Inches from dropping out

[Minaman]

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I'm hoping for some objective advice. I made a few mistakes in going to medical school, and now I'm not sure what to do. I've come to realize that I don't like medicine as much as I though I did, and in all my 3rd year clerkships, only surgery has been even close to making me feel like it was something I could do. Let me explain the situation:
Current debt: 333,000; Debt upon graduation: 450,000; debt after 5 year residency (interest only): 632000
Now according to my calculations, it would take me 14 years to pay that off, living off of 60k a year and throwing everyone else at loans on a average surgery pay (350,000), counting residency. Which puts me at 45 years old, my oldest would be off to college that year, and I would have had 0 money saved up, and no life for that whole time.

If I drop out I'd probably start a business or get another job, I'm sure I could find a 6 figure job within 3-4 years, and then only have 333,000 of debt.

Also pretty sure even general surgery would be hard for me to get into as i'm bottom 1/3 of class and have a 400 COMLEX step one (188 equivalent USMLE)

So it boils down to this choice. Do something I really don't like and be broke (medicine), do something that I like but makes me a pretty crappy father and broke most of my life (surgery), or do something else (estimate about the same time frame for debt free but I'd be around as a father more) and be broke most of my life but do something I enjoy (other). Opinions?

 

[Antibodies]

I'm hoping for some objective advice. I made a few mistakes in going to medical school, and now I'm not sure what to do. I've come to realize that I don't like medicine as much as I though I did, and in all my 3rd year clerkships, only surgery has been even close to making me feel like it was something I could do. Let me explain the situation:
Current debt: 333,000; Debt upon graduation: 450,000; debt after 5 year residency (interest only): 632000
Now according to my calculations, it would take me 14 years to pay that off, living off of 60k a year and throwing everyone else at loans on a average surgery pay (350,000), counting residency. Which puts me at 45 years old, my oldest would be off to college that year, and I would have had 0 money saved up, and no life for that whole time.

If I drop out I'd probably start a business or get another job, I'm sure I could find a 6 figure job within 3-4 years, and then only have 333,000 of debt.

Also pretty sure even general surgery would be hard for me to get into as i'm bottom 1/3 of class and have a 400 COMLEX step one (188 equivalent USMLE)

So it boils down to this choice. Do something I really don't like and be broke (medicine), do something that I like but makes me a pretty crappy father and broke most of my life (surgery), or do something else (estimate about the same time frame for debt free but I'd be around as a father more) and be broke most of my life but do something I enjoy (other). Opinions?

I am not sure that 6 figure jobs are that easy to get. Plus, after 3-4 years your $333,000 debt will be much more because of the interest.

 

[st2205]

Have you worked in any other careers before going to medical school? I think being around med students who are really excited about their career is a bad comparison that's often made when people feel they don't enjoy medicine. For the rest of the world, most everybody either hates or is indifferent about their job. The difference between you and them is you'll make much more money, so consider that unless you're really, really passionate about business because you may find yourself in another unsatisfying career making much, much less with a lot less stability. Something to consider, especially since you have a family. You don't want surgery because you want to be a be there as a father. That's good. Now, independent of what you may personally be interested in career-wise, what's best for your family? If it's venturing off into counting on stumbling on another six-figure job, I'd be very curious to know your reasoning.

Are you married? What are your spouse's/significant other's thoughts?

 

[MJB]

I'd like to know where you're gonna find a 6 figure job "in a few years" that doesn't involved getting your doctorate and finishing a residency.


I'd at least stick it out...


How is your debt that high? I thought I was in bad shape but I'm not at 300K yet, and that includes private undergrad.

 

[DbDan]

I'm confused where are you getting your numbers. If you have 450k debt at graduation, live on 30k for a 5 year residency and then live on 60k a year on your specified 350k salary, you pay your loans off in your 6th year post residency. This is assuming California residence, single, 1 exemption, in a state with ridiculously high state tax. You are taking home 195000 a year post tax. That is 11 years total. If instead, you live on 45k a year, you pay it off in your 5th year post residency. This is taking into account a 6.8% interest rate and no subsidization.

The days of completely neglecting your loans during residency are all but gone. Plus like everyone else said, finding that 100k a year job in the next 3-4 years is going to be difficult and you are going to need to make minimum payments on your student loans during that time period anyway. What is going to be easier do you think? Paying off what will be 400k making 100k a year or paying off 600k making 350k a year? Plus there is no guarantee you will enjoy your new 6 figure a year job either. The ultimate decision though is all yours...

 

[ToldYouSo]

I'm hoping for some objective advice. I made a few mistakes in going to medical school, and now I'm not sure what to do. I've come to realize that I don't like medicine as much as I though I did, and in all my 3rd year clerkships, only surgery has been even close to making me feel like it was something I could do. Let me explain the situation:
Current debt: 333,000; Debt upon graduation: 450,000; debt after 5 year residency (interest only): 632000
Now according to my calculations, it would take me 14 years to pay that off, living off of 60k a year and throwing everyone else at loans on a average surgery pay (350,000), counting residency. Which puts me at 45 years old, my oldest would be off to college that year, and I would have had 0 money saved up, and no life for that whole time.

If I drop out I'd probably start a business or get another job, I'm sure I could find a 6 figure job within 3-4 years, and then only have 333,000 of debt.

Also pretty sure even general surgery would be hard for me to get into as i'm bottom 1/3 of class and have a 400 COMLEX step one (188 equivalent USMLE)

So it boils down to this choice. Do something I really don't like and be broke (medicine), do something that I like but makes me a pretty crappy father and broke most of my life (surgery), or do something else (estimate about the same time frame for debt free but I'd be around as a father more) and be broke most of my life but do something I enjoy (other). Opinions?

I did some really crude calculations off paycheckcity.com and assuming you live off 60k of your net income and make 350k gross as a surgery attending you'd have ~150k net to use towards your debt... I am not sure where you got the 14 year payoff time from, if I missed something then my fault.

 

[st2205]

Also consider the possibility that your odds of landing this six-figure position won't change if you spend another year in medical school. If you forego residency you can still continue with your endeavor, with the possibility of returning to medicine if that doesn't work out for you. If you quit now, you won't ever have that as a "back-up".

Another thing I'd mention for anyone in the future who may read this thread looking for advice is that it's easy to superimpose the way the culture of medicine works on other careers. What I mean is that a lot of smart, hardworking individuals graduate high school, apply their intelligence and work hard and get into medical school. With medicine there's a very high correlation between intelligence/hard work and success, with pure luck being a minimal factor. Often people (not necessary the OP, since I have no idea his history) will only have this experience that they will project on other paths (i.e. as long as I work hard I can do whatever I was, which to an extent is true, but its application is much, much different in other fields). The correlation of hard work and intelligence to being succcessful in other fields is significantly less important than it is in medicine, especially in business. Working hard and being smart in medicine will guarantee you just about anything (as far as being able to go as far as you need to, roughly be able to be in whatever specialty you want, but ultimately have security and be able to make money), but in the business world being intelligent and working hard won't necessarily guarantee you anything. In medicine it is necessary and sufficient. In business it is not always necessary, but it is most certainly never sufficient.

 

[Minaman]

thanks for all the reply's. I guess I hit a number wrong somewhere in my calculations cause for whatever reason I got 5 years longer than you guys did. But I checked it and you are right.

Does anyone know a surgeon that makes good money with a good lifestyle?
Does anyone think I can get into general surgery with my numbers?

those are the biggest risks to me to doing surgery since i'm pretty sure i'd like it...just wife and kids I'm worried about.

 

[st2205]

thanks for all the reply's. I guess I hit a number wrong somewhere in my calculations cause for whatever reason I got 5 years longer than you guys did. But I checked it and you are right.

Does anyone know a surgeon that makes good money with a good lifestyle?
Does anyone think I can get into general surgery with my numbers?

those are the biggest risks to me to doing surgery since i'm pretty sure i'd like it...just wife and kids I'm worried about.

1. I'm sure there are plenty of surgeons that make good money and don't work a typical surgeon's hours. I would guess these guys are in the minority. Anybody can work less hours, but you'll also lose a lot of income (not saying that's why you're doing it).

2. The DO world is a lot different from the allopathic world as it is much smaller. The surgery PD here (KCOM) told me that scores didn't mean anything to them. Knowing the person and that they're good is what mattered to them. One of the residents here now got to know everyone in the surgery department pretty good beginning first year, and the PD told me that by the time 3rd year rolled around that, barring some serious ethical violation, that surgery spot was his. If you didn't rotate here, they're not considering you.

3. Even though you may work less as an attending, you're still going to have to go through 5 years of a surgical residency. Good luck. I can tell you that every wife of a surgical resident hates it (understatement). I'd say your kids may hate it to, but it's likely you won't see them enough to appear even vaguely familiar to them.

 

[bongobingo]

1. I don't think it is realistic that you can get a 6figure job after quitting. If someone wants to hire perhaps they would make an offer while you're still in shcool? I don't think anything will change whe you are unemployed with all that debt living at your parets' house. Getting a business loan as an unemployed man with a 6figure debt? Yeah right. Unless your parents are millionaires, I think quitting med school is the dumbest thing ever.
2. You can get 150k/yr in loands discharged if u join natl guard. You can also take 30years to pay off your loans. What does it matter if u make $2k/month payments when your income is 300k/yr?
3. I think only athletes and actors truly enjoy their jobs.

 

[peppy]

As I commented in the other version of this thread, if I were you I'd definitely look into FM with an emphasis on procedures/minor surgery. I think it would be more likely to be a decent compromise between doing what you enjoy and still having time for the family than a surgical residency. Surgery is one of those specialties where you truly have to love what you do and be willing to put work above all else (at hte very least during residency). There are a lot of people out there who like surgery but don't love it enough to make it their life.

 

[marke]

you can also go into the business/admin aspect of medicine!
from what I heard hospital admin makes pretty descent money and you have the choice of how much time you want to put into practice..

That one show following harvard med grad.. one of them went into non-profit organizations and doesn't really practice medicine and is doing just fine

u already made it this far.. i really think you should finish it..

good luck!

 

[Perrotfish]

Have you looked into EM? It's a procedure heavy specialty, pays 250K a year for 3 to 4 shifts a week, and its residency can be completed in 3 or 4 years.

Also I would be really surprised if you quit and get a 6 figure job a couple of years after quitting. You have no work experience for at least 3 years, you'd be lucky to get any job.

 

[scpod]

.... Current debt: 333,000; Debt upon graduation: 450,000; debt after 5 year residency (interest only): 632000
Now according to my calculations, it would take me 14 years to pay that off, living off of 60k a year and throwing everyone else at loans on a average surgery pay (350,000), counting residency. Which puts me at 45 years old, my oldest would be off to college that year, and I would have had 0 money saved up, and no life for that whole time.....

You have come up with all of these wild projections, yet really have no idea of the programs available to help your situation. You should get advice from a financial advisor who specializes in this type of debt.

I chose IBR for repayment. I'm in residency and pay nothing monthly because of my family size, but the government pays off the interest on my Subsidized Stafford Loans each month. At the end of three years of residency I will make a payment, but it will be based on my income and pretty small comparitively. If I go to work for the government or a non-profit organization-- like the majority of hospitals still out there-- my debt will be forgiven in seven years. During those years I will still have a pretty darned good income and not hurt for anything.

Do some research before you plan major alterations in your life and you might just be surprised.

 

[olivedjazzer]

1. I don't think it is realistic that you can get a 6figure job after quitting. If someone wants to hire perhaps they would make an offer while you're still in shcool? I don't think anything will change whe you are unemployed with all that debt living at your parets' house. Getting a business loan as an unemployed man with a 6figure debt? Yeah right. Unless your parents are millionaires, I think quitting med school is the dumbest thing ever.
2. You can get 150k/yr in loands discharged if u join natl guard. You can also take 30years to pay off your loans. What does it matter if u make $2k/month payments when your income is 300k/yr?
3. I think only athletes and actors truly enjoy their jobs.

I'm not sure what your life experience has been like, but the last hospital I worked at was overflowing with physicians who loved and truly enjoyed their jobs. My garbage man (Billy) loves his job, too. I've met shoe-shine dudes in airports (DFW) that wouldn't trade their job for anything. Suffice it to say that nothing should stand in your way of enjoying yourself at work.

As for the OP...
I feel for you. The debt is scary. Committing to an unknown profession is scary. Not measuring up as a good husband/father is scary. It sounds like you've got a case of the "uncertainty" blues.

*Take a deep breath and push the fear aside for a moment.

All in all, I think most everyone that has replied has brought some strong insight.

Bottom line: if you want to be a surgeon, be a surgeon. Where there's a will, there's a way. This is definitely true in medicine. I know of zero surgeons (out of ~30) who don't have pretty crazy schedules and a very "different" family life. Have you thought about finding some surgeons you admire and asking them about their family struggles etc? Maybe it won't be as bad as you think.

But it sounds like you are strongly set against sacrificing family time/interaction. So I guess your next best option is sacrificing some career happiness for the fam (I think someone mentioned the EM route. They have relatively good hours and exciting cases). So find something that interests you somewhat and start headlong towards it.

Biggest take-away: it would be INSANE not to finish through with med-school and specialty. You'd have no degree and only a mountain of debt and three lost years to show for it. You are at least guaranteed job security, decent salary, and respect for become a physician. If you quit you have no guarantees. Unfortunately I cannot say anything about happiness, but I'm assuming that you felt drawn/called to medical school for a reason - I would suggest rediscovering that inital drive once again.

You and your family will make it through this.

 

[kcin]

I chose IBR for repayment. I'm in residency and pay nothing monthly because of my family size, but the government pays off the interest on my Subsidized Stafford Loans each month. At the end of three years of residency I will make a payment, but it will be based on my income and pretty small comparitively. If I go to work for the government or a non-profit organization-- like the majority of hospitals still out there-- my debt will be forgiven in seven years. During those years I will still have a pretty darned good income and not hurt for anything.

Keep in mind that there is no guarantee on the duration of this program, especially with all of the interest in the medical field/cutting costs. It's nice if it stays around though.

 

[peppy]

EM might be appealing but I would caution that EM is relatively competitive and appears to be on the upswing in competitiveness. I would not count on being able to get into it with low board scores.

 

[wolverinepwns]

no one has brought this up, but why are you in 350K of debt already in your third year, if you don't mind me asking.

 

[dermpathdoc]

I'm not sure what your life experience has been like, but the last hospital I worked at was overflowing with physicians who loved and truly enjoyed their jobs. My garbage man (Billy) loves his job, too. I've met shoe-shine dudes in airports (DFW) that wouldn't trade their job for anything. Suffice it to say that nothing should stand in your way of enjoying yourself at work.

As for the OP...
I feel for you. The debt is scary. Committing to an unknown profession is scary. Not measuring up as a good husband/father is scary. It sounds like you've got a case of the "uncertainty" blues.

*Take a deep breath and push the fear aside for a moment.

All in all, I think most everyone that has replied has brought some strong insight.

Bottom line: if you want to be a surgeon, be a surgeon. Where there's a will, there's a way. This is definitely true in medicine. I know of zero surgeons (out of ~30) who don't have pretty crazy schedules and a very "different" family life. Have you thought about finding some surgeons you admire and asking them about their family struggles etc? Maybe it won't be as bad as you think.

But it sounds like you are strongly set against sacrificing family time/interaction. So I guess your next best option is sacrificing some career happiness for the fam (I think someone mentioned the EM route. They have relatively good hours and exciting cases). So find something that interests you somewhat and start headlong towards it.
ere are Biggest take-away: it would be INSANE not to finish through with med-school and specialty. You'd have no degree and only a mountain of debt and three lost years to show for it. You are at least guaranteed job security, decent salary, and respect for become a physician. If you quit you have no guarantees. Unfortunately I cannot say anything about happiness, but I'm assuming that you felt drawn/called to medical school for a reason - I would suggest rediscovering that inital drive once again.

You and your family will make it through this.

I agree with this poster...you got this far...make a great impression in your rotations and go for what you enjoy....worry about the lifestyle choices later...there ware ways to make it work....

 

[MightyMoose]

no one has brought this up, but why are you in 350K of debt already in your third year, if you don't mind me asking.

He also has UG loans built into it. This isn't all that hard for me to imagine if he was trying to live off of loans during UG, then rolled into med school with ~70-80k of loans/year. So, after 3 years (assuming 75k), he's down 225k, so then it's only 125 for 4 years of private UG. That's not unheard of.


OP, a couple options you might want to consider:

1) Military medicine - They will do a payback if you join during residency.

2) Government Primary Care loan payoff programs. This includes things like IM, PC, and Psychiatry.

3) Other organizational loan payoff programs. I don't know all of them, but I know they are out there.


I know you're into surgery, but maybe that will change over time. I agree with the other posters that this is something you might want to discuss with your wife or SO. If you decide on IM you could leave yourself open for fellowship specialization later.

In answer to a number of the other posters' questions about how to make that kind of money in another field, sales is an easy road to a 6 digit income. However, the problems are high stress, low job stability, frequent travel, and looong hours (~60-70+ in the high paying sales fields). Sales will give you more earning potential than medicine, but it is much higher risk.

 

[Minaman]

Just to answer some questions. My debt is so high for several reasons. I brought about 30k from undergrad, I failed first year and had to redo it, and my school averages about 80k a year of debt (between tuition and living expenses). That, along with interest ends me up right here. 120 k is left because there is one more trimester in third year, and one more year with interest.

Second, yeah what I am considering is pretty much sales. But I really like sales, I really like people and business. I wanted to be a doc cause I like dealing with people on a daily basis, I just underestimated how much I'd hate the content. Opening a book and studying at this point with all my frustrations all built up is pretty close to getting punched in the face every day. I really feel like I'd be a horrible doctor for that reason alone.

I've looked into several repayment options too. I would say two things about that. First, if you hate your career, further restricting yourself with those programs will likely make it worse. And second, as you'll see further down debt, I believe, is going to be a HUGE problem for up and coming docs and these repayment options are going to be very very difficult to get into as people scramble to pay them back.

Things I learned:
1. If you don't like biology sciences, you aren't likely to like medicine. I got A's on all my chem and physics classes (chem major) but it was all analytical to me no rote memorization. C's in all my biology classes should have been a red flag
2. The days of not considering debt going into med school is gone. I looked this up a while ago so these won't be exactly accurate but the point is still there. Docs made very similar in the 80s to what they make now. There pay has increased .5-1% a year (for most specialties) compared to 4% inflation and close to 10% for tuition to school. We are going to see major major issues with this in the classes that are coming out now, but haven't seen them yet cause there is a 7-10 year lag before you see it.
3. I'd rather be broke doing something I love than rich and miserable. Maybe that is just me but if sales doesn't work out, I'll get a PhD in psych or chem and teach at a college and like that much much more than what I do now. My decision, I believe, unless something crazy happens in the next week or two, is to take a 1 year Leave of Absence from school (thank goodness they'll let me do that) and try to find my passion. Thanks for all your comments. I really really hope you are all much more passionate about medicine than I was.

By the way I think it's funny how you guys assume I haven't done research on this. I know pretty much every program in the country that helps discharge debt. IBR is fantastic but it isn't the answer yet. 99% of doctors don't work in non-profit setting. Hospitals employ very few doctors and only contract to them. Therefore you are working for profit and you have to pay of IBR for 25 years to get it discharged. 25 years!!! that puts me at 55 and my debt would be like 1.5 million (I didn't calculate this and it would likely be less but just for effect). Oh and by the way, your discharged about of debt is TAXABLE!!! Meaning you get 700K discharged after 10 years and you owe the IRS 300K!!!! good luck with that (there is a motion in the house to make it not taxable but no one has any data on where the politicians stand on this yet; also IBR wasn't make for docs, once the government realized they are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for doctors, it is entirely possible that they exclude us from the program, point is we just don't know what the future holds with it cause it's 2 years old). 80% of so of other programs out there pay you ~25k a year toward debt as a max. So that would be cool as long as I want to play by their rules for 15 years (i know, I know if I went crazy I could get it done in 6-7 but that is 10-11 years with residency). Also those areas tend to pay less since you get less patients and more medicare patients. hmmm what else, oh the military yeah that is a good option if I want to be deployed 6 months every 2 years without my family. All service docs that I talked to (maybe 10) said that 90% of docs are being deployed pretty close to max allowable right now. I think you love the military that is AMAZING and I seriously would shake the hand of every one of you with a mountain of respect, but I would rather not be away from my fam 33% of the time. I mean really, do you guys just think I'm depressed and making horrible decisions that I haven't researched? That really would be ******ed. When I say I could make 100K in 3-4 years it's because I'm fairly confident I would succeed in certain careers and that I could be hired in them. When I say I could start my own business it's because I know of very low cost businesses I could start up without needing a loan. Let's at least give me the benefit of the doubt don't you think?

 

[st2205]

A PhD in what kind ofpsychology? Please don't say clinical. If you like people, sales may be good but it may wear you down year after year when you realize your only objective is to SELL to them. Also, people could give you the benefit of the doubt and a pat on the back, but that'd be a huge disservice. Everyone has done a decent job of presenting reality. If you feel you're an exception and the grass really is greener and are just looking for reassurance, you've come to the wrong place.

But yes, I'd be very interested in knowing what kind of psychology you'd like to get a PhD in and become a professor doing, as if it's anything clinical in nature you can accomplish that same goal more or less through a psych residency.

 

[Zarika]

When I say I could make 100K in 3-4 years it's because I'm fairly confident I would succeed in certain careers and that I could be hired in them. When I say I could start my own business it's because I know of very low cost businesses I could start up without needing a loan. Let's at least give me the benefit of the doubt don't you think?

Not to be a total jerk, but, when you came to medical school weren't you "fairly confident" you could succeed and would enjoy being a doctor? I'm assuming the answer is yes, b/c otherwise why would you have enrolled. Why, specifically, do you know you like sales and do you have any experience that makes you think you'll be good at it?

I think, and this is just my opinion so you're obviously free to take it with a grain of salt, that if it was just you, absolutely, take a LOA for a year, figure out what you want to do, and just do it. I don't think you'll be making any where near 100K/yr, but there is IRB for your loans and you might be happier living on less money in sales then you would be living on more as a doctor. When they are discharged from IRB, you can always set up a payment plan with the government for the huge tax bill.

However, you keep bringing up your family as something that is very important to you. I think, again just my opinion, that the best way to provide for them would be to finish out medical school and be a doc. All this debt isn't going to get passed onto them if something would happen to you, but assuming you're alive and well they are going to have to live with the consequences of your decision to go to medical school and then not be a doctor. As a doctor you'll realistically have the salary to eventually pay back your loans. As a businessmen, especially one with no/minimal experience in a terrible economy, probably not so much. If this business was as easy to set-up and as easy to succeed in as you seem to believe, don't you think more people would be doing it? Regarding going back to get your PhD: you can't be in school forever. Short PhDs tend to be 5 years, think how much interest your loans will be earning in this period.

 

[MedicineMike]

What kind of 'sales' do you plan on doing to land you 100k 3-4 years after starting?? Very few sales jobs make that much unless it is pharm or medical device sales (which unless you are a good looking person that knows someone in the company, you will not get into). You have to work your ARSE off to make a lot of money in sales. Plus, if you aren't selling, you are fired. I know from experience as I was in sales my first job after college. I worked for 1.5yrs and it was about 1.4yrs too long. It was dreadful waking up and going to work everyday.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, and I wish you luck in your future endeavors. I know I would not want a miserable doctor to see me! I hope you make the best decision for you and your fam

 

[Taurus]

There are two federal loan programs (I don't recall the names because I don't have any loans to pay off).

1) Caps the amount you have to pay for loans as a percentage of your income. As a resident, you'll be making peanuts.

2) If you work for a non-profit, ie, hospital, govt, for 10 years (this includes your residency years), your federal loans will be completely forgiven.

Problem solved.

 

[peppy]

I'll get a PhD in psych or chem and teach at a college and like that much much more than what I do now.

Clinical Psych PhD programs are extremely competitive to get into so if you are leaning in that direction I really agree with the person who suggested that staying in medicine and going for psychiatry would be a better path.
One of the nice things about Psych is that you can have a good lifestyle even in residency if you make that a priority in choosing your residency programs (I am a psych resident myself so I am saying this from direct experience). In psych you have a lot of flexibility in how you want to practice so if you dislike the traditional medical model you could focus more on a psychotherapy based practice. You should also be able to get into a psych residency without much trouble as long as you apply broadly.

 

[MightyMoose]

Clinical Psych PhD programs are extremely competitive to get into so if you are leaning in that direction I really agree with the person who suggested that staying in medicine and going for psychiatry would be a better path.
One of the nice things about Psych is that you can have a good lifestyle even in residency if you make that a priority in choosing your residency programs (I am a psych resident myself so I am saying this from direct experience). In psych you have a lot of flexibility in how you want to practice so if you dislike the traditional medical model you could focus more on a psychotherapy based practice. You should also be able to get into a psych residency without much trouble as long as you apply broadly.

In addition to this, Psychiatry has loan forgiveness programs and the OP could still possibly land a spot in Psych with his Step 1 and history. Psych is also very med dependent, so the OP could bring in a lot of his chemistry knowledge and possible get into an academic research career.

 

[jdsargen]

You may not feel this way but I am going to throw this out there.

I am also a father and I understand your concern about debt when your children are moving off to college. I once interviewed for a sales position and was asked a simply question. Rank the following in importance and why: Money, Family, your Career. I ranked them Family, Career, Money. Family is first for me for obvious reasons, my career was second for my own personal fulfillment followed by money which is only a means to an end for my family.

Sadly, I did not get the job for this simple reason. People were only considered if money was listed as number one. This was very telling for me about the field.

I just do not see how someone who would consider going into medicine could be someone who would also be willing to do sales. If the only reason you would go into the field is money, which I realize some people do, why would you consider giving it all up and losing money?

 

[thepoopologist]

If it were any earlier I'd say go for it and drop out. But practically speaking, you are almost done and to walk away from it now would be foolish. There are tons of specialties to choose from, some with minimal clinic work, and you can moonlight during residency to pay down the debt. It's not like you literally have two choices. You have many.

 

[SFO-IST]

I used to be in technical sales for a company that dealt in the defense, telecommunication, biotech, and consumer electronics industries. It sucks man, it sucks. It looks great from the outside, but you are actually putting in the hours of a physician and being treated badly by your customers because most people approach salespeople with reservations.

The fact that you don't have to deal with this in and of itself would make medicine appealing.

You'd probably be looking at pharmaceutical sales with your background to give the biggest bang for the buck. Guess what, Dr's are going to be even more brutal. Your quality of life will suck.

I don't mean to presume anything and please forgive me if I am incorrect, but perhaps your negative feelings towards medicine are not from medicine at all but from the experience of failing the first year and the debt you have now. In other words, you are coming out of this negative experience and you are trapped. Your feelings may have nothing to do with actually practicing medicine as a physician. By quitting now, you'll have to lug around this psychological feeling of failure outside of medicine combined with a real economic feeling of being trapped.

Why not make this a challenge for you. Prove to yourself that you can actually handle this. I guarantee you that graduating from this thing will give you a psychological boost that you can use in whatever field you choose to pursue.

Even if your goal is sales, you will get more doors opened and earn a higher commission as a physician.

Best of luck.

 

[MightyMoose]

I used to be in technical sales for a company that dealt in the defense, telecommunication, biotech, and consumer electronics industries. It sucks man, it sucks. It looks great from the outside, but you are actually putting in the hours of a physician and being treated badly by your customers because most people approach salespeople with reservations.

The fact that you don't have to deal with this in and of itself would make medicine appealing.

You'd probably be looking at pharmaceutical sales with your background to give the biggest bang for the buck. Guess what, Dr's are going to be even more brutal. Your quality of life will suck.

I don't mean to presume anything and please forgive me if I am incorrect, but perhaps your negative feelings towards medicine are not from medicine at all but from the experience of failing the first year and the debt you have now. In other words, you are coming out of this negative experience and you are trapped. Your feelings may have nothing to do with actually practicing medicine as a physician. By quitting now, you'll have to lug around this psychological feeling of failure outside of medicine combined with a real economic feeling of being trapped.

Why not make this a challenge for you. Prove to yourself that you can actually handle this. I guarantee you that graduating from this thing will give you a psychological boost that you can use in whatever field you choose to pursue.

Even if your goal is sales, you will get more doors opened and earn a higher commission as a physician.

Best of luck.

This post touches on so many good points, OP. As a former sales executive myself, I can vouch for what he is saying.

I also strongly agree with the bolded part.

 

[koan]

This post touches on so many good points, OP. As a former sales executive myself, I can vouch for what he is saying.

I also strongly agree with the bolded part.

I had the exact same thoughts, these two just beat me to it. You are certainly in a tough position to be having second thoughts, but my guess is that you'll be worse off if you don't finish than if you do. Somebody brought up that old TV documentary about the Harvard med students, and the one who opted out of residency and clinical practice to start a non-profit. Worth watching, IMO.

 

[JapaneseSakura]

DON'T DO IT!!!

Please do not do anything you are going to regret later. Pllleeaassseee think about this clearly! I was in Sales for a little while, I hated it, WITH ALL MY HEART!!! Treated like crap, people look at though they are better than you, the commission is like what, 90%???!! You make $100 dollars and you get a buck lol!, doing grunt work, It sucks to the core, wishing everyday to die! In fact, I was working in sales, with a boss who had a HS diploma! Here I busted my butt for my bachelors and I was working with people who had a HS and laughing at me and they didn't need to get a BS? Those are the crappy jobs you may get, especially in this economy. Especially from a jerk who thinks they have your life in their hands and wants control of your life! Talk about misery, misery!!!! I rather die than to go back to that kind of work! It's like you have to get a professional degree these days,

perhaps your negative feelings towards medicine are not from medicine at all but from the experience of failing the first year and the debt you have now. In other words, you are coming out of this negative experience and you are trapped. Your feelings may have nothing to do with actually practicing medicine as a physician. By quitting now, you'll have to lug around this psychological feeling of failure outside of medicine combined with a real economic feeling of being trapped.

Why not make this a challenge for you. Prove to yourself that you can actually handle this. I guarantee you that graduating from this thing will give you a psychological boost that you can use in whatever field you choose to pursue.

Beautifully said!

Also, I am not trying to be a jerk or anything too but, why did you devote yourself to medicine if you feel the need to drop out? No offense, someone who really wanted to become a doctor could of took your spot. Isn't that a bit, selfish? I'm just saying!

Not to be a total jerk, but, when you came to medical school weren't you "fairly confident" you could succeed and would enjoy being a doctor? I'm assuming the answer is yes, b/c otherwise why would you have enrolled. Why, specifically, do you know you like sales and do you have any experience that makes you think you'll be good at it?

I think, and this is just my opinion so you're obviously free to take it with a grain of salt, that if it was just you, absolutely, take a LOA for a year, figure out what you want to do, and just do it. I don't think you'll be making any where near 100K/yr, but there is IRB for your loans and you might be happier living on less money in sales then you would be living on more as a doctor. When they are discharged from IRB, you can always set up a payment plan with the government for the huge tax bill.

However, you keep bringing up your family as something that is very important to you. I think, again just my opinion, that the best way to provide for them would be to finish out medical school and be a doc. All this debt isn't going to get passed onto them if something would happen to you, but assuming you're alive and well they are going to have to live with the consequences of your decision to go to medical school and then not be a doctor. As a doctor you'll realistically have the salary to eventually pay back your loans. As a businessmen, especially one with no/minimal experience in a terrible economy, probably not so much. If this business was as easy to set-up and as easy to succeed in as you seem to believe, don't you think more people would be doing it? Regarding going back to get your PhD: you can't be in school forever. Short PhDs tend to be 5 years, think how much interest your loans will be earning in this period.

That's true! Just think about it your options more, realistically! Like the others have said, maybe do another program of interest to you?

 

[olivedjazzer]

Also, I am not trying to be a jerk or anything too but, why did you devote yourself to medicine if you feel the need to drop out? No offense, someone who really wanted to become a doctor could of took your spot. Isn't that a bit, selfish? I'm just saying!

JapSak: I'm pretty sure Minaman did not go into med-school with hopes and aspirations to drop out. No one does. Needless to say I'm offended and you didn't even direct your comment at me. I'm sure the "someone" you are referring to was probably less qualified than Minaman (and probably still is), so what's done is done. And anything that is in his best interests is not necessarily selfish, right?


You got this Minaman. I still agree with all of the people saying to push through with your degree. There are SOOOOO many options of how you use your training, but you've gotta finish. Maybe you should treat this like all of those undergrads that go into college and take "general studies" for a year or two except you'll be doing IM residency. That is a versatile choice that allows you more time to figure out what you'd really want to do.

👍

 

[JapaneseSakura]

JapSak: I'm pretty sure Minaman did not go into med-school with hopes and aspirations to drop out. No one does. Needless to say I'm offended and you didn't even direct your comment at me. I'm sure the "someone" you are referring to was probably less qualified than Minaman (and probably still is), so what's done is done. Why not trying to offer him some encouragement rather than lambasting him with idiotic babble?

You got this Minaman. I still agree with all of the people saying to push through with your degree. There are SOOOOO many options of how you use your training, but you've gotta finish. Maybe you should treat this like all of those undergrads that go into college and take "general studies" for a year or two except you'll be doing IM residency. That is a versatile choice that allows you more time to figure out what you'd really want to do.

👍

Thanks for not reading all my post! Please read all of my post before you are quick to speak. The one who's a babbling idiot here is you. I did encouraged him quite a bit if you were to read a lot more. It was just a simple question that is all. I told him to just think about his options more before he starts to do something he will regret.

 

[olivedjazzer]

Thanks for not reading all my post! Please read all of my post before you are quick to speak. The one who's a babbling idiot here is you. I did encouraged him quite a bit if you were to read a lot more. It was just a simple question that is all. I told him to just think about his options more before he starts to do something he will regret.

🙂

I did read everything (twice) and I still think your comment was out of line. But no hard feelings.

 

[JapaneseSakura]

🙂

I did read everything (twice) and I still think your comment was out of line. But no hard feelings.

Well I know, I said "Not trying to be a jerk" I am just curious!!!I didn't know how to word it without starting an argument because no offense even if I were to say "HI" on here, I would still get yelled at. I always get yelled at, lol. If it was out of line, I am clearly sorry. Situations do pop up in people's life and I should know. I know no one knows if they can handle medical school until they get in.😛

But seriously, just clear your head and just write down some options on what would happen if you stay in medical school or not. You will be surprised on what would motivate you to stay!

 

[Minaman]

thanks everyone for all your reply's. I think you guys have pretty much gotten it by now and understand my situation. I just feel stuck. If i stay in medicine, with what has happened thus far, I fell like I'm stuck doing IM or FP which I despise. If I leave I take a job that maybe fits me a little better, or doesn't, but just like medicine it is impossible to know until you see it first hand. But it almost for sure means less money and prestige. I really would like to do surgery, but lets me honest, 5% chance MAYBE. Even if I really impress the PD's. Only realistic thing I could do and might actually want to do is psychiatry...but it is like 60% want to do it.

Jap - obviously I've thought of that before, had I known I was going to hate it I never would have done it. Had I known I was going to be horrible at it...I still might not have done it.

Looking at it like a challange is all well and good, but that is exactly what I thought after first semester of first year, after I failed first year, when thinking about boards, etc. I really tried to challenge myself to overcome and succeed. but either because I had medicine, or had low self-esteem or both, actually following through with my plans never happened and as a result, my application sucks. If fact I've started explaining to my close friends that I couldn't make the application look any worse even if I tried.

400 comlex; didn't pass USMLE
2.9 GPA bottom 10% of my class
have already not passed 2 clinical rotations (preceptors gave me honors but a 68% of my test means you fail the whole rotations...total bull ****)
family of 5 made me unable to get involved in any clubs etc...

just bad

Anyway thanks for the reply's I'll keep you posted, decision time soon.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Well I know, I said "Not trying to be a jerk" I am just curious!!!I didn't know how to word it without starting an argument because no offense even if I were to say "HI" on here, I would still get yelled at. I always get yelled at, lol.

Next time, I would try excluding phrases like this if you don't want to "get yelled at":

No offense, someone who really wanted to become a doctor could of took your spot. Isn't that a bit, selfish? I'm just saying!

That's not a question any longer. That's a judgment, one that you shouldn't be making as a pre-med.

 

[Anam Cara]

I came across your post... It definitely seems like an extremely overwhelming situation. There are the financial concerns, and I can't really offer much guidance around those issues... except maybe to consider Income Based Repayment.

I guess I'm more concerned with your vocational journey. I'm amazed at the load you have been juggling, first off, with your family and with medical school. I think it's pretty obvious that you are wanting to do what's best for your family... whatever that may be. But I think that this is more than a dollars and cents issue.

I'm wondering if you have considered speaking with a counselor about your vocation? Is there someone at your school that you could consult? You have a very busy life, but I think this might be something worth your time. My hope is that you might have some sort of ally that could help you assess what feels the most alive for you in terms of work. If you can pay attention to that "felt sense" regarding vocation, you may find some peace for you and your family.

In any case, take all of this with a grain of salt. I know a lot of folks don't go in for the touchy-feely stuff. 🙂 But I reckon I do. This chaplain just wishes you well.

 

[ShyRem]

surgery isn't all that competitive everywhere. But you have to be aware that surgery hours are brutal. You'll have even less time with your family than you do now.

Look, you have nothing to lose by applying. Worst case scenario, you try for surgery, don't match, and then scramble into a prelim year. But at least you will have tried for what you want.

 

[Minaman]

Thanks chaplain, yes I did receive some counseling for this, both at school and with a therapist. Though the therapist said she couldn't do much for me since I'm not really depressed or dysfunctional but rather just a bit lost 🙂. I do meet with the school to get facts to many of my questions.

I wanted to present an opinion, I think I MAY have found something that is a happy medium between surgery and lifestyle and may also pay enough for the debt side of things, and, to take the cake, may actually be something I like doing (amazing I know but I finally found a field that might fit my personality and goals). What do you guys think of PM&R? Good hours, even in residency, and good money out of it. Working in sports med and doing lots of procedures would both be things I"m really interested in, though I still don't know too much about it. Anyone have an opinion?

 

[olivedjazzer]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=585392

In case you hadn't already seen it...

I'm really glad something came up dude. That's exciting news!

 

[Terpskins99]

I really would like to do surgery, but lets me honest, 5% chance MAYBE. Even if I really impress the PD's. Only realistic thing I could do and might actually want to do is psychiatry...but it is like 60% want to do it.

400 comlex; didn't pass USMLE

Couple thoughts...

You might want to take a year off to clear your head and consider your future. Contact your school dean and ask for permission to do so. Make it a "research year" or something. Maybe even shadow a couple of other physicians with your time and get a chance to talk about the pros/cons of their specialty.

Oddly enough, the fact that you failed USMLE may actually be a good thing. Its better than passing USMLE Step 1 with a low score, because you are allowed to take Step 1 again and potentially do pretty well. My understand is, most ACGME (MD) residencies don't care either way about COMLEX so long as you have a decent USMLE Step 1 score. I'm of the belief that ANYONE can pull in a strong Step 1 score with the proper preparation and attitude. Just slip by the studentdoctor Step 1 forum and you will have a plethora of information to help you ace this test should you so desire.

General surgery has a ton of residency positions, so if you want it badly enough I'm pretty sure you could land a spot. The most important question is, how badly do you want it? Surgery residency (even in today's 80 hr work-week climate) is still brutal and the lifestyle is definitely not for anyone who isn't absolutely sure they want to be a surgeon.

 

[Helen Wheels]

Clinical Psych PhD programs are extremely competitive to get into so if you are leaning in that direction I really agree with the person who suggested that staying in medicine and going for psychiatry would be a better path.

Yes, this is true. I applied for several years to clinical psych doctoral programs awhile back. I couldn't get accepted and ended up deciding to try for medical school instead. That probably sounds crazy but it's true. There are about 350 psych doctoral programs but each school only takes a few to maybe 15-20 students a year for larger PsyD programs. That means there are only about 3500 spots each year for all the applicants to clinical psychology. Uber competitive.

 

[JapaneseSakura]

Next time, I would try excluding phrases like this if you don't want to "get yelled at":

Okay chill dude, it's not that serious. I've exclused phrases like that, by asking a simple question. Let it go, it's over.

That's not a question any longer. That's a judgment, one that you shouldn't be making as a pre-med.

I'm not sure if you are a medical student or not but, I still have a right to have an opinion or ask a question. Premed or not, everyone has a gist on how overwhelming medical school is. You don't have to be in medical school to know that. He's almost done, why drop out now? Sheesh, you ask a question on here and people make it into a big argument on these osteopathic forums. So drop it already. I've already cleared what I have said.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Okay chill dude, it's not that serious. I've exclused phrases like that, by asking a simple question. Let it go, it's over.

LOL, you throw a judgmental phrase at someone and get called on it and suddenly "it's over."

I'm not sure if you are a medical student or not but, I still have a right to have an opinion or ask a question. Premed or not, everyone has a gist on how overwhelming medical school is. You don't have to be in medical school to know that. He's almost done, why drop out now?

I'm a med student, as is everyone else who bothers to give advice to a MED STUDENT on whether or not to drop out. As a pre-med, you're crazy to judge a med student who may not want to continue his education. You have no idea what med school is like, no matter how many SDN posts you've read or how many people you've known in med school. You have to truly want to be a doctor to get through med school. If the OP no longer wants that life, who the hell are you to make him feel guilty about it and call him selfish?

Sheesh, you ask a question on here and people make it into a big argument on these osteopathic forums.

What's funny is that you said a similar thing several posts ago about always getting yelled at on these forums. If this happens to you all the time, shouldn't that be a clue? Perhaps you should re-evaluate how you come across.

So drop it already. I've already cleared what I have said.

Well let's see, the last post on this topic was 11 days ago. You resurrected it to tell everyone to drop it? I don't think so.

 

[JapaneseSakura]

You know what, I didn't even bother to care to read all that drama. Okay, I am not going to go back and forth with you considering I have a life. If you are a medical student, why are you on here 24/7? I have an older sister who's in her second year and she rarely has time to be fooling around online. Please don't waste my time with nonsense and grow up. If you are going to be this sensitive when people ask simple questions, then I worry for you when you become a doctor.

@ Minaman: Anyways, I hope whatever you do, it's for the best. You are the only one that knows what's best for you. Good luck!!👍

LOL, you throw a judgmental phrase at someone and get called on it and suddenly "it's over."



I'm a med student, as is everyone else who bothers to give advice to a MED STUDENT on whether or not to drop out. As a pre-med, you're crazy to judge a med student who may not want to continue his education. You have no idea what med school is like, no matter how many SDN posts you've read or how many people you've known in med school. You have to truly want to be a doctor to get through med school. If the OP no longer wants that life, who the hell are you to make him feel guilty about it and call him selfish?



What's funny is that you said a similar thing several posts ago about always getting yelled at on these forums. If this happens to you all the time, shouldn't that be a clue? Perhaps you should re-evaluate how you come across.



Well let's see, the last post on this topic was 11 days ago. You resurrected it to tell everyone to drop it? I don't think so.

 

[drfeelgood]

In my experience... the people who completed med school in 5 years because they had to redo 1st year had a horrible time matching. I know a guy who couldn't scramble into any FP program because the programs didn't want to take a chance on a weak intern. The schools just want your $$$$ but don't tell you what to expect. Failing 1st year med school follows you for the rest of your life. Even if you get into a residency it follows you into private practice. I have a family friend who had to take A crappy job in Bakersfield doing hospital medicine as a Family Practioner doing 75-85 hours per week plus two weekend calls per month for only $150,000 per year!!!🙁 Sorry if any of you are from the central valley of Cali. but it sucks being out there...115 and dusty during the summer and boring the rest of the year)

Compare that with hospitalists I know in my group who make $400,000 per year in a nice part of So. Cal. I know $400,000 a year seems high for IM but I'm in a sweet group. (I do Anesthesia by the way)

Either way you WILL be screwed. I wouldn't hire you..... I wish schools would tell this to all incoming 1st year students rather throwing out a false hope (parachute) to weak students in the hopes of collecting more $$$$$ and making a their grad rates better. I recently told my cousin who was wishy-washy about applying to osteopathic Medical school not to apply and consider PA school because he wasn't sure he had the motivation to get through med school. He's a smart kid 3.6 biology major from UCLA and 12's and a 13 on the MCAT. But smart only gets you so far. My friend James was kicked out at the end of 1st year. He graduated with honors with a BioChem degree from UCSD!! To add insult to injury.. the class he failed on that got him kicked out of WesternU was BIOCHEM!!!! Let this be a lesson to all premeds to be humble and still study for all exams even if you majored in it!!!!

While i'm on this rant about schools and money..... I wish it was state law that Med Schools and all Professional schools would be required to teach a personal Finance class during school to warn students on not taking on too much debt....401ks.... savings....acting your wage.. and so on. It was a state law in Massachusetts that all residents complete a personal finance class once every two years while I was a resident at Tufts University.

 

[katarina90]

I have to agree with the person who suggested psych. If you're thinking of getting a Psy D you will either pay for it out of pocket, or get a scholarship that pays for your tuition only, or if you're really lucky and uber-competitive applicant you will get a scholarship and marginal fellowship. After graduation you will work your --- off to get a position at a university or go into clinical practice, which are both reasonably competitive as well.

Now if you finish med school and match into a psych residency: psych is not that competitive. You will make 50-60 k per year in residency and then make a decent 6-figure income in practice. Up to 400-500 k gross if you work a lot, depending on where you're at (I know cause my dad was a psychiatrist). Malpractice cost is low compared to surgery, you'll be able to see your kids grow up, and you'll have a fascinating career. And there's a shortage of psychiatrists so you know you will be filling a need in your community and helping people out. One last thing is you can enter the National Health Service Corps and they'll help you pay off your debt with a commitment of a few years in an underserved area (can be anywhere from rural Kansas to an urban, low-income population in NYC).

Just my (biased) two-cents coming from a hopeful future psych whose father also was a psych. But still : )