eustasis grad. Hence the order of the list. I am sure St. Eustasis is a fine school, but no doubt that explains his priorities per his list.
     
  13. 2muchplanning

    2muchplanning Member
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    In my experiance, at the end of the day - that's the truth. Of the many many family members I have that have gone abroad (India) to do Med Schools the ones that are able to match end up doing so in IM or Peds. Others have tried to match in Rads and are seriously struggling. Last thing you want after all that time and effort is to not be able to do what you want.

    I would agree with the previous posters and perhaps give the DO another look. An MBBS isn't an MD.
     
  14. VentdependenT

    VentdependenT You didnt build thaT
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    you aint gettin into a do school with a 2.65

    anypoops no matter what dr cuts special ranking system is you should go for a USMD school if you don't want an uphill battle for radiology.

    I would go to a DO school (CCOM is a great one) over an overseas carrib school. Proximity to families, choice of electives, ability to go allopathic ande osteopathic match, your peers are generally friendly, some omm, etc. Yes we do have our own radiology residencies. They're fine from what little I know of em.
     
  15. gtleeee

    gtleeee D.O. in the E.R.
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    I get the feeling that Cutts has thought better of his list and would just as soon leave that issue alone. I don't blame him in the least.
     
  16. novacek88

    novacek88 Senior Member
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    This account will answer this thread nicely.

    A close friend of mine is the chief radiology resident at St. Josephs in Phoenix. Dr. Cuts interviewed at this program. This resident is an M.D. from a U.S. allo school. The resident mentioned they interviewed some IMG's but ultimately had to rank them low because of their IMG status. Mind you, I have nothing against IMG's so I asked why they would rank IMG's so low just because they attended a foreign medical school. He/She responded by saying"It may be a little unfortunate but that's the way the world works. People tend to want people that went through the same training they did. That is why U.S. M.D. are preferred first over a DO. But at least a DO student went to school in the U.S. as opposed to buying his way into medical school overseas."

    However, he/she just said their program would realistically consider a qualified DO candidate. He/she also mentioned that the higher ups at his/her program has told them to give serious consideration to DO applicants moreso than they have in the recent past and that they are now supposed to be placed on "equal footing." That should have always been the case but it's not uncommon for programs to discriminate against DO's to some degree. There is the stated policy and then there is the underground policy. So what I'm saying their true underground policy is to now give equal consideration to qualified DO applicants BUT the same is not true for IMG's.

    I get the feeling this resident doesn't believe DO's are equal to U.S. M.D.'s.but there is no question in his/her mind that it is better to attend a DO school than a foreign school as he/she has stated so on numerous occassions. She/He also stated St. Joe's makes no distinction between St. George or St. Christophers when viewing IMG applicants.

    Now remember this is just my account of what this resident said. This may or may not be accurate. If any of you can ascertain the identity of this resident, I suggest you speak to this person yourself to verify this. I don't want him/her accountable for what I said.
     
  17. novacek88

    novacek88 Senior Member
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    I just caught this.

    You won't get into any DO school with a 2.65 so this is sort of a moot point; you don't have an option to even attend a DO school at this point so I think you should attend a foreign school and the do the very best you can.

    Good Luck
     
  18. fishmonger69

    fishmonger69 deadly with a knife
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    i'd suggest taking time here in the states to make yourself look better as an applicant. rock the MCAT, do research at a medical school, get a masters or some other graduate training, etc. what was shocking to me as a first year were the number of students who had NOT gone directly from undergrad to medical school (both at my institution and others that i visited/had contact with) so there is plenty of precendent for getting in following this path. hell, some of my good friends had horrible MCAT scores and less than stellar GPAs but did other activities for a year or two and are now on their way to ortho/ER/rads residencies.

    if you want to do rads or anything remotely competitive, don't settle for going to a school outside the US as it will only get more and more difficult for IMGs to get spots in the future. residency programs don't give a sniff about what you did in undergrad, so work on getting a US medical school spot and then bust your a$$ to get the residency of your choice.
     
  19. novacek88

    novacek88 Senior Member
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    Really, I challenge you to find me one let alone several. I have never heard any program view IMG's >DO. I do know many programs that place them on equal footing. The only people who think some programs who view IMG>DO's are IMG's. The St. Joes is just one example I know. I can tell you that at Loyola in Chicago has the same policy as St. Joes.

    Just look at this thread. How many U.S. allopathic students and physicians have advocated attending a foreign medical school over a DO school. Not one! In all of these DO vs. IMG threads, why is it that U.S. Allopathic grads never suggest that you take the IMG route over the DO?

    Let's apply a little common sense to this situation. After all, if the reason allopathic programs discriminate against DO's is because osteopathic schools are easier to get into, then why would they ever give an IMG preference over a DO when their admissions is even less competitive than osteopathic schools. This is something IMG's including Dr. Cuts can never seem to answer. Even the most anti-DO program director is well aware that it is harder to get into a DO school than any foreign school so it makes no sense why they would ever view IMG>DO. Sorry but you aren't making a lot of sense Cuts.
     
  20. jumpman23

    jumpman23 Member
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    Wow, lots of discussion from the thread I started. This is good.

    One of the reasons I wanted to head overseas is because I am miserable at the undergrad school I am at right now. With the GPA I have, it is so hard to get motivated to study because I honestly feel like I have no shot at a US Allopathic school. If I was overseas, I feel like I would have blank new slate and a second chance at life; if I had this second chance, I feel like I would really prosper. I could deal with the conditions living in a foreign country if I was working my absolute hardest doing doing very well academically.

    Just for your background, here is an article about a student who graduated from the med. school I am looking at at and now is doing his residency at Harvard. Granted, he ended up doing anesthesiology and is probably one of the rare kids that was able to land a top-notch residency as an IMG, it shows that there are opportunities if your at the top of your class. This particular school actually has an alliance with Harvard; they have a program where they send their top 2 seniors out of 150 to Harvard for a 2 month clerkship doing research.

    Although many of you bring up osteopathic schools, it is just not feasible for me to do. Even though it might give me a better shot at a radiology residency, culturally it wouldn't work. All of my family, whether my father, uncles, and aunts from India or my cousins who went to US medical schools here are all M.D's. As stupid as it sounds, I couldn't deal with the shame of being the only D.O. in my vast family.

    After this semester, I am going to really some time and take a hard look at what I should do for my future, weighing out the pros and cons; cutting my losses and going overseas to become an IMG vs. gutting it out here and losing time for an allopathic seat that may not be realistic in the first place. I am trying to get all the comments I from all the sources I can before making a monumental leap in my life. Thanks for all the help so far and keep it coming!
     
  21. novacek88

    novacek88 Senior Member
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    I understand where you are coming from but what about the shame of being an IMG? At least getting into a DO school requires some merit whereas fleeing to India to one of those private schools is a joke. If you come back to the U.S., everyone especially Indians of U.S. origin will know you must have failed in undergrad or been really desperate to go to India for medical school. Do you really think people are that stupid to think you attended medical school in India for "cultural reasons". No one is going to believe that. Everyone knows rich Indian kids who fooled around in college will go to Manipal. Even members of your own family know that you attended school in India because you lacked the grades to get into a medical school in the U.S. If you are really worried about your reputation, it's better to do a post-bac or Masters and get into an allopathic school in the U.S.

    This isn't like 20 years ago where you could attend a medical school in the UK or India and convince people you chose to attend medical school abroad to broaden your horizons.
    People are aware that "Foreign Schools = College Flunkee" Even some old auntie back in India knows that.
     
  22. jumpman23

    jumpman23 Member
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    Just to clarify my status right now in terms of my GPA: I have a 2.65 over 35 credits. I have attempted 65 credits, but managed to not pass Gen. Chem I and II and Cell Biology the 1st time around. I repeated those courses and managed to ge t B's in all of them the second time around. The reason I did so badly was to horrible time management issues and not being happy about the environment of my undergrad. institution. I am really ashamed about it; it hurts just to talk about it on an anonymous message board. :(

    This might give you guys a better perspective to assess my situation.
     
  23. fedor

    fedor gunning like the NRA
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    I would recommend transferring to another undergrad institution.
     
  24. jumpman23

    jumpman23 Member
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    I realize that getting into a D.O. school takes quite a bit of merit compared to a foreign school, I wasn't bashing people who do the D.O. route. I also realize I will be labeled as a failure by my family and others if I attend a foriegn school. To be honest with you, I've been considered inferior to my all my Ivy League cousins for all of my life. That's just something I have to deal with. When I made the comment about "cultural reasons" earlier, I was just pointing out the very few pros that would come with going to a med. school back in India.

    Right now, I am just trying to make the best of my horrid situation, something that I brought upon myself. Hypothetically, do you still feel like it is a bad idea going overseas, graduating from at the top of your class after going through absolute hell, scoring very well on the USLME and then trying to land a radiology residency?
     
  25. gtleeee

    gtleeee D.O. in the E.R.
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    Cutts....First of all ..I think you write rather well. A quick look at some of your posts reflects that. But really...You presented your list as an order of precedence of where you believe graduates are ranked as per competition for radiology residencies. In your list you have D.O. schools at the bottom. Of course it is your opinion, whose opinion would we believe it to be if not yours. I suggested that your order of precedence must be skewed secondary to your having attended St. Eustasis because frankly, the only other explanation would be that you have an appallingly mistaken perception of the order of competition for D.O. and IMG grads competing for radiology slots in MD programs. You were the one that listed ALL Caribbean schools above D.O. institutions as per residency competition. Nothing was mentioned about where one should or should not attend medical school. Nor did I say you believed people should attend St. Eustasis. The only point debated is the validity of your list. Do you really believe that your list is accurate? Smoke screens now about how you meant it only as a personal preference is dodging the obvious issue.) Do you mean to say you now believe your list is NOT accurate and objective advice to the original poster?


    Looking at some of your other posts you show clear and straight forward reasoning and explanations on any number of topics. I imagine you submitted that "List" post without really thinking. I have and continue to make mistakes of that nature all the time. At any rate, good luck to you. From your profile and the nature of other posts I get the feeling that you are probably a pretty good doc and will be a fine radiologist. Just a gut feeling..but probably accurate.) Have a good one..
     
  26. MousseKnuckle

    MousseKnuckle Junior Member
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    Besides techonology, rads is a great choice because you can make a ****load of cash. It is arguably the must buck for your bang in medicine.

    However, I wouldn't turn to a medical school in India. You would be better off moving to a new state, starting over in school and never fessing up to your past undergrad experience. Yes you would be lying on the application, but no they would never find out about it. There isn't some big database that lists where every person went to school.

    Either that or you should try that five year program in Chicago at Finch. I don;t know much about it but basically you pay for an extra year and then get it.

    But, at the same time, let's be realistic. All the people at medical school were able to rock the undergrad stuff. Then only the creme de la creme is able to get into a decent rads program. There may be a po-dunk way out of the way program that excepts substandard applicants but if you want to end up in a nice sized city on the coast or a premier coastal city like NY, SF, or LA, you gotta be able to rock the house in medical school. (at least so I assume, I am still in the shark tank)

    Also, why the big desire to go into Rads. There are a zillion techy careers out there that you could pick from.

    In my final summary, if you HAVE to be a doctor due familial brainwashing or for whatever reason, I would go the Finch route or the SGUs. You could easily get end up in NY/LA/SF if you went gen med, path, FP, psych.
     
  27. novacek88

    novacek88 Senior Member
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    I apologize too if I offended you. There is nothing wrong with going to a foreign school or a DO school. At the same time, people are people and some people just can't deal with the idea that others will look down upon them. I get that. So my advice would be to do a masters or post-bac preferably at the university associated with the allopathic school and retake the MCAT. A lot of people get into allopathic schools this way. It may take you 2-3 years but that shouldn't be a big deal when people start medical school in their 30's.

    But you must be realistic. Everyone going to a foreign school is thinking along the same lines as you. No, they are not people that are just happy to attend medical school that will settle on primary care spots. They are schools full of people like Dr. Cuts who are ambitious and driven. They all want to be the best and prove they are not like a typical IMG grad. They want to finish #1 and rock Step I so they can be the rare IMG who matches in rads or surgery in the states. I think the competition at foreign schools can be more intense than schools in the U.S. because everyone at foreign schools wants to prove themselves. So imagine if you attend a foreign school and then finish average in the class. Then you would really be screwed because then you wouldn't match in rads and you would be stuck doing primary care in some hood in some shady hospital in New York or New Jersey like half the IMG's in this country.

    Go to a U.S. allopathic school. Take 2-3 years off. Work your tail off and get in. Because if you attend a U.S. allo school, you don't have to be at the top of your class to match rads. I'm not saying you don't have to be competitive. But you can be in the top half of your class with great board scores and still match rads coming out of an stateside allo school.
     
  28. jumpman23

    jumpman23 Member
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    Thank all you for your honest advice, I will really take it to heart. I will be keeping in contact as the months progress.
     
  29. daelroy

    daelroy Senior Member
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    Saying you would choose a foreign school over an osteopathic school because you would be embarrassed to be a DO is like saying you would never purchase a Hyundai and then showing up with a new Pinto.

    I don't know how anyone could attend a foreign medical school if they had an option to study in the United States. Why would anyone want to pay more money to live in a third world country or an economically depressed country in Europe such as Ireland and Poland. The teaching and facilities are known to be substandard. And then when they come back to the U.S., they are usually stuck in some dump in Harlem. Let's not forget to include all the hassles related to paperwork and certification. And to top it off, you would have gone through all that so you could match into some internal medicine residency in the ghetto or some family practice residency in Hicktown USA.

    "Yeah, but you still end up with an M.D." except that all your fellow residents, attendings, and nurses know you went to St. Diploma Mill in the West Indies.

    "Yeah, but my patients will never know I'm an IMG." Right, the same patients who never search the internet for their physician's profile on a state database that includes everything about you INCLUDING WHERE YOU WENT TO MEDICAL SCHOOL"

    Yeah, Dr. Cuts matched into radiology. It happens. A couple of DO's match into allopathic dermatology each year too. On average, your chances of matching into a competitive residency is far better as a DO versus an IMG. Don't be fooled by those match lists from St. George and other schools. You have to remember they graduate 400 + students each year since they accept students not once, not twice but THREE times per year. With that many students graduation, I would hope that a few could match into Rads at the very least. Oh yeah, they usually accept about 200 per class too which means that close to 1/3 of their total students in a given year decelerate, drop out or fail. Gotta love those odds :thumbup:
     
  30. macrocyte

    macrocyte Junior Member
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    I think a better analogy is the differnce between buying an imitation rolex (carib MD) or a timex (DO). I went for the imitation rolex, you obviously went for the timex. We both would have rather had the real rolex.
     
  31. novacek88

    novacek88 Senior Member
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    I think a more accurate analogy would be like comparing an Omega (DO) versus a Timex (carib MD). Both would prefer the Rolex but the Omega is a much nicer watch and is at least respectable when compared to the Timex. The Omega costs more than the Timex (harder to get into DO school vs. carib MD).
     
  32. f_w

    f_w 1K Member
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    The timex however will last as long and tell you the time just as well :))
     
  33. ToxicFugu

    ToxicFugu Senior Member
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    OMG, that's rediculous. I knew Rads paid well, but 500k?? Most salary surveys say rads pays btw 300-350. So who'd be willing to dish out 500? Is the job in Alaska or something?

    On another note, do you think we are merely in the midst of a radiology bubble right now? How long do you think the Buck/Bang ratio for radiology will last? I'm a first year US MD student right now. So will the lifestyle/compensation for rads be as good 9 years down the road as it is now?

    Thanks.
     
  34. tsj

    tsj Senior Member
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    Salary surveys greatly understate private practice salary. I'd say double to triple them for what you can expect working in the real world.

    I've seen letters to radiologists offering them jobs at 900K a year in BFE. Remember that is starting. I suppose there are higher ups earning more.
     
  35. Shah_Patel_PT

    Physician 10+ Year Member

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    All these watches can tell TIME! and that is really all that matters to the patient!
     
  36. Vince

    Vince Senior Member
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    If you aren't interested in going to DO school, then you don't leave yourself with many options. But for others interested, I recommend DO school vs. Carribean....you have more options and I think the playing field is getting better with respect to DOs vs. MDs. Either way, you'll need to bust your butt and score well on USMLE to get interviews for Radiology, but its not impossible to get into Radiology as a DO.

    I had less than a 3.0 GPA in undergrad and went to DO school. I studied extremely hard during medical school and worked hard and was able to get into an allopathic radiology residency. I dug out from a deep hole but was able to do it....and I think you should stay in the U.S. if you can.

    Just my 2 cents...good luck.
     
  37. novacek88

    novacek88 Senior Member
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    Can they? If time means the ability to match into radiology then they don't all tell time with equal precision and durability. And that is the point of this thread. If you want to match into radiology, you will have a better chance as a DO versus an IMG for many of the reasons that Vince and the others have mentioned. Besides having osteopathic residencies at your disposal, you will be favored over IMG's at most programs in the United States particularly in the midwest and west coast. Now if this statement offends some of you, I apologize but those are the facts. Most people who I know that go to the Caribbean are ones who couldn't get into a DO school or were able to get into an osteopathic school but really wanted the M.D. behind their name. But even these people would acknowledge that DO's offer advantages over foreign schools in regards to matching into competitive residencies.
     
  38. adeelmd

    adeelmd Junior Member
    5+ Year Member

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    Seriously, what's wrong with you??? WHATEVER YOU DO, STAY IN THE US. I am sorry for being rude but I just want to get my point accross. I went directly from high school (in america) to med school in Asia. I coasted through med school... Pretty much have coasted through my steps as well. what i've realized is that noone gives a **** if you are an img with a 99/99 on your steps. There are so many of us; that it's meaningless. Noone gives a **** if you aced all your class tests in asia, and noone cares how much your busted you but in some indian hospital.

    What they care about is how you do in US hospitals, in a US setting. Even if you go into an osteopathic school, at least you will have american lor's... and you will have opportunities.... (for research, for electives, etc..)

    You are lucky in the fact that you know that you want rads before you are even in med school. You could easily do enough aways and electives in radiology that eventually someone will like you enough to give you a residency regardless of how you did in medical school let alone college.

    Whatever you do, don't leave the US. I had to leave for personal reasons, but I know for a fact that if I had stayed in the US I would have been cancelling radiology interviews now instead of begging for them.
     
  39. macrocyte

    macrocyte Junior Member
    7+ Year Member

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    If you go to a caribbean school you do ALL of your 3rd and 4th year rotations at US hospitals alongside US MD and DO students. The clinical training is equal to the DO training, but you get the coveted MD. Plus you don't have to take any extra tests (Comlex or is it timex??)
     

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