Importance of certain MS1 & MS2 grades for specific specialites?

[Perforin]

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If one is interested in something like Orthopaedic Surgery, do residency programs place a lot of weight on doing well in certain classes as an MS1 and MS2, like during a musculo-skeletal course?

The reason I ask, is that I have done very well in most of my classes (Honors in most MS1 classes, our school just has Honors, Pass, Fail for each class), but the only classes I have not got honors in deal specifically with the Specialty that I am interested in.

Do Residency programs look very closely at each specific MS1 and MS2 class grades that pertain to their specialty, or do they just take a glance at your overall performance over those 2 years and judge you based on that?

 

[Isoprop]

It might be considered but not very heavily. From reading aPD's posts, it seems that PDs look at the overall picture of an applicant instead of focusing on every single detail (unless it's a red flag).

That being said, it MIGHT be A LITTLE more difficult to do well in your surgery rotation if you've been barely passing relevent M1/2 courses.

 

[Perforin]

Just a clarification, I'm not just "barely" passing these courses. I just missed getting the honors grade by about 1% in each class. Which stinks because I get the same P as did somebody who almost failed. Such is life, I suppose. I just hope the residencies I apply to won't count it against me that the few classes I didn't honor deal with the residency I am interested in.

 

[xanthomondo]

Just a clarification, I'm not just "barely" passing these courses. I just missed getting the honors grade by about 1% in each class. Which stinks because I get the same P as did somebody who almost failed. Such is life, I suppose. I just hope the residencies I apply to won't count it against me that the few classes I didn't honor deal with the residency I am interested in.

You honestly sound a little gunnerish in these two posts. I'm going to say if you get a good grade in the rotation that you're interested in with a good, meaningful letter of rec from the department head, residencies really won't care what your gross anatomy grade from MSI was. Especially if you do well on the boards and have AOA.

I don't know though, that's just my guess.

 

[Dral]

Which stinks because I get the same P as did somebody who almost failed.

This is precisely why most residency programs don't put too much weight on MS1 and MS2. Schools grade differently, and they understand that a P means little since, for at my school at example, it means you could have anywhere from a 70% to a 100%.

 

[Perforin]

I'm not gunnerish, and I won't be AOA. I'm never at the top of my classes, and when I do honor a class it is just barely. I am just a constant worrier and can get quite anxious at times, especially when I had friends that didn't match this year and are having to wait a year to reapply to their residency of choice.

That's good advice, though. Probably do well in everything else, and hopefully something like not honoring a basic science course that relates to that specialty won't be important. I'm probably worrying about nothing.

 

[han14tra]

On a related note, what are the "competitive specialities"? I'm considering emergency med and family med right now. Are either of those really competitive? I'm probably not going to get honors unless I rock the final in anatomy. I have an 87% average.🙁 Will it matter?

Also, I want to go back home to do a residency. Most of the hospitals there only seem to have foreign medical residents. Where are all the Americans? Does this mean I'll have no chance at getting a spot as a white American-trained student?

don't mean to do this. Just don't want to start another thread since it's related.

 

[kl323]

I'm not gunnerish, and I won't be AOA. I'm never at the top of my classes, and when I do honor a class it is just barely. I am just a constant worrier and can get quite anxious at times, especially when I had friends that didn't match this year and are having to wait a year to reapply to their residency of choice.

That's good advice, though. Probably do well in everything else, and hopefully something like not honoring a basic science course that relates to that specialty won't be important. I'm probably worrying about nothing.

Umm.. won't the numbers come back when you apply? Yes the programs will only see the letter grades. But in your Dean's letter, don't they indicate the quartiles or thirds that you place into? Well in some ways, I think those who almost honored and those who almost failed will be differentiated...

Not sure if that's true for your school

 

[Perforin]

Umm.. won't the numbers come back when you apply? Yes the programs will only see the letter grades. But in your Dean's letter, don't they indicate the quartiles or thirds that you place into? Well in some ways, I think those who almost honored and those who almost failed will be differentiated...

Not sure if that's true for your school

I wish it were that way. Our school doesn't release ranks at all. They do have AOA, which means they rank the entire class, but they made it VERY clear that they don't release the rankings of the rest of the class, including mentioning if you were in the top half, top third, top quarter, etc...

 

[ChubbyChaser]

On a related note, what are the "competitive specialities"? I'm considering emergency med and family med right now. Are either of those really competitive? I'm probably not going to get honors unless I rock the final in anatomy. I have an 87% average.🙁 Will it matter?

Also, I want to go back home to do a residency. Most of the hospitals there only seem to have foreign medical residents. Where are all the Americans? Does this mean I'll have no chance at getting a spot as a white American-trained student?

don't mean to do this. Just don't want to start another thread since it's related.

family med is not...emergency med is moderately competitive.

And no..it shouldnt.

 

[Dral]

Family Med is probably the least competitive. A Step I of 180 and a pulse would get you into where you wanted to go (joking of course).

But in all seriousness, if you're interested in Family Med, just do your best to gain a good breadth of knowledge and enjoy the ride as much as possible.

 

[studentologist]

The impression I get is that grades from MS1 and MS2 don't mean much other than helping determine class rank and contributing to your overall transcript/GPA. It is also my assumption that good clinical grades and esp a good step1 score make MS1 and MS2 grades a waste of ink on your application. With that being said, I'm sure there is a correlation with MS1/MS2 grades and clinical grades/board scores, and may also show that you're a hard worker if boards and clinical grades don't go as well. I could be wrong tho.

 

[riceman04]

The deans here say M1 & M2 scores are weighted at 2% of your overall score for residency consideration.

There's no AOA here, no honors for first block of M1, and rankings are not released.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

your anxiety will serve you well, if you learn to use it properly

 

[hoqhuuep]

your anxiety will serve you well, if you learn to use it properly

Thanks, darth pinkertinkle.

 

[ZagDoc]

Do Residency programs look very closely at each specific MS1 and MS2 class grades that pertain to their specialty, or do they just take a glance at your overall performance over those 2 years and judge you based on that?

Latter. Even if they were curious, its an apples-to-oranges issue between medical schools. Some schools have integrated curricula, some no longer have cadaveric gross lab, etc, etc.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that your preclinicals grades don't really help you in getting into residency. But if you do poorly on them, they CAN hurt you.

 

[thanecyan]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

 

[ChiDO]

Everything is important in your application for residency. A bad grade here or there will be overlooked if you do well on boards and 3rd and 4th year, but constantly being below average will not help you at all.

Do the best you can, don't be a douche bag to your classmates, and things will fall into place.

It's really easy for PD's at residency programs to filter out applications with GPAs < XXX or Step 1 < XXX, so do the best you can. Furthermore, it's easy to compare applicants with numbers (just like med school apps).

Most "P/F" schools (as well as normal A-B-C or H-HP-P), rank students by their %% either to the students knowledge or behind the scenes. Our dean letter will include your class rank if you are in the top 25%, but if not, it will just give your quartile.

Those worried about missing that Honors by 1% and thus getting a P vs. the person who got a 70% P, your dean letter/transcript will most likely have your percentage listed besides that class as well as the avg/distribution. (Ex. "Biochem - Pass 89% - Avg: 78%). Also, I feel like it would be rare for your dean letter/transcript just to have "Biochem - Pass" as this could end up hurting students from school X when looking for residencies. Schools want to exemplify their best students, while trying not to hurt their bottom 50%. Thus, as in our dean letter, if you are a good student you have your class rank stated, while the bottom half does not.

 

[Perforin]

All schools are different. My school has Honors, Pass, and Fail. Our Dean has showed us several examples of Dean's letters that she has personally written in the past few years, and all it has from the 1st 2 years are the classes you took, and if you got H, P, or F. There is absolutely nothing about rank, or your percentage in that class compared to the average.

That is something I kind of wish I had looked at before going to this particular school.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

All schools are different. My school has Honors, Pass, and Fail. Our Dean has showed us several examples of Dean's letters that she has personally written in the past few years, and all it has from the 1st 2 years are the classes you took, and if you got H, P, or F. There is absolutely nothing about rank, or your percentage in that class compared to the average.

That is something I kind of wish I had looked at before going to this particular school.

Are you sure that there is not a "descriptive adjective" thrown in there that implies your quartile? Something like, "Perforin was an <Exceptional/Excellent/Great/Crappy> student, blah, blah." I know that that's the way a lot of schools convey rank (i.e. they don't just say, "Perforin ranked 123 out of 456 students, blah, blah") -- they all use the same adjectives so that residency programs can determine the quartile from that.....

 

[Perforin]

Are you sure that there is not a "descriptive adjective" thrown in there that implies your quartile? Something like, "Perforin was an <Exceptional/Excellent/Great/Crappy> student, blah, blah." I know that that's the way a lot of schools convey rank (i.e. they don't just say, "Perforin ranked 123 out of 456 students, blah, blah") -- they all use the same adjectives so that residency programs can determine the quartile from that.....

They will say something like "Johnny honored most of his first year classes", but that is all they would really say. They don't really get personal and throw adjectives in there. And trust me, there is nothing about rank. They try to stress that to make the school have a non competitive attitude, which doesn't work because everyone guns for honors anyways. Deans letters here are very business like, and I know because i have personally seen a bunch of her Deans Letters.

 

[Climberak]

Your preclinical years get maybe a paragraph in your Dean's letter. I'd be more focused on crushing the Step I rather than your next block exam (and no, doing well in class does not guarantee a high Step I score).