In trouble

[stinkycheese]

Someone already posted a study about 75% of lawyers having cheated in their lives.

That's why they're lawyers, and we're doctors. You don't cheat when you're dealing with people's lives.

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[Flobber]

That's why they're lawyers, and we're doctors. You don't cheat when you're dealing with people's lives.

YEAH! Don't you understand how much better we are than lawyers?! You don't get it... we are MORALLY SUPERIOR and if someone on an anonymous forum admits to anything less than moral superiority, it shames us all. We are MEDICAL students, not some rinky-dink lawyers.

All sarcasm.

 

[stinkycheese]

YEAH! Don't you understand how much better we are than lawyers?! You don't get it... we are MORALLY SUPERIOR and if someone on an anonymous forum admits to anything less than moral superiority, it shames us all. We are MEDICAL students, not some rinky-dink lawyers.

All sarcasm.

YEAH! And don't you know that everyone who says anything has a TOTALLY EXTREME OPINION? And NO ONE ever uses SARCASM of their own?


Idiot.

 

[Flobber]

YEAH! And don't you know that everyone who says anything has a TOTALLY EXTREME OPINION? And NO ONE ever uses SARCASM of their own?


Idiot.

What?

 

[MSHell]

All you people who think CHEATING IS SO WRONG obviously didn't take advantage of the semester abroad opportunity in undergrad. The level of cheating in European schools, in any faculty/department is beyond anything any of you have seen here. It is child's play in any north american school in comparsion. Not only is cheating condoned by many profs in europe (outside UK and Ireland), it is expected.

European physicians go on to be great physicians, researchers and nobel prize laureates as well. And some go on to be mediocre. Wow! just like here!

In all honesty, I fail to see why one would cheat if it had the potential of getting them booted from school? (yes, no remorse, just feeling the consequences).

How many of you would cheat if there were no consequences?

 

[Fantasy Sports]

All you people who think CHEATING IS SO WRONG obviously didn't take advantage of the semester abroad opportunity in undergrad. The level of cheating in European schools, in any faculty/department is beyond anything any of you have seen here. It is child's play in any north american school in comparsion. Not only is cheating condoned by many profs in europe (outside UK and Ireland), it is expected.

You're full of crap. I studied abroad in both London and Madrid and you couldn't be more wrong. Don't think just because you cheat or condone it that everyone else does. Wow, talk about speaking from your arse...

 

[WatchingWaiting]

You're full of crap. I studied abroad in both London and Madrid and you couldn't be more wrong. Don't think just because you cheat or condone it that everyone else does. Wow, talk about speaking from your arse...

He's not talking from his ass at all. I'm sure there is some variation from region to region within countries, but many parts of Europe are notorious for flagrant cheating. I doubt it's condoned by the faculty though. I heard from several faculty at my undergrad, who did visiting professorships in Europe, about rampant cheating in Europe. This was in the context of our school's honor code and how the European students laughed their asses off at what would happen if they were given unproctored exams under an "Honor Code" (ie: basically everyone said they would cheat and said the prof was nuts to expect anything otherwise).

I think the relative difference between US and European attitudes is probably related to the 90+% religosity in this country ("I'm cheating on God") to the 50% atheism in much of Europe ("I only live once, and if I don't pass this final exam, I'm going to have to repeat this entire damn year"). I mean, Hell, there are several countries in Europe that freely air pornos on tv after about 11 pm at night. You show a little cleavage in this country during the superbowl and you get millions of prudes throwing fits about their innocent children who have never uttered a profanity in their lives being corrupted.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Last I checked, there was no such thing as "cheating in self-defense" or "cheating as a crime of passion". The analogies don't really work, although I see your point about degrees of severity.



I see all of the examples you've listed as equally wrong. You don't? They're all cheating.

Sorry, but I think you might be suffering from a bit of delusion. I know that at least 50% of my classmates have directly copy-and-pasted Up-to-date or MDConsult in several paragraph blocks and submitted it for small-group-session write-ups. I felt vaguely guilty initially, but when I actually consulted with other students and realized just how rampant it was, I adjusted. Who has time to spend five hours to actually figure out well enough to be able to write in their own words the pathophysiology of some random disease for a low-yield small-group session during the first-year of medical school? Hence, copy-and-paste. I guess if you want to argue that 50% of med students are cheaters and lacking in integrity, go right ahead.

 

[tofurious]

Last I checked, there was no such thing as "cheating in self-defense" or "cheating as a crime of passion".

Cheating by reason of insanity... ? I think the OP is claiming something like 2nd degree cheating - didn't plan on it, it just happened to him when he was standing around. It wasn't even out of his own free will! (Or, his fiancee was held hostage and he HAD to cheat to save her life.)

 

[MSHell]

You're full of crap. I studied abroad in both London and Madrid and you couldn't be more wrong. Don't think just because you cheat or condone it that everyone else does. Wow, talk about speaking from your arse...

I did state that rampant cheating did not occur in UK and Ireland (London is in the UK!!). This is what WatchingWaiting was talking about - religiosity.

I have studied in Europe where no honor code had to be signed and what are students to do when the prof walks out of a final exam for 5-10 minutes? I have seen it all - open books, people taking out notes, talk, text message, sign language, IPod and "can I go to the bathroom?" Actually, I have seen all those with profs in the room too.

It's like doping and professional sports, if you're the only one who doesn't do it, you are at a disadvantage. Does it make it right? No.

Cheating in North American institutions carries severe penalties, therefore I absolutely do not condone it here. However, if a prof will just turn a blind eye in certain european countries and everyone is cheating, why should you be the only one to fail but be able to say that you took the moral high ground. You'll have to repeat the entire year and your classmates will laugh.

It's just a totally different philosophy and the point I was trying to make was that there are good and bad physicians everywhere, regardless of the level of cheating. If you really feel the need to memorize the Kreb's cycle to death and you think it will help your patients infinitely, nobody on this forum is going to stop you.

 

[stoic]

I did state that rampant cheating did not occur in UK and Ireland (London is in the UK!!). This is what WatchingWaiting was talking about - religiosity.

I have studied in Europe where no honor code had to be signed and what are students to do when the prof walks out of a final exam for 5-10 minutes? I have seen it all - open books, people taking out notes, talk, text message, sign language, IPod and "can I go to the bathroom?" Actually, I have seen all those with profs in the room too.

It's like doping and professional sports, if you're the only one who doesn't do it, you are at a disadvantage. Does it make it right? No.

Cheating in North American institutions carries severe penalties, therefore I absolutely do not condone it here. However, if a prof will just turn a blind eye in certain european countries and everyone is cheating, why should you be the only one to fail but be able to say that you took the moral high ground. You'll have to repeat the entire year and your classmates will laugh.

It's just a totally different philosophy and the point I was trying to make was that there are good and bad physicians everywhere, regardless of the level of cheating. If you really feel the need to memorize the Kreb's cycle to death and you think it will help your patients infinitely, nobody on this forum is going to stop you.

dude i hate to over simplify my response, but we're in america not europe. the standards here are no cheating.

 

[MSHell]

dude i hate to over simplify my response, but we're in america not europe. the standards here are no cheating.

1) Like I said, I don't condone it here. But people here have been equating cheating with bad physicians.

2) I find all your posts regarding med school entertaining considering you haven't even STARTED!

3) Why do people think I'm a "dude"?

 

[stoic]

1) Like I said, I don't condone it here. But people here have been equating cheating with bad physicians.

2) I find all your posts regarding med school entertaining considering you haven't even STARTED!

3) Why do people think I'm a "dude"?

what, i need to start med school to know not to cheat?

and from now on you'll be dudette.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

I did state that rampant cheating did not occur in UK and Ireland (London is in the UK!!). This is what WatchingWaiting was talking about - religiosity.

I have studied in Europe where no honor code had to be signed and what are students to do when the prof walks out of a final exam for 5-10 minutes? I have seen it all - open books, people taking out notes, talk, text message, sign language, IPod and "can I go to the bathroom?" Actually, I have seen all those with profs in the room too.

First off I mentioned two cities, including Madrid, where I didnt encounter any of this (even if you exclude London). Secondly, maybe it was because of the nature of the institution, but I did not see any of that going on and most of my classmates weren't American.

But in any case, Im kind of disappointed that this is yet another SDN thread that has violated common sense. I mean, can you actually believe we are arguing about whether cheating is acceptable in medicine?

Take a step back and thing about what you are arguing for. Its not the cheating persay that should disturb you, its the "I need to get this done at ANY COST" attitude of cheaters that should bother you. Its not like they're suddenly going to do everything the "right" way once they are out of school. They are just going to carry on their habits into their medical careers-- and if you havent taken a look, a good proportion of lawsuits are against a FEW physicians that do cut corners. Why even allow them in our profession?

Before we (and I mean this for the entire thread) keep arguing. Take a step back and think do you REALLY want to argue that it is OK to cheat, because that is in fact what you guys are saying. And if you do, lets please start another thread about other needless morals-- like how murder is OK since some countries have overpopulation and might need some help trimming it down

(of course, Im not saying cheating is even REMOTELY on the same level as murder, but since we are being moral nihilists here...)

 

[scootad.]

all he was saying is cheating on a basic science test in MS 1-2 has no correlation with how good a doctor you will become.

I fail to see how being able to come up with the enzyme at the 4th reaction of the Kreb Cycle unassisted will help one become a better doctor. Much of the minutiae we learn early in med school (esp. biochem) has very little clinical relevance and for us to be tested on it is a bit absurd. The important minutiae in med school will be repeated again anyway (on shelf and board exams, which you cant by the way cheat on without getting caught) so in the end it dont matter.

 

[MarchMover]

I agree that your grades in MS 1-2 have little to do with what kind of doctor you will become, but cheating on an exam (or almost cheating) (or almost cheating and then attempting to save your guilty conscious on a an anonymous forum) reveals a serious deficit in judgment and character... two of the most important things a physician can develop.

Those of you trying to downplay the seriousness of this type of behavior should take pause... you will be under MUCH greater pressure as a MS 3 and 4, and even greater as a house officer, and the temptation to cut corners will grow in a weak individual such as yourself.

I hope that your school takes appropriate action, and makes this incident part of your permanent record. Perhaps you will learn from this , and it will help you to grow as a human being. It takes a lot more than an A average and a 240 on the boards to make a good physician, my friend.

As for me, I aced medical school without cheating, without almost cheating, and without almost almost cheating. I worked like a dog to get to where I am today, in a very competitive fellowship grooming me for a VERY nice job. My patients will benefit from my hard work, and they will get something from me they can't get from a cheater.... honesty.

 

[scootad.]

I personally dont subscribe to the overly simplistic slippery slope theory of cheating, that is once a cheater always a cheater. I think most people (or at the very least intelligent medical students) should be able to understand the differences between cheating on an MS1 biochem test and later "cutting corners" as a house officer/resident/attending. They are totally different scenarios with totally different motivations behind each. This integrity argument misses the point.

 

[Flobber]

(or almost cheating and then attempting to save your guilty conscious on a an anonymous forum)

As for me, I aced medical school without cheating, without almost cheating, and without almost almost cheating. I worked like a dog to get to where I am today, in a very competitive fellowship grooming me for a VERY nice job. My patients will benefit from my hard work, and they will get something from me they can't get from a cheater.... honesty.

Yes, seeking consolation for an as-of-yet undefined transgression at medical school at an anonymous website is MUCH more pathetic than using the same site to boast of your superior work ethic and "very competitive" fellowship.

 

[MSHell]

all he was saying is cheating on a basic science test in MS 1-2 has no correlation with how good a doctor you will become.

I fail to see how being able to come up with the enzyme at the 4th reaction of the Kreb Cycle unassisted will help one become a better doctor. Much of the minutiae we learn early in med school (esp. biochem) has very little clinical relevance and for us to be tested on it is a bit absurd. The important minutiae in med school will be repeated again anyway (on shelf and board exams, which you cant by the way cheat on without getting caught) so in the end it dont matter.

This is exactly my point. I think we are on the same page. Although they seem to like you more than me.

 

[stoic]

This is exactly my point. I think we are on the same page. Although they seem to like you more than me.

i agree with you guys 100% that cheating during years 1 and 2 probably won't make a difference in as to your skill as a physician (assuming you cheat only a little... if you had to cheat to pass that would be a different story)

it's the principle of the matter that gets to me. people shouldn't cheat. it's that simple. i'm a TA for undergraduate labs and i bust my students for cheating whenver i see it. i know other TA's that look the other way when they see students looking at another's paper, but i don't. your work should be your own.

 

[funkless]

Even in a non-competative residency you will gross at least twice as much as $70,000 per year.

ON WHAT PLANET??????

 

[mshheaddoc]

The people on SDN sure are a bunch of self-righteous, know-it-alls, huh?

Ok, while I sympathize with your situation ... you can't be serious that you think you can actually continue on a "high" track medical career with academic dishonesty on your record. No matter what you did, you are ****ed and need to realize that (which obviously you do). You won't elaborate so of course everyone here is going to be pissed off that there is someone who was academically dishonest who actually could be competing with them for a derm spot? I realize you don't want to post anything about your situation, but what do you really expect? Noone knows your situation, honestly and I don't really care. Whether you cheated or not, you knew it was wrong. Although the dean may be sympathetic to your plight, I don't see why we would have to be here You dish ish, you get ish in my book. I would say I wish you luck on your situation ... hopefully you can make the best of this. And also be an example to others on what NOT to do.

 

[MarchMover]

Coming from FLobber, who has not even made it through medical school yet, I guess you know more than me about what happens in residency and fellowship.

I was not boasting, but making the point that you do not need to cheat to achieve a high level of success in our profession.

And as for the cheaters, and those who don't think an honor code matters in our profession, make sure that your fingers are crossed when you take the Hippocratic Oath, cause it's clear what you are here for, and it ain't the patients.

Do everyone a favor and go to Law School. At least then I don't have to spend my teaching rounds probing people's honesty while I attempt to teach them about medicine.

 

[Flobber]

Coming from FLobber, who has not even made it through medical school yet, I guess you know more than me about what happens in residency and fellowship.

You don't need an MD to point out a self-righteous douchebag.

 

[jesse14]

Have you considered going to FSU... for chiropractor's school?

And they would let in cheaters with a red flag on their transcript?

I DOUBT it!

Give chiropractic respect. I am SOO sick of the ignorince of some of you people who write chiropractic off as a joke.
Just because it's not traditional medicine does NOT mean it's bad at all.

( I am not a DC nor DC student, just a person who values on aspects of health care and the work they do)

 

[Allygator89]

And they would let in cheaters with a red flag on their transcript?

I DOUBT it!

Give chiropractic respect. I am SOO sick of the ignorince of some of you people who write chiropractic off as a joke.
Just because it's not traditional medicine does NOT mean it's bad at all.

( I am not a DC nor DC student, just a person who values on aspects of health care and the work they do)

This is NOT an argument you even want to touch. Search for threads that discuss DCs and MDs. Don't keep posting here. It isn't worth the time to read the BS and ignorance that is going to start flowing. Save your breath. It isn't worth arguing over.

 

[BackTalk]

This is NOT an argument you even want to touch. Search for threads that discuss DCs and MDs. Don't keep posting here. It isn't worth the time to read the BS and ignorance that is going to start flowing. Save your breath. It isn't worth arguing over.

From your post I have a hard time telling if your saying “give it up because you will never change the minds of the members of this board” or you are saying “give it up because your not welcome here because you support chiropractic” Which is it?

 

[MD'05]

If a medical student is unable to resist the urge to cheat on exam now, what is to prevent that person as a doctor from committing insurance / medicare fraud, falsification of medical records, lying to patients, etc.? Nothing! The key is to either be born with moral fiber and have it nurtured throughout the formative years or develop it rapidly while undergoing medical education. What separates medical doctors from other professions is the belief by society that these individuals will possess an innate honesty. That is why it is so sickening when a medical student lies or cheats.

 

[Allygator89]

From your post I have a hard time telling if your saying “give it up because you will never change the minds of the members of this board” or you are saying “give it up because your not welcome here because you support chiropractic” Which is it?

I am saying Give it up because you will never change the minds of the members of this board. It is an argument that is fought every few months and if you are really bored, search for the threads. They consistently pop up and it is usually the same old arguments.
I have read your posts before, have PMed you (showing support for you and chiros) and have decided that this is one argument that isn't worth fighting with these people. You can only do so much with those that arent' willing to listen.

 

[BackTalk]

I am saying Give it up because you will never change the minds of the members of this board. It is an argument that is fought every few months and if you are really bored, search for the threads. They consistently pop up and it is usually the same old arguments.
I have read your posts before, have PMed you (showing support for you and chiros) and have decided that this is one argument that isn't worth fighting with these people. You can only do so much with those that arent' willing to listen.

Thanks for your support and I know what you mean about some of the people on these boards. No matter what they say, it won't stop people from seeking alternative treatments and when those treatments work, these doctors will look like a fool.

Like you were saying "do whats right for the patient". Personally, this place is a place for me to come and kill time between patients. I know what I say won't change all their minds but it just might change a few.

 

[jesse14]

I've read virtually every chiropractic thread on the SDN forum and I know that most MD's and MD students here don't like it at all, but that will NOT stop me from defending it. If chiropractors were on this forum bad mouthing MD's work then I would be doing the same thing because MD's have a critical role in heath care. DC's are effective, they've worked hard for they degree, and they deserve our respect. You don't have to like what they do, but should at least respect it (I know I do). It's sad when I read that I should just "give it up" when it comes to discussing this matter because I simply won't. I will argue until my wrists are burning from CT syndrome (due to all the typing . Many people and even famous people such as Arnold schwarzinager (sp)??, Madonna, The Unites states Olympic men's basketball team ALL use and swear by chiropractic. The US men’s basketball team hired a chiropractor because of a vote the players had to have one with them in Athens. This tells me people are getting much needed relief out of chiropractic. Oh yea, the Men's rowing team also used chiropractic while in Athens. Maybe that all means nothing to most of you, but i just HATE it when people bad moth another PROFESSION just because they don't like and even more so, don't understand what's behind it! I don't want to offend anyone here because i feel privileged to be able to talk to all you smart and dedicated Doctors (that means chiropractors too) and med students and learn from you. Thank you all very much!

Jesse14
2nd year Kinesiology and Health Science major
York University, Toronto Canada

 

[stoic]

I've read virtually every chiropractic thread on the SDN forum and I know that most MD's and MD students here don't like it at all, but that will NOT stop me from defending it. If chiropractors were on this forum bad mouthing MD's work then I would be doing the same thing because MD's have a critical role in heath care. DC's are effective, they've worked hard for they degree, and they deserve our respect. You don't have to like what they do, but should at least respect it (I know I do). It's sad when I read that I should just "give it up" when it comes to discussing this matter because I simply won't. I will argue until my wrists are burning from CT syndrome (due to all the typing . Many people and even famous people such as Arnold schwarzinager (sp)??, Madonna, The Unites states Olympic men's basketball team ALL use and swear by chiropractic. The US men’s basketball team hired a chiropractor because of a vote the players had to have one with them in Athens. This tells me people are getting much needed relief out of chiropractic. Oh yea, the Men's rowing team also used chiropractic while in Athens. Maybe that all means nothing to most of you, but i just HATE it when people bad moth another PROFESSION just because they don't like and even more so, don't understand what's behind it! I don't want to offend anyone here because i feel privileged to be able to talk to all you smart and dedicated Doctors (that means chiropractors too) and med students and learn from you. Thank you all very much!

Jesse14
2nd year Kinesiology and Health Science major
York University, Toronto Canada

keep in mind that most physicians and med students don't have a problem with patients seeing DC's for muscklo-skelatal complaints. what irks us (and also the honest DC's) are the chiro's out there trying to become primary care physicians and treat everything under the sun with manipulation and dietery supplements. it's not effective and it's not honest. there are a lot of these folks out there who are blatently ripping off patients. it's total bs. if i end up in primary care (and there's a fair chance i will), I'd very much like to establish a working relationship with a chiro like Backtalk who i feel will treat patients effectively within the appropriate scope of their training. in fact, a local clinic here (i think 30-40 total physicians) recently hired a DC that they trust. the reason being that there are just too many guys here in town who the physicians don't trust. the guy they hired at the clinic is by all accounts a stand up chiropractic physician and everyone is benifiting from this arrangement. i think it's pretty cool that all the health care providers were able to get together and find a way to provide the best care for patients.

ps. i know there are a ton of spelling erros in this message, but i'm still on painkillers for an operation i had thursday and my mind is a little muddled.

 

[8744]

ON WHAT PLANET??????

In my neck of the woods, it is not unusual for an internist or a family practioner to start out in the 130-140K range. Also, if you look at salary surveys, 130 to 140K is not out of line for an average salary.

 

[BackTalk]

keep in mind that most physicians and med students don't have a problem with patients seeing DC's for muscklo-skelatal complaints. what irks us (and also the honest DC's) are the chiro's out there trying to become primary care physicians and treat everything under the sun with manipulation and dietery supplements. it's not effective and it's not honest. there are a lot of these folks out there who are blatently ripping off patients. it's total bs. if i end up in primary care (and there's a fair chance i will), I'd very much like to establish a working relationship with a chiro like Backtalk who i feel will treat patients effectively within the appropriate scope of their training. in fact, a local clinic here (i think 30-40 total physicians) recently hired a DC that they trust. the reason being that there are just too many guys here in town who the physicians don't trust. the guy they hired at the clinic is by all accounts a stand up chiropractic physician and everyone is benifiting from this arrangement. i think it's pretty cool that all the health care providers were able to get together and find a way to provide the best care for patients.

ps. i know there are a ton of spelling erros in this message, but i'm still on painkillers for an operation i had thursday and my mind is a little muddled.

Stoic, it would be a privilege to work with a doctor such as yourself. Thanks for the compliment. It has been discussed over and over on these boards what irks you. It seems to be the consensus of most medical and osteopathic physicians on these boards. Believe me, it’s something I certainly do not ignore and there are many chiropractors that feel the same way I do. The unfortunate side of this is there really isn’t much being done by our profession to stop it. In chiropractic school we are taught to recognize many medical conditions. We are not taught to treat these conditions but to refer them. How these chiropractors get it in their head that they can treat some of the conditions, is beyond me. Granted, there are some schools that may push the envelope but I think most of these doctors are learning these things through post graduate seminars that are not sponsored through chiropractic colleges. I don’t think its necessary bad for a chiropractor to help treat a medical condition through nutrition or acupuncture or something that has been proven to help, as long as the patient has a physician such as yourself who has diagnosed the condition and knows exactly what is going on.

Some chiropractors like me graduated chiropractic school thinking we were equivalent to medical and osteopathic physicians. After being in practice and seeing the wide variety of conditions that entered my office, I slowly came to the realization that its not true. I’ll be honest and tell you have had patients come into my office and I had no clue what the hell was going on with them. I’m sure at times you may run into the same problem. This is why it is so important for us to develop relationships with medical and osteopathic physicians.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Since it appears that the OP's question was dealt with sufficiently and now this thread is degenerating into a "DC vs MD" one, I'll be closing it.