Importance of undergrad school reputation...

[BRUINGOLD]

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Does anyone know how important the undergrad reputation is to most med schools? A friend of my goes to Cal State right now and is really worried about this. He's doing well in his science courses so I told him not to sweat it.

 

[BlueAvocado]

Hehe sometimes I laugh when people stress about their school not being reputable. Cal State should be just fine. It's when you go to Distance Learning schools like Reagence then you might have to worry a little.

 

[BlackPuma]

overall, had you talked to me last year...I would have said it didn't make a difference at all!!!

however, after the process...it does play a HUGE factor!!!

a lot of pple in my class are from top name schools...and i think out of a 100 students in our class..there is only 1 cal state as opposed to like 60 UCs and 10 or so ivy leagues.....

however, the opposite is true, I have seen very bright students go to cal state, OVER ACHIEVE, and get unbelieveable interviews!!!

😱

so all is not lost...if they have a good score, then their chances are not lost!!!!

 

[Dr. Wall$treet]

your using a total fallacy of logic here.. perhaps more poeple from UCs and IVYS ahd better stats than the cal people so of course there are more of them, nothing to do with the inherent fact that they came from teh IVY or UC

 

[pillowhead]

Don't worry about it! Be confident in who you are. Be able to explaing why you chose your undergrad institution, they ask that regardless of where you went. If you exceed, it doesn't matter where you are. Unless like Dr. Grkovich says, it's some unaccredited distance learning program who found on the internet
I've been to an interview where I was one of two state school people. When other applicants heard we were state people as opposed to going to their wonderful institutions, they basically rolled their eyes and ignored us. But so what? My interviews went fine and I got an acceptance.
I guess I'm trying to say that I think the only people who care are other premeds. And guess what? The adcoms don't give a damn what they think!

 

[SouthernGirl]

I think there was just recently another thread (or several) on this. Try doing a search.

 

[GuesswhozBizzak]

I've heard of the 'Ivy League Bump' that is rumoured to be allocated to the GPA of students graduating from Ivy League's. What if you are coming from Canada? I mean, up here, the admissions process does not take into account at all the school that you came from. In the states, however, do you know whether a school like University of Toronto (coined Harvard of the North) or McGill would be recognized as highly as an Ivy, or higher than another accredited Canadian university like Dalhousie or McMaster?? Is there any experience with the 'bump' affecting Canadian GPA's?

Just a curious northerner.

~JZ

 

[medicnas]

I don't think it makes a difference. Kids from my undergraduate college (which I would guarantee 95% of the people on this board have not heard of) have been accepted to Harvard, Penn, JHU...wherever. A lof of our students go to Jefferson, and there they have a reputation for being the best students in the class, year after year.

And about an "Ivy League Bump" if they actually do that, then it's sad. The really good adcom members know that the Ivys have the worst grade inflation of all institutions of higher education inside the US. Some "wannabe" Ivy's fall prey to this: my friend at Northwestern said that it was a joke to get an A there (3hrs work/week/class, he was a philo/econ double major) b/c they want their students to get into good grad programs. Liberal arts colleges, as a general rule, have lower grade inflation. These two examples just sprang to mind. I believe Carleton has the "truest" C of any school in the US. U. of Chicago also has very low grade inflation.

At least in recent history if you look at the schools people get accepted from, there has been a trend towards diversity (state/Ivy/liberal arts/large private) and a willingness to investigate which GPAs are really worth believing. The most telling thing, however, is to see who "owns" the med school class after the first semester....ask around, you might be surprised.

 

[DW]

do you go to ursinus? i met at least 6 ursinus kids at jefferson......

 

[ShortStuff]

University of Chicago definitly has LOW grade inflation - I think about it everytime I look at my Transcript !

🙂 🙂

 

[medicnas]

Originally posted by DW
do you go to ursinus? i met at least 6 ursinus kids at jefferson......

I graduated from Ursinus last May 🙂 You may have met some of my classmates who are med students. I forget exactly how many are there, but it's a lot (for a 1400 person undergrad college, that is). Since Ursinus draws kids mostly from the surrounding area, NJ, NY, MD and Del. most like to stay in the same area....so Temple, Jeff., PCOM and UMDNJ are big schools for Ursinus grads.

 

[lola]

Originally posted by Dr. Wall$treet
your using a total fallacy of logic here.. perhaps more poeple from UCs and IVYS ahd better stats than the cal people so of course there are more of them, nothing to do with the inherent fact that they came from teh IVY or UC

i don't think this should be the case for gpa if everyone is compared to each other at their respective schools. it is probably true for mcat scores.

 

[An Yong]

Originally posted by GuesswhozBizzak
I've heard of the 'Ivy League Bump' that is rumoured to be allocated to the GPA of students graduating from Ivy League's. What if you are coming from Canada? I mean, up here, the admissions process does not take into account at all the school that you came from. In the states, however, do you know whether a school like University of Toronto (coined Harvard of the North) or McGill would be recognized as highly as an Ivy, or higher than another accredited Canadian university like Dalhousie or McMaster?? Is there any experience with the 'bump' affecting Canadian GPA's?

Just a curious northerner.

~JZ

This is why I think very few schools have such a formal "prestige gpa bump factor" policy... it just gets too complicated, and its hard to draw a line as to which schools get how much of a "bump factor"

Of course, I am sure adcom people (like many people) have an implicit understanding that a gpa from a very prestigious university is slightly more impressive than a gpa from an unknown school... its just not formally stated.

 

[MeganRose]

Originally posted by BRUINGOLD
Does anyone know how important the undergrad reputation is to most med schools? A friend of my goes to Cal State right now and is really worried about this. He's doing well in his science courses so I told him not to sweat it.

I think it undoubtedly has some influence. My undergrad school has an 80% acceptance rate for med school applicants-- I think that this is in part bc med schools know that beyond having a good name, my school prepares its students for the rigors of med school. This is why (from what I've heard) applicants from schools with strong premed programs like Stony Brook would probably be more favorably regarded than applicants from other big names with weaker premed programs. I think I'm definitely getting consideration now at schools that I wouldn't have if I didn't go to a good undergrad school. Talking to friends that were premed but chose to stay in state, I also feel like the workload and demands at Duke prepared me in ways that my friends missed out on.

Still, the bottom line is that the MCAT and interviews are the great equalizers. I think that attending an undergrad with a good rep is the icing on the cake but by no means a deciding (or eliminating) factor in the admissions process. IMO, You gave your friend good advice.

 

[jot]

my friend at Northwestern said that it was a joke to get an A there

dizzam - you're going to give northwestern kids anyeurisms

 

[scootad.]

well, my sister transferred from northwestern midway through her sophomore year to cornell and she felt that getting an A at northwestern was much much easier than an A at cornell. cornell is probably the only ivy with no grade inflation, they do not coddle the students at all. in fact, many fail out.

 

[SistaKaren]

Originally posted by Molybdenum
philosophy and econ majors are jokes in pretty much EVERYWHERE, not just at Northwestern.

I dunno...at Carolina those are both pretty challenging majors (okay, I'm biased about philosophy...I've never taken an econ class, but have many friends who are econ majors and suffer just as much as we pre-meds do)

 

[DW]

i think it matters, but only a little. you can go to any old non top 25 undergrad and get into medical school, as long as you do well in class and the mcats, you'll be fine. Is there a little boost in your application if you go to a top school? To some degree yes, but its not going to make or break your app. At damn near all the interviews I've been at, with my good but not necessarily a 4.0 gpa, they've come right out and said they realize i went to a competitive undergrad and know of our "death curving" as we used call it in college. Now had I had a 2.8 or something, then that just eliminates any extra consideration all together......

While it is impossible to know the grading trends at ALL schools, adcoms probably know the grading trends at the "name" schools. I'd think they'd know the difference between a top 20 school with rampant grade inflation and one with grade deflation (not naming any examples to avoid flames 😛 )

Again, there are kids who get into top schools from the ursinuses and cal state bernandinos of the world, and kids from duke and NW sitting on waitlists. Its only a very small factor in your application 😎

 

[Joe Joe on da Radio]

an important thing to consider in the degree of grade inflation is the average GPAs for students who graduate from a particular school.

for years, stanfords average ugrad GPA was about a 3.6. it's now at a 3.4. however, schools like UC Berkeley and UCLA have had an average ugrad GPA of 3.0.

some food for thought...in terms of what kind of GPA is impressive vs. average at different schools. i think adcoms might have this type of information available to evaluate applicants.

- jj

 

[BRUINGOLD]

Thanks for the feedback, guys! Really helpful info. I emailed my friend the link to this thread.

 

[milesinfinitus]

Originally posted by Joe Joe on da Radio
an important thing to consider in the degree of grade inflation is the average GPAs for students who graduate from a particular school.

for years, stanfords average ugrad GPA was about a 3.6. it's now at a 3.4. however, schools like UC Berkeley and UCLA have had an average ugrad GPA of 3.0.

some food for thought...in terms of what kind of GPA is impressive vs. average at different schools. i think adcoms might have this type of information available to evaluate applicants.

- jj

So if the UCLA or Cal football teams ran an average 40 yd dash in 4.5 seconds and the average Stanford (2-8) player ran an average 4.8 seconds, does that imply that the players from UCLA or Cal aren't running the full 40 yards? or maybe the Stanford times are being inflated? Clearly not. It could be an indication that, on average, the players from Cal and UCLA run faster.

Now, because you see the avg Stanford GPA is higher than elsewhere does that necessarily mean that the gap is due to grade inflation? I think if you went back and checked the avg high school gpa's of people entering these schools, I'm pretty sure that Stanford's would be higher. And I don't think this could be attributed to grade inflation at the high school level. So people who keeping whining about grade inflation at "other" schools should keep the big picture in mind. So what if school A's avg GPA is higher than school B's avg GPA? If you moved the students from school A to school B, their GPA would be even higher.

Before I get flamed, the purpose of this post is not to dog any schools (except maybe Cal) or boast about how great any other school is. I know that there are tons of people at Cal and UCLA that are smarter/better looking (definitely)/more athletic than the folks at Stanford. However, I do want to point out that maybe there is a reason that certain schools are held more favorably in the eyes of admissions committees. Honestly, if you had one spot and 2 applicants, one from random state U (no disrespect) and one from Harvard with everything being equal except where they went to school, whom would you choose?

 

[scootad.]

if their qualifications were truly equal i would pick the applicant from bumblef*ck university because he/she would be less likely to have an arrogant elitist attitude.

 

[lola]

i think y'all are kidding yourselves if you think undergrad reputation doesn't matter. if you are a great candidate from a no-name school then you will be fine. if you are a mediocre candidate from a no-name school competing against mediocre candidates from big-name schools, i think the big-name school candidates will win out most of the time.

 

[Thewonderer]

Originally posted by GuesswhozBizzak
I've heard of the 'Ivy League Bump' that is rumoured to be allocated to the GPA of students graduating from Ivy League's. What if you are coming from Canada? I mean, up here, the admissions process does not take into account at all the school that you came from. In the states, however, do you know whether a school like University of Toronto (coined Harvard of the North) or McGill would be recognized as highly as an Ivy, or higher than another accredited Canadian university like Dalhousie or McMaster?? Is there any experience with the 'bump' affecting Canadian GPA's?

Just a curious northerner.

~JZ

There is definitely an Ivy bump.

It also depends on what you are aiming for in the US. I personally know 3 friends from UBC and Queen's who have 3.95+ GPA and 36+ MCAT who have gotten into Yale, Penn, Wash U, etc. in the US. It all depends on which schools you are aiming at.

 

[Street Philosopher]

Originally posted by Molybdenum
philosophy and econ majors are jokes in pretty much EVERYWHERE,

aneurysm coming... X_X

 

[Joe Joe on da Radio]

Originally posted by milesinfinitus
So if the UCLA or Cal football teams ran an average 40 yd dash in 4.5 seconds and the average Stanford (2-8) player ran an average 4.8 seconds, does that imply that the players from UCLA or Cal aren't running the full 40 yards? or maybe the Stanford times are being inflated? Clearly not. It could be an indication that, on average, the players from Cal and UCLA run faster.

Now, because you see the avg Stanford GPA is higher than elsewhere does that necessarily mean that the gap is due to grade inflation? I think if you went back and checked the avg high school gpa's of people entering these schools, I'm pretty sure that Stanford's would be higher. And I don't think this could be attributed to grade inflation at the high school level. So people who keeping whining about grade inflation at "other" schools should keep the big picture in mind. So what if school A's avg GPA is higher than school B's avg GPA? If you moved the students from school A to school B, their GPA would be even higher.

Before I get flamed, the purpose of this post is not to dog any schools (except maybe Cal) or boast about how great any other school is. I know that there are tons of people at Cal and UCLA that are smarter/better looking (definitely)/more athletic than the folks at Stanford. However, I do want to point out that maybe there is a reason that certain schools are held more favorably in the eyes of admissions committees. Honestly, if you had one spot and 2 applicants, one from random state U (no disrespect) and one from Harvard with everything being equal except where they went to school, whom would you choose?

it was b/c the avg GPA at Stanford was so high (3.6) in the past that the administration had to do something about it...so in the recent years, it's been leveled out at a 3.4. i think it's clear that the administration was trying to curb grade inflation b/c i highly doubt that the quality of students at stanford have been decreasing in the recent years.

 

[zer0el]

milesinfinitus- stanford has grade inflation. period. some med school admissions folk have even told me that stanford is notorious for this, and that they look for stanford grads to have high GPA's to counter their grade inflation. it is much harder to do well at Berkeley than at Stanford.

 

[milesinfinitus]

Originally posted by Joe Joe on da Radio
it was b/c the avg GPA at Stanford was so high (3.6) in the past that the administration had to do something about it...so in the recent years, it's been leveled out at a 3.4. i think it's clear that the administration was trying to curb grade inflation b/c i highly doubt that the quality of students at stanford have been decreasing in the recent years.

Hey,
I don't deny that there's a degree of grade inflation that goes on at Stanford. But what the hell is grade inflation, anyway? And why is it so endemic only to the "big name" schools, while other schools seem to have the moral fortitude to resist such devious practices? Does having easier classes count as grade inflation? If it does then there are alot of schools with low avg gpa's with inflated grades. Why do stanford premeds go elsewhere to take their premed physics? It's f*cking harder here than the places they end up taking it over the summer. I'm sure people aren't flocking to Stanford to get that easy A in organic chem or electricity and magnetism. I, in fact, took E&M at my state university. I don't think people would complain that they have grade inflation there, but that class was ridiculous. On one test, I scored 5X the median and 2X the next highest grade. Obviously I'm not saying I'm 5X smarter than the people there, but I guarantee you had I taken that class at Stanford, Harvard, etc, there's no way that happens. So if you're gonna keep b!tching about grade inflation at Stanford, don't forget about how grades get inflated at other schools due to easier classes and a less competitive cohort. The GPA there doesn't scrutinized there because despite this, the avg remains low.
btw, don't mean to sound like an dingus, but some of this grade inflation bs annoys the hell out of me.

 

[Classof07]

One of the few pro's of attending Johns Hopkins is that schools know that your GPA is real. I have no idea what the average GPA is at Hopkins, but it is low. So graduating with stellar grades actually means something. I can say that now since I already graduated, but it wasn't much consolation while being there.

$0.02

 

[Joe Joe on da Radio]

Originally posted by milesinfinitus
Hey,
I don't deny that there's a degree of grade inflation that goes on at Stanford. But what the hell is grade inflation, anyway? And why is it so endemic only to the "big name" schools, while other schools seem to have the moral fortitude to resist such devious practices? Does having easier classes count as grade inflation? If it does then there are alot of schools with low avg gpa's with inflated grades. Why do stanford premeds go elsewhere to take their premed physics? It's f*cking harder here than the places they end up taking it over the summer. I'm sure people aren't flocking to Stanford to get that easy A in organic chem or electricity and magnetism. I, in fact, took E&M at my state university. I don't think people would complain that they have grade inflation there, but that class was ridiculous. On one test, I scored 5X the median and 2X the next highest grade. Obviously I'm not saying I'm 5X smarter than the people there, but I guarantee you had I taken that class at Stanford, Harvard, etc, there's no way that happens. So if you're gonna keep b!tching about grade inflation at Stanford, don't forget about how grades get inflated at other schools due to easier classes and a less competitive cohort. The GPA there doesn't scrutinized there because despite this, the avg remains low.
btw, don't mean to sound like an dingus, but some of this grade inflation bs annoys the hell out of me.

it's "endemic" to private schools b/c of the huge amounts of funding they get from their alumni donations. look, if you paid >$120,000 in tuition for a bachelors degree, would you want to donate your money in the future to the same school that graduated you with a 2.0 GPA?

 

[Joe Joe on da Radio]

people don't flock to stanford to take those courses b/c not everyone can afford to spend thousands of dollars for 1 or 2 summer classes.

 

[milesinfinitus]

Originally posted by Joe Joe on da Radio
it's "endemic" to private schools b/c of the huge amounts of funding they get from their alumni donations. look, if you paid >$120,000 in tuition for a bachelors degree, would you want to donate your money in the future to the same school that graduated you with a 2.0 GPA?

You're one funny mf. So grade inflation is all part of a grand scheme of schools to elicit donations from alumni? That's f'n genius man. I wish I woulda thought of that one. Actually, i have a better one that goes deeper than that. Private schools inflate grades so that their alumni will be more successful so that they will actually have more money to donate in the future. So not only is college an investment for students, the students are an investment for the colleges. F'n brilliant.

and Joe Joe,
It's true, not everyone is a baller and can afford the summer tuition at a private school. I certainly can't. But even among those that can, they're still going to other schools to boost their gpa's.

 

[Katie]

You would be surprised how differently med schools and fellow med students view your undergraduate institution than does U.S. News. After seeing vast numbers of UC graduates and Ivy Leaguers at my interviews (my state med school included), I was worried at times that my BS from the University of Maryland (College Park, the campus w/ the b-ball team and way too many students) would be viewed as a joke in comparison. Not true, unlike pillowhead, a number of interviewees came up to me and asked when I graduated from Maryland and commented on what a nice school it was and how pretty the campus was (not really relevant here, but it is at least positive feedback). Not one interviewer was condescending about UMCP, and I was accepted at 2 schools, 1 top 50. The average overall GPA at UMCP is about a 3.15 (not so different from Cal and UCLA) due to the fact that it has one of the toughest and best engineering programs on the East Coast, nationally respected chem professors, and a top 25 business school that is a competitive program with an extensive application process and minimum requirements at the end of sophomore year. I don't want to brag, but I felt very well-prepared for most med school classes after college.

All I have to say is do NOT hesitate to apply as a state school applicant as long as your stats are average or above (i.e. 3.4+, 27+ MCAT). Almost every pre-med I know with decent stats from UMCP got in on the first try (or if not, the second). Nearly every year, UMCP sends grads to Harvard, JHU (big fav. among Maryland grads, and #4 represented school in JHU's entering class ), Duke, Penn, Maryland (#1 represented school among each entering class), MCV/VCU (about 5-10 UMCP grads, mostly MD residents, go here every year), MCP/Drexel, USUHS, GW, Tufts, Finch/CMS, UVA, EVMS, Penn State, NYMC, and Howard. For those wondering about my stats (I know someone will ask), they were not high, 3.62 and 29 MCAT, white female. please don't misinterpret this, I'm just trying to show that state schools other than UCB or UCLA are NOT the kiss of death.

Other well-respected state schools for undergrad in no particular order: U Michigan, U of Virginia, UNC-Chapel Hill, University of Texas-Austin, UC-Davis, UCSD, University of Washington, University of Minnesota-Twin Cities, Penn State, U of Illinois-Urbana-Champaign, UC-Santa Barbara, UC-Santa Cruz, UCLA and Berkeley (as mentioned before), University of Wisconsin-Madison, University of Delaware, Ohio State, Michigan State, University of Arizona, Indiana University, University of Florida, and UMass-Amherst. so people have plenty of options. anyone else want to add any others

 

[kam730]

Originally posted by milesinfinitus
[ On one test, I scored 5X the median and 2X the next highest grade. Obviously I'm not saying I'm 5X smarter than the people there, but I guarantee you had I taken that class at Stanford, Harvard, etc, there's no way that happens.


Maybe I am just reading in wrong, but if you scored 5x the median, then even if you got a 100% then the median was a 20%!!! I am confused, that just sounds absurd. Another thing I am curious about, how does one define grade inflation? Most of the classes I have taken at my univ. don't curve, but a couple have. For example, my last physio test had a 53% avg. so the prof curved it to a 73% avg. I assume that counts as grade inflation, am I right? I was under the impression that at least some classes at almost all universities curve. Just curious.

 

[milesinfinitus]

I agree, there are plenty of qualified applicants from public/private/big name/not so big name/blah blah blah whatever schools. If you are hesitant about applying to schools because you think you're school is inadequate in some way, then you got a whole 'nother set of issues to deal with. Just f'n apply and if some adcom doesn't like you b/c of your school, then f*ck them. You wouldn't wanna go to that ****hole anyway.

I didn't mean to disrespect any schools (except Cal) in any way, but I felt the need to respond to certain individuals whose opinions of Stanford's grade inflation were misguided (or at least I thought so).

and to kam730, the median on that test was b/w 10 and 20 and i got a 97. Obviously, the teacher was partly at fault with the test or a deficiency in teaching the students, but still, u fill the rest of the class with Stanford kids, that **** doesn't happen.

 

[care bear]

actually, i tend to agree with milesinfinitus.
it really bothers me that people talk so much about grade inflation at top schools. but here in new haven, *everyone* who's here, everyone who's in science classes, is such a perfectionist. people just work really, really, really, really hard! and in my experience, i took a bunch of premed requirements at a state school in NC (NC State) cause i was living with my parents for the summer- and yeah. it was just so much easier. not that it was a joke; in fact it was the way i tend to think classes should be- challenging but straightforward.
but seriously. even if 80% of students in a given science class @ my school score somewhere between a and b minus, it's cause *everyone is
psychotic* 🙂 seriously! everyone wants to get an a so badly, and they work for it, and so i think it's fair that that hard work is rewarded.
dont' get me wrong, i know i have no reason to whine; i'm thankful that med schools do seem to take this into account ; i just wanted to reinforce the idea that they take it into account for a reason!
whew, just my two cents 😛

 

[Joe Joe on da Radio]

Originally posted by milesinfinitus
You're one funny mf. So grade inflation is all part of a grand scheme of schools to elicit donations from alumni? That's f'n genius man. I wish I woulda thought of that one. Actually, i have a better one that goes deeper than that. Private schools inflate grades so that their alumni will be more successful so that they will actually have more money to donate in the future. So not only is college an investment for students, the students are an investment for the colleges. F'n brilliant.

and Joe Joe,
It's true, not everyone is a baller and can afford the summer tuition at a private school. I certainly can't. But even among those that can, they're still going to other schools to boost their gpa's.

i never said it was a grand scheme of sorts...the question i posed was actually hinting at what you said yourself, that good grades = happy students, happy students w/ good grades = successful professionals, successful professionals = generous donations.

please chillout b/c nobody is in the least bit insulting the hard work your putting in for your A's at stanford...don't take it so personally b/c grade inflation at private schools is a nationally recoginized issue right now.

-jj

 

[Bodybuilder]

Originally posted by milesinfinitus
I agree, there are plenty of qualified applicants from public/private/big name/not so big name/blah blah blah whatever schools. If you are hesitant about applying to schools because you think you're school is inadequate in some way, then you got a whole 'nother set of issues to deal with. Just f'n apply and if some adcom doesn't like you b/c of your school, then f*ck them. You wouldn't wanna go to that ****hole anyway.

I didn't mean to disrespect any schools (except Cal) in any way, but I felt the need to respond to certain individuals whose opinions of Stanford's grade inflation were misguided (or at least I thought so).

and to kam730, the median on that test was b/w 10 and 20 and i got a 97. Obviously, the teacher was partly at fault with the test or a deficiency in teaching the students, but still, u fill the rest of the class with Stanford kids, that **** doesn't happen.

I took a summer class at Foothill for Electricity & Magnetism back in 2001 and am from UCLA. The class was filled with Stanford students and although I will make no claim about scoring 5x above the mean - I did ruin the curve for them. I don't know where you claim to have scored 5x above the mean (you seem to imply Cal or UCLA), but I know from experience that, that shiz isn't going to happen at either of those schools.

I on the other hand don't disagree with your explanation of the average student at Stanford being slightly more akin to the UCLA track star. But what I do think is faulty is your assumption that if you transferred the students to either Cal or UCLA, you would increase the GPA. This simply isn't true, because both schools grade on curves shifting their averages to 3.0 no matter if the test average is slightly higher or not.

Regards,
B

 

[mattie113]

well... i am a 5th year senior at Arizona State (you know, the harvard of the southwest... 😛 ) and if i can get into a top ten school then anyone can. (i did) in other words, i seriously doubt the reputation of your undergrad school makes any diff.. i should know because i do go to one of the least respected undergrad institutions in the country (but the best party school...). in any case, i wouldnt have done anything differently, especially for 'prestige'

 

[scootad.]

i doubt arizona state is one of the least respected undergrad institutions in the country. it kinda bugs me when people think that anything other than a usnews ranked institution is poorly respected. there are plenty of city universities (e.g. CUNYs) in this country that are much poorer in education quality. and just because students at a school like to have a little fun doesn't mean the school is no good.

 

[medicnas]

I think that the biggest motivation for schools to inflate is to maintain their "rank," which in part is based upon their graduates acceptances for grad/professional school. It's a weird cycle: they inflate grades to give their kids a high GPA to apply to good schools (and get in) which in turn makes them look better (higher grad acceptance rates to prestigious universities) which makes their "rank" higher which gets them more monies and more prestige which allows them to recruit more selective students (who are so smart that they shouldn't have to inflate at all).

That's a lot of "which"s (where my whiches is at...where my whiches is at....I had a long day) and probably the longest sentence since that huge one in "Death in the Afternoon...." or whatever that book was.

PS: Philosophy and Econ are not always easy majors (they were very hard majors at Ursinus). Philosophy gets a reputation worse than it deserves. Econ ought to be hard everywhere...but I guess it depends on how hardcore they are into their econometrics. Try taking econ at U. of Chicago...LOL...it would be like having God for your ethics class. BTW: premed is nuts hard at NU...I know a guy there who are HPME....but I guess based on what I've heard I wouldn't vote for econ/philo being that tough there. Didn't mean to give anybody an aneurysm. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Oh, and one more thing: WHO LET THE DOGS OUT...WHO...WHO WHO WHO.....

Wow, I feel so much better now.

 

[PluckyDuk8]

Ok, as somebody who has been through premed at NU...Some enjoy and take pride at weeding us out, but most of the professors are very helpful otherwise. My last quarter's gen chem prof after the final said he designed it to separate "the men from the boys." Everything at NU revolves around the curve, and sometimes diff profs set them differently. I took two summers of premed recs, (which is very popular to do), and I think that helped me tremendously both in terms of my sanity and my grades. BTW, I don't think that my orgo prof is pondering raising the student body's gpa for the sake of increasing NU's rank when deciding upon his curve. And econ is the most popular major at NU, but I have no clue how easy/hard it is (other than the fact that ppl hate taking micro).

 

[pillowhead]

Why do people assume that everyone who goes to State U couldn't get into ivys? For me and most of my friends coming from high school, MONEY was the biggest factor in deciding where to attend. Getting Hopkins and Duke acceptances is thrilling, but come one, I wasn't going into ridiculous amounts of debt knwoing i wanted to go to grad or med school. So I don't know why with all things being equal, State U wouldn't get in and Ivy would if they're inherently of equal intelligence. Perhaps the State U kid had practical things to worry about, like paying for college. And besides, the state U kid probably had to be more dedicated to get where they are b/c at least at my school of 45,000, we have one stinking premed advisor! The idea of a premed committee or seeing an advisor to register for classes? Now that's laughable.

 

[banannie]

Originally posted by pillowhead
Why do people assume that everyone who goes to State U couldn't get into ivys? For me and most of my friends coming from high school, MONEY was the biggest factor in deciding where to attend. Getting Hopkins and Duke acceptances is thrilling, but come one, I wasn't going into ridiculous amounts of debt knwoing i wanted to go to grad or med school. So I don't know why with all things being equal, State U wouldn't get in and Ivy would if they're inherently of equal intelligence. Perhaps the State U kid had practical things to worry about, like paying for college. And besides, the state U kid probably had to be more dedicated to get where they are b/c at least at my school of 45,000, we have one stinking premed advisor! The idea of a premed committee or seeing an advisor to register for classes? Now that's laughable.

Why do people always assume that those who go to Ivy's are elitist snobs who don't have concerns about money? My experience was the exact opposite of yours: my Ivy college gave me the BEST financial aid package. I paid less for college than I would have had to pay at a state school. I graduated with only about $4000.00 in loans, in contrast to my boyfriend who went to Penn State, and owes many times that!

It's really a shame that a lot of high school students, worried about money, don't even bother applying to top private schools. The truth is, MANY of these schools will come through for you, and give you 100% of your demonstrated need, often in the form of grants, rather than loans.

But anyway, as for grade inflation, I just don't know what to say. My personal experience: I worked extremely hard in my 2nd semester physics class, at my Ivy which may have the worst reputation for grade inflation, and got a B-. Two months later, I took the MCAT and scored a 15 on the physical sciences section. So I personally do not feel my grades were ever inflated in science classes. I just think I was surrounded by a lot of really, really smart people.

I agree with the person who made the point that science classes at Ivy's are less straightforward. As an undergrad, I only had one science class that had multiple choice tests. Most classes tested you not on whether you knew the material, but on whether you could critically analyze and apply the material. So I think the fact that so many people got A's cannot be explained simply by "grade inflation." When professors create really difficult exams, and many people still do extremely well on them, that is not grade inflation. In my opinion, setting a curve that lowers people's grades would be artificial and ridiculous.

EDIT: I forgot to note that I do not think that people at private schools are smarter or better in any way than people at state schools. I just wrote the comments above to demonstrate that grade inflation is very complicated, and I just get tired of being told that my grades are higher than I deserve. Also, I disagree with judoka's comments, below, 100%, so please do not think that most people share his/her opinions.

 

[saiyagirl]

wow, there are a LOT of northwestern wildcats here. who else here is from NU?

btw, i'm an econ major at NU and it's not easy, though i doubt it's as challenging as computer science or something. Philosophy is HARD though once you get up to the upper levels, man oh man.

most science classes at NU i think are graded pretty fairly, and few science grades are inflated. the class average is usually a B-/B, and might be even lower in the year long biology sequence that most premeds take--unless they took it over the summer at harvard, which EVERYONE at northwestern seems to do nowadays.

 

[judoka]

Are you kidding me? Ivy league schools are alot better than state ones. I went to amherst college, which is also better than states schools, and I have taken classes at u of maryland. No doubt, premed at an ivy is harder and more fulfilling. The fact is, going to an ivy is a disadvantage for most students because the do far worse here than they would at a state school. That's why we get the bump up. I go to cornell, which is mad hard. The kids who go here were the top of their classes, even the ones that get c's, so it's fair that our gpa's get weighted more. I took princeton review with state school kids over the summer. These ******s couldn't get more than a 22 on their MCAT but their gpa's were all 3.7's and up. Who are you kidding? I had a 3.4 and my mcat's were higher than my teachers there. Med schools are not stupid, they know that being at an ivy is far harder. You can justify to yourself why you feel things are as such, but you would be hard pressed to convince anyone who has ever compared the two types of students.

 

[Joe Joe on da Radio]

Originally posted by judoka
Are you kidding me? Ivy league schools are alot better than state ones. I went to amherst college, which is also better than states schools, and I have taken classes at u of maryland. No doubt, premed at an ivy is harder and more fulfilling. The fact is, going to an ivy is a disadvantage for most students because the do far worse here than they would at a state school. That's why we get the bump up. I go to cornell, which is mad hard. The kids who go here were the top of their classes, even the ones that get c's, so it's fair that our gpa's get weighted more. I took princeton review with state school kids over the summer. These ******s couldn't get more than a 22 on their MCAT but their gpa's were all 3.7's and up. Who are you kidding? I had a 3.4 and my mcat's were higher than my teachers there. Med schools are not stupid, they know that being at an ivy is far harder. You can justify to yourself why you feel things are as such, but you would be hard pressed to convince anyone who has ever compared the two types of students.

these ******S couldn't get more than a 22...?!?

wow, and some people wonder where the elitist snob thing comes from...

 

[medicnas]

Judoka:

You're wrong 🙂 Feel free to disagree...but it won't change the facts that you're quite horribly incorrect.

Also, I sincerely hope that you're not trying to say that Amherst is an Ivy League school! If you go to Cornell now (presumably for grad/med school) then you are attending an Ivy.

For those who may not know: an Ivy League institution is one that is a member of the Ivy League Athletic Conference. The following is a complete and accurate list of ALL of the Ivy league schools:

Princeton
Harvard
Yale
Columbia
Dartmouth
Brown
Penn
Cornell

Although "Ivy League" has a CONNOTATION, it's DEFINITION is quite different.


Re: Cost and school choice
Before I chose a college I spoke to ~45 physicians regarding what I should do for college. I had been accepted to every school I applied to (except Harvard 🙁 )...this list included: NU, WashU, Penn, U of I (honors prog), and JHU...oh, and Ursinus 🙂 The unanimous opinion, from people who had gone to all of these places (and more) was to go to Ursinus. Why? Ursinus offered me a full tuition scholarship, research money, a dedicated research advisor and myriad opportunities to personally interact with faculty...the rest offered me 35k a year in tuition and a recognized name (since my family falls into that huge gap of Americans who make too much for need based financial aid and not enough to shell out 40k a year for college). Every single doctor I talked with said that where I went made no difference (or such a small difference that it didn't justify the debt) for medical school that it would be foolhardy to invest any more into my education than I had to. Some of these people were still paying back their undergrad/med school debts. Honestly, med school will cost 200k...there's no reason to pile another 150 on top of that for an education that may only be marginally better.

I'm of the opinion that one's college education is what he/she makes of it. I loved Penn when I visited there, but I just couldn't justify the cost. After talking to a few Penn grads I believe that I made the right decision. Going to an Ivy does not guarantee a wonderful education just like going to a less known school or state school doesn't make you an "idiot." If you're not willing to get to know the profs, take full advantage of your classes and work your butt off you're going to be a substandard physician regardless of whether your college diploma says Harvard or State U. Honestly, if you choose a school for the name only you're making the wrong decision.

Bottomline:
Medicine is one of the few (maybe only) professions left that doesn't care where you attended undergrad (and med school too(unless you're an academic...and even then it's sketchy)). Take advantage of that and choose the cheapest school that you like the most. Don't make the mistake of correlating quality of education with the reputation of the school or the quantity of funds required to obtain a degree....10 years from now you might be kicking yourself for spending 30k a year when the other MDs in your department (who elected to go to State U) have 0 debt and the same job 🙂

 

[UCLA2000]

Here's the bottom line. The undergrad school you attend matters bigtime. During my interviews I noticed that as I got into the top 10 schools, the caliber of school increased. During my ivy league interviews, most of the other people were from Harvard, Yale, Duke etc.

Your Cal State friend has a decent shot of getting into A medical school, but they should apply to alot of schools.

 

[Sage144]

I agree.

Where you went to college is a huge determining factor in shaping both your academics and who you are as a person. Academics ARE harder at ivy league schools -- if they weren't, ivy leagues would not have the reputation they do. While money and privilege might be a reason why/how some students get into them, most of the students get in because of merit, and the consistency of this hard work, drive, and motivation (provided they did well at their institution) must be reassuring med schools. people work their butts off to get into these schools, and i can't believe that people are discrediting that fact. That is selflish and unbelievable.

and just to rest the grade "inflation" issue: inflation occurs in the humanities, not very often in the hard sciences. I know people who went to ivys, pulled C+'s in physics by working HARD and then take summer courses at other state schools and come out with A+'s in the same courses. although this is an extreme case, there isn't very much continuity in grading systems between two schools of different reputation.

while med schools are looking for high stats and gpas and are so concerned about "reputation" wouldn't you assume they are also looking for reputation in terms of ungrad institution? (not supposed to be derisive in tone, but rather a valid question)