In case you thought US docs had a monopoly on self-hating self-destructive anti-intellectualism:

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Hasn't happened yet?



I don't understand what the issue is that I choose to introduce myself by first name? I'm not fighting for anything.



Everyone keeps chirping this notion that they could do their job without anyone's assistance. They know the medicine and they can make it happen on their own. This might be true for family medicine or psych (where you can go to a third world country or do a micropractice and push some vaccines and pills), but how would this work out for neurosurgery?

You're a neurointerventional radiologist and you need to treat a patient with an aneurysm. You're going to do this on your own with a micropractice? In a third world country? No administration to buy machines/equipment? No nurses? None of those unnecessary people who are just there to serve billing and liability purposes? This makes no sense to me.

The physicians in this thread have an over-inflated ego, sorry. Unless you're running a low-tech gig you need people to help you do your job.



Day to day world? What are you looking for? The old days where you get free haircuts because you walk in and say you're a doctor?

Is it an Optho thing? The only doc who didn't introduce himself as a doc that I shadowed was an ophtalmologist who just introduced himself by first and last name. Really cool guy who did a lot of elective surgery.

Interestingly, in my first language we don't use title Dr to differentiate physicians from anyone else. The title in itself is not going to make anyone feel anymore secure about themselves if they are not already. Also, apparently surgeons in UK go back to being called Mr and no one has felt offended because of it.
 
This is getting ridiculous. I also introduce myself by name only because I have also found it is less off putting to patients. In a hospital setting, i will follow that up with "I am one of the doctors who is going to be taking care of you". That doesn't mean that those of you who do otherwise are power hungry egotistical jerks (though Miss Manners does disapprove of this), just a different way of doing things.
 
I had a friend who tried this experiment once on his three year old little boy. he gave him a Barbie doll to play with.

The kid promptly held it like a machine gun and started making gun sound effects.

Then he gave some dump trucks to his little daughter (maybe 5 or 6). She soon told her dad "This is the mommy truck, and this is the daddy truck, and this is the baby truck".



We had a gay physician come to our school and he talked to us about gender issues in medicine. All goes well, good lecture, charismatic guy. Then he mentions gender identity is something society places on us. Ok me thinks. Then he mentions that we should not issue gender at birth because it causes parents to force gender on children through buying gender specific dolls/toys :whoa:
 
I only read the first 4 pages of posts, but I would like to add:

Regardless of the silly BMJ article, you should put the patient first and not worry too much about being called "doctor." Sure, as a doctor you have earned a respected position. But is it respected the same way by everyone? No. Most doctors see a wide variety of patients, regarding a diversity in intelligence, socioeconomic background, education, etc.

According to edicate, doctors should be addressed as "Dr. X . " Just like dentists, professors, etc. Some uneducated patients may not know this. Someone with Down syndrome may not know to call me doctor. Some educated people don't follow edicate and just feel more comfortable calling me by my first name. Apparently, there is a new wave of people who see the term "doctor" as a "microaggression."

You can be one of those people that correct the patient (and if you are dealing with a borderline personality, or someone who is intentionally provoking you, sure you should draw a line so that you can potentially maintain a professional doctor-patient relationship), but most of the time it is not worth it to correct the patient, because it harms the doctor-patient relationship.

Would I accept the author of the article as a patient? Sure. As long as I can offer some help and she doesn't want to discuss her opinions on doctor-patient interactions too much.
 
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I had a friend who tried this experiment once on his three year old little boy. he gave him a Barbie doll to play with.

The kid promptly held it like a machine gun and started making gun sound effects.

Then he gave some dump trucks to his little daughter (maybe 5 or 6). She soon told her dad "This is the mommy truck, and this is the daddy truck, and this is the baby truck".


And another set of kids may have done the opposite.

You can definitely take it too far, but letting kids play with the toys they want (and not just "gender appropriate" ones) isn't going to hurt anyone. It'll probably help, actually.
 
I thought so.

Uh no. Enlighten me.

There's a grain of truth to the old saying "boys will be boys, and girls will be girls". Parents know this. I get amused when I see parents who swallow this gender neutral nonsense and try and implement it, pull their hair out in frustration when the boys start using dolls as weapons or building supplies, and girls start using dump truck as families.

So, no matter how much you want gender roles to be a social construct, sometimes things seem to be innate.

Now, I AM a big fan of the Easy Bake oven for all kids; the earlier any kid learns how to cook, the better.

But despite my best attempts to nurture cooking skills in both my kids, my 12 year old son can't even microwave a burrito, yet my 10 year old daughter can cook pasta!
 
I thought so.



There's a grain of truth to the old saying "boys will be boys, and girls will be girls". Parents know this. I get amused when I see parents who swallow this gender neutral nonsense and try and implement it, pull their hair out in frustration when the boys start using dolls as weapons or building supplies, and girls start using dump truck as families.

So, no matter how much you want gender roles to be a social construct, sometimes things seem to be innate.

Now, I AM a big fan of the Easy Bake oven for all kids; the earlier any kid learns how to cook, the better.

But despite my best attempts to nurture cooking skills in both my kids, my 12 year old son can't even microwave a burrito, yet my 10 year old daughter can cook pasta!


Yah, but would it have been different if they had dolls and dump trucks since birth? (or age appropriate, you know what I mean)

Maybe, maybe not. Of course there is a grain of truth, but a hefty chunk of these things are societal.

Besides, I'm a girl and I certainly wouldn't have made my dump trucks into families. And I hated dolls. So, anecdote for anecdote there.

Parents have experience with their own children. It doesn't make them experts on all children. No, I'm not a parent, but I have tons of experience in daycare and education with thousands of children, not just your two. And your generalizations don't hold that true, in my experience.
 
Yah, but would it have been different if they had dolls and dump trucks since birth? (or age appropriate, you know what I mean)

Maybe, maybe not. Of course there is a grain of truth, but a hefty chunk of these things are societal.

Besides, I'm a girl and I certainly wouldn't have made my dump trucks into families. And I hated dolls. So, anecdote for anecdote there.

Parents have experience with their own children. It doesn't make them experts on all children. No, I'm not a parent, but I have tons of experience in daycare and education with thousands of children, not just your two. And your generalizations don't hold that true, in my experience.

🙄
 
You shouldn't roll your eyes. We all have a picture in our head of how we're going to be as parents and how we're going to raise our kids. We read books, we think about future generations, it's all gonna be great. And certainly this person isn't the first to say something like, "I know what I'm doing, because I have a ton of experience with <insert something child-related>."

And then they pop out that baby chute and it all gets shot to hell. It's a hard thing to deal with. You learn a lot.

As we say in the military, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

Was more of a general statement regarding all the inane dribble she spits up on this forum.
 
Ah, I'm not gonna dump on you, but i hope you look back on this and smile in about 10 years. Pretty much every parent in the last two generations started off like you, convinced that gender roles are social constructs. Lord knows I did. My parents too.

But the thing is, no matter how many times I tried to get my girls to play ball, play war, wrestle, etc, they were never really into it. Sure, they'd do it if I asked, probably just to spend time with me, but left to their own devices it always reverted to pretend families, dance performances, self-written plays, teaching school. Ditto for TV shows, where it's all Dora and My Little Pony, but never Jake and the Neverland Pirates or Bob the Builder.

And the thing is, my wife stayed home with all our girls. No daycare. Just her and them until they hit preschool. And it's not like we have family near us. They visit maybe once a year.

You know how transgender kids fight really hard when they aren't allowed to dress the way they feel? Everytime I read those stories, I see my middle child crying because I told her I would rather play tag than school.

So good luck with the gender neutral toys and all that. Maybe your kids will be different. But probably not.


I'm not saying there are no differences. I'm saying let boys play with dolls if they want and let girls play with dump trucks if they want. And a lot of people don't do that.
 
You shouldn't roll your eyes. We all have a picture in our head of how we're going to be as parents and how we're going to raise our kids. We read books, we think about future generations, it's all gonna be great. And certainly this person isn't the first to say something like, "I know what I'm doing, because I have a ton of experience with <insert something child-related>."

And then they pop out that baby chute and it all gets shot to hell. It's a hard thing to deal with. You learn a lot.

As we say in the military, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.


I'm sorry. Wasn't really trying to say that I know what I'm doing. Rather that my opinion isn't invalidated because I'm not a parent. Should've been clearer.
 
Was more of a general statement regarding all the inane dribble she spits up on this forum.

Well, aren't you a jerk. But that's probably my entitlement talking since I'm under 25.
 
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I'm not saying there are no differences. I'm saying let boys play with dolls if they want and let girls play with dump trucks if they want. And a lot of people don't do that.

Yes they do. It's just that kids don't conform to your bizarre idea of pretending that gender makes no difference and that societal constructs limit behavior which is not really true
 
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Yes they do. It's just that kids don't conform to your bizarre idea of pretending that gender makes no difference and that societal constructs limit behavior which is not really true
No. Tons of people really would not allow it. Plenty of people still think that all boys who play with dolls will turn out gay, or something. And as I've pointed out, I'm not saying it makes no difference. Of course gender makes a difference. And of course societal constructs limit behaviour. It's a mix.

Pretending it's completely one to the other is the bizarre idea.
 
Indeed!
On the count of three, @Tired:

One
Two
Three

Just wait until you become a parent!

No. Tons of people really would not allow it. Plenty of people still think that all boys who play with dolls will turn out gay, or something. And as I've pointed out, I'm not saying it makes no difference. Of course gender makes a difference. And of course societal constructs limit behaviour. It's a mix.

Pretending it's completely one to the other is the bizarre idea.
You have a lot of interesting ideas about parenting in modern America.

Your perception of how people raise their kids, or what is common behaviors among people with children, is very different than what I have seen and experienced in 10 years as a guy with kids and friend of other guys with kids.
 
I am literally bent over double on my keyboard laughing!
:highfive:

I used to hate it when people said that to me. Before you have kids it sounds like patronizing bulls***. Then the first time you have to leave one kid's basketball game because the other kid just puked on the nice man in the row in front of you, you start to get it.
 
I used to hate it when people said that to me. Before you have kids it sounds like patronizing bulls***. Then the first time you have to leave one kid's basketball game because the other kid just puked on the nice man in the row in front of you, you start to get it.

I highly doubt this poster has met anyone who "doesn't allow" their son to play with dolls or their girls to play with trucks. More likely she's (a) heard her male friends say that that's what they'll do when they have kids, or (b) noted that parents don't buy "gender discordant" toys for their kids.

Of course (a) is just male bravado that most of us were guilty of at one time or another, and (b) neglects the fact that most children, long before they can talk or even walk, will make it very clear to you which toy they want at the store. God help you if you buy her a baseball mitt after she saw a pink painting easel.


Oh I've met plenty actually. It's sad. That's my point.
 
I don't believe you. At your age pursuing this career, I doubt that you even know many people who have children, much less know them well enough to get such personal information about their non-PC parenting style. But okay, if that's the story you want to stick with.

Um, okay. Like I said, lots of experience with kids and families. Obnoxious people are quite happy to share their non-PC patenting style with you, uninvited. Plus their kids are quite happy to tell other kids what they can and can't play with "because my mom said so" (not that kids always tell the truth, but when they're young enough they usually do).

But okay.
 
Ah, I'm not gonna dump on you, but i hope you look back on this and smile in about 10 years. Pretty much every parent in the last two generations started off like you, convinced that gender roles are social constructs. Lord knows I did. My parents too.

But the thing is, no matter how many times I tried to get my girls to play ball, play war, wrestle, etc, they were never really into it. Sure, they'd do it if I asked, probably just to spend time with me, but left to their own devices it always reverted to pretend families, dance performances, self-written plays, teaching school. Ditto for TV shows, where it's all Dora and My Little Pony, but never Jake and the Neverland Pirates or Bob the Builder.

And the thing is, my wife stayed home with all our girls. No daycare. Just her and them until they hit preschool. And it's not like we have family near us. They visit maybe once a year.

You know how transgender kids fight really hard when they aren't allowed to dress the way they feel? Everytime I read those stories, I see my middle child crying because I told her I would rather play tag than school.

So good luck with the gender neutral toys and all that. Maybe your kids will be different. But probably not.

It's a fact that children stick to toys and environments they associate with their gender, even if presented with opposing options. Everyone accepts this, even the most purist of gender theorists. The question is: why does it happen?

You automatically assume that the source is mostly or entirely biological -without presenting evidence or even an hypothesis as to why-, whereas gender theorists accuse conditioning.

I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest that we are influenced by our environment; that there is nothing intrinsic about women wearing dress and heels, having long hair, liking pink better than blue, being more passive socially and romantically, etc, and whatever you can think of for boys. There are very few logical explanations for that, besides social engineering. If you can think of any, I'd be happy to hear it.
 
I didn't say it was biological, nor did I assume it. Actually, I could care less why it occurs.

What I said was that many of us (including me) started out thinking that we could change it by exposing our kids to different toys and types of play, but that I have yet to meet anyone who succeeded.

What did you do to break this tendency on your children?

I do not have children, but my three siblings (2F 2M) and I were encouraged by our parents to partake in any activity we desired without pressure to conform, and I think it worked well. We all love cooking and baking, playing -violent- video games, musical theatre, sports, each of us is educated in a typically "female" field, we have an ample number of friends of "both" genders, I had long-hair growing up and one of my sisters short hair, I remember all of us playing both with G.I. Joe and barbies, rough playing, etc. You get the drift.

It's possible your daughters would have turned the same in any environment, but I doubt it. Parents have a massive influence on the choices their children make, consciously or not.
 
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Pretty much what I figured.

Let us know how things go with your (eventual) kids.

Your memories of childhood not withstanding, I suspect you'll be surprised with how things go.

:laugh:

Ok, hun. I'm sure I will.
 
Don't invalidate her experience. Better check your privilege.

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Hasn't happened yet?



I don't understand what the issue is that I choose to introduce myself by first name? I'm not fighting for anything.


You're a neurointerventional radiologist and you need to treat a patient with an aneurysm. You're going to do this on your own with a micropractice? In a third world country? No administration to buy machines/equipment? No nurses? None of those unnecessary people who are just there to serve billing and liability purposes? This makes no sense to me. The physicians in this thread have an over-inflated ego, sorry. Unless you're running a low-tech gig you need people to help you do your job.

Day to day world? What are you looking for? The old days where you get free haircuts because you walk in and say you're a doctor?

Your accusing everyone else of being arrogant entitled bozos by just doing what is a socially expected and defined behavior seen as respectful and while things may be changing, it is still indeed expected by most patients. There can be many mitigating factors to influencing things one way or another, but you havent found some panacea of practice style, its very individual and location specific. I for one cannot do this, as my patients cant get over how young I look (despite the receding hair and gray starting in), I have to remind them Im a doctor it seems because their preconceived notions of old dude (Im usually 5-15 yrs older than my average pt, im often told I appear to young by someone 10 years younger than me) arent met. It depends like everything else.

You are excellent at building straw men and taking things out of context to create false equivalencies. No one says everyone is unnecessary for all practices, just the degree of it you see and the multiple layers in training are not fully required. Things need only be as complex or simple as necessary, but no further just because.

I cut my own hair. No, again, you miss the whole point and build your arrogant entitled doctor caricature to fit your narrative, and this is why people are on your case which you view as entitled. I meant as a general level of respect and trustedness by the public, which you can objectively see in research polls and the like. Just fyi, I dont want to be known as a "dr" anywhere outside of work whatsoever, going so far as to be awkward when Im asked "what do you do" and reply with an awkward "medical field", which besides feeling awkward works great. Also still have trouble with my grandmother who insists on writing doctor on her letters. I want nothing to do with being recognized as a doctor outside of what pays the bills, and if my patient population were so relaxed as to not need to hear/see subtle clues that I am indeed a physician, I would have no problem with it. However, that isnt how the world works, people have cognitive biases whether they know it or not, and you are likely to judge someones ability/expertise on something as superficial as what theyre wearing when you meet them, regardless of the fact that has nothing to do with their abilities (con men are good at exploiting this and other biases).

You seem to want to paint drs who go by their titles (which is socially conditioned to them and the public) as some megalomaniacs and yourself some wonderful egalitarian because you do not, without recognizing the obvious that it totally depends. You can be an entitled arrogant person/dr and go by your first name, or be super humble and call yourself dr, it isnt the defining characteristic and most arrogantly left out what the average patient desires or is comforted by, not some editorial writer in medical journal that is decidedly not representative of the average patient.
 
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I find it particularly ironic that the person espousing a "Call me Jane" mentality is a woman. Given the all-too-pervasive sexist assumption that female-healthcare-provider = nurse I find it laughable that any medical professional could seriously advocate that a female doctor encourage the misimpression when simply introducing herself as 'Doctor Doe' should (but all too often doesn't) suffice.

Not commenting on 'equality' at all, but rather on simple clarity.
 
Your accusing everyone else of being arrogant entitled bozos by just doing what is a socially expected and defined behavior seen as respectful and while things may be changing, it is still indeed expected by most patients. There can be many mitigating factors to influencing things one way or another, but you havent found some panacea of practice style, its very individual and location specific. I for one cannot do this, as my patients cant get over how young I look (despite the receding hair and gray starting in), I have to remind them Im a doctor it seems because their preconceived notions of old dude (Im usually 5-15 yrs older than my average pt, im often told I appear to young by someone 10 years younger than me) arent met. It depends like everything else.

You are excellent at building straw men and taking things out of context to create false equivalencies. No one says everyone is unnecessary for all practices, just the degree of it you see and the multiple layers in training are not fully required. Things need only be as complex or simple as necessary, but no further just because.

I cut my own hair. No, again, you miss the whole point and build your arrogant entitled doctor caricature to fit your narrative, and this is why people are on your case which you view as entitled. I meant as a general level of respect and trustedness by the public, which you can objectively see in research polls and the like. Just fyi, I dont want to be known as a "dr" anywhere outside of work whatsoever, going so far as to be awkward when Im asked "what do you do" and reply with an awkward "medical field", which besides feeling awkward works great. Also still have trouble with my grandmother who insists on writing doctor on her letters. I want nothing to do with being recognized as a doctor outside of what pays the bills, and if my patient population were so relaxed as to not need to hear/see subtle clues that I am indeed a physician, I would have no problem with it. However, that isnt how the world works, people have cognitive biases whether they know it or not, and you are likely to judge someones ability/expertise on something as superficial as what theyre wearing when you meet them, regardless of the fact that has nothing to do with their abilities (con men are good at exploiting this and other biases).

You seem to want to paint drs who go by their titles (which is socially conditioned to them and the public) as some megalomaniacs and yourself some wonderful egalitarian because you do not, without recognizing the obvious that it totally depends. You can be an entitled arrogant person/dr and go by your first name, or be super humble and call yourself dr, it isnt the defining characteristic and most arrogantly left out what the average patient desires or is comforted by, not some editorial writer in medical journal that is decidedly not representative of the average patient.



...and you tend to make overly verbose responses to points that I never made.

I never called anyone arrogant for introducing themselves as Doctor. I defended myself against people who says that it is wrong not to do so. I don't see the need for the title myself, but to each their own. I do believe that the Doctors who believe they could do their job without the help from anyone else are arrogant.


Things need only be as complex or simple as necessary, but no further just because.

This quote is deep, man.
 
Who needs a title though? Doesn't the respect that comes from the fact that the patients are coming to you for help in their time of need count? Or the fact that nurses abide by your orders? Or physical therapy comes and rehabs your patient and gives you rec's where to discharge? Or social work comes along and helps arrange discharge? Or the nurse who calls your patient post discharge to see how they're doing?

I don't understand why the title is so damn important. Physicians have plenty of respect in the day to day world. I don't see why going on a first name basis with everyone diminishes that.

Not if you're a woman. When female physicians introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Jane, the xyz resident." They are assumed to be a nurse.
 
Not if you're a woman. When female physicians introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Jane, the xyz resident." They are assumed to be a nurse.
Yup, and even after that they still ask when the doctor or, my favorite, when the surgeon will see them.
 
This is getting ridiculous. I also introduce myself by name only because I have also found it is less off putting to patients. In a hospital setting, i will follow that up with "I am one of the doctors who is going to be taking care of you". That doesn't mean that those of you who do otherwise are power hungry egotistical jerks (though Miss Manners does disapprove of this), just a different way of doing things.

Actually Miss Manners only expresses disapproval of non-medical doctors using their titles socially. Physicians are always allowed and presumed - but certainly not required - to substitute Dr. wherever Mr./Ms. would normally be used.

I'm not saying there are no differences. I'm saying let boys play with dolls if they want and let girls play with dump trucks if they want. And a lot of people don't do that.

I highly doubt this poster has met anyone who "doesn't allow" their son to play with dolls or their girls to play with trucks. More likely she's (a) heard her male friends say that that's what they'll do when they have kids, or (b) noted that parents don't buy "gender discordant" toys for their kids.

I've found it rare for a parent to scold a girl for playing with "boys' toys", but unfortunately, far more common for parents (sorry - mainly Dads) to correct boys for actions that are stereotypically feminine. I will be thrilled when the phrase "like a girl" ceases to be an insult for behavior that is weak or cowardly and the companion phrase "like a man" is replaced by something gender-neutral such as brave, strong, ethical, insightful, etc. The seeds of misogyny are planted early with phrases like those.
 
Actually Miss Manners only expresses disapproval of non-medical doctors using their titles socially. Physicians are always allowed and presumed - but certainly not required - to substitute Dr. wherever Mr./Ms. would normally be used.
Correct, but not what I said. Miss Manners disapproves of anyone introducing themselves with their title (what this thread is actually about). You're correct in that socially only physicians should be called "Doctor So-and-so", but no one should introduce themselves as "Dr. So-and-so".
 
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