In trouble

[G0S2]

I don't think it is the cheating. It is the lack of a feeling of remorse/wrong doing and the ability to just blow it off in order to determine if very competitive specialties are still within grasp and putting down others like peds.

Also, UVA has an Honor Board rooted in tradition. What would happen to a student in the same situation there??

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[doc05]

I don't think it is the cheating. It is the lack of a feeling of remorse/wrong doing and the ability to just blow it off in order to determine if very competitive specialties are still within grasp and putting down others like peds.

Also, UVA has an Honor Board rooted in tradition. What would happen to a student in the same situation there??

actually, it IS the cheating. if you cheat in med school, you should be immediately dismissed. no second chances -- you're finished.

unfortunately, though, it sounds like dean is a sap and may very well give this shmoe a 2nd chance.

 

[DeterminedMD]

I don't think it is the cheating. It is the lack of a feeling of remorse/wrong doing and the ability to just blow it off in order to determine if very competitive specialties are still within grasp and putting down others like peds.
QUOTE]

EXACTLY! Take responsibility for your actions. Humans make mistakes. Thats a given. But accept that you made a mistake and that there will be consequences. So what happens when you are a doc and faced with very serious ethical dilemmas???? There has to be a standard of rules and consequences

 

[G0S2]

actually, it IS the cheating. if you cheat in med school, you should be immediately dismissed. no second chances -- you're finished.

unfortunately, though, it sounds like dean is a sap and may very well give this shmoe a 2nd chance.

I was responding to 10minutes. I should have quoted. I don't think it is the cheating that pissed people off as much as the disregard for what was done.

 

[Gibby Haynes]

It's kind of like when my mistress told me she was "kinda pregnant".
Shouldn't you be more concerned with not being kicked out of med school vs your concern about getting a competitive residency. And another thing, how in the world do you "kinda cheat" and have your dean on your side. Doesn't make much since.

 

[Tristero]

actually, it IS the cheating. if you cheat in med school, you should be immediately dismissed. no second chances -- you're finished.

unfortunately, though, it sounds like dean is a sap and may very well give this shmoe a 2nd chance.

dude, you're a ****ing dingus.

what he did was wrong, but you're not perfect either.

go get laid or something, you're wound WAY too tight.

 

[docbill]

I don't think it is the cheating. It is the lack of a feeling of remorse/wrong doing and the ability to just blow it off in order to determine if very competitive specialties are still within grasp and putting down others like peds.

That is the real problem!!!

 

[Fantasy Sports]

dude, you're a ****ing dingus.

what he did was wrong, but you're not perfect either.

go get laid or something, you're wound WAY too tight.

No you're missing the point. The OP shows no remorse whatsoever and demeans all the noncompetitive specialties. BEGGARS CANT BE CHOOSERS! And frankly, its disgusting that a cheater who isnt even in med school yet looks down on pediatricians, a group of physicians generally known for being in medicine for the good of mankind...

 

[fang]

Everyone makes mistakes, and yes, in extreme cases, one can make a mistake of cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I would never forgive a second cheating but, hey, we are all humans.

I don't agree-- cheating isn't a "mistake", it's something you plan to do and then carry out. You can't say "oops! I cheated on that last exam... I forgot to study again and it just happened!!"

What about all his classmates who actually worked their as$$es off while he was doing other things with his time? With all the people competing to get accepted to medical school, why should this person take the place of an equally qualified but more honest student? There are other other options out there besides medicine... go do something else.

 

[doc05]

I don't agree-- cheating isn't a "mistake", it's something you plan to do and then carry out. You can't say "oops! I cheated on that last exam... I forgot to study again and it just happened!!"

What about all his classmates who actually worked their as$$es off while he was doing other things with his time? With all the people competing to get accepted to medical school, why should this person take the place of an equally qualified but more honest student? There are other other options out there besides medicine... go do something else.

exactly the point. if the dude had tried and failed the exam -- he should get a 2nd chance, 3rd chance, whatever... but the cheating calls into question so many things that it's not even funny. to be a physician, you need sound judgment. common sense. character. you need to be honest. plus I still don't understand what "kinda cheating" is. how can you trust someone like this? would you refer your patients to a dishonest practicioner?

 

[tofurious]

Everyone makes mistakes, and yes, in extreme cases, one can make a mistake of cheating.

I think the difference is in intention. Most people make UNintentional mistakes. It's when people make intentional mistakes that people find it unforgiving a la Scott Peterson or Bill Clinton. Of course, it's the type and magnitude of the mistake that makes a whole lot of difference. Grouping all mistakes of the world into one basket is one intentional mistake in itself.

Driving 75 mph in a 65 mph zone is minimizing the situation. EVERYONE drives 75 mph in a 65 mph zone, therefore the offense seems acceptable and not everyone gets pulled over. IF you are the ONLY ONE driving 75 mph in a 65 mph zone, as hot-water's situation sounds like, then it becomes a big deal. If he is indeed as freaked out as he is, I doubt this is a 75 mph in a 65 mph zone. It also shows poor judgment on his part that he would take this matter so lightly before he performed the act that has apparently got him into hot water now (imagine a surgeon that thinks, hmmm, it must be okay for me to cut this additional artery too since... OH ****!)

 

[velo]

It's when people make intentional mistakes that people find it unforgiving a la Scott Peterson or Bill Clinton.

yeah i think those two situations were comparable how bout i rewrite that and see if you're still ok with it...

It's when people make intentional mistakes that people find it unforgivable (i think you mean to say) a la Hitler, Nixon, or Rush Limbaugh.

 

[tofurious]

find it unforgivable (i think you mean to say)

No, I think I meant what I put. Unforgiving = unwilling to forgive; unforgivable = unable to forgive. Of course, the people/acts you quoted (not sure about Rush) were far more unforgivable than Scott Petersen (the cheating part, not the murder part) and Bill Clinton.

 

[In_HOT_water]

I take the situation very seriously and I am very remorseful. I will beg to stay in school, but it is not within my control what they will decide. What I can control is whether I should continue, if I'm not dismissed. Given how much debt load I will amass and what specialty choices are available to me, I have to look at all my options.

 

[velo]

No, I think I meant what I put. Unforgiving = unwilling to forgive; unforgivable = unable to forgive. Of course, the people/acts you quoted (not sure about Rush) were far more unforgivable than Scott Petersen (the cheating part, not the murder part) and Bill Clinton.

"people find it unforgiving" still doesn't work...how about 'people are unforgiving'...

and the clinton thing was a cheap shot

 

[tofurious]

"people find it unforgiving" still doesn't work...how about 'people are unforgiving'...

and the clinton thing was a cheap shot

Hey, whatever helps you GoLytely.

 

[DrThom]

I take the situation very seriously and I am very remorseful. I will beg to stay in school, but it is not within my control what they will decide. What I can control is whether I should continue, if I'm not dismissed. Given how much debt load I will amass and what specialty choices are available to me, I have to look at all my options.

Is your debt load larger than normal debt loads?

 

[8744]

Is your debt load larger than normal debt loads?

Heck, he should just default on his loan. Or better yet, rob a bank. It's only stealing. Everybody does it. Who are we to judge?

 

[DrThom]

Heck, he should just default on his loan. Or better yet, rob a bank. It's only stealing. Everybody does it. Who are we to judge?

Exactly, what are they going to do? repossess his "education"?

I use the term education loosely in this case.

 

[stomper627]

I still want to know how something is "almost cheating"...please explain that to me. I think you either cheated or you didnt. If you did, then you obviously thought about it, thought you wouldnt get caught, but when you did, freaked....AND SOUND GUILTY!!!

 

[MD'05]

What got you into trouble in the first place was the differentiation between cheating and near-cheating. Did you do the old bathroom trick and get caught? Or did you obtain a copy of the exam in advance of the test? Do tell.

 

[RayhanS1282]

Sorry to be vague, but as you can probably guess from the situation I'm not going to give away anything that would identify the school I am from or what I did. I don't know if someone from the school might read this board.

I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I didn't know it would be so harshly viewed. I looked it like going 75 mph in a 65 mph zone. They're treating it like I did something so horribly wrong. The dean is on my side and sympathizes with me, but I don't know if that's enough. Assuming I don't get dismissed, I don't know what kind of future I can have in medicine.

What fields should I cross off my list?

ENT? Derm? Plastics?

I need to know what fields will still be available to me. Thanks.

For my money, I think you go to Yale. I am not going to pass judgement on you (b/c I don't even know if this situation is real or not). All I am going to say is that if the committee do decide to give you a second chance, I think you should go for it and don't cheat again. If you really want to be a physician, it shouldn't matter what you are doing...ped, primary care, surgery. That's my two cents.

 

[Dr Who]

I dont understand how revealing what he did will identify him or her in any way. I just find it very suspicious that this person just keeps giving us enough info to keep the intrigue up and not let the thread die.
If this person really wanted help he would have been more specific, yet he's not. He knows that we are all either suspicious or blaming him for dishonesty yet he doesnt clarify what he did so that we may give him or her our best advice. Its almost as if he is doing it on purpose and we are all going along with it.

 

[G0S2]

I dont understand how revealing what he did will identify him or her in any way. I just find it very suspicious that this person just keeps giving us enough info to keep the intrigue up and not let the thread die.
If this person really wanted help he would have been more specific, yet he's not. He knows that we are all either suspicious or blaming him for dishonesty yet he doesnt clarify what he did so that we may give him or her our best advice. Its almost as if he is doing it on purpose and we are all going along with it.

Again, my theory, a troll for exactly those reasons.

 

[RAwe]

" if I can get a 9-5 job for 70K+/year?"
What kind of job can you get for 70 grand a year immediately with just a bachelors?

Bachelors these days fetch you 30 grand to 40 grand and MAYBE 55 grand tops. To get 70 grand you need your masters and beyond. If you'll spend at least two years in a masters program, you might as well stay in med school.

 

[gary5]

Well, you either cheated or you didn't. If you are dismissed or have to repeat the year, then you cheated. And if you really didn't cheat, then you should be able to contest the decision. Forget the technicalities.

If you get to stay, then you'll get to be a doctor. And no, you won't get the competitive specialties. But you'll be fine.

 

[Lebesgue]

You either cheated or not, so get off the fence. You know whether you did or not so come clean, since it's anonymous anyway. If you did, they should send you packing immediately if not sooner! As far as those who imply the pressures of med school somehow justify cheating, you don't belong in med school. It's not a lack of compassion, it's called integrity and you can't take a course on it in college. The pressures will only increase as we progress, so this cheating thing will turn into a life threatening decision thing.

If you know you didn't cheat, you had better plead your case ASAP and probably in the form of a Powerpoint presentation, with graphs and charts on why you should stay...

There is a place for cheaters, and it involves handing out grocery carts at WalMart, not making life and death decisions...

This has been a public service announcement.



Also, to be clear, I am sure there are plenty of upstanding people that hand out grocery carts at WalMart with lots of integrity, so if you were offended just pick your favorite unskilled job. In truth I have always found them to be nice and freindly.

 

[Elysium]

I think the point is not that you cheated per se, but the fact that you have the balls to be hand wringing about matching in friggin' derm or ENT. Are you high? There are people who work their asses off in school, that don't cheat, that sacrifice a lot, to get those spots. Do you really honestly think a half assed cheater like you deserves to go into ENT? You don't deserve to treat a hamster with your sh1t ass attitude. Beg and plead to get back into school so you're not up to your ass in debt and pray that you match somewhere. Yes, this is going to effect your future. Don't be a ******. Why would they match a cheater higher than someone who has never cheated with the same stats? Just makes sense. Now, go get a life.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Well, you either cheated or you didn't.

Some of the posts on this thread are really defective. I suppose, by definition, you either did something or you didn't. But, let's apply a beyond-pre-school level of analysis here.

You either killed someone or you didn't, right? If you plan it in advance, lay in wait, and then drag out the person's death is is the same as if you catch your wife cheating and, in a fury, shoot her in the head once? As if a burglar is in your house robbing you and you plant a bullet in his head? As if you are being mugged and you grab the blade the other person is threatening you with and stab and kill them with it? As if you are driving on a foggy day and you run over a pedestrian?

Cheating could mean he was in a small-group session and copied someone else's essay and submitted it as his own or copied the text from up-to-date and submitted it as his answer or it could mean he planted his back-pack in the bathroom and then referred to his notes during the exam. There are different degrees of academic dishonesty, and I wouldn't just say, "Either he cheated or he didn't" because there is a lot of room for magnitude of the offense.

Also, no one has proposed this yet, but he should probably speak to a lawyer about what his options are, and how to best resist this, especially if they plan on dismissing him and there isn't exactly a lot to lose.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

There is a place for cheaters, and it involves handing out grocery carts at WalMart, not making life and death decisions...

This has been a public service announcement.



Also, to be clear, I am sure there are plenty of upstanding people that hand out grocery carts at WalMart with lots of integrity, so if you were offended just pick your favorite unskilled job. In truth I have always found them to be nice and freindly.

These posts are so pathetic in their naivette; it almost boggles the mind. Maybe you don't follow current events, but from the news media (Jayson Blair, Stephen Glass, arguably Dan Rather) to academic historians (Doris Kearns Goodwin, Stephen Ambrose, and a few others), there have been a bunch of very famous and very successful people who have engaged in GROSS levels of flagrant cheating and "academic dishonesty." Some have been fired, but others are still holding their positions, and all of them will still be employed in non-Wal-Mart jobs for their rest of their lives. Someone already posted a study about 75% of lawyers having cheated in their lives. Get off you high horse and use your brain to see the world more honestly.

 

[G0S2]

Some of the posts on this thread are really defective. I suppose, by definition, you either did something or you didn't. But, let's apply a beyond-pre-school level of analysis here.

You either killed someone or you didn't, right? If you plan it in advance, lay in wait, and then drag out the person's death is is the same as if you catch your wife cheating and, in a fury, shoot her in the head once? As if a burglar is in your house robbing you and you plant a bullet in his head? As if you are being mugged and you grab the blade the other person is threatening you with and stab and kill them with it? As if you are driving on a foggy day and you run over a pedestrian?

Cheating could mean he was in a small-group session and copied someone else's essay and submitted it as his own or copied the text from up-to-date and submitted it as his answer or it could mean he planted his back-pack in the bathroom and then referred to his notes during the exam. There are different degrees of academic dishonesty, and I wouldn't just say, "Either he cheated or he didn't" because there is a lot of room for magnitude of the offense.

Also, no one has proposed this yet, but he should probably speak to a lawyer about what his options are, and how to best resist this, especially if they plan on dismissing him and there isn't exactly a lot to lose.

I agree that there are many ways one can cheat in medical school. The point is I doubt the student handbook or honor code at this person’s school lists the 100 different actions that would be considered cheating. Accordingly, I do not feel as though a committee would try to differentiate between what this student did and what he/she could have done whether it is a backpack in the bathroom or plagiarism. Unfortunately medical schools do not have the type of judgment system where you could make an argument for premeditated, accidental, or "heat of passion" cheating. Thus, maybe the lawyer and an outside forum for his plea is a good idea.

 

[MD'05]

Cheating could mean he was in a small-group session and copied someone else's essay and submitted it as his own or copied the text from up-to-date and submitted it as his answer or it could mean he planted his back-pack in the bathroom and then referred to his notes during the exam. There are different degrees of academic dishonesty, and I wouldn't just say, "Either he cheated or he didn't" because there is a lot of room for magnitude of the offense.

The former is called plagiarism. The latter is called CHEATING!

 

[tofurious]

If I were the dean, I'd offer this guy the option of staying in school but having this "incident" in his permanent record, including Dean's Letter. This way he has to decide whether he wants to finish med school and take chances with residency directors or drop out on his own now.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

The former is called plagiarism. The latter is called CHEATING!

Plagiarism is a form of cheating. For your reference,

cheat
v. tr.
To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
To elude; escape: cheat death.

v. intr.
To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
Informal. To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.

 

[Lebesgue]

These posts are so pathetic in their naivette; it almost boggles the mind. Maybe you don't follow current events, but from the news media (Jayson Blair, Stephen Glass, arguably Dan Rather) to academic historians (Doris Kearns Goodwin, Stephen Ambrose, and a few others), there have been a bunch of very famous and very successful people who have engaged in GROSS levels of flagrant cheating and "academic dishonesty." Some have been fired, but others are still holding their positions, and all of them will still be employed in non-Wal-Mart jobs for their rest of their lives. Someone already posted a study about 75% of lawyers having cheated in their lives. Get off you high horse and use your brain to see the world more honestly.

Wow, you're brilliant...

I guess that makes it ok. Or maybe they are also losers who don't deserve to be in important positions. I suppose also that lawyers have a certain stereotype due to data you provide, but maybe we should all live life by your moral and ethical relativity...

Or not. I'm happy to stay on the "horse", if that's what you're going to call morals, values, integrity, etc. How can seeing "the world more honestly" include accepting dishonesty? Thanks for the post. It only furthers my resolve to get as many people on the horse as possible, since that's where phyisicians should be.

"Watching Waiting"... at least that's accurate.

 

[beanbean]

Ok - I'm as curious as the rest of you re: what he actually did? Something close to cheating, but not exactly cheating...I have no idea what this might be. Perhaps the OP means that he did not cheat in the 'classical' sense, as in copying answers on an exam or looking at a cheat sheet?? Well, I really have no idea what you did, but I would like to know.

What concerns me most is the fact you just seemed to be concerned about your chances at a 'competitive' specialty. I could understand if you have dreamed all your life of being an ENT guy and now being scared that it will no longer be an option. However, you just list a bunch a competitive specialties and whine that you might have to do *GASP* FP!!!

Some advice:

1) Atone for your sins and accept responsibility for you mistakes.
2) Feel bad about what you did and not just the fact you got caught
3) Try to learn something from the experience that might make you a more just and ethical person
4) If lucky enough not to be thrown out of medicine, pick your specialty based on what you enjoy, not what is a "competitive" resisdency

 

[JennyW]

Wow, you're brilliant...

I guess that makes it ok. Or maybe they are also losers who don't deserve to be in important positions. I suppose also that lawyers have a certain stereotype due to data you provide, but maybe we should all live life by your moral and ethical relativity...

Or not. I'm happy to stay on the "horse", if that's what you're going to call morals, values, integrity, etc. How can seeing "the world more honestly" include accepting dishonesty? Thanks for the post. It only furthers my resolve to get as many people on the horse as possible, since that's where phyisicians should be.

"Watching Waiting"... at least that's accurate.

For me, it's been very interesting watching these discusions play out especially in light of published research showing that 25% of medical students admit to cheating at some point in their professional training.

The original poster has been (rightly or wrongly) virtually drawn and quartered for this incident of cheating.

However, a couple of months back I was mercilessly assaulted for suggesting that someone who has a felony drug conviction not pursue medical school because they might have trouble getting on insurance panels and obtaining a DEA number and for suggesting that current med students think long and hard before engaging in illegal drug use. I was referred to as a "stuck up prude" and told to "spark up a blunt."

Not sure I completely understand all the moral relatavism going on here.

Jenny

 

[MD'05]

For me, it's been very interesting watching these discusions play out especially in light of published research showing that 25% of medical students admit to cheating at some point in their professional training.

The original poster has been (rightly or wrongly) virtually drawn and quartered for this incident of cheating.

However, a couple of months back I was mercilessly assaulted for suggesting that someone who has a felony drug conviction not pursue medical school because they might have trouble getting on insurance panels and obtaining a DEA number and for suggesting that current med students think long and hard before engaging in illegal drug use. I was referred to as a "stuck up prude" and told to "spark up a blunt."

Not sure I completely understand all the moral relatavism going on here.

Jenny

I would say 25% is an underestimate. Probably more like 33% if you include all the ways that students cheat - from the most innocent forms to the most blatant.

Who called you a prude? The person you counceled or some admissions committee member? It's common sense that someone with a felony DRUG conviction should not be a doctor. The temptation would be too great to either use or sell.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

For me, it's been very interesting watching these discusions play out especially in light of published research showing that 25% of medical students admit to cheating at some point in their professional training.

The original poster has been (rightly or wrongly) virtually drawn and quartered for this incident of cheating.

However, a couple of months back I was mercilessly assaulted for suggesting that someone who has a felony drug conviction not pursue medical school because they might have trouble getting on insurance panels and obtaining a DEA number and for suggesting that current med students think long and hard before engaging in illegal drug use. I was referred to as a "stuck up prude" and told to "spark up a blunt."

Not sure I completely understand all the moral relatavism going on here.

Jenny

Not sure what you think is hard to understand. Any individual thread on these boards has a relatively small number of people offering opinions on it. Sometimes you get eight moral relativists and two moral absolutists, other times you get five and five, and other times you get two and eight.

With that post about the guy with a drug conviction, I think it started off with a decent number of outraged, outraged people who couldn't believe someone could use drugs and even contemplate being a med student or physician (even though I happen to know of eight to twelve med students who go to a particular med student's house and share a bong after exams), and then a bunch of more nuanced people came in and added some post-kindgergarden-level morality to the thread.

This whole thread has, admittedly, been entertaining because we don't know what the guy actually did.

 

[doc05]

These posts are so pathetic in their naivette; it almost boggles the mind. Maybe you don't follow current events, but from the news media (Jayson Blair, Stephen Glass, arguably Dan Rather) to academic historians (Doris Kearns Goodwin, Stephen Ambrose, and a few others), there have been a bunch of very famous and very successful people who have engaged in GROSS levels of flagrant cheating and "academic dishonesty." Some have been fired, but others are still holding their positions, and all of them will still be employed in non-Wal-Mart jobs for their rest of their lives. Someone already posted a study about 75% of lawyers having cheated in their lives. Get off you high horse and use your brain to see the world more honestly.

what's your point exactly? are you comparing physicians to historians? when was the last time Doris Goodwin was responsible for 60 critically ill inpatients? who exactly is looking to Stephen Glass for advice/counseling on intimate/personal matters?

the point is that a physicians work actually matters. people's lives depend on it. our patients expect honesty. noone cares if a journalist lies -- there are no consequences. but in medicine, we ARE kept to a higher standard. so perhaps you should get off your high horse. cheating is wrong. the dude should be kicked out; and if he takes the other 25% of cheaters with him, we'll all be better off for it.

 

[Dr Who]

I have no idea why we even bother. Right now this guy is laughing his ass off. Its obvious this guy is a Troll baiting us.

 

[In_HOT_water]

The people on SDN sure are a bunch of self-righteous, know-it-alls, huh?

 

[uclabruin2003]

your education is a sunk cost. in economics point of view either way you have to pay the loans. the decision is to continue with more loans. another 3 years will cost about 150k i think its worth economically 150k to do that. however....morally and whatever...thats another question. good luck.

 

[Domitian]

Sort of cheating? I wonder what that was. My guess is he took his cell phone into the bathroom. "Yes Regis, I'd like to phone a friend..."

And anyway, I think what really bothered some people was the whole dissing peds thing. Of course, I'm not calling for blood. This guy may well be a jackhole, but so what? If I had a nickel for every SOB who looked down on primary care, well, let's just say I wouldn't be driving a 1992 Ford with 110k miles on it.

Hey Hot Water: maybe you should consider pathology: I hear they make mad bank, and it's 9 to 5, AND uncompetitive.

 

[nabeel76]

I sure as hell hope not. your cheating demonstrates poor character. and you can't get a high step 1 score if you cheat on the exam since security is VERY tight.

ENT, ophtho, ortho?? what is wrong with you? students work their tails off for 4 grueling years just to have a shot at these specialties...and they don't cheat.

sounds like you are sorry for getting caught, not for having cheated. I hope you get dismissed. we don't need any dishonest doctors in this world.

The OP never said he cheated, he said he did something as close to cheating as possible. Maybe he gave somebody else an answer, who knows.

 

[aerial]

Two scenarios exist for the committee deciding the OP's fate:

"Vote for dismissal due to academic dishonesty?" "Yes."

vs.

"Does the school wish to lose 4 years of tuition?" "Hell no!"

OP, most schools are just as greedy and manipulative as you. For your sake, the latter argument will most probably win out. You may be one lucky bastard, but you'll be respected by few.

As much as we hope that you are a troll, there are many people like you who have made it through medical school without disciplinary action and ultimately become our colleagues. It's terrible how the system works.

 

[Dr Who]

Two scenarios exist for the committee deciding the OP's fate:

"Vote for dismissal due to academic dishonesty?" "Yes."

vs.

"Does the school wish to lose 4 years of tuition?" "Hell no!"

OP, most schools are just as greedy and manipulative as you. For your sake, the latter argument will most probably win out. You may be one lucky bastard, but you'll be respected by few.

As much as we hope that you are a troll, there are many people like you who have made it through medical school without disciplinary action and ultimately become our colleagues. It's terrible how the system works.

Thats assuming its a private med school. If its a state school, where all the employees are working for the state, they could care less if he was booted from med school. As far as private schools are concerned if he is booted then they have one seat open for a transfer student, and believe me, there will be someone applying to transfer at some point to that school.

 

[jvarga]

To get back on track with the original post, I have a couple of points to make. A violation of the honors policy is a violation period, regardless if it was "almost cheating" or flat out cheating. As such, it should be dealt with by the appropriate panel at the medical school (which, obviously, is already occurring). They'll review the case and base their decision on many factors, most of which are highly individual. The decision is usually final and will, contrary to many of SDNers wishes, be enforced as they see fit.
Believe it or not, this situation happens more frequently than any of us would like to think and it is usually dealt with in a confidential way. Most "cheaters" are not expelled as most people would think, and are usually given a second chance after a hefty punishment (failing the course or the whole year, having to sit out for a year, including the incident in your deans letter when applying to residencies, etc.). As many have suggested, this black mark will weigh heavily and make it difficult for you in attracting a competitive residency. However, don't confuse difficult with impossible. If you play your cards right, chances are you will still have a decent chance in getting a good position.
Lastly, I do not wish to encourage anybody to cheat nor do I want to pat any cheaters on the back. I look down upon anyone who has done so and wish the system would be less lenient on those people who had the cojones to cheat while their classmates worked hard in an honest fashion. However, remember that everybody has different opinions (as evident in this thread) and, as such, some residencies will be more understanding than others. As an example of this, somebody compared this incident to Clinton on a previous thread. To continue with that comparison, Clinton was impeached and practically crucified for lying about sleeping with an intern. What has happened to Bush for a lie that has resulted in the tragic deaths of many thousands of people (including our own brave soldiers)? He gets reelected. Think about that.

 

[Frijolero]

For me, it's been very interesting watching these discusions play out especially in light of published research showing that 25% of medical students admit to cheating at some point in their professional training.

The original poster has been (rightly or wrongly) virtually drawn and quartered for this incident of cheating.

However, a couple of months back I was mercilessly assaulted for suggesting that someone who has a felony drug conviction not pursue medical school because they might have trouble getting on insurance panels and obtaining a DEA number and for suggesting that current med students think long and hard before engaging in illegal drug use. I was referred to as a "stuck up prude" and told to "spark up a blunt."

Not sure I completely understand all the moral relatavism going on here.

Jenny

Ahhh, you want to tangle some more, Jenny? Bring the pain.

I can understand the poster's "kinda cheating". Say, for example, he did a case write-up and in his biblio included a source or two that he checked out from the library but didn't even touch.

It's funny that people are telling him he should feel bad. Ain't gonna happen. I mean, it wouldn't happen if it were me. If I got caught cheating I would be too freaked about getting booted to feel anything other than scared. I mean seriously, when you got in a fight on the playground when you were 10 did you feel remorseful when you got sent to the principal's office? Hell no, you were worried about getting busted.

I like the post about failures, but not cheaters, being given another chance. I think most any school lets people have multiple tries before dropping them, so the OP couldn't have been concerned about that. Wow, talk about something coming back to bite you in the ass. Reminds me of my D in Ochem a little.

-Frijolero

 

[stinkycheese]

Some of the posts on this thread are really defective. I suppose, by definition, you either did something or you didn't. But, let's apply a beyond-pre-school level of analysis here.

You either killed someone or you didn't, right? If you plan it in advance, lay in wait, and then drag out the person's death is is the same as if you catch your wife cheating and, in a fury, shoot her in the head once? As if a burglar is in your house robbing you and you plant a bullet in his head? As if you are being mugged and you grab the blade the other person is threatening you with and stab and kill them with it? As if you are driving on a foggy day and you run over a pedestrian?

Last I checked, there was no such thing as "cheating in self-defense" or "cheating as a crime of passion". The analogies don't really work, although I see your point about degrees of severity.

could mean he was in a small-group session and copied someone else's essay and submitted it as his own or copied the text from up-to-date and submitted it as his answer or it could mean he planted his back-pack in the bathroom and then referred to his notes during the exam. There are different degrees of academic dishonesty, and I wouldn't just say, "Either he cheated or he didn't" because there is a lot of room for magnitude of the offense.

I see all of the examples you've listed as equally wrong. You don't? They're all cheating.