Independent contractor rights

[forchinet121]

So I’m considering a 1099 telehealth position in a clinic, in the contract it says that I have to give 120 days notice if I want to quit, I have to give 60 days notice for vacations, they have a predetermined schedule for me (9-5), but I think it’s annoying that I have to give so much notice for vacations and that I have to stay there 120 days if I find it’s not a good fit. Is that allowed? I thought that as a 1099 I can quit and take vacation as I please? Am I mistaken?

Edit: the contract is with a recruiting agency that is placing me in this 3rd party clinic

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[Ironspy]

So I’m considering a 1099 telehealth position in a clinic, in the contract it says that I have to give 120 days notice if I want to quit, I have to give 60 days notice for vacations, they have a predetermined schedule for me (9-5), but I think it’s annoying that I have to give so much notice for vacations and that I have to stay there 120 days if I find it’s not a good fit. Is that allowed? I thought that as a 1099 I can quit and take vacation as I please? Am I mistaken?

That sounds like a w2 job where they want to pay you as 1099 for tax purposes and avoid paying for other benefits. Typical notice is 30 days for 1099

 

[the5thelement]

120 days is excessive. 30 days is what i have in a similar situation.
Also got this from google:"
The key differences between a 1099 vs W2 employee can be summarized in a few points:

• 1099 employees keep track of and pay their own taxes; W2 employees have their taxes withheld by their employers
• 1099 employees get to control and direct the result of their work; W2 employees work according to the employer’s needs and schedule
• 1099 employees don’t get employee benefits unless specified in the contract; W2 employees are entitled to a variety of employee benefits"

 

[PsyDr]

Good news, bad news situation. Contractors must be in control of their schedule. But contractors can't be paid for time off.

They can't really force you to stay, but the contract can dictate penalties for pretty much anything.

 

[Celexa]

So I’m considering a 1099 telehealth position in a clinic, in the contract it says that I have to give 120 days notice if I want to quit, I have to give 60 days notice for vacations, they have a predetermined schedule for me (9-5), but I think it’s annoying that I have to give so much notice for vacations and that I have to stay there 120 days if I find it’s not a good fit. Is that allowed? I thought that as a 1099 I can quit and take vacation as I please? Am I mistaken?

Paying you as a contractor and trying to treat you like an employee is a MASSIVE red flag. Avoid.

 

[forchinet121]

Good news, bad news situation. Contractors must be in control of their schedule. But contractors can't be paid for time off.

They can't really force you to stay, but the contract can dictate penalties for pretty much anything.

So let’s say I start working there, 2 weeks in I find out it’s not a good fit and I just tell them I quit, there’s nothing in the contract regarding specific penalties but can they do anything about it because it does say 120 days, would they sue me for something?

 

[TexasPhysician]

So let’s say I start working there, 2 weeks in I find out it’s not a good fit and I just tell them I quit, there’s nothing in the contract regarding specific penalties but can they do anything about it because it does say 120 days, would they sue me for something?

They could

 

[Celexa]

So let’s say I start working there, 2 weeks in I find out it’s not a good fit and I just tell them I quit, there’s nothing in the contract regarding specific penalties but can they do anything about it because it does say 120 days, would they sue me for something?

The problem with these situations is even if they are entirely in the wrong legally, they have money and time for legal bull**** and (presumably) you don't. It's how employers get away with illegal nonsense the world over.

 

[PsyDr]

So let’s say I start working there, 2 weeks in I find out it’s not a good fit and I just tell them I quit, there’s nothing in the contract regarding specific penalties but can they do anything about it because it does say 120 days, would they sue me for something?

Just have a lawyer look it over. It's like $500.

I am not a lawyer, so I don't know. It depends on your state. I imagine, they could sue you for some variation of breach of contract. But, to be enforceable, contracts have to be legal. I don' know if a misclassification of an employee makes a contract illegal. Usually people are not interested in having that discussion in open court.

 

[comp1]

Just, no?

 

[Merovinge]

Avoid using a recruiting agency if at all possible for this type of work. The likelihood this is a good job is very very low.

 

[Jules A]

120 days is excessive. 30 days is what i have in a similar situation.
Also got this from google:"
The key differences between a 1099 vs W2 employee can be summarized in a few points:

• 1099 employees keep track of and pay their own taxes; W2 employees have their taxes withheld by their employers
• 1099 employees get to control and direct the result of their work; W2 employees work according to the employer’s needs and schedule
• 1099 employees don’t get employee benefits unless specified in the contract; W2 employees are entitled to a variety of employee benefits"

Also worth noting the 1099 person pays the full boat on FICA/self employment tax as opposed to a split with W2 positions.

Self-employment tax (Social Security and Medicare taxes) | Internal Revenue Service

Self-employment tax rates, deductions, who pays and how to pay.

www.irs.gov

 

[Candidate2017]

30 days' notice for termination is standard for 1099. No formal notice is needed for vacation because contractors don't answer to anyone (but generally 2 weeks is a good informal notice).

In addition to being a sucky contract, it likely has a hold harmless indemnification clause "for all damages arising from this agreement." 120/60 days' notice means the employer is misclassifying you and will be in violation of whatever laws that require them to pay various taxes on employees. If they get hit with taxes and penalties, they can absolutely go after you under the indemnification clause.

Even for employees, I've never heard of any employer requiring that much notice for vacation. Again, whenever someone posts and asks if a gig sucks, the sensitivity and specificity of it actually sucking is 99.9%.

 

[forchinet121]

30 days' notice for termination is standard for 1099. No formal notice is needed for vacation because contractors don't answer to anyone (but generally 2 weeks is a good informal notice).

In addition to being a sucky contract, it likely has a hold harmless indemnification clause "for all damages arising from this agreement." 120/60 days' notice means the employer is misclassifying you and will be in violation of whatever laws that require them to pay various taxes on employees. If they get hit with taxes and penalties, they can absolutely go after you under the indemnification clause.

Even for employees, I've never heard of any employer requiring that much notice for vacation. Again, whenever someone posts and asks if a gig sucks, the sensitivity and specificity of it actually sucking is 99.9%.

You’re absolutely right upon further reading the contract there is an entire paragraph about this indemnification you’re referring to. I’m planning on telling them to remove the days regarding quitting and vacation and see what they say. It’s a good clinic and the pay is decent so I ideally would like to at least try it for a few weeks

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

30 days' notice for termination is standard for 1099. No formal notice is needed for vacation because contractors don't answer to anyone (but generally 2 weeks is a good informal notice).

In addition to being a sucky contract, it likely has a hold harmless indemnification clause "for all damages arising from this agreement." 120/60 days' notice means the employer is misclassifying you and will be in violation of whatever laws that require them to pay various taxes on employees. If they get hit with taxes and penalties, they can absolutely go after you under the indemnification clause.

Even for employees, I've never heard of any employer requiring that much notice for vacation. Again, whenever someone posts and asks if a gig sucks, the sensitivity and specificity of it actually sucking is 99.9%.

Nah the hold harmless thing won't hold up in terms of employee misclassification. It is the responsibility of the employer to properly classify whether someone is an employee or a contractor, not the worker. They can't try to recover damages from you for the organization doing something illegal (which is what misclassification is at the end of the day).
Hold harmless clauses are primarily for you not coming after the employer for something happening during the course of your employment you want to try to hold them liable for.

What does suck is if the IRS later determines you were supposed to be an employee, they could come and tell you both to redo all your taxes for those years if you were an employee (so you wouldn't pay FICA, etc but you also wouldn't be able to take the pass through deduction, deduct business expenses, etc). So yeah, wouldn't get into an agreement like this either way.

 

[Celexa]

You’re absolutely right upon further reading the contract there is an entire paragraph about this indemnification you’re referring to. I’m planning on telling them to remove the days regarding quitting and vacation and see what they say. It’s a good clinic and the pay is decent so I ideally would like to at least try it for a few weeks

Are you sure the pay is actually good once you factor in the tax differences between being employed and 1099? Bc it's easy for 1099 pay to look great and still be screwed over.

The fact they presented you with a contract with this nonsense in it is a pretty big signal about how the admin views their employees. The best possibility is they're clueless and the options devolve from there.

 

[Candidate2017]

You’re absolutely right upon further reading the contract there is an entire paragraph about this indemnification you’re referring to. I’m planning on telling them to remove the days regarding quitting and vacation and see what they say. It’s a good clinic and the pay is decent so I ideally would like to at least try it for a few weeks

The other danger is the fallout when insurance or Medicare/caid deems the clinic's billing to be erroneous/excessive and demands a clawback to be repaid. You will be on the hook due to the hold harmless indemnification clause. Indemnification clauses usually require you to pay for their legal fees too as part of the "defend and hold harmless." It would be wise to insert a billing code (and understand billing) into every note you write in order to somewhat mitigate this.

I believe there was a case where a UHS hourly contractor claimed he was had zero control over billing and therefore not liable for any overbilling by UHS, but the government still extracted a clawback settlement from him.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

The other danger is the fallout when insurance or Medicare/caid deems the clinic's billing to be erroneous/excessive and demands a clawback to be repaid. You will be on the hook due to the hold harmless indemnification clause. Indemnification clauses usually require you to pay for their legal fees too as part of the "defend and hold harmless." It would be wise to insert a billing code (and understand billing) into every note you write in order to somewhat mitigate this.

I believe there was a case where a UHS hourly contractor claimed he was had zero control over billing and therefore not liable for any overbilling by UHS, but the government still extracted a clawback settlement from him.

This can be correct and a bit different. So when someone submits billing they're submitting under your NPI or through the group NPI on your behalf but at the end of the day someone can always come back to you for billing because somewhere buried in all the things you signed at some point is something that authorizes the biller or organization to submit codes and bill on your behalf. So you are ultimately responsible for this. For this and for insurance reasons I always directly put the billing code into the note.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I would walk.

I have contractors. My attorney won’t let me dictate hours with contractors. That makes you an employee. The contract could say something like - psychiatrist agrees to work 35 hours between the hours of 8am-7pm Mon-Sat. That way I’m not dictating hours. The contractor can choose which hours to fulfill the contract.

The second I choose 9-5 mandatory, a mess of problems can occur.

 

[forchinet121]

I want to make clear that the recruiting agency is who the contract is with, I am going to be working at a very big health system clinic with a very good reputation but this contract is just with the recruiting agency that was able to get me 1099 to work at this big health system. I wanted to work directly at the health system as a 1099 but they told me they don’t accept direct 1099 workers so I had no choice but to go through this recruiting agency. I specifically want 1099 because I am working multiple jobs and want a lot of flexibility to start and stop so I’m gonna have a lawyer review the contract as well as have them remove/edit all the BS about vacation and termination.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I want to make clear that the recruiting agency is who the contract is with, I am going to be working at a very big health system clinic with a very good reputation but this contract is just with the recruiting agency that was able to get me 1099 to work at this big health system. I wanted to work directly at the health system as a 1099 but they told me they don’t accept direct 1099 workers so I had no choice but to go through this recruiting agency. I specifically want 1099 because I am working multiple jobs and want a lot of flexibility to start and stop so I’m gonna have a lawyer review the contract as well as have them remove/edit all the BS about vacation and termination.

If you are 1099 for anyone, they can’t tell you what hours to work.

Typical 1099 jobs I’ve had:
1. Addiction center rounding. I could show up at 6am or 4pm. They can’t complain.
2. Government outpatient clinic. I could show up at 6am or 10am and do 8 hour shifts or 10 hour shifts or 14 hour shifts. They accepted it all.
3. Inpatient rounding: see all patients between 6am-9pm. They don’t care when.

 

[allantois]

Did I mention that all problems in American healthcare are from lawyers..

How does this contract give you any flexibility? It sounds like it makes you an indentured servant

 

[forchinet121]

If you are 1099 for anyone, they can’t tell you what hours to work.

Typical 1099 jobs I’ve had:
1. Addiction center rounding. I could show up at 6am or 4pm. They can’t complain.
2. Government outpatient clinic. I could show up at 6am or 10am and do 8 hour shifts or 10 hour shifts or 14 hour shifts. They accepted it all.
3. Inpatient rounding: see all patients between 6am-9pm. They don’t care when.

Did I mention that all problems in American healthcare are from lawyers..

How does this contract give you any flexibility? It sounds like it makes you an indentured servant

But isn’t that the nature of outpatient? You have to have set hours as an outpatient doctor to have appointment times? The contract does say I have to submit in writing changes to my schedule like months in advance which seems absurd as well..I’m gonna get all of that removed

 

[TexasPhysician]

But isn’t that the nature of outpatient? You have to have set hours as an outpatient doctor to have appointment times? The contract does say I have to submit in writing changes to my schedule like months in advance which seems absurd as well..I’m gonna get all of that removed

In a 1099 outpatient role, you could have the ability to switch any day you want to telepsych. You could choose a different set of hours daily like 7-3 Monday then 10-7 Tuesday, etc for the week. It would be the clinics job to accommodate that on the schedule for the month.

When the clinic starts choosing hours, location, etc, it automatically should convert to a W2 job or I’d walk. This has many legal implications.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

In a 1099 outpatient role, you could have the ability to switch any day you want to telepsych. You could choose a different set of hours daily like 7-3 Monday then 10-7 Tuesday, etc for the week. It would be the clinics job to accommodate that on the schedule for the month.

When the clinic starts choosing hours, location, etc, it automatically should convert to a W2 job or I’d walk. This has many legal implications.

Exactly. Like at my current job (which is a 1099 outpatient job), last year I just said, I'm not working Thursday mornings anymore starting in 2 months, move my patients to other days if I have people scheduled. Bam, they did it, moved my patients, blocked my Thursday mornings, within like 2 days. I don't work Thursday mornings anymore.

Recently, just went I'm cutting back to 1 intake a day max. Same day, admin assistant email blasted all the people who take phone calls for scheduling, "Do not schedule more than 1 new patient a day for Dr. calvnandhobbs".

I try to think ahead for vacation because I just don't want to deal with having to fit a full week of patients somewhere else in my schedule but If I want to take vacation, I just tell the admin assistant to block that week for me and reschedule any patients who are in there other days. Bam, done nobody says anything about it.

So yeah, those are examples, you should have complete control over your schedule as 1099.

 

[forchinet121]

So to update I told them I want no notice on vacation aside from what’s reasonable like a week or so and then I want to be able to resign with one month notice, they said no they can’t do it at all they are not able to negotiate, I’m not gonna accept the job but I’m wondering if I should report them to someone for employee misclassification

 

[splik]

So to update I told them I want no notice on vacation aside from what’s reasonable like a week or so and then I want to be able to resign with one month notice, they said no they can’t do it at all they are not able to negotiate, I’m not gonna accept the job but I’m wondering if I should report them to someone for employee misclassification

The goverment is totally disinterested in the classification status of physicians. In some states like California, physicians are exempt from those laws as well (by our own request).

 

[Sushirolls]

I had a 120 day notice job in the past. Was highly unpleasant. Never again.

60 days or less is my new found life hard lesson.

 

[Sushirolls]

So to update I told them I want no notice on vacation aside from what’s reasonable like a week or so and then I want to be able to resign with one month notice, they said no they can’t do it at all they are not able to negotiate, I’m not gonna accept the job but I’m wondering if I should report them to someone for employee misclassification

Nah, let another doc take the job, and quit in haste.
Let another doc proceed to sue them for misclassification as a tit for tat strategy in case they come after that doc.
I know one doc who did this... got a settlement, and the employer learned their lesson. They changed their entire structure over to W2 employment for physicians after that.

 

[Celexa]

So to update I told them I want no notice on vacation aside from what’s reasonable like a week or so and then I want to be able to resign with one month notice, they said no they can’t do it at all they are not able to negotiate, I’m not gonna accept the job but I’m wondering if I should report them to someone for employee misclassification

No one in govt will care, but you did mention this is a staffing company and the actual instituion said all part time goes through them... Someone at the instituion might actually care to know about this, bc it's at least possible the staffing company has gone rogue and the people paying them don't know that the staffing company is trying to pull this bull**** and probably why they can't fill the spots

 

[forchinet121]

Update for educational purposes: I paid 400 and spoke to a healthcare contract attorney. He states the contract is legal and they are allowed to dictate whatever they want as long as we both agree to it. He states that I’m still 1099 because even though they set my schedule I am still able to change it with notice and we both agreed to it, with a w2 they dictate it whether or not you agree to it is what he says that’s the difference. He says 120 days notice is long but not out of the ordinary. At least I learned something from this.

 

[TheRightMedication]

Hearing a lawyer's opinion is always worth the dough. Thanks for letting us benefit from it as well.

 

[littlefred]

Hearing a lawyer's opinion is always worth the dough. Thanks for letting us benefit from it as well.

Let's start a gofundme to pay forchinet back! 120 days is extremely long time to give notice (especially since you are 1099), I can see companies doing that but with a sign on bonus.