Impostor Syndrome

[BrCo]

Anyone else getting hit with bouts of impostor syndrome on the interview trail? What're you doing (if anything) to overcome it?

I pulled the info below from Caltech's website:
Some common feelings and thoughts that might characterize the impostor syndrome are: "I feel like a fake" "My classmates/professors etc. are going to find out I don't really belong here," "Admissions made a mistake," etc.

The impostor feelings can be divided into three sub categories:

1. Feeling like a fake: the belief that one does not deserve his or her success or professional position and that somehow other have been deceived into thinking otherwise. This goes together with a fear of being, "found out", discovered or "unmasked". People who feel this way would identify with statements such as: "I can give the impression that I am more competent than I really am." "I am often afraid that others will discover how much knowledge I really lack".

2. Attributing success to luck: Another aspect of the impostor syndrome is the tendency to attribute success to luck or to other external reasons and not to your own internal abilities. Someone with such feeling would refer to an achievement by saying, "I just got lucky this time" "it was a fluke" and with fear that they will not be able to succeed the next time.

3. Discounting Success: The third aspect is a tendency to downplay success and discount it. One with such feelings would discount an achievement by saying, "it is not a big deal," "it was not important." One example of this is discounting the fact that they made it here, which is really a big success. Or saying, "I did well because it is an easy class, etc." Or, you might have a hard time accepting compliments.

Some suggestions for overcoming impostor syndrome:
Support: being able to discuss those feelings with others in order to understand that you are not alone and to get a reality check.

Identify those feelings: be aware when you engage in thoughts and feelings of impostor. Awareness is the first step to change and it is not obvious since many times we are not aware of our automatic thoughts.

Automatic Thoughts: Automatic thoughts can be defined as underlying, unquestioned thoughts, which affect how you perceive an event or situation. These thoughts are often so automatic that they occur very fast and you may not even notice them.....but they are affecting your perception An example of an automatic thought related to impostor syndrome would be "I am not smart enough." This underlying thought may lead to thinking such things as: "Everyone else is smarter than me" or "admissions made a mistake."

Do your own reality check: Question these automatic impostor thoughts and feelings and try to come up with more balanced thoughts.

So what do ya'll think? Does impostor syndrome affects you and if so, how?

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[sundancing]

I think I've been experiencing a great deal of self-doubt, but have never really thought of myself as an imposter. I did seriously wonder if one school did send me an interview invite by mistake, though.

 

[Holmwood]

I'm the type of person that does not like talking about themselves.

Since the applications basically force introverts out of their shells, yes. I do feel as if I am portraying myself in a way that would make me feel disingenuous. Although, I'd like to think of it as a mask. And realizing that everyone wears some kind of mask in their day-to-day encounters helps me cope with the anxiety.

 

[Goro]

This is a very common thing with bright and talented people.

Anyone else getting hit with bouts of impostor syndrome on the interview trail? What're you doing (if anything) to overcome it?

I pulled the info below from Caltech's website:
Some common feelings and thoughts that might characterize the impostor syndrome are: "I feel like a fake" "My classmates/professors etc. are going to find out I don't really belong here," "Admissions made a mistake," etc.

The impostor feelings can be divided into three sub categories:

1. Feeling like a fake: the belief that one does not deserve his or her success or professional position and that somehow other have been deceived into thinking otherwise. This goes together with a fear of being, "found out", discovered or "unmasked". People who feel this way would identify with statements such as: "I can give the impression that I am more competent than I really am." "I am often afraid that others will discover how much knowledge I really lack".

2. Attributing success to luck: Another aspect of the impostor syndrome is the tendency to attribute success to luck or to other external reasons and not to your own internal abilities. Someone with such feeling would refer to an achievement by saying, "I just got lucky this time" "it was a fluke" and with fear that they will not be able to succeed the next time.

3. Discounting Success: The third aspect is a tendency to downplay success and discount it. One with such feelings would discount an achievement by saying, "it is not a big deal," "it was not important." One example of this is discounting the fact that they made it here, which is really a big success. Or saying, "I did well because it is an easy class, etc." Or, you might have a hard time accepting compliments.

Some suggestions for overcoming impostor syndrome:
Support: being able to discuss those feelings with others in order to understand that you are not alone and to get a reality check.

Identify those feelings: be aware when you engage in thoughts and feelings of impostor. Awareness is the first step to change and it is not obvious since many times we are not aware of our automatic thoughts.

Automatic Thoughts: Automatic thoughts can be defined as underlying, unquestioned thoughts, which affect how you perceive an event or situation. These thoughts are often so automatic that they occur very fast and you may not even notice them.....but they are affecting your perception An example of an automatic thought related to impostor syndrome would be "I am not smart enough." This underlying thought may lead to thinking such things as: "Everyone else is smarter than me" or "admissions made a mistake."

Do your own reality check: Question these automatic impostor thoughts and feelings and try to come up with more balanced thoughts.

So what do ya'll think? Does impostor syndrome affects you and if so, how?

 

[BrCo]

What do you think accounts for these feelings @Goro? Have you seen medical students deal with impostor syndrome once accepted?

I've definitely had some doubts about my abilities, and several times I've been in disbelief about an interview.

I think I've been experiencing a great deal of self-doubt, but have never really thought of myself as an imposter. I did seriously wonder if one school did send me an interview invite by mistake, though.

I hate talking about myself, and I become mortified when people boast about me. I can understand what you're saying about wearing a mask, but I have also encountered feelings where I'm scared people are going to discover I'm not as smart as I seem to be. Realistically I know that my stats look good on paper, but I sometimes feel like an intellectual fraud.

I'm the type of person that does not like talking about themselves.

Since the applications basically force introverts out of their shells, yes. I do feel as if I am portraying myself in a way that would make me feel disingenuous. Although, I'd like to think of it as a mask. And realizing that everyone wears some kind of mask in their day-to-day encounters helps me cope with the anxiety.

 

[DarknightX]

You'll probably have the worst care of imposter syndrome when you start residency. People start calling you doctor, and as an intern, you have absolutely no clue how to manage patients. People ask you for answers, and you won't know. You'll feel like a total fraud, which you are at that point.

 

[DokterMom]

Worth Reading:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

 

[BrCo]

Looks like in both cases people cannot accurately asses their abilities.

 

[Lamel]

I often say the "just luck" thing, don't even notice it anymore, and don't even know if I subconsciously believe it or not. It probably comes from the fact that so many things are competitive in our lives, it makes you wonder why they chose you out of thousands of other applicants.

 

[EliottReid]

I feel the same way. I feel really uncomfortable when people start talking about me (compliments) and each time I am asked how I did something, I usually say I am very lucky or that it's not a big deal. It's hard to talk about myself without feeling like I am bragging or I'm arrogant.

I'm the type of person that does not like talking about themselves.
I'd like to think of it as a mask. And realizing that everyone wears some kind of mask in their day-to-day encounters helps me cope with the anxiety.

Same here.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

I have struggled with this feeling for a long time. It began when I started undergrad at Wash U. Everyone just seemed smarter and more academically and socially competent than me, the timid little introvert who hated going out and doing so many activities. Eventually, I found my niche in my service fraternity and became a great, respected leader within my subgroup of friends. As my first interview (3 days!) is coming up, and after seeing this thread, those feelings resurface so easily. It's easy to think that 3.7/36 doesn't make you competent enough for medical school. It's easy to think that having community service but not research experience makes you feel inferior to other applicants. However, we all have to make the best of what we have.

 

[G_Marker]

I've heard that this is common among young women in the field of science. This makes sense, in a way. Society, even on an subconscious level, doesn't associate scientific success with women - take the often neglected Rosalind Franklin, for example. Watson and Crick snatched her x-ray diffraction data to get their DNA model, and still high schools fail to mention her enormous part in that discovery.

Maybe a little bit of the imposter syndrome is good, though. We don't want to be too full of ourselves. 😉

 

[Avicenna]

I've heard that this is common among young women in the field of science. This makes sense, in a way. Society, even on an subconscious level, doesn't associate scientific success with women - take the often neglected Rosalind Franklin, for example. Watson and Crick snatched her x-ray diffraction data to get their DNA model, and still high schools fail to mention her enormous part in that discovery.

I used to feel this way very strongly. I didn't start taking challenging science and math courses until college, so I have always been a little less confident about my science/math abilities. Then, I read an article about the imposter syndrome and realized that it was what I was feeling about my (successful and probably more than a little lucky) research. When I was able to identify this imposter syndrome, I started trying to combat any low self-confidence/insecurity I was feeling.

Maybe a little bit of the imposter syndrome is good, though. We don't want to be too full of ourselves. 😉

Rosalind Franklin lived 60 years ago. Society's changed a lot in 60 years...

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I have struggled with this feeling for a long time. It began when I started undergrad at Wash U. Everyone just seemed smarter and more academically and socially competent than me, the timid little introvert who hated going out and doing so many activities. Eventually, I found my niche in my service fraternity and became a great, respected leader within my subgroup of friends. As my first interview (3 days!) is coming up, and after seeing this thread, those feelings resurface so easily. It's easy to think that 3.7/36 doesn't make you competent enough for medical school. It's easy to think that having community service but not research experience makes you feel inferior to other applicants. However, we all have to make the best of what we have.

I have sensed this from you. I read your posts about your commitment to service (something that's really lacking among pre-meds) and the fact that you did so well at Wash U and on your MCAT, and I wonder why you doubt yourself. At the very least, you should feel more validated relatively soon when the acceptances start rolling in.

 

[G_Marker]

Rosalind Franklin lived 60 years ago. Society's changed a lot in 60 years...

Not to get too off topic, but I was referring to the fact that high schools still focus on Watson and Crick when talking about the double helix. The real force behind the discovery was the person who actually gathered the data behind it - Rosalind Franklin. Yet, she's still a side note or not even mentioned.

 

[Avicenna]

Not to get too off topic, but I was referring to the fact that high schools still focus on Watson and Crick when talking about the double helix. The real force behind the discovery was the person who actually gathered the data behind it - Rosalind Franklin. Yet, she's still a side note or not even mentioned.

Fair enough

 

[Ace Khalifa]

I have sensed this from you. I read your posts about your commitment to service (something that's really lacking among pre-meds) and the fact that you did so well at Wash U and on your MCAT, and I wonder why you doubt yourself. At the very least, you should feel more validated relatively soon when the acceptances start rolling in.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. My main reason for wanting to become a physician is definitely to continue my passion and commitment to service. Yes, science is fascinating. Yes, research is important for medical advances. Yes, job security and salary (depending on specialty) are quite good compared to other professions. But medicine is a service profession, first and foremost. I know that I will be living a fulfilling life if I spend it helping patients overcome their medical problems. I really dislike it when people who need assistance or advice do not receive it. I want to spend the rest of my life helping others who seek it and making sure my service truly helps people get back to a state in which they can continue bettering themselves and live a happy, prosperous life. I am going to make it clear to my interviewers that this is why I'm going into medicine, along with a slight enjoyment of learning about science and wanting to become a better leader.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Not to get too off topic, but I was referring to the fact that high schools still focus on Watson and Crick when talking about the double helix. The real force behind the discovery was the person who actually gathered the
data behind it - Rosalind Franklin. Yet, she's still a side note or not even mentioned.

Yeah, you shouldn't have to wait to learn this from the women teaching you organic and biochem in college.

 

[ridethecliche]

The best way to combat this on the interview trail is to think about what you've done in your projects and how it helped the end goal of the project. This way, you're talking in terms of specific objectives and accomplishments instead of abstract 'I was essential to this project' etc. Yes, you have to sell yourself on the trail, but you can cut the BS. It's much easier for me to think of palpable things that I've done and objectives that I've accomplished instead of talking in terms of abstract things.

If you need to make a good resume detailing things you've done, then do it. Review this a bit so you have 'talking points' and such. Think of it this way, you're not trying to convince someone how awesome you are. You're just trying to be honest about the things you've done. How awesome you are will become apparent, but you don't have to feel like you're talking yourself up. Your LOR's here have your back and will speak to your personality and give you credit where it is due.

 

[mysdnhandle]

.

 

[sat0ri]

Aw yiss--Aaron Beck's CBT (referring to CalTech's advice quoted by OP)

 

[Ismet]

It's common. My two pieces of advice are 1) realize that you're not alone in thinking this, and 2) don't be afraid to ask for help, whether it's academic or mental or any other kind of help.

I made a thread back in March about this, linking to an article about impostor syndrome, and there was a lot of good discussion there as well: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/imposter-syndrome-in-medical-school.1058878/

 

[BrCo]

Thanks!

It's common. My two pieces of advice are 1) realize that you're not alone in thinking this, and 2) don't be afraid to ask for help, whether it's academic or mental or any other kind of help.

I made a thread back in March about this, linking to an article about impostor syndrome, and there was a lot of good discussion there as well: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/imposter-syndrome-in-medical-school.1058878/

 

[Narmerguy]

A few years ago I was in a situation where I felt imposter syndrome pretty bad. It was a horrible feeling, and the hardest part was often that people would shrug off my concerns or even admonish me for being ungrateful for my successes. It didn't really feel better until I met others in a similar situation and they described their own imposter syndrome feelings. For some the anguish was so great that they cried. It was a pretty cool moment to share with my peers, and from that point forward I felt fine and slowly realized that there was not much point in worrying if I was "worthy" of my successes.

Probably one of the most important lessons I've learned since then is that success is not always about who "deserves" it or who is "worthy". People succeed for a variety of reasons--luck, connections, brilliance, preparation, coercion, etc. It's true at pretty much any level, and once you realize that, I don't spend so much time worrying if I will be successful or if I deserve the successes that come my way. It's all a complicated web and the best thing for me is to just do me and not worry about what others are up to or how they got there. At the end of the day I just want to be happy with the work that I do and believe that I'm living a life that reflects my values.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

My partner TOTALLY has this. He is the most hard-working person I know, but beats himself up over the tiniest 'mistakes' he makes at work. And by mistakes, he usually means not being able to predict the future with 100% accuracy. Thanks for the info!

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. My main reason for wanting to become a physician is definitely to continue my passion and commitment to service. Yes, science is fascinating. Yes, research is important for medical advances. Yes, job security and salary (depending on specialty) are quite good compared to other professions. But medicine is a service profession, first and foremost. I know that I will be living a fulfilling life if I spend it helping patients overcome their medical problems. I really dislike it when people who need assistance or advice do not receive it. I want to spend the rest of my life helping others who seek it and making sure my service truly helps people get back to a state in which they can continue bettering themselves and live a happy, prosperous life. I am going to make it clear to my interviewers that this is why I'm going into medicine, along with a slight enjoyment of learning about science and wanting to become a better leader.

Be careful with the altruism. There's more people out there than you can possibly help, and you'll find that your altruistic side will weigh on you every time you inevitably have to deny someone care. I guarantee you, you will- you need to make money to keep a practice open, and if you give free care to everyone that needs it, you won't be able to keep practicing. When you don't have an office or the tools to work, you can't help anyone. So your choice is do what you feel is right, and end up collapsing under the financial strain, or deny care, and be crushed by your conscience.

The other side is, you'll often find you're not "helping people get back to a state in which they can continue bettering themselves and living happy, prosperous lives," but rather getting them well enough to get back out of the hospital to continue battering themselves and living lives of sloth, addiction, and excess. Not all patients, mind you, but many, many of them. Everyone has wonderful things within them, but often, in medicine, we're fighting the worst parts of them and the ways they are destroying themselves in an endless cycle of futility. I'm okay with that, but that sort of revelation can eat away the soul of an altruist.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Be careful with the altruism. There's more people out there than you can possibly help, and you'll find that your altruistic side will weigh on you every time you inevitably have to deny someone care. I guarantee you, you will- you need to make money to keep a practice open, and if you give free care to everyone that needs it, you won't be able to keep practicing. When you don't have an office or the tools to work, you can't help anyone. So your choice is do what you feel is right, and end up collapsing under the financial strain, or deny care, and be crushed by your conscience.

The other side is, you'll often find you're not "helping people get back to a state in which they can continue bettering themselves and living happy, prosperous lives," but rather getting them well enough to get back out of the hospital to continue battering themselves and living lives of sloth, addiction, and excess. Not all patients, mind you, but many, many of them. Everyone has wonderful things within them, but often, in medicine, we're fighting the worst parts of them and the ways they are destroying themselves in an endless cycle of futility. I'm okay with that, but that sort of revelation can eat away the soul of an altruist.

You make some excellent points, but there are some genuinely altruistic docs that work for a salary in community hospitals/clinics.

 

[Mad Jack]

You make some excellent points, but there are some genuinely altruistic docs that work for a salary in community hospitals/clinics.

And those community clinics and hospitals have policies that often turn anyone without insurance or that can't pay up front away. Working for a health system, you don't make the rules. Most of the "non-profit" systems out there are as profit driven as any corporation, so you'd better produce, produce, produce or you'll be fired. The world of hospital-based employment isn't exactly friendly to altruistic intentions.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

And those community clinics and hospitals have policies that often turn anyone without insurance or that can't pay up front away. Working for a health system, you don't make the rules. Most of the "non-profit" systems out there are as profit driven as any corporation, so you'd better produce, produce, produce or you'll be fired. The world of hospital-based employment isn't exactly friendly to altruistic intentions.

You're probably right. At least where I live, the poor and the uninsured are provided with a plethora of services. But my friends in other states often remind me that it's an aberration.

 

[Mad Jack]

You're probably right. At least where I live, the poor and the uninsured are provided with a plethora of services. But my friends in other states often remind me that it's an aberration.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Class...+Yale+New+Haven+Hospital,+Inc,...-a0122095665

To provide an example of the care provided by some of the hospitals out there. Yale hoarded 57 million dollars of funds that were supposed to be used to care for the poor, instead sending debt collectors and lawyers after the unemployed and uninsured, often resulting in wage garnishments and property liens. They spent a couple percent of it on actually caring for patients each year.

 

[NickNaylor]

And those community clinics and hospitals have policies that often turn anyone without insurance or that can't pay up front away. Working for a health system, you don't make the rules. Most of the "non-profit" systems out there are as profit driven as any corporation, so you'd better produce, produce, produce or you'll be fired. The world of hospital-based employment isn't exactly friendly to altruistic intentions.

You mean the medical school mission statements don't reflect hospital policy or culture?!

 

[Ace Khalifa]

Be careful with the altruism. There's more people out there than you can possibly help, and you'll find that your altruistic side will weigh on you every time you inevitably have to deny someone care. I guarantee you, you will- you need to make money to keep a practice open, and if you give free care to everyone that needs it, you won't be able to keep practicing. When you don't have an office or the tools to work, you can't help anyone. So your choice is do what you feel is right, and end up collapsing under the financial strain, or deny care, and be crushed by your conscience.

The other side is, you'll often find you're not "helping people get back to a state in which they can continue bettering themselves and living happy, prosperous lives," but rather getting them well enough to get back out of the hospital to continue battering themselves and living lives of sloth, addiction, and excess. Not all patients, mind you, but many, many of them. Everyone has wonderful things within them, but often, in medicine, we're fighting the worst parts of them and the ways they are destroying themselves in an endless cycle of futility. I'm okay with that, but that sort of revelation can eat away the soul of an altruist.

I've already seen patients like this in the ER setting from my work as a scribe. I know what the bad parts of medicine look like. Yet I still want to do this. I refuse to have a negative, pessimistic attitude anymore. It consumed me during undergrad, and I refuse to let it consume me again. Besides, I'd rather not lie to my interviewers about my altruism and commitment to service. I'd rather those be real, which they are.

 

[Holmwood]

I've already seen patients like this in the ER setting from my work as a scribe. I know what the bad parts of medicine look like. Yet I still want to do this. I refuse to have a negative, pessimistic attitude anymore. It consumed me during undergrad, and I refuse to let it consume me again. Besides, I'd rather not lie to my interviewers about my altruism and commitment to service. I'd rather those be real, which they are.

I feel the same way. I've seen anything from patients blatantly lying to me so that they can get further in line to hospital administration making "improvements" that resulted in volunteers quitting their posts after 20+ years of service. However altruistic you may be, you're not immune to the emotional/psychological impacts of working in a hostile environment such as the hospital. However optimistic I may seem in the SDN forums, I confess that I had periods of depression working in a hospital environment.

What did help me through it was the fact that other hospital employees and medical practitioners felt the same way about some of the common issues, and were willing to support each other through it. I've had registration staff wink at me whenever drug addicts give me their BS story. I've had nurses give me home-baked meals and friendly nudges whenever they pass by my workstation. Acts of kindness made all the difference in the world.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it isn't wrong to be altruistic in a hostile environment such as the hospital. It is, however, wrong to assume you'll have to go without support systems, whether it be colleagues, family, and friends.

I always thought of a physician without support systems as Batman without his Justice Friends, Robin, and Alfred.