Incredibly discouraged. Considering giving up

[FutureDr8429033]

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I could write a novel here, but I will keep it relatively short.

The application process has kicked my ass and all but completely broken my spirit. Twice. For the second year in a row I'm facing the prospect of being rejected from every school I applied to despite have competitive stats (3.63 w/ a 2.6 freshman year, balanced 32Q) and more than competitive ECs, some of which are very unique. I'm 30 years old. I have a graduate degree in a health science. I have spent years working in health care in several different capacities. I've shadowed docs in several different specialties, and I've volunteered. I worked nearly full-time while attending school full-time. I've sacrificed money and earning potential, free-time, relationships, vacations, you name it, to pursue my passion and my dream of attending medical school and becoming a physician. And for what? To watch 24 year olds I know with sub 30 MCAT scores, 3.2 gpas and ho-hum ECs get accepted while I experience the shame and humiliation of rejection. To watch others with competitive stats similar to my own, but with less real-world experience, saunter into med. school on their first try with no problems at all.

If I were a sub-par applicant, I could at least understand this. Yes, there are hordes of qualified applicants. But I am no less qualified than the majority of students nationwide who are accepted. It is maddening and, in my opinion, deplorable that I am deemed somehow unworthy by the "gatekeepers" of this profession, while so many starry-eyed, generic, neophyte applicants are welcomed with open arms.

Forgive me if I sound bitter or jaded. I am. I have given everything I can give, and I have received no validation whatsoever. This process is not a meritocracy. It's a capricious and masturbatory popularity contest, as far as I can tell.

Maybe my luck will change. Maybe I'll get pulled off of a waitlist. If I don't, I'll probably apply to DO schools next year, even though that's a huge compromise for me (personally....no disrespect). Please forgive me for what is obviously just a lot of venting. I am struggling to understand why this has happened to me, and schools are essentially blowing me off when I request feedback. In person I am not at all a miserable or whiney person. I am a good interviewer, and I've been offered every job I've ever interviewed for. I'm just done. I'm sick and tired, and I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my gut. All is not right in the world. Hard work doesn't always pay off. Sacrifice is sometimes in vain. Thank you for listening.

 

[tkim]

If I don't, I'll probably apply to DO schools next year, even though that's a huge compromise for me (personally....no disrespect).

Don't compromise. Stick with the MD. There's always next year. Good luck.

 

[0919mmk]

I could write a novel here, but I will keep it relatively short.

The application process has kicked my ass and all but completely broken my spirit. Twice. For the second year in a row I'm facing the prospect of being rejected from every school I applied to despite have competitive stats (3.63 w/ a 2.6 freshman year, balanced 32Q) and more than competitive ECs, some of which are very unique. I'm 30 years old. I have a graduate degree in a health science. I have spent years working in health care in several different capacities. I've shadowed docs in several different specialties, and I've volunteered. I worked nearly full-time while attending school full-time. I've sacrificed money and earning potential, free-time, relationships, vacations, you name it, to pursue my passion and my dream of attending medical school and becoming a physician. And for what? To watch 24 year olds I know with sub 30 MCAT scores, 3.2 gpas and ho-hum ECs get accepted while I experience the shame and humiliation of rejection. To watch others with competitive stats similar to my own, but with less real-world experience, saunter into med. school on their first try with no problems at all.

If I were a sub-par applicant, I could at least understand this. Yes, there are hordes of qualified applicants. But I am no less qualified than the majority of students nationwide who are accepted. It is maddening and, in my opinion, deplorable that I am deemed somehow unworthy by the "gatekeepers" of this profession, while so many starry-eyed, generic, neophyte applicants are welcomed with open arms.

Forgive me if I sound bitter or jaded. I am. I have given everything I can give, and I have received no validation whatsoever. This process is not a meritocracy. It's a capricious and masturbatory popularity contest, as far as I can tell.

Maybe my luck will change. Maybe I'll get pulled off of a waitlist. If I don't, I'll probably apply to DO schools next year, even though that's a huge compromise for me (personally....no disrespect). Please forgive me for what is obviously just a lot of venting. I am struggling to understand why this has happened to me, and schools are essentially blowing me off when I request feedback. In person I am not at all a miserable or whiney person. I am a good interviewer, and I've been offered every job I've ever interviewed for. I'm just done. I'm sick and tired, and I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my gut. All is not right in the world. Hard work doesn't always pay off. Sacrifice is sometimes in vain. Thank you for listening.

Listen, this sucks for you, but your attitude right now, if justified, won't help you. I know how you feel - I am reapplying this summer after getting 2 waitlists and an acceptance a year ago that didn't work out for crazy reasons. It's frustrating, but you are hardly alone - remember that in any given cycle there are just as many people getting in nowhere as get accepted. It sucks, but that's the system.

If I were you, I'd really try to get to the bottom of what's going on (and something IS going on). Your stats are fine, and you say your ECs are good, and I believe you. Here are potential things to look for (all I can do is guess):

1) Did you apply widely enough? For ANY 30 year old, you'd better be applying to >22 schools.

2) Did you interview well? I believe that you are not normally as "whiny" as you sound in your post, and that you are justifiably frustrated. But are you sure that you are a good interviewer? Are you sure that you are not coming off somewhat superior or overly headstrong?

3) DO schools. You say they are a huge compromise for you. Well, no, they probably aren't. I thought so too the first cycle I applied. Now, I have shadowed some DOs, looked at the match lists, and realized that a) you are really only losing out on some people's shallow perception of prestige by having DO instead of MD after your name, and b) it's hard to get in to DO schools too. Lots of people get rejected. I had a 32 MCAT last cycle, I'm waiting on new MCAT results right now, and if I get less than 32, I am taking it again because I want to go to med school, whether DO or MD. For anyone to say that DO is below them, well, I can't really respect that statement, sorry.

Bottom line, keep calling the schools till you get someone who will tell you what happened. Failing that, talk to friends/family/strangers, and find out if you are coming off the wrong way in the interview, which is the quickest way for a decent applicant to become a dead in the water applicant. Your stats are good, but not so good that you are a shoe-in by any means. Rubbing an interviewer the wrong way could explain everything.

I really do wish you the best. I dont mean to be overly critical, just trying to help you get some perspective and figure out what's up. Good luck moving forward.

 

[Jlaw]

I think you need to take an honest look at the process. Assuming all you say is true then the first question to ask is did you apply broadly? If you only applied to 3 schools in one area that might be an issue. Also, don't most schools give you feedback if you contact them after a rejection? You should follow up with some of these places, find out exactly why the adcoms made the decision they made and then see what is in your power to fix. If there is some obvious red flag then getting accepted might be as easy as fixing it.

Anyway good luck, hope it works out for you.

 

[Thirteeen]

It's a capricious and masturbatory popularity contest, as far as I can tell.

Maybe my luck will change. Maybe I'll get pulled off of a waitlist.

If I don't, I'll probably apply to DO schools next year, even though that's a huge compromise for me (personally....no disrespect).

In person I am not at all a miserable or whiney person.

I am a good interviewer, and I've been offered every job I've ever interviewed for. I'm just done. I'm sick and tired, and I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my gut. All is not right in the world. Hard work doesn't always pay off. Sacrifice is sometimes in vain. Thank you for listening.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

No offense OP, if you sound anything in an interview or PS like this post sounds, they see what I see, which is what MMK posted, you may very well be coming off as superior/cocky. The med school doesn't need someone who is just smart, they need people who don't come off as pretentious. Again, maybe it isn't the case, but I'd have the PS readers give your statement a thorough review, as well as call EVERY school that rejected you and ask why. My state school has a lifetime limit of 3 app cycles, while not all schools do this, continuous reapplication without changes is a red flag unto itself

 

[thepoopologist]

I could write a novel here, but I will keep it relatively short.

The application process has kicked my ass and all but completely broken my spirit. Twice. For the second year in a row I'm facing the prospect of being rejected from every school I applied to despite have competitive stats (3.63 w/ a 2.6 freshman year, balanced 32Q) and more than competitive ECs, some of which are very unique. I'm 30 years old. I have a graduate degree in a health science. I have spent years working in health care in several different capacities. I've shadowed docs in several different specialties, and I've volunteered. I worked nearly full-time while attending school full-time. I've sacrificed money and earning potential, free-time, relationships, vacations, you name it, to pursue my passion and my dream of attending medical school and becoming a physician. And for what? To watch 24 year olds I know with sub 30 MCAT scores, 3.2 gpas and ho-hum ECs get accepted while I experience the shame and humiliation of rejection. To watch others with competitive stats similar to my own, but with less real-world experience, saunter into med. school on their first try with no problems at all.

If I were a sub-par applicant, I could at least understand this. Yes, there are hordes of qualified applicants. But I am no less qualified than the majority of students nationwide who are accepted. It is maddening and, in my opinion, deplorable that I am deemed somehow unworthy by the "gatekeepers" of this profession, while so many starry-eyed, generic, neophyte applicants are welcomed with open arms.

Forgive me if I sound bitter or jaded. I am. I have given everything I can give, and I have received no validation whatsoever. This process is not a meritocracy. It's a capricious and masturbatory popularity contest, as far as I can tell.

Maybe my luck will change. Maybe I'll get pulled off of a waitlist. If I don't, I'll probably apply to DO schools next year, even though that's a huge compromise for me (personally....no disrespect). Please forgive me for what is obviously just a lot of venting. I am struggling to understand why this has happened to me, and schools are essentially blowing me off when I request feedback. In person I am not at all a miserable or whiney person. I am a good interviewer, and I've been offered every job I've ever interviewed for. I'm just done. I'm sick and tired, and I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my gut. All is not right in the world. Hard work doesn't always pay off. Sacrifice is sometimes in vain. Thank you for listening.

You need to draw a line of when to keep trying and when to stop and move on. The selection process is very arbitrary once you get to the interview stage and all you can do is apply far and wide and do your best.

It is not always a bad thing to move on when you decide you are done with it. Preclinical years have been a never ending hell, and there are many other interesting things in this world that do not take half the stress or financial toll.

 

[arcin220]

Here is my .02, perhaps and this is just perhaps I would not only re-evaluate the whole MD vs. DO perspective but also take a look at your motivations to going to med school. I say that because sometimes our intent comes accross in our words and when you interview they may see something that you don't. Additionally, I say that given your stats and the economy the way that it is the applicant pool may be skewed unsually high, whereas some years you would have gotten in and these last two years you just haven't because of that. Applying a third year with the economy being better may meet with success.

Last of all there is no need to be fatalistic, the process has not beaten you otherwise you would not be here venting about it. Yes, you are frustrated as is evidenced by your post, but if you let these rejections motivate you to be better than you currently are then no matter what you will come out on top. Please don't give up, continue and try again if you don't come off the waitlists. Failure is not falling down but it is not getting back up. If this is something that you really want, then don't let the rejections keep you from obtaining your goal. A lot can be said for someone that reapplies multiple times, it means you must really want it and eventually the adcoms will see that and you will be successful. I wrote the following the other day and I think you could use it:

"Never underestimate the will of the human spirit, telling someone they "can't" will almost always be followed up with a "Yes, I can...watch me". Then they do. Don't let anyone tell you something is impossible. Difficult perhaps, but nothing is impossible if you believe. There are miracles that defy all logical reasoning happening everyday, you just have to be willing to see them."

Take joy in the fact that you are doing something that many others aren't willing to do and that is see that their life can be different. You see it and you want it, continue and you will acheive your goal.

 

[QofQuimica]

In order to figure out where things are going wrong, it would help to know how far you're getting in the process. For the OP and anyone else who is trying to figure out where they're going wrong, here is my general flowchart.

First, are you receiving secondary apps from schools that screen? If so, then go to step 2. If not, then you likely have a problem with your AMCAS and/or your choice of schools. OP, I agree that the your numbers are good enough that you should not be rejected because of that. The main other potential app pitfalls are your PS and your activities. Did you have someone read over the PS? Is it grammatically correct, and does it explain why med school? Do you have some significant clinical experience? For the schools, did you apply broadly enough? Did you select schools that take residents of your state, and whose missions match your future career goals? Are you applying early, or did you submit AMCAS right before the school's app deadline?

Second, are you receiving interviews from most schools after completing your apps? If so, then go to Step 3. If not, then there is likely a problem with your secondaries or LORs, or again with the timing and/or school choice. Are you putting effort into answering the secondary questions? Are your essays grammatically correct? How confident are you that your letter writers not only wrote positive letters, but *strongly* positive letters? (Most applicants have such glowing letters that someone with even a lukewarm letter will catch our attention.) Again, did you apply early versus late, and did you choose schools wisely as described above?

Third, are you being rejected or waitlisted by most schools post-interview? If it's the latter, it is possible that you are not as good at interviewing as you believe yourself to be. This is not a personal criticism; a large percentage of applicants are not as good at interviewing as they think they are. Did you have anyone mock interview you? If you don't have access to a career center that offers mock interviews, being mock interviewed by a person who regularly interviews applicants for academic programs or even for entry-level jobs could be very helpful.

If it's the former, then it's possible that the problem is how you're conducting yourself at the interview day. One thing for all of you to keep in mind is that you are automatically at your interview the moment you set foot on campus (or meet up with your student host). At my school, we have rejected otherwise stellar people for doing things like being rude to the admissions secretary; texting during the financial aid talk; making inappropriate remarks to the students during lunch; aggressively challenging students or administration to "defend" aspects of the program; showing up late to the interview without calling; trashing their student host's apartment; and other similar toolish behavior that people should know better than to do at an interview. It's important to be pleasant and respectful to everyone you meet, from the janitor to the dean. It's also important to act like you are happy and excited to be there. If you don't seem like you want to come, why should the school accept you over someone who clearly does?

These are obviously only general guidelines. The ideal would be to get feedback from any schools that have rejected you. When you contact schools, it is best to frame the question in terms of asking what you can do to improve your app, rather than asking why you were rejected. Phrasing it the first way puts the person on the other end in a position to advise you, and you might get some useful feedback. It also comes across as humble and like you want to improve. Phrasing it the second way puts the admissions person in the position of having to defend the adcom's decision, and they may not want to be as forthcoming.

Finally, if you do get any feedback from a school and you intend to reapply there, I can't stress enough how important it is to take the school's advice and do what they tell you to do. At my school, a memo detailing the advice given to the applicant is put into their file, and the adcom does check to see whether the applicant has made an effort to remedy the deficiencies that the Admissions Dean identified.

Hope this is helpful, and best of luck.

 

[n3xa]

Since the OP mentioned hoping to get pulled off the waitlist, he can at least move onto step 3.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Yes, but if he applied to 20 schools and only made the waitlist at 1, he can't... or at least not really...

 

[FutureDr8429033]

Don't compromise. Stick with the MD. There's always next year. Good luck.

I will compromise and apply DO if I have to, as many many many DO students do when they're unable to secure an MD acceptance. It's a means to an end, and ultimately the endpoint of having career that I'm passionate about, that's rewarding and challenging, all that good crap, is all that matters to me. FYI, prestige is really of marginal importance to me, and I have other more practical concerns that have made me trepidatious up till now to go the DO route. If you knew me personally, and knew where I was coming from, you'd know that I'm not a prestige-*****. Thanks for the good wishes.

No offense OP, if you sound anything in an interview or PS like this post sounds, they see what I see, which is what MMK posted, you may very well be coming off as superior/cocky. The med school doesn't need someone who is just smart, they need people who don't come off as pretentious. Again, maybe it isn't the case, but I'd have the PS readers give your statement a thorough review, as well as call EVERY school that rejected you and ask why. My state school has a lifetime limit of 3 app cycles, while not all schools do this, continuous reapplication without changes is a red flag unto itself

I'm sorry you don't see the irony in your asserting, based on the very little information I provided in a 4 minute anxiety-laden screed on an anonymous forum, that I come across as pretentious in person. I'm fairly certain that I don't (but who really knows how others perceive us). I don't think it's arrogant to point out that I'm qualified, and that it's unbearably frustrating that some other people who are perhaps less qualified than myself are able to get accepted. I will take your advice and try to contact more schools. So far it's been a pointless endeavor but I'll be a bit more proactive about it.

Here is my .02, perhaps and this is just perhaps I would not only re-evaluate the whole MD vs. DO perspective but also take a look at your motivations to going to med school. I say that because sometimes our intent comes accross in our words and when you interview they may see something that you don't. Additionally, I say that given your stats and the economy the way that it is the applicant pool may be skewed unsually high, whereas some years you would have gotten in and these last two years you just haven't because of that. Applying a third year with the economy being better may meet with success.

Last of all there is no need to be fatalistic, the process has not beaten you otherwise you would not be here venting about it. Yes, you are frustrated as is evidenced by your post, but if you let these rejections motivate you to be better than you currently are then no matter what you will come out on top. Please don't give up, continue and try again if you don't come off the waitlists. Failure is not falling down but it is not getting back up. If this is something that you really want, then don't let the rejections keep you from obtaining your goal. A lot can be said for someone that reapplies multiple times, it means you must really want it and eventually the adcoms will see that and you will be successful. I wrote the following the other day and I think you could use it:

"Never underestimate the will of the human spirit, telling someone they "can't" will almost always be followed up with a "Yes, I can...watch me". Then they do. Don't let anyone tell you something is impossible. Difficult perhaps, but nothing is impossible if you believe. There are miracles that defy all logical reasoning happening everyday, you just have to be willing to see them."

Take joy in the fact that you are doing something that many others aren't willing to do and that is see that their life can be different. You see it and you want it, continue and you will acheive your goal.

Thanks for the kind words. My general attitude has actually been quite optimistic. I'm not really considering giving up just yet, but I have moments where I'm so frustrated it's like "what's the point," you know? I'm well qualified, and a capable person. Yes, I was being fatalistic. The world is not ending, but when you spend years working towards a goal, and your self identity gets wrapped up in that endeavor, it's unbelievably jarring to have the rug pulled out from under you. Particularly at an age where most of my friends are now married and have their careers on lock-down, I'm not anxious to change gears when I've put in so much time and energy into this. I literally cannot see myself doing anything else.

In order to figure out where things are going wrong, it would help to know how far you're getting in the process. For the OP and anyone else who is trying to figure out where they're going wrong, here is my general flowchart.

First, are you receiving secondary apps from schools that screen? If so, then go to step 2. If not, then you likely have a problem with your AMCAS and/or your choice of schools. OP, I agree that the your numbers are good enough that you should not be rejected because of that. The main other potential app pitfalls are your PS and your activities. Did you have someone read over the PS? Is it grammatically correct, and does it explain why med school? Do you have some significant clinical experience? For the schools, did you apply broadly enough? Did you select schools that take residents of your state, and whose missions match your future career goals? Are you applying early, or did you submit AMCAS right before the school's app deadline?

Second, are you receiving interviews from most schools after completing your apps? If so, then go to Step 3. If not, then there is likely a problem with your secondaries or LORs, or again with the timing and/or school choice. Are you putting effort into answering the secondary questions? Are your essays grammatically correct? How confident are you that your letter writers not only wrote positive letters, but *strongly* positive letters? (Most applicants have such glowing letters that someone with even a lukewarm letter will catch our attention.) Again, did you apply early versus late, and did you choose schools wisely as described above?

Third, are you being rejected or waitlisted by most schools post-interview? If it's the latter, it is possible that you are not as good at interviewing as you believe yourself to be. This is not a personal criticism; a large percentage of applicants are not as good at interviewing as they think they are. Did you have anyone mock interview you? If you don't have access to a career center that offers mock interviews, being mock interviewed by a person who regularly interviews applicants for academic programs or even for entry-level jobs could be very helpful.

If it's the former, then it's possible that the problem is how you're conducting yourself at the interview day. One thing for all of you to keep in mind is that you are automatically at your interview the moment you set foot on campus (or meet up with your student host). At my school, we have rejected otherwise stellar people for doing things like being rude to the admissions secretary; texting during the financial aid talk; making inappropriate remarks to the students during lunch; aggressively challenging students or administration to "defend" aspects of the program; showing up late to the interview without calling; trashing their student host's apartment; and other similar toolish behavior that people should know better than to do at an interview. It's important to be pleasant and respectful to everyone you meet, from the janitor to the dean. It's also important to act like you are happy and excited to be there. If you don't seem like you want to come, why should the school accept you over someone who clearly does?

These are obviously only general guidelines. The ideal would be to get feedback from any schools that have rejected you. When you contact schools, it is best to frame the question in terms of asking what you can do to improve your app, rather than asking why you were rejected. Phrasing it the first way puts the person on the other end in a position to advise you, and you might get some useful feedback. It also comes across as humble and like you want to improve. Phrasing it the second way puts the admissions person in the position of having to defend the adcom's decision, and they may not want to be as forthcoming.

Finally, if you do get any feedback from a school and you intend to reapply there, I can't stress enough how important it is to take the school's advice and do what they tell you to do. At my school, a memo detailing the advice given to the applicant is put into their file, and the adcom does check to see whether the applicant has made an effort to remedy the deficiencies that the Admissions Dean identified.

Hope this is helpful, and best of luck.

Thank you for the advice and well wishes. I did apply broadly, and I'm on more than one waitlist. I have had 2 mock interviews, one with my former PI who was the head of his department at an academic medical center, the other with a subsequent PI who interviewed prospective residents. They were both really positive ("Go in there and show them who you are," and "You'll be fine."). Of course I would never be rude or disrespectful or knowingly project anything but optimism and professionalism at an interview, but I understand why you'd mention that without knowing me. I will certainly take your advice and try to get feedback from schools, though thus far my emails have gone unanswered.

Thank you, particularly to those of you who are able to recognize that I'm a future colleague who is going through an extremely difficult period of my life. I stated very plainly that I was venting in my original post, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I strongly believe that this process sometimes rewards people who have questionable qualifications, while other eminently qualified peeps are left behind. I still have faith that I'll get what I've earned when waitlists start moving. If not, I think I'm very competitive for DO schools. Thanks again.

 

[QofQuimica]

Thank you for the advice and well wishes. I did apply broadly, and I'm on more than one waitlist. I have had 2 mock interviews, one with my former PI who was the head of his department at an academic medical center, the other with a subsequent PI who interviewed prospective residents. They were both really positive ("Go in there and show them who you are," and "You'll be fine."). Of course I would never be rude or disrespectful or knowingly project anything but optimism and professionalism at an interview, but I understand why you'd mention that without knowing me. I will certainly take your advice and try to get feedback from schools, though thus far my emails have gone unanswered.

I wasn't meaning to suggest that you specifically were acting unprofessionally. I'm just throwing that out there in general, because every time I start to think I can't possibly be surprised by an applicant's behavior at the interview day, someone manages to surprise me.

Concerning trying to get feedback, you might try calling the office to see if talking to a live person might help. Again, I'd approach it from the direction of asking for advice on improving your app, just because it's less confrontational and less likely to make the admissions staff defensive. to you.

 

[hopeinternist]

I will compromise and apply DO if I have to, as many many many DO students do when they're unable to secure an MD acceptance. It's a means to an end, and ultimately the endpoint of having career that I'm passionate about, that's rewarding and challenging, all that good crap, is all that matters to me. FYI, prestige is really of marginal importance to me, and I have other more practical concerns that have made me trepidatious up till now to go the DO route. If you knew me personally, and knew where I was coming from, you'd know that I'm not a prestige-*****. Thanks for the good wishes.


If not, I think I'm very competitive for DO schools. Thanks again.

Please do elaborate on those practical concerns.. and just an FYI for you... its VERY likely that some of your future colleagues will be D.O.s and having such a view of the osteopathic profession (as being secondhand to an M.D. degree) will not bode well for you and your professional relationships. Have you spoken/shadowed an osteopathic physician to discuss some of your "concerns" ? Perhaps attended an open house at a school you might be interested in?

While D.O. schools are perhaps not as number based as their allopathic counterparts, they look for various other factors ranging from life experience, clinical experiences, motivation to (note) proudly represent as well as have an understanding of the osteopathic profession. From what I ve gained from reading your post you seem to think you're settling by going D.O. If so I urge you, to do all current and prospective osteopathic physicians a favor, and not head down that path and to continue pursuing a U.S. MD or even a M.D. program abroad. I apologize if this comes off too strong, but I have had friends who have made that mistake and even though some of them have grown to like being a D.O. others still despise it and regret not pursuing an M.D. program

I also commend you on having the motivation to apply twice, and wish you the best of luck in your path to becoming a physician.

 

[NontradICUdoc]

As a DO student who will be graduating very shortly, and a non traditional student, I do not think it would be wise to apply to the Osteopathic profession. Your desire to be an MD and use the DO route as a backup will come through in your interview process and you may not get any acceptances, especially when asked why DO.

Let those who want to be a DO apply for the few spots there are. If you have your heart set on being an MD and you do not get a spot, then maybe you should consider going off shore like the Caribbean.

 

[tkim]

I will compromise and apply DO if I have to, as many many many DO students do when they're unable to secure an MD acceptance.

No, really - stick with getting an MD acceptance. As long as it takes, or you quit.

 

[spicedmanna]

My general attitude has actually been quite optimistic. I'm not really considering giving up just yet, but I have moments where I'm so frustrated it's like "what's the point," you know? I'm well qualified, and a capable person. Yes, I was being fatalistic. The world is not ending, but when you spend years working towards a goal, and your self identity gets wrapped up in that endeavor, it's unbelievably jarring to have the rug pulled out from under you. Particularly at an age where most of my friends are now married and have their careers on lock-down, I'm not anxious to change gears when I've put in so much time and energy into this. I literally cannot see myself doing anything else.

You sound like a person who hasn't had the perspective of having suffered much defeat in your life. It wouldn't be the first time that a "qualified, and a capable person" didn't get the vote. It certainly has happened to me before. Being qualified and capable doesn't always equal success or that you will get what you want. There's more to it. That's the story of life. Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw, being in the wrong place and time, and often how well you play the game (yes, applying is a game, albeit a high-stakes one). There are lots more intangible elements at play than any of us can even list. If you aren't getting in with multiple attempts, it's time to sit down and evaluate, honestly and ruthlessly (with yourself), how you aren't setting it up right. I'm sure that's obvious to you, but it's worth repeating. You don't want to keep plugging away, hitting the nail with the same hammer, one that isn't working. That's just going to give you the same reliable result and darken your mood. You need more than anonymous advice and evaluation from people who have no way of knowing what it is you are doing. We only know what you tell us. You have to get some objective feedback from people who are in the position to give it to you, who know your whole story. More than that, you have to be truly open to that feedback and not let your ego or perceptions of yourself get in the way. Whatever you say here, the results are telling.

I can't tell you how many times the rug has been pulled underneath my feet. How one handles defeat is as telling as how one savors success. If this is your attitude, then, maybe this tells you something about the way you approached the process in the first place.

My armchair psychologist persona is telling me that maybe you are feeling entitled right now and maybe were before as well. Being qualified doesn't mean you should get what you want. Being qualified doesn't mean you deserve it, or that the process owes it to you to succeed. Qualified just buys you a certain chance at the game. I feel you, though. It's damn frustrating when your portfolio says you ought to get it, but somehow it's just not working out. Get past that, though. This is an attitude that won't serve you. Fate is just another way of saying that you don't own your life.

Age. What of it? You are talking to non-trads here, many of which started the process even later than you. It doesn't impress us at all. You don't have to stop your life for this, and you shouldn't even when you get in. You might have to make a few zigs and zags, but it's not time frozen. I guarantee what you are feeling now, with respect to your age and what you should be doing at your age right now, including the "grass is greener" thing with everyone else having families, etc., you will be feeling when you are in medical school, too. You don't have to let that stand in your way. It sounds like you are going to push forward, though, I really respect that. Life is but a dream. You should absolutely live it the way you want.

I will compromise and apply DO if I have to, as many many many DO students do when they're unable to secure an MD acceptance. It's a means to an end, and ultimately the endpoint of having career that I'm passionate about, that's rewarding and challenging, all that good crap, is all that matters to me. FYI, prestige is really of marginal importance to me, and I have other more practical concerns that have made me trepidatious up till now to go the DO route. If you knew me personally, and knew where I was coming from, you'd know that I'm not a prestige-*****. Thanks for the good wishes.

I'm not sure how you are using the word, "compromise." Well, it's good that you are not a "prestige-*****," but I think what some people are troubled by is that you see this position as a compromise. As long as you do that, it can lead to unhappiness in the end. I've seen it happen and sometimes it's worse than not getting in at all. There is a disparity in your mind right now that says, having a DO is not the same as having an MD, for one reason or another. Work those bugs out. If you can come to place where it's no longer a compromise, then I say go for it, wholeheartedly. Yes, that's the key: wholeheartedly. People can sense when you are not doing that. You can sense when you are not doing that. It can make things harder for you, that's all. I don't care how you come to that place, or from where you came from, but that you do. I'm completely secure in my choice and don't care what you or anybody else thinks of it. That's the place I'm coming from.

 

[jl lin]

Sure. Life kicks you in the butt enough, you get tough, hopefully without getting hardened by life.

It 's simple. If this is what you want to do, and you have good motivations as to why, don't give up. And who cares if you practice as a DO or MD. At the end of the day, people want to know that you are highly competent, and that you really care about them. I witnessed this over and over as a RN over the years. Sick people are scared and vulnerable, and they just want really good care from someone who really gives a darn. A lot of things about medicine are NOT simple, but that reality is and it doesn't change.

Do what you have to do. D.O. and/or improve app, etc. Consider foreign medical programs. . .people do it. I happen to know some highly successful docs that practice in this country that have gone that route, got into US residency programs, and are doing wonderfully in their practices.

People love to pour salt in people's games, and they swear that the worst case scenario will occur. Don't let them set that up for you. If you want it, do what you have got to do, and forget all the bull that will just bring you down. At the end of the day, YOU will be the one that will decide what kind of way you will practice. In deciding well, you will have boatloads of patients. It won't always be easy, but you will be working your tail off and helping people as a physician. Is that what you want. . . really? If so, follow the Nike slogan and "Just do it."

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I'm sorry you don't see the irony in your asserting, based on the very little information I provided in a 4 minute anxiety-laden screed on an anonymous forum, that I come across as pretentious in person. I'm fairly certain that I don't (but who really knows how others perceive us). I don't think it's arrogant to point out that I'm qualified, and that it's unbearably frustrating that some other people who are perhaps less qualified than myself are able to get accepted. I will take your advice and try to contact more schools. So far it's been a pointless endeavor but I'll be a bit more proactive about it.

You think my comment is laughable. Interesting, considering I'm not the only person on here to have noticed the pretentious "I deserve to get in, and the Adcoms are mean" attitude. Q gave you a checklist, and you basically said, there are no problems, not with your app, not with your PS, not with your interview. Yep, YOU'RE perfect, and the Adcoms are just mean and won't let you in, and are passing you by for "less qualified people"... You don't see a problem with your attitude?? I do! Venting or not, you ARE doing something wrong. Either you are applying to schools out of your league, there is something on your app that is a red flag, your letters are bad, or your attitude is bad. Not to mention the attitude of "settling for a DO", somehow you think that if the MD schools are passing you by for "less qualified people" that a DO school won't? They base their decisions WAY more on quality of a person than stats. You say that you'll "be more proactive about it" did you think the adcoms were going to call you and tell you "Mr. So-n-so, you were such a wonderful person, we had to call you personally and tell you why you didn't get in"? NO, THEY WON'T there is no proactive versus not, you won't find out until you contact them. A coworker of mine was waitlisted last year at our state school. I told him to contact the school and ask why. They told him that when they interviewed him they noticed problems in his personal statement and wanted to see if he 'impressed them more in person' he didn't. The interview was his second chance, and he blew it. They suspected he was in it for the $$, and they waitlisted him. His stats are similar to yours. There were specific questions he flubbed in the interview, we identified them, and I gave him tips on not being trapped in questions again. You mock interviewed with people who know you. This is a problem; Q didn't say, go find your boss and have them do a mock interview. She said go to a career center and have them do a mock interview. You need people who don't know you from Adam, not people who would generally want you to succeed, or aren't willing to tell you it didn't go well. Again, you may not appreciate being told this but EVERY post you have posted in this thread comes off as arrogant. I DESERVE TO GET IN just oooozes out of every statement. Quit bitching and start calling around to make some real progress, if you want it that bad, you should be willing to do anything and everything it takes to get in. I called my state school, gave them my story and said, what do I do to get in? They told me, I've done it, I'm applying in June, we'll see how it goes. I however, will be applying broadly to DO and MD programs because I want to be a physician, and I don't care how I get there, one is superior in my opinion, and that is DO... If you can do all that AND MORE, why not??? I see one as superior because THEY have additional training, not less... More training=more knowledge=better... You can laugh at me if in two years I'm on here whining...

 

[Dzerzhinsky]

Please forgive me for what is obviously just a lot of venting. I am struggling to understand why this has happened to me, and schools are essentially blowing me off when I request feedback. In person I am not at all a miserable or whiney person. I am a good interviewer, and I've been offered every job I've ever interviewed for. I'm just done. I'm sick and tired, and I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my gut. All is not right in the world. Hard work doesn't always pay off. Sacrifice is sometimes in vain. Thank you for listening.

First of all, I feel for you. It hurts. It sucks. It stinks. It's a big, steamy pile o' crap.

Second of all, it's probably your interview.

Why do I say that? Because I went through this, when I was applying to undergrad. I was a big fish in a small pond. I had the numbers, the practical experience, the everything. I was up for a four-year full-ride scholarship. I'd done things these other little hick-kids couldn't even contemplate. Of course I'd get it! And I deserved it!

I didn't get it.

It wasn't the numbers. It wasn't the experiences. It was the interview.

I thought I was better than these people, even as I asked for their money. I thought it was mine to lose. I thought I was good at interviewing, too, thought I'd have no trouble. In retrospect, it wasn't mine to lose any more than it was anyone else's, but I lost it anyway, because I was--to be honest--quite the little piece of work back then, despite being polite to a fault. All of the intellectual skills and none of the social ones.

Here's the good part. I was right. I was better than those kids. I went on to graduate valedictorian from that little pond, and the outcome I had in life afterwards proved it. But they were right, too. At that time, I was not the best candidate. Not because of the technical skills or the numbers: Because my interviewing and people skills blew chunks in comparison to those who got it. On an absolute level, maybe I wasn't all that bad. Maybe I was pretty good, even, though I'm much better now. But that entitlement, that better-than-you, that how-dare-you-not-recognize-my-awesome, shone through and sank the deal for me.

I'm guessing it's the same for you.

I might be wrong. I don't know. But you're a very good writer who makes it to the interview stage, falls flat on your face, and then gets very angry about it. To be honest, you sound like a carbon copy of me back then.

It doesn't matter if I'm wrong, anyway. Here's what does matter. You may, in fact, be better than those other candidates in every way using your algorithm. I guarantee, though, that you are not better than them as a total package using the adcoms' algorithm. How do I know? Because otherwise you would've gotten in!

Does their algorithm suck? Let's say it does. Personally, I think that scholarship committee's algorithm kind of sucked. It doesn't matter. You have two choices: You can decide that it sucks so badly you don't want the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (medical school), or you can play the game and make yourself better than everyone else using the algorithm that matters: theirs.

Will that be hard? Yes. Is it doable, if you want it badly enough? Yes.

So be frustrated, angry, hurt. Curl up and lick your wounds. And then ask yourself whether that's productive, and just how badly you want this. It's okay to say that it's not worth it to you. Seriously okay. And if you'll be bitter, you're better off so doing.

But if you want it badly enough, stop saying "They want stupid things!" and start saying "How can I become the person they want?"

 

[0919mmk]

You think my comment is laughable. Interesting, considering I'm not the only person on here to have noticed the pretentious "I deserve to get in, and the Adcoms are mean" attitude. Q gave you a checklist, and you basically said, there are no problems, not with your app, not with your PS, not with your interview. Yep, YOU'RE perfect, and the Adcoms are just mean and won't let you in, and are passing you by for "less qualified people"... You don't see a problem with your attitude?? I do! Venting or not, you ARE doing something wrong. Either you are applying to schools out of your league, there is something on your app that is a red flag, your letters are bad, or your attitude is bad. Not to mention the attitude of "settling for a DO", somehow you think that if the MD schools are passing you by for "less qualified people" that a DO school won't? They base their decisions WAY more on quality of a person than stats. You say that you'll "be more proactive about it" did you think the adcoms were going to call you and tell you "Mr. So-n-so, you were such a wonderful person, we had to call you personally and tell you why you didn't get in"? NO, THEY WON'T there is no proactive versus not, you won't find out until you contact them. A coworker of mine was waitlisted last year at our state school. I told him to contact the school and ask why. They told him that when they interviewed him they noticed problems in his personal statement and wanted to see if he 'impressed them more in person' he didn't. The interview was his second chance, and he blew it. They suspected he was in it for the $$, and they waitlisted him. His stats are similar to yours. There were specific questions he flubbed in the interview, we identified them, and I gave him tips on not being trapped in questions again. You mock interviewed with people who know you. This is a problem; Q didn't say, go find your boss and have them do a mock interview. She said go to a career center and have them do a mock interview. You need people who don't know you from Adam, not people who would generally want you to succeed, or aren't willing to tell you it didn't go well. Again, you may not appreciate being told this but EVERY post you have posted in this thread comes off as arrogant. I DESERVE TO GET IN just oooozes out of every statement. Quit bitching and start calling around to make some real progress, if you want it that bad, you should be willing to do anything and everything it takes to get in. I called my state school, gave them my story and said, what do I do to get in? They told me, I've done it, I'm applying in June, we'll see how it goes. I however, will be applying broadly to DO and MD programs because I want to be a physician, and I don't care how I get there, one is superior in my opinion, and that is DO... If you can do all that AND MORE, why not??? I see one as superior because THEY have additional training, not less... More training=more knowledge=better... You can laugh at me if in two years I'm on here whining...

1) SBB good luck this year - your attitude rocks. I hope it works for you.

2)FutureDR - read this ^ post and then read it again. Everybody on his thread is trying to be constructive honestly, but from your first post, your ego has just been in the way. People with your stats get rejected from DO all. the. time. because of their attitudes, and because it's a very competitive field. Take a step back man. Do people get in with 3.0 GPA and 27 MCAT? Yes, all the time. Because it's not just about numbers. I like to think that adcoms are pretty adept at cutting through the BS (they have a lot of practice), and if they smell just a hint of entitlement, you're done.

Again, please don't consider this a personal attack. I am trying to be honest with you and tell you how you are coming off to everybody else on this thread. Chances are not bad that if you are coming off like this today, you are also coming off like this on any given day/interview day. A little humility could go a long way. And I say again, honestly, good luck in whatever path you choose.

 

[Northwesterly]

Everybody on his thread is trying to be constructive honestly, but from your first post, your ego has just been in the way. Chances are not bad that if you are coming off like this today, you are also coming off like this on any given day/interview day.

I really have to disagree with both of these statements. There's an awfully high self-righteousness : helpfulness ratio on display in this thread. (With some--as Alan Greenspan would put it--notable exceptions.) And FutureDr seems quite upfront about the fact that he/she is venting. What is a (so-far) failed applicant supposed to say? Accurate self-assessment requires clarity, but it doesn't require knee-jerk self-abasement. Decent numbers are decent numbers. (And, quite obviously, don't tell the whole story.) This process is frustrating, and more than a little random, but there's an weird sort of victimization thing that I see a lot on SDN whereby Adcoms are assumed to be wise, all-knowing, and benevolent, and if someone doesn't get in there must be a capital-R Reason. Admissions committee folks are just people--well intentioned people presented with an overwhelming abundance of data who mostly (but not always) do a good job of sorting it. No one should feel entitled to a spot in med school, but neither should we assume that because an outwardly strong candidate didn't get in, they have an attitude problem. Maybe they do, but maybe they have a mediocre letter. Maybe they tend to answer "why medicine?" questions poorly. Maybe they just got unlucky.
OP, good luck. April is a good time to vent. Come May it's time to get to work.

 

[drgioiadds]

As a DO student who will be graduating very shortly, and a non traditional student, I do not think it would be wise to apply to the Osteopathic profession. Your desire to be an MD and use the DO route as a backup will come through in your interview process and you may not get any acceptances, especially when asked why DO.

Let those who want to be a DO apply for the few spots there are. If you have your heart set on being an MD and you do not get a spot, then maybe you should consider going off shore like the Caribbean.

Nicely said!! I am on few wait lists for DO schools after practicing dentistry for 9 years! (currently practicing also!) I applied late due to a late MCAT -- which ended up being mediocre at best. Hopefully it will workout, but if not my app will be in June 1!

 

[FutureDr8429033]

I wasn't meaning to suggest that you specifically were acting unprofessionally. I'm just throwing that out there in general, because every time I start to think I can't possibly be surprised by an applicant's behavior at the interview day, someone manages to surprise me.

Concerning trying to get feedback, you might try calling the office to see if talking to a live person might help. Again, I'd approach it from the direction of asking for advice on improving your app, just because it's less confrontational and less likely to make the admissions staff defensive.

to you.

Thanks. No, I didn't take it that way. I know you were just speaking in generalities. I will definitely call admissions offices and ask for feedback. Thanks again.

Please do elaborate on those practical concerns.. and just an FYI for you... its VERY likely that some of your future colleagues will be D.O.s and having such a view of the osteopathic profession (as being secondhand to an M.D. degree) will not bode well for you and your professional relationships. Have you spoken/shadowed an osteopathic physician to discuss some of your "concerns" ? Perhaps attended an open house at a school you might be interested in?

While D.O. schools are perhaps not as number based as their allopathic counterparts, they look for various other factors ranging from life experience, clinical experiences, motivation to (note) proudly represent as well as have an understanding of the osteopathic profession. From what I ve gained from reading your post you seem to think you're settling by going D.O. If so I urge you, to do all current and prospective osteopathic physicians a favor, and not head down that path and to continue pursuing a U.S. MD or even a M.D. program abroad. I apologize if this comes off too strong, but I have had friends who have made that mistake and even though some of them have grown to like being a D.O. others still despise it and regret not pursuing an M.D. program

I also commend you on having the motivation to apply twice, and wish you the best of luck in your path to becoming a physician.

I don't want to digress into an MD vs. DO debate, which I really have no interest in. Regarding DO being "secondhand" to MD, those are your words not mine. In a nutshell, I'm just not interested in OMM, and I'd rather spend those classroom hours on other things. That's all. I'm not hating on DOs. I've met a few, and worked with a few. Same diff to me.

No, really - stick with getting an MD acceptance. As long as it takes, or you quit.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll do what I have to do to get where I want to be.

You sound like a person who hasn't had the perspective of having suffered much defeat in your life. It wouldn't be the first time that a "qualified, and a capable person" didn't get the vote. It certainly has happened to me before. Being qualified and capable doesn't always equal success or that you will get what you want. There's more to it. That's the story of life. Sometimes it's just the luck of the draw, being in the wrong place and time, and often how well you play the game (yes, applying is a game, albeit a high-stakes one). There are lots more intangible elements at play than any of us can even list. If you aren't getting in with multiple attempts, it's time to sit down and evaluate, honestly and ruthlessly (with yourself), how you aren't setting it up right. I'm sure that's obvious to you, but it's worth repeating. You don't want to keep plugging away, hitting the nail with the same hammer, one that isn't working. That's just going to give you the same reliable result and darken your mood. You need more than anonymous advice and evaluation from people who have no way of knowing what it is you are doing. We only know what you tell us. You have to get some objective feedback from people who are in the position to give it to you, who know your whole story. More than that, you have to be truly open to that feedback and not let your ego or perceptions of yourself get in the way. Whatever you say here, the results are telling.

I can't tell you how many times the rug has been pulled underneath my feet. How one handles defeat is as telling as how one savors success. If this is your attitude, then, maybe this tells you something about the way you approached the process in the first place.

My armchair psychologist persona is telling me that maybe you are feeling entitled right now and maybe were before as well. Being qualified doesn't mean you should get what you want. Being qualified doesn't mean you deserve it, or that the process owes it to you to succeed. Qualified just buys you a certain chance at the game. I feel you, though. It's damn frustrating when your portfolio says you ought to get it, but somehow it's just not working out. Get past that, though. This is an attitude that won't serve you. Fate is just another way of saying that you don't own your life.

Age. What of it? You are talking to non-trads here, many of which started the process even later than you. It doesn't impress us at all. You don't have to stop your life for this, and you shouldn't even when you get in. You might have to make a few zigs and zags, but it's not time frozen. I guarantee what you are feeling now, with respect to your age and what you should be doing at your age right now, including the "grass is greener" thing with everyone else having families, etc., you will be feeling when you are in medical school, too. You don't have to let that stand in your way. It sounds like you are going to push forward, though, I really respect that. Life is but a dream. You should absolutely live it the way you want.

I'm not sure how you are using the word, "compromise." Well, it's good that you are not a "prestige-*****," but I think what some people are troubled by is that you see this position as a compromise. As long as you do that, it can lead to unhappiness in the end. I've seen it happen and sometimes it's worse than not getting in at all. There is a disparity in your mind right now that says, having a DO is not the same as having an MD, for one reason or another. Work those bugs out. If you can come to place where it's no longer a compromise, then I say go for it, wholeheartedly. Yes, that's the key: wholeheartedly. People can sense when you are not doing that. You can sense when you are not doing that. It can make things harder for you, that's all. I don't care how you come to that place, or from where you came from, but that you do. I'm completely secure in my choice and don't care what you or anybody else thinks of it. That's the place I'm coming from.

I basically agree with what you're saying. I don't feel "entitled," per se. I think that I'm just as qualified as many thousands of other people who are accepted every year, and as such, my frustration should be understandable. I've worked incredibly hard, done everything right, not perfect (OBVIOUSLY), but right, so defeat is a real kick in the teeth. Thanks for the encouragement.

Sure. Life kicks you in the butt enough, you get tough, hopefully without getting hardened by life.

It 's simple. If this is what you want to do, and you have good motivations as to why, don't give up. And who cares if you practice as a DO or MD. At the end of the day, people want to know that you are highly competent, and that you really care about them. I witnessed this over and over as a RN over the years. Sick people are scared and vulnerable, and they just want really good care from someone who really gives a darn. A lot of things about medicine are NOT simple, but that reality is and it doesn't change.

Do what you have to do. D.O. and/or improve app, etc. Consider foreign medical programs. . .people do it. I happen to know some highly successful docs that practice in this country that have gone that route, got into US residency programs, and are doing wonderfully in their practices.

People love to pour salt in people's games, and they swear that the worst case scenario will occur. Don't let them set that up for you. If you want it, do what you have got to do, and forget all the bull that will just bring you down. At the end of the day, YOU will be the one that will decide what kind of way you will practice. In deciding well, you will have boatloads of patients. It won't always be easy, but you will be working your tail off and helping people as a physician. Is that what you want. . . really? If so, follow the Nike slogan and "Just do it."

Thanks for the encouragement. I agree with everything you're saying.

You think my comment is laughable. Interesting, considering I'm not the only person on here to have noticed the pretentious "I deserve to get in, and the Adcoms are mean" attitude. Q gave you a checklist, and you basically said, there are no problems, not with your app, not with your PS, not with your interview. Yep, YOU'RE perfect, and the Adcoms are just mean and won't let you in, and are passing you by for "less qualified people"... You don't see a problem with your attitude?? I do! Venting or not, you ARE doing something wrong. Either you are applying to schools out of your league, there is something on your app that is a red flag, your letters are bad, or your attitude is bad. Not to mention the attitude of "settling for a DO", somehow you think that if the MD schools are passing you by for "less qualified people" that a DO school won't? They base their decisions WAY more on quality of a person than stats. You say that you'll "be more proactive about it" did you think the adcoms were going to call you and tell you "Mr. So-n-so, you were such a wonderful person, we had to call you personally and tell you why you didn't get in"? NO, THEY WON'T there is no proactive versus not, you won't find out until you contact them. A coworker of mine was waitlisted last year at our state school. I told him to contact the school and ask why. They told him that when they interviewed him they noticed problems in his personal statement and wanted to see if he 'impressed them more in person' he didn't. The interview was his second chance, and he blew it. They suspected he was in it for the $$, and they waitlisted him. His stats are similar to yours. There were specific questions he flubbed in the interview, we identified them, and I gave him tips on not being trapped in questions again. You mock interviewed with people who know you. This is a problem; Q didn't say, go find your boss and have them do a mock interview. She said go to a career center and have them do a mock interview. You need people who don't know you from Adam, not people who would generally want you to succeed, or aren't willing to tell you it didn't go well. Again, you may not appreciate being told this but EVERY post you have posted in this thread comes off as arrogant. I DESERVE TO GET IN just oooozes out of every statement. Quit bitching and start calling around to make some real progress, if you want it that bad, you should be willing to do anything and everything it takes to get in. I called my state school, gave them my story and said, what do I do to get in? They told me, I've done it, I'm applying in June, we'll see how it goes. I however, will be applying broadly to DO and MD programs because I want to be a physician, and I don't care how I get there, one is superior in my opinion, and that is DO... If you can do all that AND MORE, why not??? I see one as superior because THEY have additional training, not less... More training=more knowledge=better... You can laugh at me if in two years I'm on here whining...

Look, you clearly have this process all figured out, and I'm very happy for you. I'm not sure why you feel the need to be so combative. Your insistence that I'm arrogant and lack social skills because I posted an emotionally-laden rant in a moment of weakness is asinine. Clearly I don't think I'm perfect or I'd be sitting on numerous acceptances and I wouldn't be posting here. You seem to see everything in black and white. Either people deserve to get in or they don't. Either they're good interviewers or they're horrible. Re: MD being superior to DO, again, your words not mine. More proactive = me calling instead of emailing, and calling places I've already emailed that haven't responded. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. Good luck to you when you apply. I hope you don't have to go through what I'm going through, and if you do I certainly won't be laughing at the misfortune of a stranger.

First of all, I feel for you. It hurts. It sucks. It stinks. It's a big, steamy pile o' crap.

Second of all, it's probably your interview.

Why do I say that? Because I went through this, when I was applying to undergrad. I was a big fish in a small pond. I had the numbers, the practical experience, the everything. I was up for a four-year full-ride scholarship. I'd done things these other little hick-kids couldn't even contemplate. Of course I'd get it! And I deserved it!

I didn't get it.

It wasn't the numbers. It wasn't the experiences. It was the interview.

I thought I was better than these people, even as I asked for their money. I thought it was mine to lose. I thought I was good at interviewing, too, thought I'd have no trouble. In retrospect, it wasn't mine to lose any more than it was anyone else's, but I lost it anyway, because I was--to be honest--quite the little piece of work back then, despite being polite to a fault. All of the intellectual skills and none of the social ones.

Here's the good part. I was right. I was better than those kids. I went on to graduate valedictorian from that little pond, and the outcome I had in life afterwards proved it. But they were right, too. At that time, I was not the best candidate. Not because of the technical skills or the numbers: Because my interviewing and people skills blew chunks in comparison to those who got it. On an absolute level, maybe I wasn't all that bad. Maybe I was pretty good, even, though I'm much better now. But that entitlement, that better-than-you, that how-dare-you-not-recognize-my-awesome, shone through and sank the deal for me.

I'm guessing it's the same for you.

I might be wrong. I don't know. But you're a very good writer who makes it to the interview stage, falls flat on your face, and then gets very angry about it. To be honest, you sound like a carbon copy of me back then.

It doesn't matter if I'm wrong, anyway. Here's what does matter. You may, in fact, be better than those other candidates in every way using your algorithm. I guarantee, though, that you are not better than them as a total package using the adcoms' algorithm. How do I know? Because otherwise you would've gotten in!

Does their algorithm suck? Let's say it does. Personally, I think that scholarship committee's algorithm kind of sucked. It doesn't matter. You have two choices: You can decide that it sucks so badly you don't want the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (medical school), or you can play the game and make yourself better than everyone else using the algorithm that matters: theirs.

Will that be hard? Yes. Is it doable, if you want it badly enough? Yes.

So be frustrated, angry, hurt. Curl up and lick your wounds. And then ask yourself whether that's productive, and just how badly you want this. It's okay to say that it's not worth it to you. Seriously okay. And if you'll be bitter, you're better off so doing.

But if you want it badly enough, stop saying "They want stupid things!" and start saying "How can I become the person they want?"

I think that if my interviews were home-runs, I'd be sitting on some acceptances. Obviously they weren't 10/10 interviews, but I'm fairly certain they're not abysmal either. I've had interviewers say very encouraging things to me during and following my interviews ("good answer, "great job," "keep us in mind. i hope you decide to come here"), but of course that could just be a polite/friendly thing for them to say. I don't think I'm better than anybody in any existential sense. I personally know a couple of people with considerably worse stats (like, way worse), less work experience, way way way less clinical exposure, and they got in and it's mad frustrating. I agree with much of what you're saying. Thanks for the encouragement.


Overall, let me just say that I never stated explicitly or implicitly that I'm "perfect." If I were I'd be accepted to Harvard/Hopkins/U.Penn right now, and I wouldn't be here banging my head against a wall. All I'm saying is that I've worked incredibly hard for a number of years, I've made tremendous sacrifices, I'm well qualified and I believe I will be a successful med. student and a good doctor. I DO believe that I deserve to get in, and I'm not ashamed of that, and I don't think it makes me arrogant to be very proud of my considerable experience and accomplishments. I understand the compulsion for some people to think that this process is somehow infallibly just, and everybody always gets what they deserve. It just isn't like that. Not all the time, and not for everyone.

Moving forward, I'm going to do everything in my power to strengthen my application and adjust my tactics to achieve my goal. I'm familiar with this process, I know what I need to do, and I'm going to do it. Thanks again to those who are giving reasonable advice and encouragement. 👍

 

[FutureDr8429033]

I really have to disagree with both of these statements. There's an awfully high self-righteousness : helpfulness ratio on display in this thread. (With some--as Alan Greenspan would put it--notable exceptions.) And FutureDr seems quite upfront about the fact that he/she is venting. What is a (so-far) failed applicant supposed to say? Accurate self-assessment requires clarity, but it doesn't require knee-jerk self-abasement. Decent numbers are decent numbers. (And, quite obviously, don't tell the whole story.) This process is frustrating, and more than a little random, but there's an weird sort of victimization thing that I see a lot on SDN whereby Adcoms are assumed to be wise, all-knowing, and benevolent, and if someone doesn't get in there must be a capital-R Reason. Admissions committee folks are just people--well intentioned people presented with an overwhelming abundance of data who mostly (but not always) do a good job of sorting it. No one should feel entitled to a spot in med school, but neither should we assume that because an outwardly strong candidate didn't get in, they have an attitude problem. Maybe they do, but maybe they have a mediocre letter. Maybe they tend to answer "why medicine?" questions poorly. Maybe they just got unlucky.
OP, good luck. April is a good time to vent. Come May it's time to get to work.

Quoted for truth. Yes, thank you. No skin off my back though. I particularly like the unstated premise that interviewers have extra-sensory perception, and if you feel overly-deserving, or have some less than savory motivation for entering medicine, THEY WILL KNOW. Oooooo. Yes, they're just people doing their best to sift through a mountain of information.

Again, with luck I'll get pulled off of a waitlist. I also did interview at one foreign school with a very respectable match list, and I'm waiting for a decision, though I'm a bit concerned about matching as an IMG in 2015. We'll see.

 

[0919mmk]

Quoted for truth. Yes, thank you. No skin off my back though. I particularly like the unstated premise that interviewers have extra-sensory perception, and if you feel overly-deserving, or have some less than savory motivation for entering medicine, THEY WILL KNOW. Oooooo. Yes, they're just people doing their best to sift through a mountain of information.

Again, with luck I'll get pulled off of a waitlist. I also did interview at one foreign school with a very respectable match list, and I'm waiting for a decision, though I'm a bit concerned about matching as an IMG in 2015. We'll see.

I'm sorry if my comments have been overly harsh - perhaps they were -mostly I was bothered by your apparent looking down on DOs, but that is indeed a whole other discussion. I of course am not implying that adcoms have ESP. All I'm saying is that they have a lot of practice at what they do, and they come up against a lot of kids with ulterior motives/inflated egos/etc. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that if one comes in hoping to fool an interviewer in to believing, for example, that one reeeally wants to be a DO when if fact one doesn't, they'll probably be able to tell. That's all.

 

[0919mmk]

I really have to disagree with both of these statements. There's an awfully high self-righteousness : helpfulness ratio on display in this thread. (With some--as Alan Greenspan would put it--notable exceptions.) And FutureDr seems quite upfront about the fact that he/she is venting. What is a (so-far) failed applicant supposed to say? Accurate self-assessment requires clarity, but it doesn't require knee-jerk self-abasement. Decent numbers are decent numbers. (And, quite obviously, don't tell the whole story.) This process is frustrating, and more than a little random, but there's an weird sort of victimization thing that I see a lot on SDN whereby Adcoms are assumed to be wise, all-knowing, and benevolent, and if someone doesn't get in there must be a capital-R Reason. Admissions committee folks are just people--well intentioned people presented with an overwhelming abundance of data who mostly (but not always) do a good job of sorting it. No one should feel entitled to a spot in med school, but neither should we assume that because an outwardly strong candidate didn't get in, they have an attitude problem. Maybe they do, but maybe they have a mediocre letter. Maybe they tend to answer "why medicine?" questions poorly. Maybe they just got unlucky.
OP, good luck. April is a good time to vent. Come May it's time to get to work.

There's certainly some degree of randomness to admissions decisions after a point, but I think it's reasonable to assume that if you have applied to ~20 schools x 2 cycles with fine stats and ECs with no accepts, it strongly suggests that there is something wrong with the application. I do apologize again if I've been overly critical, but the chances that something is up are pretty overwhealming. I'm not saying that it is an attitude problem, but the OP's attitude in this thread (for what little that might be worth in extrapolating to interview attitude) suggested that it might have been an issue. I'm not trying for a personal attack, I'm just trying for a little honest criticism.

 

[Journey2become]

First of all I'm very sorry you are going through this.

I personally don't think you sound bitter or jaded. It's just that the application processes takes a lot of time, money, energy and expectation. To see it all fall about in the end is devastating. It can induce you to shake your fist at the shy and scream "WHY????" - well, maybe not that far...
This will pass though. I'm sure once you figure out from admissions some of the reasons they decided to not give you an acceptance you will be able to work on those issues and apply to both MD and DO schools. (I have no doubt that I want to be a DO myself - but I know that either pathway is just a means to an end)

I could write a novel here, but I will keep it relatively short.

The application process has kicked my ass and all but completely broken my spirit. Twice. For the second year in a row I'm facing the prospect of being rejected from every school I applied to despite have competitive stats (3.63 w/ a 2.6 freshman year, balanced 32Q) and more than competitive ECs, some of which are very unique. I'm 30 years old. I have a graduate degree in a health science. I have spent years working in health care in several different capacities. I've shadowed docs in several different specialties, and I've volunteered. I worked nearly full-time while attending school full-time. I've sacrificed money and earning potential, free-time, relationships, vacations, you name it, to pursue my passion and my dream of attending medical school and becoming a physician. And for what? To watch 24 year olds I know with sub 30 MCAT scores, 3.2 gpas and ho-hum ECs get accepted while I experience the shame and humiliation of rejection. To watch others with competitive stats similar to my own, but with less real-world experience, saunter into med. school on their first try with no problems at all.

If I were a sub-par applicant, I could at least understand this. Yes, there are hordes of qualified applicants. But I am no less qualified than the majority of students nationwide who are accepted. It is maddening and, in my opinion, deplorable that I am deemed somehow unworthy by the "gatekeepers" of this profession, while so many starry-eyed, generic, neophyte applicants are welcomed with open arms.

Forgive me if I sound bitter or jaded. I am. I have given everything I can give, and I have received no validation whatsoever. This process is not a meritocracy. It's a capricious and masturbatory popularity contest, as far as I can tell.

Maybe my luck will change. Maybe I'll get pulled off of a waitlist. If I don't, I'll probably apply to DO schools next year, even though that's a huge compromise for me (personally....no disrespect). Please forgive me for what is obviously just a lot of venting. I am struggling to understand why this has happened to me, and schools are essentially blowing me off when I request feedback. In person I am not at all a miserable or whiney person. I am a good interviewer, and I've been offered every job I've ever interviewed for. I'm just done. I'm sick and tired, and I have a sinking feeling in the pit of my gut. All is not right in the world. Hard work doesn't always pay off. Sacrifice is sometimes in vain. Thank you for listening.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

I don't have too much to add from what's already been said, but I just wanted to throw down a quick note of thanks from the Non-Trad mod staff for the tenor of this discussion not heading for the ditch, as it most likely would have in most of the other forums. Lively discussion, and criticism not turning into an ad hominem mudslinging match, FTW 🙂

 

[TriagePreMed]

OP - I don't think there's a kinder way of saying you sound like a douche. You don't know the circumstances as to why other applicants are admitted. Please don't go into Osteopathic Medicine. I'm seriously considering this route and would hate to call you a colleague.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Oh, the irony...

 

[Journey2become]

Oh, the irony...

👍


you jinxed it Pons Asinorum lol!

 

[mauberley]

👍


you jinxed it Pons Asinorum lol!

Seriously. Way to go, Pons. 😛

 

[WernickeDO]

Oh, the irony...

If Alanis Morrissette and O. Henry had a baby, it would be that post.

That is an alcoholic being run over by a Guinness truck on his way to an AA meeting ironic.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Yes, I know that I sound douchey, but that's because I feel personally offended as a young person who doesn't have the 3.6/super EC and experience yet I'm working very hard to try to become competitive and make it. Not all of us had it figured out since day one or are able to do everything we wish we could do. I hate it when people like this assume why others get in and try to boil it all down to "I have better stats; ergo, I'm better than you."

 

[Pons Asinorum]

You could stand to do more of this...

I'm working very hard to try to become competitive and make it.

And less of this...

Yes, I know that I sound douchey, but...

I think the OP's main beef isn't with the stats; it's with the experience. He thinks his experiences make him competitive and the stats are the icing on the cake. And to be honest, his opinions on applying DO are mainstream. For as much straw man beating you do re: your stats keeping you out of the game, you could stand to be a little more lenient on someone else getting frustrated and doing a little venting/beating of their own. That's all I'm saying. Lobbing grenades isn't your strong suit.

 

[Lacheln]

Q laid it out (as usual), but I agree with the folks who have said that interviewing is likely the problem. Not because of the tenor of your post, but because you've gotten to that stage and no further. It's obviously frustrating, so in the interest of constructive commentary:

1. You cannot mock interview with someone you know. Someone who knows you cannot help but interpret your responses in the context of your relationship, so they cannot give you first impression feedback. In addition, any mock interview that you walk out of without serious food for thought was probably a waste of time. Oh, and don't listen to anything the interviewers tell you on interview day, it means nothing.

2. As Q also implied, we need to remember that med school interviews are like entry-level job interviews. You may have gotten every job you've interviewed for, but it's been a while since you've been an entry-level applicant. I was discussing the topic of older students/interviewing with one of our school administrators the other day, and she commented that older applicants with work experience often take the approach of emphasizing what they know, as opposed to what they can learn, because that's an appropriate approach for upper level job interviews. Unfortunately that can come across as entitlement, arrogance or inflexibility...qualities that medical schools generally like to instill in students AFTER matriculation. I kid. Sort of. But anyway, your focus isn't on selling tangible skills; you are selling your ability to adapt, reason through a problem, stay focused, and work on a team. I'm not as convinced that you have to have the "right" reason for wanting to be an MD, as long as you fulfill those first four criteria solidly and can demonstrate that you've explored the field in some tangible way. And frankly I think that both non-trads and trads can embody those traits with equal success, so I wouldn't assume an advantage on either side.

Good luck, I hope the waitlist gods are kind.

 

[TriagePreMed]

You could stand to do more of this...

And less of this...

I think the OP's main beef isn't with the stats; it's with the experience. He thinks his experiences make him competitive and the stats are the icing on the cake. And to be honest, his opinions on applying DO are mainstream. For as much straw man beating you do re: your stats keeping you out of the game, you could stand to be a little more lenient on someone else getting frustrated and doing a little venting/beating of their own. That's all I'm saying. Lobbing grenades isn't your strong suit.

I feel it all falls in a similar pile. As a non-trad, I have had less time to be able to do work in the field. I think a 22 year old out of college has also had less opportunity. To me, the OP was making a blanket statement of who deserves to be in med school and who doesn't based on stats and EC even though different circumstances fall on everyone.

 

[jd221b]

It is maddening and, in my opinion, deplorable that I am deemed somehow unworthy by the "gatekeepers" of this profession, while so many starry-eyed, generic, neophyte applicants are welcomed with open arms.

Forgive me if I sound bitter or jaded. I am. I have given everything I can give, and I have received no validation whatsoever. This process is not a meritocracy. It's a capricious and masturbatory popularity contest, as far as I can tell.

These are the particular parts of your venting that take it beyond "man this is frustrating" to putting all the blame for your lack of success on others. IMHO you were not deemed unworthy, there were just enough people ahead of you that were preferred over you. That's just a simple fact. Until you look at the whole picture objectively and identify and correct the weaknesses in your application instead of focusing on how you've been wronged, you deserve and will probably benefit greatly from the criticism you receive here. If you are rejected there is a reason, even if it is just that you reminded them all of their know-it-all cousin who uses words like masturbatory, and they can't stand.

But if you want it badly enough, stop saying "They want stupid things!" and start saying "How can I become the person they want?"

This is great advice



I think its worth noting that since your emotionally charged vent (which initially captured my sympathy) you have still come off pretty smug and defensive. The way you take constructive criticism says a lot about your attitude in general. Even your acknowledgements have carried an air of superiority.

I don't think it's arrogant to point out that I'm qualified, and that it's unbearably frustrating that some other people who are perhaps less qualified than myself are able to get accepted.

Actually it is. Because nobody can say that they are qualified until someone with the authority to make that judgement call says so, and not just in passing but in a way that counts (i.e. acceptance). You've also used too many words like deserve which has really taken me from feeling bad for you to wondering when your going to get what everyone is saying.

Either play the game with respect for the game, or get out of the way for those who are willing.

Finally, if you think that this process is unfair, get used to it. Here's an expose that in my mind casts some doubt on everyones MCAT score out there:
http://www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-are-tests-biased-against-students-who,17966/

Perhaps your experiences are just karma that make up for this kind of bias.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Ok, firstly, Triage and Pons... LMAO! Good work, I had a wonderful day, and that just made it better.

Secondly, FutureDr, in some of these later posts, you sound less (I guess the coined term is) douchy. I am sorry I came across with a bitch-slap, but to me, your posts reeked of ego. If I can pick it up across the interwebs, it may come through in your interview, this is all anyone is trying to say.

Do Adcoms have ESP, maybe, are they picked specifically for their ability to ID strong candidates to keep the schools stats >90-95%? YES! The dean of admissions at my nearest school is a JD. Why? Because he spots BS a mile away, and he interviews EVERY candidate. Not to mention he goes over every interviewers profile beforehand. I assume most Adcoms are similar. They pick people who are good judges of character; people who see through "the club tie, and the firm handshake, a certain look in the eye and an easy smile." They see people day after day and have learned to do this well. At our school you get the dean, 1 other adcom person (an MD), and a 4th yr student. The best 2 out of 3 wins. Even if the dean didn't like you, but the MD/4th yr said go, you're a go (to them Go means acceptance+waitlist)... So... are they mind readers, no but I bet there about as close as it comes to being one! Do I have it all figured out? Don't know, we'll see, but I have certainly done my due diligence, I have visited both of my top choices, I have emailed and asked questions in person, I have had many people read my PS and had some VERY harsh criticism given. I am slightly older than you, and I have learned many of the games people play in life. I want to be a doctor for the fact that I give a **** about any and all of you whether I know you or not, I give a **** about people ALL people (except child-molesters) and I want to help as many as I can all day long. Would that read well in a PS, no. Will it come across in my interviews (praying I get them) yes. Could that be the difference? For certain... and I'm willing to practice rural (or possibly urban) family medicine, so I could get some points there...

This is all a game, to be certain, you have to figure out what is holding you back.

We know these things to be true: you have good numbers, and you're pretty sure your ECs are solid
We don't know these things: LORs, interviews with strangers, attitude...

I do seriously wish you the best. I do hope that you are able to get in, but make sure you call/email every place, find what's wrong and fix it ASAP!

 

[jl lin]

Oh, the irony...

and the timing. . .lol

Well, you can try!

The process is frustrating. It cannot help but be so. There is this whole numbers game thing going on. What are you gonna do? But I think it's totally OK to vent your frustration. And I also think and hope that persistence will pay out in the long run.