In computer age, do the medical professionals need formal training in computers?

[sidharth2008]

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• Medical profession demands being up to date and being able to present efficiently in front of others. It needs research on varied topics and (dissemination and assimilation of) authentic information. All this is simply impossible without using computers and internet.
• But Alas! Computers basics and fundamentals are never taught to us at any level. All we learn or know is just by the methods of hit and trial or maybe from brothers/sisters/friends/acquaintances. The result is dependence on others to get small things done. Or paying hefty amounts for petty tasks! And still the tasks/work done is not up to the mark. And for little changes in the results/project/thesis, we call a third person AGAIN!
• This hampers freedom of expression and restricts freedom of creativity/uniqueness/technicality. And we become slaves to persons who don’t even know the abc of our field (or maybe just duds who have gained scrambled knowledge).

Do You think that we , the medical professionals need professional training in computers?

 

[Mr hawkings]

• Medical profession demands being up to date and being able to present efficiently in front of others. It needs research on varied topics and (dissemination and assimilation of) authentic information. All this is simply impossible without using computers and internet.
• But Alas! Computers basics and fundamentals are never taught to us at any level. All we learn or know is just by the methods of hit and trial or maybe from brothers/sisters/friends/acquaintances. The result is dependence on others to get small things done. Or paying hefty amounts for petty tasks! And still the tasks/work done is not up to the mark. And for little changes in the results/project/thesis, we call a third person AGAIN!
• This hampers freedom of expression and restricts freedom of creativity/uniqueness/technicality. And we become slaves to persons who don’t even know the abc of our field (or maybe just duds who have gained scrambled knowledge).

Do You think that we , the medical professionals need professional training in computers?

Maybe the older housestaff may need it. if you are 35 years of younger, you should be fairly familiar with computers after being exposed to them all your life.

 

[deleted77919]

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[Droopy Snoopy]

I don't know where you're going with this. I haven't run into anyone at this medical center who couldn't handle their own word processing, spreadsheets, email, powerpoint, etc. (Ok, so they put together horrendous presentations, but that's not because of a lack of knowledge about how to use the software).

If you are suggesting that we all need to brush up on our C++ and SQL, then I would say for the vast majority that is an utter waste of time (and for the rest, an MD/PhD might be in order). That's what collaborating on research is about, I'll bring the clinical knowledge and the research idea, the physicists can worry over their advanced Fourier transforms, and the computer science whiz can help program the whole thing.

Met one elderly rads attending who had a really hard time with the new computer-based dictation equipment the department installed last year. Guy could churn out one error-filled CXR report for every 5 of his PGY-2's. After a day or so of seeing him hide things from himself in windows and forgetting to format the voice recognition software I basically became his transcriptionist for the rest of the week.

This kind of thing is rare, but it does happen and when it does has an impact on patient care. Yeah I think being tech-savvy is important, but given a few years these guys will catch up or retire anyway. By the by as M1s we do have formal training by the library staff on doing Ovid searches, etc.

 

[Dirt]

Seriously, anyone under the age of 35 knows more than enough about computers to handle pretty much any situation you would ever encounter in the field of medicine, computer wise.

edit: 90% of those over 35 know enough too.

 

[Habeed]

It's an important skill, but this kind of talk is how they come up with useless touchy-feely classes in med school that waste your time when you need to be studying the real stuff.

 

[novastorm]

Yes. I think there should be a screening test for computer skills and a required class if you fail. It will only help you. Every student should be able to use Word, Excel and PowerPoint. And for the love of god if you use a mac, understand you're the minority and nobody in your IT department will like you when you get a real job, learn how to use windows.

 

[Ashers]

Yes. I think there should be a screening test for computer skills and a required class if you fail. It will only help you. Every student should be able to use Word, Excel and PowerPoint. And for the love of god if you use a mac, understand you're the minority and nobody in your IT department will like you when you get a real job, learn how to use windows.

I had never used PowerPoint before my M3 year in med school. I might not've made it. 🙄

 

[NonTradMed]

Most doctors can probably pick up the computer skills they need. There are a few older attendings that could use come formal classes. I met one who had been practicing 30+ years and was really envious of my comp sci degree because he figured I 'probably know how to work a computer'. Hee hee.

 

[coldweatherblue]

when I was a kid I used DOS and my dad taught me how to program stuff in QBasic, all that. Computers are cool and I've been using them all my life. That said now I have a little macbook that PERFECTLY suites my needs. I don't think most younger people need formal computer training; most of the mandatory computer classes I took in undergrad were a complete waste of time and I see no reason why a computer class in med school would be any different. that said:

these days computers and me have an understanding: they don't f### with me and I don't throw them in the river.

 

[scotties123]

these days computers and me have an understanding: they don't f### with me and I don't throw them in the river.

thank u for making me smile at 530am while studying for an anatomy test i have in 2 hours.

 

[Law2Doc]

Maybe the older housestaff may need it. if you are 35 years of younger, you should be fairly familiar with computers after being exposed to them all your life.

Agree with this. The attendings might be lacking in the necessary skills, but the later generations have been working with computers since before grade school. It's pretty common for med students to be helping out the tech support more than the other way round. OP, if you are an attending who feels your computer skills are lacking, you perhaps need to get a more recent med student or graduate to help you out. But no, I don't think the younger sect needs to be bored with formal computer training -- a lot of the current med students could teach such a class, not need to take one.

 

[plainfacts]

I think it should obligatory to have created at least one major computer program 10'000 lines of code minimum in C++/C# or Java. Part of the interview would be to present it to a computer scientist and impress him. Pre-meds will find a way to solve this task and they will learn immensely in the area of problem solving and computer science.

Compared to spending 100 hours "volunteering" at some hospital just to meet requirements such a task would ascertain the applicant have minimum level of problem solving capability required for any task he or she could face in medicine.

 

[edmadison]

Every student should be able to use Word, Excel and PowerPoint.

While I agree with this, I think PowerPoint is the devil and the worst impediment to effect education since "the new math"

To the OP, I have a CS degree and it have not used one bit of it during med school or since.

Ed

 

[braluk]

85 WPM is the new AMCAS prereq.

 

[sidharth2008]

Maybe the older housestaff may need it. if you are 35 years of younger, you should be fairly familiar with computers after being exposed to them all your life.

Yes THATS It. That is the misconception(please dont mind) that most people have. But think about this simple statement that I make below:

" CASE NO. 1 : That of A properly trained person

• He shall exactly know what he wants; what are the things that can be best done with a given software; which softwares are the best to use for a given project; He shall exactly be sure of the things. He shall get the desired results(like slideshows or even a simple letter print!!) in minimal time(equal to the time actually needed to do that work.)

CASE NO. 1 : That of A person who learned computers by friends/family/by himself experimenting on the computers(knowing that all he has to do is not to delete useful data!)

• He shall also know what he wants but not exactly; he shall not know what are the things that can be best done with a given software; which softwares are the best to use for a given project; He shall not exactly be sure of the things. He may also get the desired results(like slideshows or even a simple letter print!!) but not in minimal time( time taken is more than the time actually needed to do that work.) since he shall do the things by hit and trial OR by learning them at the nick of time(MANY OF US DO THAT!! - we don't study till the exam approaches us ).

So you can see mathematically: Let us suppose that

- The time taken to do online/any other self study course in computers = X hours
- The time taken by the medico/professional(with no formal computer education) to do a given task on computers = Y hours
- - The time taken by the trained (computer) medico/professional(with formal computer education - like online course or offline) to do a given task on computers = Z hours

Then following are TRUE(truth is always bitter!!):

1. Z is always less than or equal to (AT BEST!!) Y
2. Z + X shall always be less than Y in the long run(the length of the 'long run' is directly proportional to the frequency of use of computers by the person)

So it is always better and wise to invest a little time and money to properly learn the computers rather than squandering precious time to do petty things here and there at the last minute. Remember?? "A stitch in TiME saves NiNE"
Had it not been true, nobody would have studied so hard in medical schools for so long because everything and everything taught in medical schools is available on the internet. And many patients would have become doctors themselves!!

 

[sidharth2008]

I don't know where you're going with this. I haven't run into anyone at this medical center who couldn't handle their own word processing, spreadsheets, email, power point, etc. (Ok, so they put together horrendous presentations, but that's not because of a lack of knowledge about how to use the software).

If you are suggesting that we all need to brush up on our C++ and SQL, then I would say for the vast majority that is an utter waste of time (and for the rest, an MD/PhD might be in order). That's what collaborating on research is about, I'll bring the clinical knowledge and the research idea, the physicists can worry over their advanced Fourier transforms, and the computer science whiz can help program the whole thing.

• Yest agreed that every one might be able to "handle their own word processing, spreadsheets, email, power point, etc." but the point is that how well could they "handle"
• and how much time did they take to "handle" (as compared to a trained person)
• And did they actually know the software or did they used their intelligence to do the things by hit and trial and error and a bit of advice!!

And YES you are right in saying that we dont need programming c++ and SQL and all s*it - we have manyyyy other things to study and fill our memory hard drives with!!.

 

[sidharth2008]

But no, I don't think the younger sect needs to be bored with formal computer training

How about some kind of audio/ audio visual self study training. Just as easy and effective as watching a movie!!

 

[masterofmonkeys]

you know, when I first read this thread I thought "Hey! this is exactly what we need! More waste of time!"

Now in addition to training in how to consent, how to tie our shoes, how to scrub, how to walk and breathe at the same time, and how to talk to patients in an empathic manner, we should also bear the burden of one more silly piece of crap. If you need help in computers, do it in your own time. Leave me alone.

 

[plainfacts]

"Hey! this is exactly what we need! !"

Yup. Would make better doctors.

 

[braluk]

you know, when I first read this thread I thought "Hey! this is exactly what we need! More waste of time!"

Now in addition to training in how to consent, how to tie our shoes, how to scrub, how to walk and breathe at the same time, and how to talk to patients in an empathic manner, we should also bear the burden of one more silly piece of crap. If you need help in computers, do it in your own time. Leave me alone.

Someone's Grumpy...

 

[Law2Doc]

How about some kind of audio/ audio visual self study training. Just as easy and effective as watching a movie!!

Um no. I'm saying the people you are suggesting ought to have additional study are the people who don't need it. You, as an attending might be your own target audience. But med students aren't. Total waste of time for us. We could teach such a course -- we don't need one. We are already bored to tears when our school gives us an hour lecture on how to set up our password on the hospital system, something we could figure out on our own in 20 seconds. The younger generation isn't having trouble with computers. They are merely having trouble with the older generation thinking that the younger people are as inept as they are with computers. I think perhaps from your post that older attendings should have some kind of audio/video training session to learn how little they know of computers compared to the subsequent generation.

 

[jonb12997]

the exception to this is the stupid pubmed search! I obviously would know that I have to enter [1] AND [2] NOT [3] instead of just typing in what i'm looking for. Another reason I just use uptodate!!

Pubmed is obviously not made by people who actually spend time working with patients.

all right... sorry about the thread hijack!

 

[link2swim06]

I think it should obligatory to have created at least one major computer program 10'000 lines of code minimum in C++/C# or Java. Part of the interview would be to present it to a computer scientist and impress him. Pre-meds will find a way to solve this task and they will learn immensely in the area of problem solving and computer science.

Compared to spending 100 hours "volunteering" at some hospital just to meet requirements such a task would ascertain the applicant have minimum level of problem solving capability required for any task he or she could face in medicine.

Hell ya, the database work I have been doing w/o any training is far far harder than any o-chem or biology class I have taken.

 

[Hurricane95]

I agree with most posters on here. Older docs may need a tutorial here and there (I know a few who use computers for absolutely nothing and rely on paper charts, books, etc. for everything), but most younger people know enough computing to get by. Certainly everyone doing K-12 in a US school has picked up enough by the time college rolls around.

 

[DocPsychosis]

...large fonts...

FYI you type like a crazy person. Try toning it down a bit.

 

[TMP-SMX]

1. Z is always less than or equal to (AT BEST!!) Y
2. Z + X shall always be less than Y in the long run(the length of the 'long run' is directly proportional to the frequency of use of computers by the person)

So it is always better and wise to invest a little time and money to properly learn the computers rather than squandering precious time to do petty things here and there at the last minute. Remember?? "A stitch in TiME saves NiNE"
Had it not been true, nobody would have studied so hard in medical schools for so long because everything and everything taught in medical schools is available on the internet. And many patients would have become doctors themselves!!

If Z = the amount of time that should have taken you to type and
Y= the amount of time it took you due to the unnecessary bolding and size differences, then:

Y-Z will always be greater than 0 but may contain an asymptote at X=0.

 

[sidharth2008]

crazy person. Try toning it down a bit.

everyone is not your patient!!

 

[sidharth2008]

If Z = the amount of time that should have taken you to type and
Y= the amount of time it took you due to the unnecessary bolding and size differences, then:

Y-Z will always be greater than 0 but may contain an asymptote at X=0.

That's why you took time to read the post and paid so much attention to it !! All due to this XYZ... So better luck next time

 

[8744]

Hey. I don't know too many attendings, let alone residents, who are not functional with computers. We have electronic medical records in our Emergency Department and everybody occasionally has to open up Word (or an equivalent program) to write a letter. The thing about computers nowadays as opposed to when I first started using them in the early eighties is that they are ridiculously easy to use once you know the "metaphor" (like the Apple or Windows user interface). I can open up any piece of Windows software and get it to do what I want without too much effort, provided of course I don't want to get too jiggy with it.

When computers don't work I immedietely stop what I am doing, call the IT guys, and let them figure it out. I don't wrestle with them and I'd no more try to troubleshoot software or hardware than I would try to fix my own toaster. Which is all computers really are, after all. Just another appliance.

On the other hand there is less and less I want to do on the computer except things that are completely transparent to me such as using an ultrasound machine or surfing the internet. I have very little desire, for example, to become an expert on Powerpoint because after I prepare another couple of presentations (for which I use a standard background and text with no special effects) I plan on never giving another presentation ever again once Ifinish residency. And I certainly only need about five percent of the capabilities of programs like Word and Excel so I'm not going to invest any time learning what are rapidly becoming useless skills.

 

[8744]

In other words, making an effort to learn how to use computers is so passe. We are now at the point where you don't really need to know how to use a computer to use a computer. The rest is just geekary.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

everyone is not your patient!!

At first I wasn't sold on your outrage, but with all those exclamation points...

 

[dannye3]

If you don't know how to use a program, you can either:

1.) Get one of those Video Professor DVDs
2.) Just start right-clicking randomly on the program until you find what you are looking for

But really, most software is intuitive enough for anyone with basic experience on a PC to figure out (eventually).

As for doctors being required to take computer classes... don't they have to go through enough schooling as it is? 😕

 

[geogil]

I'm with the other medstudents on this one. There is enough crap that is non-essential that wasting hours of my life teaching me how to use a computer is the height of stupidity. Would you, as an attending, like to attend a 3 hour /week course on how to interview a patient, now that you've been practicing for say 10 years? no. You would think 'that's foolish, these are skills I already have, why waste time on this?' Same logic applies here.

There is also a helpful (on a mac anyway) little menu that's titled, curiously enough, "help". When you use this, often you can figure out how to accomplish certain tasks.

NO need to teach me how to use Powerpoint, it's really obvious how to do stuff anyway. I had never used it before this summer, but in an afternoon I figured out how to quickly use it to suit my needs.

 

[geogil]

.

 

[geogil]

Ok, in a more constructive vein:

OP, Having helped people older than myself numerous times with technical issues, one thing I have noticed is that younger people learn to use computers in a much different way than people of say my parents generation. When I get a new program, I experiment and click on menus and just mess around with the program because I have a very high degree of confidence that I will not 'break' the computer. The same is not true for older adults. Many people I have worked with are afraid to experiment and try things with the computer for fear that their random experimentation will somehow irreparably 'break' the computer. My advice: try messing around more and worry about 'proper use' less, you might discover things that you didn't know were available.
-g

 

[Booner]

=

There is also a helpful (on a mac anyway) little menu that's titled, curiously enough, "help". When you use this, often you can figure out how to accomplish certain tasks.

Stop yer preachin' about how wonderful your precious little mac is Geogil, that's all I ever hear.

(Just for everyone else, Geogil and I are classmates and that was a joke, so don't worry about my personal hatred towards Macs.)

 

[digitalising]

I would say that every kid in high school should have a mandatory productivity software class so that they know what they can do with what's given to them, not just those who want to be doctors.

 

[UseUrHeadFred]

A wise question to ask, Sidharth.

When faced with the practicality of this question, it quickly becomes obvious that it is necessary to differentiate between basic computer skills, such as those necessary to run Vista or a Mac, and those proprietary skills necessary to, say, operate an MRI.

Alas, most individual computer systems are so proprietary that they vary from institution to institution. A very priminant hospital group in my area has just finished transitioning to a brand new computer system - one that is extremely efficient at even the most basic levels of history and physical examination. That is, it takes data in the patient room, and can follow the patient through the hospital, and, almost like an episode of House, go with them in real time through the MRI, through the Cath Lab, etc. Unfortunately, one could say they have had Epic difficulties getting the older physicians to use it effectively. Not to mention that it doesn't work at all well with the next biggest regional institution - which is accross the street.

I think most incoming M1s have a grasp of basic computer skills. In fact, most students at schools that require lecture attendance are a little too good at it. Too much scrabble in the classroom.

On the other hand, using powerpoint effectively (in combination with good public speaking skills) is vital at all levels of medical education. Using powerpoint right makes a lecture worth easily ten times as much as poorly presented crap. These skills scale well at all levels - presentation skills are amazingly usefull in early medical school group projects, late medical school block presentations, grand rounds, and continue to be valuable at conferences for attendings - both in your hospital and at national research presentations.

My point is this: Learning to do five star presentations with powerpoint is the single most imprtant thing one can do with computers at this time. It should be taught in medical school and, in fact, all practitioner programs.

 

[sidharth2008]

a sensible and nice reply this one.

 

[Law2Doc]

My point is this: Learning to do five star presentations with powerpoint is the single most imprtant thing one can do with computers at this time. It should be taught in medical school and, in fact, all practitioner programs.

I think you underestimate the number of people who show up to med school already quite good at powerpoint. A lot of folks use powerpoint at the college level (and these days even high school) and show up quite comfortable with it. Others of us come from prior careers where we have used it extensively. Again, it is becoming a smaller and smaller subset of med school that lacks these basic skills, and tends to be more of the attending age folks and older who as a group lack more computer/microsoft office skills than the subsequent generations. I suggest you go check out the typical US suburban high school and see how "wired" those places are these days -- it's far more impressive than whatever you are remembering from your own school days. The use of computers at a young age is pretty pervasive in the US. So no, I have to say that dedicated courses at the professional school level only will serve to bore folks. It's going to be sort of like someone who played high school basketball trying to teach the NBA how to play -- it's simply backwards. The skillset on this starts earlier and earlier with each generation, so if you wait until a professional school level to try and "teach" you waste everyone's time.