Incomplete spinal

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brmc

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Did a spinal got motor block no sensory block. how, or why.
26 Y/O female ASA 2 presents for PPTL, weight 140 lbs body habitus is normal. 25 g needle get good flow positive barratige, place 1.5cc of .75 % bupivicaine with 20mcg fentanyl and lie patient down and place in slight trendelenberg. Pt states feet are tingling within 5 sec. Get a motor block no sensory block, Do a quick general. WTF happened?
 
Did she just freak out over the pressure, or was she really feeling pain? How far did the OB's get in the procedure?
 
felt pain at injection of local and at cut, it failed just motor block.
 
Did a spinal got motor block no sensory block. how, or why.
26 Y/O female ASA 2 presents for PPTL, weight 140 lbs body habitus is normal. 25 g needle get good flow positive barratige, place 1.5cc of .75 % bupivicaine with 20mcg fentanyl and lie patient down and place in slight trendelenberg. Pt states feet are tingling within 5 sec. Get a motor block no sensory block, Do a quick general. WTF happened?
Ok,
Here is what happens usually:
You insert your needle and you get CSF then somewhere in the middle of your injection you move the needle and a certain amount of your medicine does not go intrathecally, so you get a very low level block, let's say L5 or so, this will give you some motor and sensory block in the lower extremities ( you mentioned tingling feet) but hardly any block in the abdomen.
So when you said no sensory block this was not entirely accurate, you had a low block that's all.
This gets better with experience and your hands should get more steady over time.
 
did not think I moved my hands but appreciate the advice. Thanks.
 
did not think I moved my hands but appreciate the advice. Thanks.

Did you aspirate at the end to ensure you were still intrathecal? My bet is not. I'm with Plankton.

-copro
 
Did a spinal got motor block no sensory block. how, or why.
26 Y/O female ASA 2 presents for PPTL, weight 140 lbs body habitus is normal. 25 g needle get good flow positive barratige, place 1.5cc of .75 % bupivicaine with 20mcg fentanyl and lie patient down and place in slight trendelenberg. Pt states feet are tingling within 5 sec. Get a motor block no sensory block, Do a quick general. WTF happened?

Call your attending anesthesiologist. He'll know how to handle this. Just worry about keeping the chart up to date.
 
Solo crna no anesthesiologist, if I need any charting I will be sure to call you.
 
I did aspirate and got barritage as I stated in the first post
 
I did aspirate and got barritage as I stated in the first post
You keep saying this strange word!
I think you want to say: barbotage.
Barbotage: repeated aspiration and injection to augment the level of the spinal block or decrease the barricity, could lead to high spinal in the wrong hands.
 
i would not have put her to sleep. I would have sat her up and tried again
 
That's weird. That's not possible even if your needle had moved outside the intrathecal space and you only got some of your solution into the csf . Was the patient crazy to begin with? She was probably just imagining the pain...otherwise, i agree with the low block theory.
 
This sounds like a classic case of a subdural block -- you get CSF on aspiration, inject your local, but only anesthetize the efferents and none of the afferents.

Either that or you injected within a nerve root sheath (i.e. you were off to the side). This will give you CSF return, albeit a bit more slow than you'd typically expect, and a partial block.

I probably would've tried one more time ... if still no joy, on to GA.

Anyways, live and learn.
 
This sounds like a classic case of a subdural block -- you get CSF on aspiration, inject your local, but only anesthetize the efferents and none of the afferents.

Either that or you injected within a nerve root sheath (i.e. you were off to the side). This will give you CSF return, albeit a bit more slow than you'd typically expect, and a partial block.

I probably would've tried one more time ... if still no joy, on to GA.

Anyways, live and learn.

I have to disagree with both your theories:
1- There is no CSF in the subdural space, to get CSF you have to be subarachnoid.
2- If you inject in a nerve root cuff you will usually get a good spinal because it communicates freely with the intrathecal compartment although it might be more on one side and you might end up with nerve root injury.
 
Did you aspirate at the end to ensure you were still intrathecal? My bet is not. I'm with Plankton.

-copro

I always aspirate at the end too, but I have one attending who hates this. What he says kind of makes sense, if you don't get any csf when you're almost done injecting anyways what are you going to do about it?

Also, in a failed spinal, how much would you use the second time? Half? 3/4?
 
... if you don't get any csf when you're almost done injecting anyways what are you going to do about it?

Well, first off you're going to suspect that your injection didn't go intrathecally (kinda obvious, I know). And, this will allow you to begin to suspect that you're going to have an incomplete block. You start formulating an alternate plan.

Also, in a failed spinal, how much would you use the second time? Half? 3/4?

What you can do is to continue to allow the patient to sit up. You are using hyperbaric solution, so you are going to get whatever you injected into the intrathecal space settle into a saddle block, while you re-prepare a new kit/solution. I would then reposition at the next higher interspace and re-inject the same amount. When you lay the patient down, you just have to be prepared for a higher than expected level. Worst case scenario is that you get a very high spinal, and you have to do what you would've had to do anyway (i.e., intubate and do a GA). The solution you inject is gravity dependent, though. So, you are just likely to get a really dense block at the appropriate dermatomes. No barbotage, but still small aspiration at the end to re-confirm you are intrathecal.

That's just my $0.02.

-copro
 
W
What you can do is to continue to allow the patient to sit up. You are using hyperbaric solution, so you are going to get whatever you injected into the intrathecal space settle into a saddle block, while you re-prepare a new kit/solution. I would then reposition at the next higher interspace and re-inject the same amount. When you lay the patient down, you just have to be prepared for a higher than expected level. Worst case scenario is that you get a very high spinal, and you have to do what you would've had to do anyway (i.e., intubate and do a GA). The solution you inject is gravity dependent, though. So, you are just likely to get a really dense block at the appropriate dermatomes. No barbotage, but still small aspiration at the end to re-confirm you are intrathecal.

How many times have you done that?

Worst case scenario is not doing GA for a high spinal. Is a code in a healthy patient, which could end the pt's life and/or your career.
 
How many times have you done that?

Zero. I have always confirmed that I've been intrathecal at the end of the "push", and have not (yet) had a failed spinal. I've had a spinal or two that has started to wear off before the case was done (i.e., before the skin was closed), but that's nothing a little ketamine and nitrous hasn't been able to fix.

Worst case scenario is not doing GA for a high spinal. Is a code in a healthy patient, which could end the pt's life and/or your career.

Do patients routinely "code" with a high spinal? I've heard of total spinals happening (in healthy patients) but I've never heard of one coding. You have to give appropriate pressor support (etc.) and secure the airway, but coding?

-copro
 
Do patients routinely "code" with a high spinal? I've heard of total spinals happening (in healthy patients) but I've never heard of one coding. You have to give appropriate pressor support (etc.) and secure the airway, but coding?

-copro

From the apsf website:


Cardiac Arrests During Spinal Anesthesia
Review of Persisting Problem

by John B. Pollard, MD

In 1988, Caplan et al. reported 14 unexplained cardiac arrests during spinal anesthesia and, recognizing that hypovolemia played an important role, they suggested that '"prompt augmentation of central venous filling might have lessened the damage."1 Despite this warning, similar arrests have continued to occur with approximately one1 arrest for every 1,000 spinal anesthetics.2-5 The severity of injury has remained high and there are currently 170 cases of cardiac arrest during spinal or epidural anesthesia in the ASA Closed Claims Study database and almost 90% of these claims are for brain damage or death.6

Initial misconceptions about the etiology of these arrests may have delayed progress in treating and preventing these arrests.7-9 It is now rare for these arrests to be attributed to respiratory depression or "high" spinal anesthesia.2,10,11 Evidence for a common circulatory etiology comes from studies using healthy volunteers who have experienced bradycardia or cardiac arrest in settings that mimic the effects of sympathetic blockade. Jacobsen et al.12 studied the effect of sympathetic blockade on left ventricular (LV) diameter with echocardiography in eight unpremedicated volunteers and observed that two of them developed bradycardia and hypotension with epidural anesthetic levels of T8 and T9. These effects coincided with a reduction in LV diameter and were reversed by head-down positioning with rapid infusion of IV fluids. The increased levels of human pancreatic peptide associated these episodes of bradycardia are consistent with vagal activation.

Preload Central

It is well established that vagal responses can be triggered by decreases in preload. In fact, cardiac vagal tone is enhanced primarily through decreased venous return.13 This effect can be profound. Reductions in right atrial pressures of 36% with spinal anesthesia levels below T4 and by 53% after higher levels of blockade have been reported.14 These effects can be attributed to vasodilation with redistribution of central blood volume to the lower extremities and splanchnic beds. With acute blood loss or "third-space" fluid loss, these effects are even more pronounced with decreases in central venous pressure during spinal anesthesia of 66% or higher.15,16

Such decreases in preload may initiate reflexes that cause severe bradycardia. Three such reflexes have been suggested.17 The first involves the pacemaker stretch. The rate of firing of these cells within the myocardium is proportional to the degree of stretch. Decreased venous return results in decreased stretch and a slower heart rate. The second reflex may be attributable to the firing of low-pressure baroreceptors in the right atrium and vena cava. The third is the Bezold-Jarisch reflex in which receptors in the left ventricle are stimulated by a decrease in ventricular volume and cause bradycardia. This reflex slowing should allow time for more complete filling of the heart.

These vagal responses to decreases in preload cause more than bradycardia. A study of negative pressure applied to the lower body to cause functional hypovolemia demonstrated progressive vagal symptoms including sweating, nausea and syncope.18 One subject progressed from vagal symptoms to abrupt sinus arrest. In a separate study, two subjects experienced vagal arrests after 10mL/kg of blood was withdrawn to simulate acute blood loss with epidural block levels of T4 to T6.19

Taken together, these studies demonstrate that hypovolemia can precipitate not only classic vagal symptoms, but also full cardiac arrest in healthy patients. While one might assume that maintaining preload during spinal anesthesia is a consistent priority for anesthetists, the literature demonstrates otherwise. Geffin and Shapiro reported that preloading with a bolus of 300 mL was not practiced during the period when they experienced 12 cases of severe bradycardia or full arrest during spinal anesthesia.4

Even with conventional fluid management during a spinal anesthetic, decreases in preload can occur so quickly with altering patient position, releasing a tourniquet and other common perioperative events that there may not be time to give sufficient volumes of fluid over several minutes. When an abrupt decrease in preload is suspected, elevating the legs while rapidly infusing fluids can be helpful. If this does not rapidly reverse vagal symptoms, then other treatments should be considered. Anticipating an impending cardiac arrest can be difficult because hypovolemia and the subsequent increase in vagal tone may manifest initially as only mild nausea or diaphoresis. Treating the source of these symptoms is appropriate especially if the patient has strong resting vagal tone, a block level above T6 or other risk factors for severe bradycardia and cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia.11 Multiple simultaneous interventions may be necessary to prevent vagal predominance. Gratadour et al.20 reported that neither volume loading nor infusion of a mixed alpha- and beta-agent during spinal anesthesia was not sufficient to prevent three study patients from experiencing bradycardia and hypotension associated with increased baroreflex activity during spinal anesthesia. When nausea, bradycardia or hypotension are evident during spinal anesthesia, additional volume loading, the use of a vasopressor, and prophylactic treatment with atropine should all be considered.

Atropine is recommended to counteract increased baroreflex activity during spinal anesthesia because glycopyrrolate is ineffective in this setting.5,21 Prophylactic treatment of bradycardia with atropine may decrease the frequency and morbidity of the arrests that occur during spinal anesthesia. Brown et al. reported only three cardiac arrests during a period when 10,080 spinal anesthetics were performed and none of the arrests resulted in "neurologic injury."9 This was attributed to vigilance and their "willingness to utilize IV atropine (0.4-0.6 mg), ephedrine (25-50 mg), and epinephrine (0.2-0.3 mg) in stepwise escalation of therapy when bradycardia develops following spinal anesthesia." Similarly, Geffin and Shapiro reported full recovery in all 12 patients treated for bradycardia or asystole following spinal anesthesia.10 This treatment included atropine for 11 of the 12 cases and it was typically used in combination with a vasopressor (ephedrine, epinephrine or phenylephrine). Atropine and a vasopressor (ephedrine) were also utilized in the five successful resuscitations reported by Lovstad et al.22 Taken together this represents 20 successful resuscitations in settings where atropine is used as the first line therapy.

Unfortunately not all of the arrests that occur during spinal anesthesia are successfully treated and fatal arrests still occur in healthy patients.2 With severe bradycardia or full cardiac arrest, the prompt use of epinephrine is recommended.1,9,23 Currently, epinephrine is used in less than one-half of these arrests and up to 25% of the arrests during spinal anesthesia arrests are fatal.2

Summary

While many factors can contribute to cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia, vagal responses to hypovolemia often play a key role. Patients with risk factors for bradycardia or those with other vagal symptoms may be at increased risk for cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia. This has important implications. Spinal anesthesia may not be the best choice for a patient with vagotonia or for a procedure where rapid blood loss is likely. When a spinal anesthetic is selected, maintaining preload should be a priority and prophylactic preloading with a bolus of IV fluid should not be omitted.

Standard regimens for volume preloading may not be sufficient to maintain adequate preload, so a low threshold for administering additional fluid boluses or using a vasopressor may be appropriate. For patients with bradycardia during spinal anesthesia, the stepwise escalation of treatment of bradycardia with atropine (0.4-0.6 mg), ephedrine (25-50 mg) and if necessary epinephrine (0.2-0.3 mg) may be indicated. For cardiac arrest, full resuscitation doses of epinephrine and atropine, additional volume loading and transcutaneous pacing should all be considered. With the popularity of spinal anesthesia and the reported frequency of these arrests, the potential impact of these interventions on further improving the safety of spinal anesthesia could be substantial.

Dr. Pollard is the Associate Chief of Staff for Education at the VA Palo Alto Health Care System and an Assistant Professor in the Department of Anesthesia, Stanford University, Stanford, California. ([email protected])

References

1. Caplan RA, Ward RJ, Posner K, Cheney FW. Unexpected cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia: a closed claims analysis of predisposing factors. Anesthesiology. 1988;68:5-11.

2. Auroy Y, Narchi P, Messiah A, et al. Serious complications related to regional anesthesia. Anesthesiology. 1997; 87:479-86.

3. Palmer SK. What is the incidence of arrest and near arrest during spinal and epidural analgesia? Report of nine years' experience in an academic group practice. Anesth Analg. 2001; 92: S339.

4. Geffin B, Shapiro L. Sinus bradycardia and asystole during spinal and epidural anesthesia: a report of 13 cases. J Clin Anesth. 1998; 10:278-85.

5. Tarkkila PJ, Kaukinen S. Complications during spinal anesthesia: a prospective study. Reg Anesth. 1991;16:101-6.

6. Pembrook L. Unforeseen, sudden cardiac arrests continue in healthy patients. Anesthesiology News. October 2000;123-5.

7. Abramowitz J. Cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia, I (letter). Anesthesiology. 1988;68:970.

8. Zornow MH, Scheller MS. Cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia, II (letter). Anesthesiology. 1988;68:970-1.

9. Brown DL et al. Cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia, III (letter). Anesthesiology. 1988;68:971-2.

10. Geffin B, Shapiro L. Sinus bradycardia and asystole during spinal and epidural anesthesia: a report of 13 cases. J Clin Anesth. 1998;10:278-85.

11. Pollard JB. Cardiac arrest during spinal anesthesia: common mechanisms and strategies for prevention. Anesth Analg. 2001;92:252-6.

12. Jacobsen J, Sofelt S, Brocks V, et al. Reduced left ventricular diameters at onset of bradycardia during epidural anesthesia. Acta Anaesthesio Scand. 1992; 10:831-6.

13. Baron J, Decaux-Jacolot A, Edouard A, et al. Influence of venous return on baroreflex control of heart rate during lumbar epidural anesthesia in humans. Anesthesiology. 1986;64:188-93.

14. Sancetta SM, Lynn RB, Simeone FA, Scott RW. Studies of hemodynamic changes in Humans following induction of low and high spinal anesthesia. Circ. 1952; 6:559-71.

15. Kennedy WF, Bonica JJ, Akamatsu TJ, et al. Cardiovascular and respiratory effects of subarachnoid block in the presence of acute blood loss. Anesthesiology. 1968; 29:29-35.

16. Lynn R, Sancetta S, Simeone F, Scott R. Observations on the circulation in high spinal anesthesia. Surgery. 1952; 32:195-213.

17. Mackey DC, Carpenter RL, Thompson GE, et al. Bradycardia and asystole during spinal anesthesia: a report of three cases without morbidity. Anesthesiology. 1989; 70:866-8.

18. Murray RH, Thompson LJ, Bowers JA, Albright CD. Hemodynamic effects of graded hypovolemia and vasodepressor syncope induced by lower body negative pressure. Am Heart J. 1968; 76:799-809.

19. Bonica JJ, Kennedy WF, Akamatsu TJ, Gerbershagen HU. Circulatory effects of peridural block: effects of acute blood loss. Anesthesiology. 1972;36:219-27.

20. Gratadour P, Viale JP, Parlow J, et al. Sympathovagal effects of spinal anesthesia assessed by the spontaneous cardiac barereflex. Anesthesiology. 1997;871359-67.

21. Carpenter RL, Mackey DC. Glycopyrrolate does not prevent bradycardia during spinal anesthesia. Anesth Analg. 1990;70:S51.

22. Lovstad RZ, Granhus G, Hetland S. Bradycardia and asystolic arrest during spinal anaesthesia: a report of five cases. ACTA Anaesthesiol Scand. 2000;44:48-52.

23. Rosenberg J, Wahr J, Sung C, et al. Coronary perfusion pressure during cardiopulmonary resuscitaton after spinal anesthesia in dogs. Anesth Analg. 1996;82; 84-7.
 
And I state again...

You have to give appropriate pressor support (etc.) and secure the airway, but coding?

You cite a paper where hemodynamic changes were unrecognized in a timely manner in a series of reported cases (which represents a remarkably small number considering the number of c-sections performed in the U.S. everyday) where the authors equally admit earlier, appropriate treatment likely would've prevented M&M. And, certainly I would hope that an unanticipated unconscious and/or bradycardic patient would clue a vigilant anesthesiologist into the fact that there is a problem and treatment should be started. I don't know about you, but we keep phenylephrine, ephedrine, atropine, and 10mcg/mL epinephrine drawn-up and ready to go right next to the patient with every section we do.

So, I have to call "bad practitioner" on this one, and still stand by the fact that coding is a rare and preventable phenomenon not caused by the high spinal itself (which the paper clearly states) but instead failure to recognize and properly treat hemodynamic changes.

-copro

(edit to add: But, thanks for posting this paper. It's a great reminder to everyone to be vigilant that this can occur with any spinal, not just a re-dose. And, you need to be ready to treat accordingly, quickly, and appropriately. We give all our scheduled sections a 2L pre-load of crystalloid before we take them to the OR.)
 
How much do you guys put in your hyperbaric spinals?

Most people I know who want to get a T10 level put in 1.2cc of .75% bupi.

others say, "it's about how tall the pt is" and will put in more 1.2-1.4.

I've only seen attendings say, "taller people should get more". But is there a formula? For example, for every centimeter a certain amount of LA should be used. Or is it just 'winging it' and experience?

Thanks
 
How much do you guys put in your hyperbaric spinals?

Most people I know who want to get a T10 level put in 1.2cc of .75% bupi.

others say, "it's about how tall the pt is" and will put in more 1.2-1.4.

I've only seen attendings say, "taller people should get more". But is there a formula? For example, for every centimeter a certain amount of LA should be used. Or is it just 'winging it' and experience?

Thanks

As I mentioned on another thread, some will put 2cc of 0.75% bupivicaine (which is 15mg!!). I don't do this. Depending on how long they are going to take, usually 1.3-1.5mL suffices for most average women, unless they are really short where you use less. If you lay them down quickly enough, the lordosis in the thoracolumbar spine is usually adequate to prevent too high of a spread. Just make sure your patient is adequately fluid loaded before you do the spinal, as well.

-copro
 
Routinely 1.6-1.8 mL 0.75% Bupiv. 1.6 for "shorter" but no hard and fast rule, 5'2" maybe? 1.4 if less than 5'0". Our sections are on the long side and we aim for higher than T10. Occasionally will use a tiny bit of epi but can't say I see much difference with it. I'll have to look up the most recent literature on that one.
 
I have to disagree with both your theories:
1- There is no CSF in the subdural space, to get CSF you have to be subarachnoid.
2- If you inject in a nerve root cuff you will usually get a good spinal because it communicates freely with the intrathecal compartment although it might be more on one side and you might end up with nerve root injury.


Sorry it took so long to respond ...

Yes, Plankton, there's no CSF in the subdural space. But if someone fails to elict barbotage post-injection, how do you know you didn't accidentally move the needle out of the subarachnoid space?

You don't.

You're going to look for clinical evidence of success (i.e. surgical anesthesia). In this case, the patient developed a dense motor block but no sensory block. If anything, it should've been the other way around since motor fibres are thicker than sensory fibres, which is why sensation is the first to go (I know you already know this; most of this commentary is for our more junior colleagues).

So, how to explain a dense motor block but a failed sensory block, since clearly the anesthetic injected wasn't placebo?

Well, you might originally have been in the subarachnoid space, as evidenced by CSF return initially, but during the course of the injection, the needle moved just enough to become subdural resulting in a more loculated and differential block. And failure to get CSF post-injection might clue you in to thinking that you should be on the lookout for an inadequate block and making appropriate plans as alluded to above. But that didn't happen in this case because the op did not mention whether they looked for barbotage post injection.

In terms of "theory number two," while it's true that CSF within the nerve rootlet sheath is continuous with the CSF surrounding the spinal cord, there is no guarantee that anesthetic injected in the peri-neurally will spread sufficiently to produce surgical anesthesia. And who knows the reasons -- septae, osteophytes, inadequate LA concentration, whatever, who knows.

But if you're getting motor block and no sensory block, my guess is the anesthetic is diffusing only into the motor fibres and not into the sensory fibres. Now, why would anesthetics diffuse only into one nerve, but not another nerve? Answer: Access to the nerve.

If the anesthetic is deposited in such a manner as to access only the motor fibres, but not the sensory fibres, then both of these "theories" explain the mechanism for that not uncommon phenomenon.

Plankton, in your earlier post you had suggested that the op had found the subarachnoid space but during the course of injection may have moved out of the SAS resulting in inadequate LA deposition and thus inadequate block. I'm curious as to how you would explain the dense motor block but failure to achieve sensory block, when we know sensory fibres are the first to go? If anything, there should've been inadequate sensory block and no motor block.
 
I'm curious as to how you would explain the dense motor block but failure to achieve sensory block, when we know sensory fibres are the first to go? If anything, there should've been inadequate sensory block and no motor block.

I'll field this one...

Maybe brmc (who's now banned) got it backwards (i.e., had a good sensory but no motor block - like you'd get with pure opioid) or just lied and/or made up the story. This is an Internet forum, after all. My feeling is that if they truly had a dense motor block, but no sensory block, this should be - at the very least - a case report.

-copro
 
Sorry it took so long to respond ...

Yes, Plankton, there's no CSF in the subdural space. But if someone fails to elict barbotage post-injection, how do you know you didn't accidentally move the needle out of the subarachnoid space?

You don't.

You're going to look for clinical evidence of success (i.e. surgical anesthesia). In this case, the patient developed a dense motor block but no sensory block. If anything, it should've been the other way around since motor fibres are thicker than sensory fibres, which is why sensation is the first to go (I know you already know this; most of this commentary is for our more junior colleagues).

So, how to explain a dense motor block but a failed sensory block, since clearly the anesthetic injected wasn't placebo?

Well, you might originally have been in the subarachnoid space, as evidenced by CSF return initially, but during the course of the injection, the needle moved just enough to become subdural resulting in a more loculated and differential block. And failure to get CSF post-injection might clue you in to thinking that you should be on the lookout for an inadequate block and making appropriate plans as alluded to above. But that didn't happen in this case because the op did not mention whether they looked for barbotage post injection.

In terms of "theory number two," while it's true that CSF within the nerve rootlet sheath is continuous with the CSF surrounding the spinal cord, there is no guarantee that anesthetic injected in the peri-neurally will spread sufficiently to produce surgical anesthesia. And who knows the reasons -- septae, osteophytes, inadequate LA concentration, whatever, who knows.

But if you're getting motor block and no sensory block, my guess is the anesthetic is diffusing only into the motor fibres and not into the sensory fibres. Now, why would anesthetics diffuse only into one nerve, but not another nerve? Answer: Access to the nerve.

If the anesthetic is deposited in such a manner as to access only the motor fibres, but not the sensory fibres, then both of these "theories" explain the mechanism for that not uncommon phenomenon.

Plankton, in your earlier post you had suggested that the op had found the subarachnoid space but during the course of injection may have moved out of the SAS resulting in inadequate LA deposition and thus inadequate block. I'm curious as to how you would explain the dense motor block but failure to achieve sensory block, when we know sensory fibres are the first to go? If anything, there should've been inadequate sensory block and no motor block.

I am not sure he actually got a motor block and no sensory block, I think he got a low level block because the amount injected was too little, so the patient couldn't move her legs (the innervation of leg muscles is from L1 to S2), so a block up to L2 will give you a good motor and sensory block in the lower extremities but no block in the abdomen (T12 and above).
Now, if an Anesthesiologist who understands anatomy said there is motor block and no sensory block then I would take it more seriously and try to investigate it further.
Your explanations, on the other hand, are definitely conceivable.
 
this was posted
at the end of day a human will remain human and a monkey will remain monkey, i.e a doc will always be a doc and a nurse will always be a nurse
and this was the reply
and a medical student a medical student
 
this was posted
at the end of day a human will remain human and a monkey will remain monkey, i.e a doc will always be a doc and a nurse will always be a nurse
and this was the reply
and a medical student a medical student

Well, assuming for a second that this isn't "brmc" in another incarnation (don't know why brmc would want to come back to this place unless he/she felt he/she had something to prove), all I can say is that it appears the former poster has quite a chip on his/her shoulder, including sending 'yours truly' an unsolicited PM on one occassion admonishing me about how I should behave.

So, I can only assume that this decision was based on the summation of an unacceptable pattern of antagonism on a physician/student physician forum, which I think is also clearly evidenced by his/her snarky responses earlier in this thread. Perhaps this post, if we are to take it at face value, was simply the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back."

And, for the record, a medical student will not always be a medical student. When they graduate, they will be called "doctor". At the very least, brmc was factually incorrect.

-copro
 
I am not sure he actually got a motor block and no sensory block, I think he got a low level block because the amount injected was too little, so the patient couldn't move her legs (the innervation of leg muscles is from L1 to S2), so a block up to L2 will give you a good motor and sensory block in the lower extremities but no block in the abdomen (T12 and above).

.


Okay, fair enough.
 
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