Incoming D1, am I crazy to drop all my acceptances because of the absurd cost of education?

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endough11

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Hi everyone,

I have been conflicted for months regarding if dental school is worth it. I enjoy dentistry from what I’ve seen thus far and think I would be reasonably happy doing this for the rest of my life, but I am so discouraged by the loans. I have two deposits down at an Ivy and a public school where I can convert to in-state tuition after the first year. After interest while in school,tuition inflation each year, and origination fees the total cost would be either 670k for the ivy or 520k for the public school. I have aspirations of doing OMFS and I’d like to believe I have the aptitude for it (30 TS on DAT and did well in undergrad). I’d like to clarify that I would be happy to be a GP, if i could pay back my loans.

Am I crazy for thinking paying back the loans is impossible? The interest rate on grad plus loans is 9.08% and the SAVE plan is dead. There is also other political uncertainty that makes me scared to take out a 520k or 670k bet on myself without falling into financial ruin.

If anyone could advise me on how they are planning to pay their loans or feel you’ve made a financial mistake please comment.
Thank you everyone.
 
No I don’t think it’s worth it at that price. Tuition may rise even more than you’ve predicted each year. Pre-dents continue to ignore the advice to not apply to these ridiculously expensive schools. I finished in 2023 with $200k loans and told myself if my school was going to be over $300k I wouldn’t go.

With a 30 TS on the DAT I imagine you could’ve gone to pretty much any school you wanted, so why apply to these crazy expensive schools?

To any pre-dents reading this, you’ve been warned many times, so you can blame anyone when you’re graduating $600-$700k+ in debt.
 
SuxDrugs&Rocuronium said:
No I don’t think it’s worth it at that price. Tuition may rise even more than you’ve predicted each year. Pre-dents continue to ignore the advice to not apply to these ridiculously expensive schools. I finished in 2023 with $200k loans and told myself if my school was going to be over $300k I wouldn’t go.

With a 30 TS on the DAT I imagine you could’ve gone to pretty much any school you wanted, so why apply to these crazy expensive schools?

To any pre-dents reading this, you’ve been warned many times, so you can blame anyone when you’re graduating $600-$700k+ in debt.
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No luck at UCLA or UCSF. Interviewed at UNC OOS, didnt get in. So I’m stuck with this public school or the Ivy. As far as I can see, the only public school I couldve gotten into thats under 300 cost of attendance after everything is the Texas schools which I heard accept like 3 OOS per school per year. The other cheap schools like ECU etc. accept 0 OOS from my research.

edit: did the math right now. UCLA is 467,554 in-state without origination fees, interest while in school, and tuition inflation
 
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You're incredibly wise for worrying about this before you start. To answer your question, no, dentistry is not worth it for half a million dollars. If you do go, expect to rely on government loan forgiveness and drudge around >600k of student loan debt for 20-25 years and get ready to pay a hefty tax bomb. I finished with about 200k and would not advise going for more than 200-250k.
 
JacquesVallee said:
You're incredibly wise for worrying about this before you start. To answer your question, no, dentistry is not worth it for half a million dollars. If you do go, expect to rely on government loan forgiveness and drudge around >600k of student loan debt for 20-25 years and get ready to pay a hefty tax bomb. I finished with about 200k and would not advise going for more than 200-250k.
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I see. I don’t see any schools attainable for that price unless I was from texas or the southeast. Im just curious, what do you think will happen to this crop of new dentists coming in this year and the next couple years? Rely on IBR for the rest of their life? I read about the college cost reduction act repayment plan they are currently proposing to replace the current repayment plans. If im reading it correctly you’ll be paying 10% of your discretionary income pretty much indefinitely.
 
endough11 said:
I see. I don’t see any schools attainable for that price unless I was from texas or the southeast. Im just curious, what do you think will happen to this crop of new dentists coming in this year and the next couple years? Rely on IBR for the rest of their life? I read about the college cost reduction act repayment plan they are currently proposing to replace the current repayment plans. If im reading it correctly you’ll be paying 10% of your discretionary income pretty much indefinitely.
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Yeah almost every state school is way too pricey. My alma mater now costs at least 350k for in state. Insanity. You have to realize that our system is so insane that instead of just stopping the government from giving out an infinite degree of student loans allowing the schools to charge whatever they want, they now have loan forgiveness programs that prevent the problem from resolving as it allows dentists with 600k+ debt to keep kicking the can down the road for 20-25 years.

I wouldn't plan on any new repayment plans that seem too good to be true. It's hard to completely envision what will happen to all of these dentists from, say, NYU but I'd imagine they'll all rely on loan forgiveness plans and pray they save up enough for the tax bomb. If they can't pay the tax bomb, I honestly don't know what would happen. Maybe they'd (finally) let you declare bankruptcy at that point.
 
9% on over $500k of loans is a huge risk. I went to an ivy, but had a scholarship and commuted and lived at home. I graduated with $250k of debt.

Had I been looking at $500k at 9% I would not have gone for that price. My goal was to keep it below $300k.

That being said I graduated and paid off all of my $250k in loans in just over a year and my income is much higher than I thought it would be, but I would not have gone for over $500k at 9% back when I was a pre-dent. I was fortunate to get into some less expensive schools.

9% of $670k is over $60k of post tax income just to pay off the interest for that first year working. Thats not even paying down the loan.

Consider the military, public service, or reapplying somewhere cheaper or where you can commute.
 
This is not an great analogy, but gives one something to think about...

Would you invest $500,000 in a 4 year bond that would only paid out $175,000 upon maturity?
 
Did you apply to UNLV? I believe the tuition for the 1st year for OOS residents is $110k. But after the first year, you will pay in-state tuition, which is $65k/yr. My friend’s kid almost attended this school. She picked UNLV over Loma Linda because of the lower cost of attendance. But then UOP took her off the wait list and she decided to go there to save herself a yr of schooling. UNLV is only 3.5 hour drive away from CA. You can go home once a month to get food from your parents. When I was at UCLA, I came home once/twice a month and my mom packed frozen food for me….helped save me a lot of money.

$520k debt is a lot of money to pay back. You need to make at least $300k/yr, which is not easy to accomplish…..but it’s not impossible….it requires a lot of hard work and sacrifice. My nephew graduated last year with about the same debt amount. For the first month, he couldn’t find any F/T job in OC and LA….most wanted to hire him P/T. He finally found a full time job (Western dental) with a good benefit package but it’s it a remote area of SoCal, where no one wants to live. He’s a W2 employee. They pay him $750/day + bonus + health/vision + 401k + malpractice insurance…so it’s equivalent to someone making $950-1000/day working as an independent contractor…..or around $220-230k/yr. I believe he’s currently on some type of income-base repayment program. He's single and has no one to support....so hopefully, he'll get out of debt soon.
 
endough11 said:
yeah i did apply there. interviewed there and didnt get in unfortunately. thats pretty good compensation! my current plan is just hop on IBR and move to the middle of nowhere.
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Have you ever actually lived rural? It's so much easier said than done. I currently practice in the middle of nowhere where the nearest city is about 2 hours away and let me tell you it's brutal socially. My office has gone through numerous associates because as good as the money is, it's incredibly difficult to adjust to. I'm actually moving back to a city in a couple of months.
 
JacquesVallee said:
Have you ever actually lived rural? It's so much easier said than done. I currently practice in the middle of nowhere where the nearest city is about 2 hours away and let me tell you it's brutal socially. My office has gone through numerous associates because as good as the money is, it's incredibly difficult to adjust to. I'm actually moving back to a city in a couple of months.
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no i havent. if its completely necessary i would but i’d prefer not to. i’ll look more into the HPSP scholarship
 
I don’t think it’s wise for you to drop out. You can earn enough to make the loans worth it doing OMFS as you plan or any other specialty or even in general dentistry. If you plan on making under $200k/year then yeah paying off those loans will be tough but if you’re earning $500k or $800k/year then you’ll be fine. If anyone making these numbers wants to chime in with advice, feel free
 
If your ultimate interest lies with OMFS, why not considered pursuing a MD or DO? Likely the same length of education and residency at about half the cost.
 
SigmaFS said:
If your ultimate interest lies with OMFS, why not considered pursuing a MD or DO? Likely the same length of education and residency at about half the cost.
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Well, medical doctors don’t do oral surgery.
 
The military seems like the optimal strategy for pre-dental students today. I did not do it myself, but all the dentists I've worked with have positive things to say. You avoid all the downsides of entering the profession by graduating debt-free and working in a supportive environment for a few years. @endough11 why not apply for HPSP?
 
702 said:
Well, medical doctors don’t do oral surgery.
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And if they had the option to do it, it’d be an extremely popular specialty for them. So definitely don’t agree with “might as well do MD/DO over omfs”
 
I would not worry about the loans if you are going for omfs.

You sound like an intelligent motivated student.

Omfs is the best speciality in all of healthcare, in my opinion. Many would agree with me.

myself I was planning on medicine. And then one day I got my wisdom teeth removed at age 19. I job shadowed the oral surgeon and immediately knew that this is where I was headed. Went to the same d school as the oral surgeon in shadowed and matched into an awesome 4 year omfs program straight out of school. I didn’t mess around in dental school and worked very hard. Did 10 weeks of externship. Scored a great letter of recommendation from the chair of good program. You can do the same. You just need to work hard from day 1.
 
SuxDrugs&Rocuronium said:
To any pre-dents reading this, you’ve been warned many times
Click to expand...
1740246419695.gif


Big Hoss
 
IMG_1807.jpeg


OP, that’s great you want to become an OMFS. What happens if you don’t Match? Of those that interviewed (who knows how many applied and didn’t get a single interview), only around 60% Match to OMFS. If you’re in that 40% that don’t Match, then what?

This applies to every single predent, don’t go to dental school if you won’t be content as a GP.

I would never pay what you’re looking at to become a dentist. Full stop. But, you do you.

Big Hoss
 
I just ran a few number. Assuming you graduate with 600k in dental school debt, if you go to a 6 year OMFS program your interest will balloon to $1,013,400 assuming a 9% loan interest rate. This doesn't even count medical school tuition.
 
endough11 said:
Hi everyone,

I have been conflicted for months regarding if dental school is worth it. I enjoy dentistry from what I’ve seen thus far and think I would be reasonably happy doing this for the rest of my life, but I am so discouraged by the loans. I have two deposits down at an Ivy and a public school where I can convert to in-state tuition after the first year. After interest while in school,tuition inflation each year, and origination fees the total cost would be either 670k for the ivy or 520k for the public school. I have aspirations of doing OMFS and I’d like to believe I have the aptitude for it (30 TS on DAT and did well in undergrad). I’d like to clarify that I would be happy to be a GP, if i could pay back my loans.

Am I crazy for thinking paying back the loans is impossible? The interest rate on grad plus loans is 9.08% and the SAVE plan is dead. There is also other political uncertainty that makes me scared to take out a 520k or 670k bet on myself without falling into financial ruin.

If anyone could advise me on how they are planning to pay their loans or feel you’ve made a financial mistake please comment.
Thank you everyone.
Click to expand...
I would only do it if I was for sure doing OMFS. And your chances of matching into one will be higher coming from an ivy(P/F)

At state schools that are non P/F you maybe able to score well on the didactic portion, but if it turns out you suck at cutting class 2 preps/ pros, etc. then that’s gonna hurt your rank since at the end those classes will make up the bulk of your final rank. Third and fourth year will also grade you based on how many cases you completed.

I would honestly look into HPSP/NHSC
 
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JacquesVallee said:
You're incredibly wise for worrying about this before you start. To answer your question, no, dentistry is not worth it for half a million dollars. If you do go, expect to rely on government loan forgiveness and drudge around >600k of student loan debt for 20-25 years and get ready to pay a hefty tax bomb. I finished with about 200k and would not advise going for more than 200-250k.
Click to expand...
Yup. I even did the military route with 250k COA at my state school
 
JacquesVallee said:
I just ran a few number. Assuming you graduate with 600k in dental school debt, if you go to a 6 year OMFS program your interest will balloon to $1,013,400 assuming a 9% loan interest rate. This doesn't even count medical school tuition.
Click to expand...
And what if he does well in d school, gets into a four year os program (or 6 year) straight out of school?

Some people choose to live life timid.

Others will see an opportunity, saddle up, and grab life by the horns.

Many oral surgeons went in knowing they were going for os and didn’t care much for general dentistry.
 
toothnumber32 said:
And what if he does well in d school, gets into a four year os program (or 6 year) straight out of school?

Some people choose to live life timid.

Others will see an opportunity, saddle up, and grab life by the horns.

Many oral surgeons went in knowing they were going for os and didn’t care much for general dentistry.
Click to expand...
This is a reckless mindset to have. As I've said, OP hasn't so much as touched a tooth. You didn't answer my question, what is he to do if he realizes he doesn't want to do OMFS?
 
The tuition bubble is insane, it won't pop until new student loan changes. Plenty of programs should not be operating because they have no ability to focus on keeping cost low. You graduate and have to dump tens of thousands in CE to be useful, or you dump hundreds of thousands extra and try to specialize (for the most part)
 
I’ll leave this at numbers because I obviously don’t know the job market for dentists/oral surgeons. Do you plan to go back to California when you’re done?

If you took the above rural CA job as a GP for $225k and only had the $520k debt, after taxes you can live on $95k a year to pay off the loan in 30 years. If you live on $60k, you’re done in 12 years. That hurts to type.

An extra 4 years for OMFS if available would still take you to $750k with the interest. My general experience in lower tax states is that you can knock out big debt if you’re pretty aggressive in these timeframes:
- 2 years if pre-tax income matches the debt
- 4 years if income is 75% of debt
- 10 years if income is 50% of debt

Note that if you buy into/start a practice the clock starts again.

Edit: mistakenly put $570k when I meant $520k previously
 
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hypothetically, y'all got any other career suggestions besides becoming pre-med and pursuing medical school?

my 2 in-state schools currently have a COA of 447k and 467k (no interest while in school, origination fees, tuition inflation). i don't love my chances of getting into say the Texas schools if i reapplied so if there's other careers you'd advise me to consider i'd like to hear them (and advise my college's predental club too potentially).

thanks in advance!
 
endough11 said:
hypothetically, y'all got any other career suggestions besides becoming pre-med and pursuing medical school?

my 2 in-state schools currently have a COA of 447k and 467k (no interest while in school, origination fees, tuition inflation). i don't love my chances of getting into say the Texas schools if i reapplied so if there's other careers you'd advise me to consider i'd like to hear them (and advise my college's predental club too potentially).

thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
Healthcare across the board is not what it used to be…

Big Hoss
 
endough11 said:
hypothetically, y'all got any other career suggestions besides becoming pre-med and pursuing medical school?

my 2 in-state schools currently have a COA of 447k and 467k (no interest while in school, origination fees, tuition inflation). i don't love my chances of getting into say the Texas schools if i reapplied so if there's other careers you'd advise me to consider i'd like to hear them (and advise my college's predental club too potentially).

thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
Certified anesthesiology assistant or
RN—>BSN—> CRNA.
 
Do medicine! Plastic Surgery and ENT have a lot of overlap with OMFS as well as similar earning potential. Moreover, you'll graduate with half the debt!
 
JacquesVallee said:
and if he realizes he doesn't want to do OMFS? Dude has never even touched a tooth yet.
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THIS! And has not worked in the hospital and seen all the misery with OMFS training. There's a reason why OMFS has the highest attrition rate among specialties.
 
toothnumber32 said:
And what if he does well in d school, gets into a four year os program (or 6 year) straight out of school?

Some people choose to live life timid.

Others will see an opportunity, saddle up, and grab life by the horns.

Many oral surgeons went in knowing they were going for os and didn’t care much for general dentistry.
Click to expand...

There was a guy a few years behind me that came in saying "OMS or bust!" He failed out of dental school after the first semester. Of course this was back when we used to get grades in our courses. Sounds like dental school has also fallen prey to the "P/F, gold stars and cookies for everyone" grading system and we have some real unprepared graduates being let loose out there.
 
throwaway20 said:
Do medicine! Plastic Surgery and ENT have a lot of overlap with OMFS as well as similar earning potential. Moreover, you'll graduate with half the debt!
Click to expand...
Nah this is ridiculous. You think it’s easier to take the MCAT, get accepted to medical school, score highly on Step, and then finally match to a very competitive medical specialty, than if he just matched OMFS from an Ivy League dental school - which he is already accepted to?

Medical school debt is no joke either. The difference from dental school is trivial if you specialize.
 
endough11 said:
hypothetically, y'all got any other career suggestions besides becoming pre-med and pursuing medical school?

my 2 in-state schools currently have a COA of 447k and 467k (no interest while in school, origination fees, tuition inflation). i don't love my chances of getting into say the Texas schools if i reapplied so if there's other careers you'd advise me to consider i'd like to hear them (and advise my college's predental club too potentially).

thanks in advance!
Click to expand...
There aren't a lot of better options out there. Since you are willing to go rural....I think you should stick to dentistry and pick the school that charges lower tuition.
 
670k at the end of dental school... This will easily be a million by the time you finish omfs residency. Then, maybe you have to do a 1 year fellowship as OR time is competitive at hospitals, so add on another year of low pay and interest accruing. I am 9 years out of dental school, I have earned a decent salary the whole time, nothing amazing, I've been investing, I was able to buy a house years ago when it was way cheaper, I was able to buy stocks when they were much cheaper. My friend is still on the OMFS path. When he finishes, he will have no home equity, he will have to buy a home when it is massively more expensive, start investing when stocks are much more expensive. On top of that, he will have to pay a huge school debt. At some point, the high salary isn't worth it. Now that I am 9 years out I am earning a good income, I don't think my OMFS friend will catch up to me financially for atleast 10-15 more years. This will be 20 years after graduating dental school - basically close to retirement age. At that point, it will be who can work to an older age - probably easier to do as a dentist than omfs?
 
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mangler said:
Nah this is ridiculous. You think it’s easier to take the MCAT, get accepted to medical school, score highly on Step, and then finally match to a very competitive medical specialty, than if he just matched OMFS from an Ivy League dental school - which he is already accepted to?

Medical school debt is no joke either. The difference from dental school is trivial if you specialize.
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Yup. It's way tougher to get into med school. My friend's twin daughters both got 4.0 undergrad GPA at USC. One got 526 and the other one got 518 on the MCAT. The one with the 526 score got into a very good med school. But the one with the 518 is still waiting....and it's kind of late. Even the ultra expensive USC medical school doesn't want her.

My son will apply for med schools this coming summer. If he doesn't get in, dentistry will be his back up plan.
 
FosterWallace said:
Yup, plus in private practice OMFS makes more than ENT
Click to expand...

The success of a private OMFS practice depends on the relationship that the OS owner has with his/her referring GPs. Here in SoCal, there are plenty of private OS owners who have to travel to work at other offices to supplement their income.
 
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Consider HPSP/NHSC. Although these will hinder your aspirations for OMS.
 
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D1Bound said:
No it won’t
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Unless something has changed, you cannot do OMS for an NHSC scholarship. The only allowed postgrad training is a GPR/AEGD or peds.
My understanding is military do not typically take students straight from school. 🤷‍♂️
 
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