jackets5

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Do you guys think it is important for doctors to be physically fit? I think it is very important. how can we tell a patient that he/she needs to lose weight or be at risk for heart disease, diabetes etc. if we are fat ourselves. I also think doctors shouldnt smoke cigarettes as it is probally the most dangerous, disgusting thing anyone can do. My thing is how can you expect a patient to really listen to your advice if you cant do the correct things in your own life.
 

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i think it is important. patients look to doctors for advice and counseling. we need to provide a good example for others to follow.
 

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I was told by staff, during SMEP, that overweight interviewees do not do well. Not sure if this is widely spread amongst the medical school community.
 
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jackets5 said:
Do you guys think it is important for doctors to be physically fit? I think it is very important. how can we tell a patient that he/she needs to lose weight or be at risk for heart disease, diabetes etc. if we are fat ourselves. I also think doctors shouldnt smoke cigarettes as it is probally the most dangerous, disgusting thing anyone can do. My thing is how can you expect a patient to really listen to your advice if you cant do the correct things in your own life.
i think so and ive talked about it in my app and interviews. they can smoke as long as patients dont know--ignorance is bliss. smoking has gone on for centuries, i guess its just appealing, rationality aside. but id say most docs are not in great shape themselves. the whole role model thing is forgotten, its very do as i say not as i do.

+i think the app should include a section for mile running time, bench press, and who knows what else. notarized, maybe. it would be an interesting twist
 

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I think that it is important, particularly for US as upcoming MDs and given the current trends in health of the average citizen, for doctors to not only provide good examples for others, but to really stress the importance of preventative medicine. Can you imagine the incredible relief on the health care system that would occur if every man, woman, and child in the country achieved minimum level of physical exercise and proper nutrition, and slapped on some sunscreen every so often? Type II diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure, cardiac disease, melanomas, contagious diseases . . . instances of all would drop dramatically and the financial savings would be astronomical. Truly one of the largest problems facing health care nowadays, laying aside the insurance issues and access problems of which we are all aware, is the implementation of health care as a primarily reactive process rather than a preventative one. I, for one, plan on doing everything I can to change this paradigm when I practice in the future.
 

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yes, it is very important, im surprised at the amount of doctors i have seen that are overweight, smoke, drink (heavily), etc.
u would think that someone who has spent the last 4 yrs learning about their body would know how to take care of themselves...
 

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jtank said:
yes, it is very important, im surprised at the amount of doctors i have seen that are overweight, smoke, drink (heavily), etc.
u would think that someone who has spent the last 4 yrs learning about their body would know how to take care of themselves...
If you worked the kind of schedule that many doctors do and were under that kind of stress, you would not be so surprised. :idea: In an ideal world, sure, it would be great if we all did exactly what we should be doing for optimal health. And there's certainly nothing wrong with encouraging people, including health professionals, to improve their health habits. I'll even agree that an overweight doctor has less moral authority than a fit one does if s/he's trying to persuade others to change their habits. But it's not like all of your noncompliant patients are going to suddenly start listening to your advice just b/c you yourself are fit. People just don't believe that the complications of tobacco addiction or uncontrolled diabetes could ever happen to THEM.
 

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Considering the workload and stresses of the job, eating meals on the go etc. I am not surprised that many doctors aren't fit.

Finding time for working out is something that is done if it is a priority.
 

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seilienne said:
I think that it is important, particularly for US as upcoming MDs and given the current trends in health of the average citizen, for doctors to not only provide good examples for others, but to really stress the importance of preventative medicine.
Before you emphasize this word during one of your interviews and have your interviewer suddenly frown at you, it's preventive medicine, not preventative...

I made this mistake on my personal statement and slap myself in the face at least once a day for doing so. :p
 

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Labslave said:
Before you emphasize this word during one of your interviews and have your interviewer suddenly frown at you, it's preventive medicine, not preventative...

I made this mistake on my personal statement and slap myself in the face at least once a day for doing so. :p
ive seen it both ways, i use preventive bc its shorter. i suspect both may be appropriate, some words are like that. dunno for sure though, definitely a commonly used word around here though.

how do docs decide how much they work each week? this is something ive never asked. usually ppl will cite numbers like 60 hours, 80 hours, 100 hours or who knows. but where do these numbers come from? do docs have no say in their workload? why not work them every waking hour? why cant they demand 40 hour workweeks and accept the lesser pay accordingly? who exactly is calling the shots? why arent docs in control of their destinies? hmm i had to get a little philosophical with it ha. red pill or blue pill you know?
 

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Kind of reminds me of something I did a few months ago. Before McDonalds cut off the super size option, I kept the cardboard holder for the super sized fries and kept the super sized drink. I am going to use it as an example for my patients about the hazards of fast food, especially large portions.
 

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Jon Davis said:
Kind of reminds me of something I did a few months ago. Before McDonalds cut off the super size option, I kept the cardboard holder for the super sized fries and kept the super sized drink. I am going to use it as an example for my patients about the hazards of fast food, especially large portions.
speaking of which, thats a perfect example of markets responding to consumer demands for healthier food. its the consumers who determine production and their fates. not the Man. but thats for another thread.
 

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Shredder said:
ive seen it both ways, i use preventive bc its shorter. i suspect both may be appropriate, some words are like that. dunno for sure though, definitely a commonly used word around here though.

how do docs decide how much they work each week? this is something ive never asked. usually ppl will cite numbers like 60 hours, 80 hours, 100 hours or who knows. but where do these numbers come from? do docs have no say in their workload? why not work them every waking hour? why cant they demand 40 hour workweeks and accept the lesser pay accordingly? who exactly is calling the shots? why arent docs in control of their destinies? hmm i had to get a little philosophical with it ha. red pill or blue pill you know?
You can't have a say during residency but after that you COULD be selective in choosing a job that would only work 40 hours a week.

However, most people want nice things and the more hours you work the more $$$ you make.
 
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Labslave said:
Before you emphasize this word during one of your interviews and have your interviewer suddenly frown at you, it's preventive medicine, not preventative...
Dang, thanks for the heads up!

"pre·ven·tive Audio pronunciation of "preventative" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-vntv) also pre·ven·ta·tive (-t-tv)
adj.

1. Intended or used to prevent or hinder; acting as an obstacle: preventive measures.
2. Carried out to deter expected aggression by hostile forces.
3. Preventing or slowing the course of an illness or disease; prophylactic: preventive medicine; preventive health care."

I guess colloquially "preventative" is fine but "preventive" seems to be the standard phrase in the biz, as it were.
 

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BrettBatchelor said:
You can't have a say during residency but after that you COULD be selective in choosing a job that would only work 40 hours a week.

However, most people want nice things and the more hours you work the more $$$ you make.
its the 2nd point you make that i was thinking about. docs who are free of residential shackles should not be sacrificing health concerns for dollars. slogging to make more money is a pretty primitive way of amassing wealth. its very linear, doesnt scale up well.
 

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Shredder said:
ive seen it both ways, i use preventive bc its shorter. i suspect both may be appropriate, some words are like that. dunno for sure though, definitely a commonly used word around here though.

how do docs decide how much they work each week? this is something ive never asked. usually ppl will cite numbers like 60 hours, 80 hours, 100 hours or who knows. but where do these numbers come from? do docs have no say in their workload? why not work them every waking hour? why cant they demand 40 hour workweeks and accept the lesser pay accordingly? who exactly is calling the shots? why arent docs in control of their destinies? hmm i had to get a little philosophical with it ha. red pill or blue pill you know?

Probably because A) everyone's patient problems don't fit into a 40-hour week, especially if you're a PCP (probably they do for certain specialties) and patients want to come to you specifically because you know their situation best. For B), I need a calculator. But let's assume that there are 120 (wo)man hours for a set job. Why would you pay 3 people at 40 hours each when you could get 2 to do it at 60 hours each? Especially if they are salaried and not hourly, which I'm guessing is what most doctors are.

Could you get all the doctors to come together and say, "we want 40 hour work weeks"? I guess theoretically, but it would never happen. For many people, being a doctor is a way of life, not a job, and it's not about getting out at 5 in time to eat dinner before House or ER.
 

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There is a huge difference between being or looking overweight and your fitness level. Professional (not retired) sumo wrestlers are obese but some of the most fit and healthy people in the world because they work out like 8 hours a day. Actual scientific data (I'll dig it out from my lecture notes if you're really interested) shows that an obese person that exercises (is physically fit) a lot is as healthy or healthier than a thin person who doesn't exercise (isn't fit). So how are med schools supposed to tell who's fit just by looking at them? I second the (notarized) physical fitness testing, just like in middle school =)

Also, I think a guy can be more overweight than a girl and get away with it, whereas she'll come off as "fat" <---- sexism.
 

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WholeLottaGame7 said:
Probably because A) everyone's patient problems don't fit into a 40-hour week, especially if you're a PCP (probably they do for certain specialties) and patients want to come to you specifically because you know their situation best. For B), I need a calculator. But let's assume that there are 120 (wo)man hours for a set job. Why would you pay 3 people at 40 hours each when you could get 2 to do it at 60 hours each? Especially if they are salaried and not hourly, which I'm guessing is what most doctors are.

Could you get all the doctors to come together and say, "we want 40 hour work weeks"? I guess theoretically, but it would never happen. For many people, being a doctor is a way of life, not a job, and it's not about getting out at 5 in time to eat dinner before House or ER.
everyones problems dont fit into a 60, 80, or 100 hour week either. not even in a 24*7 hour week. where do you draw the line? why not draw it shorter? screw the patients, they can wait or see someone else. that sounds harsh, but restaurants and stores close even when some customers want to use them, right? maybe if someones life was on the line but thats rarely the case, especially depending on the specialty. PCP will virtually never face that, and certainly not nonstop for 60 hours or whatever number. why pay 2 ppl for 60 when you can pay 1 for 120?

labor unions are bad, i dont support. docs already basically have it in the form of the AMA.

(wo)man is unnecessary, PC run amok
studentstudent said:
There is a huge difference between being or looking overweight and your fitness level. Professional (not retired) sumo wrestlers are obese but some of the most fit and healthy people in the world because they work out like 8 hours a day. Actual scientific data (I'll dig it out from my lecture notes if you're really interested) shows that an obese person that exercises (is physically fit) a lot is as healthy or healthier than a thin person who doesn't exercise (isn't fit). So how are med schools supposed to tell who's fit just by looking at them? I second the (notarized) physical fitness testing, just like in middle school =)

Also, I think a guy can be more overweight than a girl and get away with it, whereas she'll come off as "fat" <---- sexism.
there are more ways to judge health than fat: skin tone, muscle tone, face, gait, energy level. guys certainly have more leeway in terms of girls. thats just tradition, will never change. notarized testing would be solid.
 

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"PC, M.D. How Political Correctness is Corrupting Medicine" is sitting on my shelf unread as we speak. T-day weekend reading, perhaps?
 

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Shredder said:
everyones problems dont fit into a 60, 80, or 100 hour week either. not even in a 24*7 hour week. where do you draw the line? why not draw it shorter? screw the patients, they can wait or see someone else. that sounds harsh, but restaurants and stores close even when some customers want to use them, right? maybe if someones life was on the line but thats rarely the case, especially depending on the specialty. PCP will virtually never face that, and certainly not nonstop for 60 hours or whatever number. why pay 2 ppl for 60 when you can pay 1 for 120?

labor unions are bad, i dont support. docs already basically have it in the form of the AMA.

(wo)man is unnecessary, PC run amok
there are more ways to judge health than fat: skin tone, muscle tone, face, gait, energy level. guys certainly have more leeway in terms of girls. thats just tradition, will never change. notarized testing would be solid.
I agree. If you want to be on call 24/7/365 for you patients then go for it.
A pt will always be able to see someone at anytime even if it isn't you.

I would like to have some separation between work and leisure time. Its all personal preference.
 

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Shredder said:
slogging to make more money is a pretty primitive way of amassing wealth. its very linear, doesnt scale up well.
Finally, someone sees my point of view. I mentioned this in another thread a while ago about docs and whether 30k was enough. It is a well known thread. Anyway, no one shared with me this point of view. Wealth is HARDLY created by working for it. The cliche has a ring of truth; docs are clueless when it comes to business. I hope our generation can change that.
 
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what about recreational drug use? i've heard of med students who are total potheads...
 
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seilienne said:
"PC, M.D. How Political Correctness is Corrupting Medicine" is sitting on my shelf unread as we speak. T-day weekend reading, perhaps?
i read that a few months ago. i forgot the specifics of it but i guess its influenced me subconsciously somehow. it was an all right read, somewhat forgettable but maybe bc i read it fast. some things rang true to a pre-allo, others would probably hit closer to home to med students or docs. its doable in a weekend, short easy read.

hmm looking through the thread, i dont see how this came up? coincidence that ive read it though, makes me feel well read. ooh, (wo)man haha...yeah the wikipedia article on PC is good, made me laugh
Jon Davis said:
Finally, someone sees my point of view. I mentioned this in another thread a while ago about docs and whether 30k was enough. It is a well known thread. Anyway, no one shared with me this point of view. Wealth is HARDLY created by working for it. The cliche has a ring of truth; docs are clueless when it comes to business. I hope our generation can change that.
agreed, its comforting to have ppl who share views. i grew interested in the mba when i came to that realization about doctorhood. no one amasses wealth by working in a business, rather one must work on a business. 30k thread haha...that was the laughing stock of every post-allo, good stuff. geez, that thing needs to be preserved in sdn annals. like a journal, to look back on years from now, too good.
 

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Shredder said:
i read that a few months ago. i forgot the specifics of it but i guess its influenced me subconsciously somehow. it was an all right read, somewhat forgettable but maybe bc i read it fast. some things rang true to a pre-allo, others would probably hit closer to home to med students or docs. its doable in a weekend, short easy read.

hmm looking through the thread, i dont see how this came up? coincidence that ive read it though, makes me feel well read. ooh, (wo)man haha...yeah the wikipedia article on PC is good, made me laugh
agreed, its comforting to have ppl who share views. i grew interested in the mba when i came to that realization about doctorhood. no one amasses wealth by working in a business, rather one must work on a business. 30k thread haha...that was the laughing stock of every post-allo, good stuff. geez, that thing needs to be preserved in sdn annals. like a journal, to look back on years from now, too good.
In eight years once these people are getting job offers out of residency, a convenient bump will show the absurdity of 30K.
 

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i think so and ive talked about it in my app and interviews. they can smoke as long as patients dont know--ignorance is bliss. smoking has gone on for centuries, i guess its just appealing, rationality aside. but id say most docs are not in great shape themselves. the whole role model thing is forgotten, its very do as i say not as i do.
And addicting.
 

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thegenius said:
And addicting.
that is true but it takes more than a few cigs to get addicted. and those first many cigs have to occur for a reason. ive actually never tried it, but i dont look down on those who do. they must have their reasons.
 

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that is true but it takes more than a few cigs to get addicted. and those first many cigs have to occur for a reason. ive actually never tried it, but i dont look down on those who do. they must have their reasons.
Oh yea, I don't look down those too, I just think (for the most part) how unfortunate it is that at some point in the past, for whatever reason, they decided to pick up smoking. Now they are stuck with a disgusting and expensive habit. I've only met one smoker that truly loves smoking and wanted to be a lawyer for big tobacco. But he was also an idealist in college and I would bet his opinions have changed.

I've tried smoking and I hate how nicotine makes me feel. I get the shakes. I've also tried dipping and I got so high on nicotine I fell off the sofa.

And I was sitting on it. It's powerful stuff! Thank god I don't find that enjoyable.
 

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Shredder said:
that is true but it takes more than a few cigs to get addicted. and those first many cigs have to occur for a reason. ive actually never tried it, but i dont look down on those who do. they must have their reasons.
there's not many reasons to start smoking: peer pressure or stress.
 

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jtank said:
there's not many reasons to start smoking: peer pressure or stress.
i hear it gives a nice buzz. many ppl do it while drinking to complement it. stress too, as it supposedly calms the nerves. i justify not doing it bc then i couldnt go 3 sets in tennis :D
 
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Dallenoff said:
he was referring to huge amounts of wealth. wealth is proportional to slogging^1, while wealth is proportional to smart business moves^2 or something like that. so by doubling work hours you can double pay but by doubling business savvy you might quadruple your keep. as in by investing or streamlining a system to make it more efficient, instead of working twice as many hours
 

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Shredder said:
he was referring to huge amounts of wealth. wealth is proportional to slogging^1, while wealth is proportional to smart business moves^2 or something like that. so by doubling work hours you can double pay but by doubling business savvy you might quadruple your keep. as in by investing or streamlining a system to make it more efficient, instead of working twice as many hours
not too sure about that, u make it sound like anyone can just learn how to become a business(wo)man (thats for selienne). there are other qualities that i think people need to become successful, like ingenuity, persevearance, creativity, drive... and u cant learn those by going to school.
 

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jtank said:
not too sure about that, u make it sound like anyone can just learn how to become a business(wo)man (thats for selienne). there are other qualities that i think people need to become successful, like ingenuity, persevearance, creativity, drive... and u cant learn those by going to school.
:confused: i agree with the qualities you list. but those also contribute to being successful in business/medical business. in fact i wouldve listed exactly the same ones pretty much. certainly not everyone can be a good businessman, and school hardly teaches business savvy. im kind of sleepy, but i concur with you
 

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Shredder said:
:confused: i agree with the qualities you list. but those also contribute to being successful in business/medical business. in fact i wouldve listed exactly the same ones pretty much. certainly not everyone can be a good businessman, and school hardly teaches business savvy. im kind of sleepy, but i concur with you
ok, then, i must be sleepy too, i dont even know what i was replying too. good nite. :sleep:
 

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MarzH05 said:
I was told by staff, during SMEP, that overweight interviewees do not do well. Not sure if this is widely spread amongst the medical school community.
This is certainly a general rule in job interviewing -- those that are in better shape tend to fare better, possibly because if you are heavy, you may get stereotyped by interviewers as lazy. As for staying fit as a physician, it pays to go into med school as fit as possible, because there will be times (esp 3d year and residency) where you will not have time to do much physical activity, won't sleep much and may be surviving on hospital cafeteria comfort food. If you are already heavy or out of shape, or a smoker, this will make this phase of your training that much harder. Plus, for you youngsters - bear in mind that your metabolism won't always be as good as it is now, and may forsake you during residency when you need it most.
 

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Who decided that 40 hours is the magic number for a normal workweek? Why on earth do Americans only get two weeks of vacation time per year? Spending 8 hours a day working is a HUGE amount of time, and as soon as I have a choice I will not be doing that. I would rather live in a smaller home, drive an older car and actually enjoy my life. There's no virtue in toiling away endlessly, you're only wasting your own life. :(
 

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Shredder said:
he was referring to huge amounts of wealth. wealth is proportional to slogging^1, while wealth is proportional to smart business moves^2 or something like that. so by doubling work hours you can double pay but by doubling business savvy you might quadruple your keep. as in by investing or streamlining a system to make it more efficient, instead of working twice as many hours
I would say that a lot of wealth is proportional to inheritance, particularly huge amounts of wealth. It would take me an awfully long time to earn the 2 million dollars that my best friend is going to inherit when she turns 24. And no, she does not have a job nor any motivation to ever get one. Sometimes not working really does pay off! :laugh:
 

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I agree with most, if not all, of the things said on this thread. I feel that doctors should lead by example but only if they choose to do so. I don't believe that it is up to the admissions committees to select fit individuals over those that are out of shape. This topic is important to me in that I used to be 85 lbs heavier than I am today. I lost the weight thinking that it would be better for my health in general...losing weight for med school apps/interviews was only a secondary concern at the time but now I am really glad that I did it. I prefer to be able to lead my patients by example, but I don't think that such a practice is required in order to be a successful physician.
 

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it's not just fitness, either.. it's pretty well documented that taller, stronger, more attractive men tend to be more favorably viewed in an interview setting, all other things being equal (even when being interviewed by another male.) women are also viewed more favorably if they are taller, thinner and mildly well-endowed. this stems from a psycho-sociological phenomenon known as the 'halo effect', whereby we see someone with certain positive characteristics like physical attractiveness, and begin to associate them with other positive characteristics despite any lack of supporting evidence (i.e. we assume that they are also trustworthy, intelligent, etc.)

in addition, studies have demonstrated that it can take up to six or seven pieces of contrary information to overturn a first impression in an interview setting. therefore, if the first impression that you convey is that you're tall, attractive and confident, you've already got a big leg up on the competition. and i don't think it takes too much imagination to extrapolate these findings to the clinical setting - those first few moments when your patients are sitting on that waxy waiting room butcher's paper and you pop your head in the door.

this mild rant has been brought to you by my bachelor's degree in psychology.. because that's about all it's good for. :laugh:
 

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zahque said:
women are also viewed more favorably if they are taller, thinner and mildly well-endowed.
This is why I do cardio 5x/week and wear 3" heels on a daily basis. :thumbup:
 

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Shredder said:
its the 2nd point you make that i was thinking about. docs who are free of residential shackles should not be sacrificing health concerns for dollars. slogging to make more money is a pretty primitive way of amassing wealth. its very linear, doesnt scale up well.

You have to remember in certain fields(surgery) long hours are required becuase you must closely watch and manage your patients recovery. You are usually paid by how many procedures you perform in a year. SO you are forced to do more and more ( reinbursements are down for procedures) and inturn you are caring for more patients at odd hours. Hey, at least your wife can spend the cash right? :thumbup:
 

Darth Asclepius

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Shredder said:
that is true but it takes more than a few cigs to get addicted. and those first many cigs have to occur for a reason. ive actually never tried it, but i dont look down on those who do. they must have their reasons.
:thumbup: Excellent attitude. We all know smoking is bad, but thinking less of people for doing it sucks (and will not help them quit). It's really hard to quit once you start (I know, I smoked for 9 years and finally quit 3 years ago). By the way, if you've never tried smoking, DON'T EVER TRY IT. It is one of the worst decisions you could ever make.
 

CTSballer11

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Shredder said:
i hear it gives a nice buzz. many ppl do it while drinking to complement it. stress too, as it supposedly calms the nerves. i justify not doing it bc then i couldnt go 3 sets in tennis :D
Yea there is no way I could play hours of of pickup ball without a break if I smoked. I do not think the taste is too bad actually. The health problems and the yellow teeth are just not for me.
 

Jon Davis

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Shredder said:
he was referring to huge amounts of wealth. wealth is proportional to slogging^1, while wealth is proportional to smart business moves^2 or something like that. so by doubling work hours you can double pay but by doubling business savvy you might quadruple your keep. as in by investing or streamlining a system to make it more efficient, instead of working twice as many hours
Yes. There is a big difference between financial security and wealth. Working more hours is not the path to wealth. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble.

I've been debating whether to get an MBA. I'm not really interested in health care issues with the MD/MBA. Just pure business side and so I just might do one after a MD. I've learned a lot on my own, I just dont know if I need an MBA too.
 

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zahque said:
it's not just fitness, either.. it's pretty well documented that taller, stronger, more attractive men tend to be more favorably viewed in an interview setting, all other things being equal (even when being interviewed by another male.) women are also viewed more favorably if they are taller, thinner and mildly well-endowed. this stems from a psycho-sociological phenomenon known as the 'halo effect', whereby we see someone with certain positive characteristics like physical attractiveness, and begin to associate them with other positive characteristics despite any lack of supporting evidence (i.e. we assume that they are also trustworthy, intelligent, etc.)

in addition, studies have demonstrated that it can take up to six or seven pieces of contrary information to overturn a first impression in an interview setting. therefore, if the first impression that you convey is that you're tall, attractive and confident, you've already got a big leg up on the competition. and i don't think it takes too much imagination to extrapolate these findings to the clinical setting - those first few moments when your patients are sitting on that waxy waiting room butcher's paper and you pop your head in the door.

this mild rant has been brought to you by my bachelor's degree in psychology.. because that's about all it's good for. :laugh:
I'm sooooo fat...yeah, it pretty much sucks.
 
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