Insincerity, selflessness, and apps

[Shredder]

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That is exactly the key. Knowing yourself well will undoubtably translate into a specialty that suits you. With that said there is a need for less compassionate "mechanics". Without them your biopsy or film wouldn't get read.

however i dont think med schools take too kindly to premeds proclaiming from the get go that theyre going into rads or path. you know how it is with 90% of premeds claiming to want rural or inner city FP or peds.

about the altruism bit--personally i dont give money to bums. i would only give it if they promised a return on my investment. i have worked hard for money (or taken loans) and so should they. i think subsidizing their lifestyles is bad for them. so in many regards im fundamentally opposed to most instances of supposed altruism. now how well would that go over with adcoms?

 

[DrBowtie]

Hmm...What about taking a budding biz prospect under your apprenticeship. I suggest you find a froshie on campus and hone him into a mini-shredder. Then you could help him out with establishing a future contact.

 

[CTSballer11]

Who said they are sacrificing talent? There are plenty of talented and compassionate folk. Those are the ones getting into med school - with the exception of those disingenous few who fake compassion; they're also getting in.

You may be right maybe they are not sacrificing talent. I think shredder mentioned earlier in this thread that schools are putting a lot of emphasis on altruism rather then numbers. I guess I made an assumption. I do not want to come across as cold but I am cynical. I agree with you that compassion is important but there are plenty of doctors who are in it to make as much profit as they can. I do not think there is anything wrong with that as long as they get the job done. If I am fortunate enough to make it into medical school I plan on being a compassionate doc. Just because a doc is compassionate does not mean he does not have any hidden agendas.

 

[jintonic5]

That is exactly the key. Knowing yourself well will undoubtably translate into a specialty that suits you. With that said there is a need for less compassionate "mechanics". Without them your biopsy or film wouldn't get read.

agreed. sometimes you just need a smart @$$hole around to get what needs to be done accomplished.

there are so many reasons to go into medicine, and so many different things that can be done in the medical profession, why kid ourselves in thinking that every single doctor should have the the same core motivations? altruism and compassion are very important, imho, but you can't (always) empathize a disease away.

it's sad that there are those out there who lie on their applications, but if anything i give shredder credit for pointing it out and being upfront about it. don't hate the player, hate the game. i mean, in a lot of ways, how different is shredder's OP from other OP's that discuss strategy in applications?

 

[Shredder]

Sorry I did not mean to imply that. I am saying that more compassionate doctors are BETTER than those that are not, presuming equal competence. Basically, I am saying compassion is a necessary element to a physician, in certain fields (admittedly a pathologist or even a surgeon need not be that compassionate, as their patient contact is pretty minimal).

time for some devils advocate. first of all, the phrase "all other things being equal" doesnt have a lot of meaning in practical matters, bc rarely if ever are all other things equal unless youre conducting controlled studies. secondly, is compassion in physicians overrated? this might be something to start a thread on sometime. what i mean is that i think a lot of patients dont need compassion, what they need is scared straight, healthcare style. i dont feel like elaborating right now, you can probably fill in the details. basically when ppl know mr. friendly doc will always be there to condole all of their health atrocities, they will continue to commit them. again i dont necessarily believe this, but its something to consider.

 

[gujuDoc]

You may be right maybe they are not sacrificing talent. I think shredder mentioned earlier in this thread that schools are putting a lot of emphasis on altruism rather then numbers. I guess I made an assumption. I do not want to come across as cold but I am cynical. I agree with you that compassion is important but there are plenty of doctors who are in it to make as much profit as they can. I do not think there is anything wrong with that as long as they get the job done. If I am fortunate enough to make it into medical school I plan on being a compassionate doc. Just because a doc is compassionate does not mean he does not have any hidden agendas.

I am just going to say that this is what I feel too.

 

[pseudoknot]

Just a few random observations.

Shredder, I'm not sure why you're asking us this, really. You are trying to enter a field that, as a whole, finds your values offensive. If you want to be accepted, you have to either change your values or conceal them. It's your choice to try to enter the field.

I certainly don't advocate lying in the admissions process or anywhere else, but everyone highlights some personal qualities and downplays others in situations like this. (Yes, except for all the self-righteous premeds who are perfect in every way and don't need to do that, but I'm not going to deal with them here.)

Anyway, I'm not sure why, but I too think you have a decent human being buried somewhere within you, and once you have more life experience you'll see the world a bit differently. I certainly hope you get into the school of your choice. (Frankly, I think you deserve it just for saying that you have "mediocre recs" in your mdapps profile!)

Finally, the ability to at least convincingly simulate empathy and compassion is certainly something physicians should have, but I think it's not much more common in doctors than any other professionals, or people of any kind.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

Hmm, does altruism truly exist? I do not know if there is such an easy answer to this question. I think an integral part of being human is the notion of the self, and it is hard to imagine any real moment where someone can be selfless.

Everyone has their own reasons for volunteering their time, and on the surface sure it may look selfless. But underneath, I know a lot of people who do it merely for the sake of buffing their application, or resume, or to get some honor or award. Even to a lesser degree, the simple self-satisfaction of volunteering can be construed to serving your own means. After all, theoretically if I feel good about how I am volunteering for the Red Cross, then I am still a little selfish in a way. I'm doing something that makes me feel good and it just happens to serve other people. Some would regard those who say "I like to help people" as altruistic, but maybe the reality is they're just helping themselves.

I think in the end, real altruism is something where you are not thanked, and you don't think twice about it, and it's something where you really helped someone. In my lifetime, I've had a few realizations where I was startled by the fact that I was "altruistic." One of these was over the summer during my SMEP program. A friend of mine at school needed a ride to Kroger's for groceries, and it was out of my way and all but that didn't bother me. I gave him a lift and literally did not think twice about it at all. At the end of the summer, he wanted to get a picture with me and I'm smiling with him and all and he totally tells me, out of the blue, how grateful he was for that ride to Kroger's. And I go, "huH? OH. haha."

Anyway, Shredder, sometimes something as simple and stupid as that is all it takes, man. You don't have to be the Gold Star Volunteer of the Year, with mission journeys to Africa and Ecuador. It's not what you do, it's that you do it, and I'm sure there have been times in your life, and you probably did not even realize it, where you were the guy who helped someone out. Even if it means showing your peers how to solve that differential equation, or giving a buck to a thirsty friend for a soda-pop.

And yes, I did just use the word "soda-pop"

 

[DrBowtie]

Compassion and empathy are different than Altruism. I agree that if you couldn't care less if your pt is in pain then this is the wrong gig for you. But to put all of your pts above your own needs I think is a bit farfetched.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

Compassion and empathy are different than Altruism. I agree that if you couldn't care less if your pt is in pain then this is the wrong gig for you. But to put all of your pts above your own needs I think is a bit farfetched.

uhnnn i've seemed to sandwich myself between you and ben 😳

 

[DrBowtie]

Indeed, maybe I should have quoted.

 

[DrBowtie]

And yes, I did just use the word "soda-pop"

Where I am from everything is a "Coke"
Me: Do you have any Cokes?
Friend: Yeah, what do you want? Sprite or Pepsi?

Talk about brand integration.

 

[Shredder]

Compassion and empathy are different than Altruism. I agree that if you couldn't care less if your pt is in pain then this is the wrong gig for you. But to put all of your pts above your own needs I think is a bit farfetched.

see the thing about that is that a patient is a customer--if you treat them well, you get better business= more money. treat them crappy and you get no business. therefore the smart and selfish storeowner will be friendly, and the analogous doc will do solid work.

burning mr smith: im not evil. its not a case of goodness buried beneath an evil coat that im going to shed eventually. by pursuing what i want, others will benefit peripherally whether i care about them or not, such as bill gates and Windows. personally i want a billion dollars. now if i do that by revamping healthcare in some fashion (i wish i knew), so much the better for everyone, right?

one of the biggest flaws with most altruism is that you subsidize laziness. do you want to be a part of that? i dont give money to thirsty friends, i lend it. a friend who keeps leaching in this manner is a friend no more. i dont give money to homeless bums who pester me for it; its bad for the economy, since theyre better off finding meaningful work.

i wouldnt have broached this subject at all if only med schools would also let it rest instead of forcing it down my throat in secondaries, and probably interviews as well. altruism has no bearing on medicine.

 

[unfrozencaveman]

interesting...i like hearing the perspectives of ppl who have firsthand experience rather than speculation. this is something ive wondered about b school and the b world actually. ive been under the impression that in the b world you are valued for being ruthless and merciless, with an eye only for increasing the bottom line. well, ill see what its really like eventually.

people who say that you should accept people who have both arent conceding that things dont work like that, everything comes at a cost. actually you could have both if there were a high enough supply of applicants with stellar grades and MCATs, but the bell curve shows that this is not the case.

I think med school applicants get a lot more leniency in terms of their personality- plus there are a hell of a lot more medical schools than b-schools (at least ones that would be worth going to), so I think they can be far more discriminating. But, aside from the people I know from working (consulting and investment banking), my own friends who go/went to business school could kick my ass everyday and twice on sunday. Here is a sampling:

Princeton ugrad/Stanford MBA- worked in South africa doing AIDS research (or something) two years post-graduation, no business experience really

contrast that to:

Princeton ugrad/Stanford MBA- went the usual Goldman to venture capital route, great guy, typical corporate mofo.

Harvard ugrad/Wharton MBA- four year varsity athlete, went to two years in peace corps, then Wharton, now works for Nike

CAL undergrad/Wharton MBA- former olympian

Dartmouth ugrad/HBS- family business is now major subsidiary of Adidas.

Those are the only five people I know (as regular, non work friends) in business school. They are all completely ridiculous (and surprisingly well adjusted). It's a diverse group (I mean, if you can appreciate the irony of four white dudes from various ivys being diverse), and the stereotypes of people in business school just dont hold up anymore I dont think. Of course, the math of economics is still the same, but unless you want Elliot Spitzer hiding in your bushes, the climate of business, at least at the grad school level, I doubt is the same.

 

[Shredder]

Where I am from everything is a "Coke"
Me: Do you have any Cokes?
Friend: Yeah, what do you want? Sprite or Pepsi?

Talk about brand integration.

ha, if coke reps were around they would frown on that practice of abusing their brand name. kind of like hmm what are other examples...Kleenex, ugh i know there are others, i learned it in my marketing class.

 

[BaylorGuy]

I like where this discussion is going. I too like to play the devil's advocate....a few questions you can ask yourself

1). Would you like a surgeon to operate on your small intestine/colon (since you are all full of **** 🙂) who can tell the difference between the end of your jejunum and beginning of your ileum but could care less about you....OR...would you like a surgeon to operate on you who is really nice and sympathizes with you about that time when the mean boss stole your stapler but cant tell the difference between your artery and vein??

2). Do you think that all medical schools in the past wanted to know about pre-med's altruistic tendencies?? Or how smart and dedicated they were to learning medicine??

3). Do you think that you arent a true doctor unless you have compassion??

Basically, i'd always pick a crass, mean, hard-ass doctor who knew what the hell he or she was doing over someone who doesn't. Kind of like whether you want the attending or the first-year resident deliver your first child. What i'm trying to get at is that I dont think compassion/altrusim and medicine are mutualistic. Its good that more altruism and compassion has pervaded into medicine, but it shouldn't be a requirement for admission.

On a side note, BrettBachelor must be from the South....everything here is a Coke. And what with blaming the liberals for this?? pshhhh.

 

[DrBowtie]

I never claimed it was the liberals but I will reluctantly admit I am from the South, but not the deep south damnit...we had soldiers on both sides of the mason dixon.

 

[CTSballer11]

I like where this discussion is going. I too like to play the devil's advocate....a few questions you can ask yourself

1). Would you like a surgeon to operate on your small intestine/colon (since you are all full of **** 🙂) who can tell the difference between the end of your jejunum and beginning of your ileum but could care less about you....OR...would you like a surgeon to operate on you who is really nice and sympathizes with you about that time when the mean boss stole your stapler but cant tell the difference between your artery and vein??

I asked this same question earlier but I have to admit, there is no way someone could finish a surgery residency and not be able to tell the difference between the two. If this is the case they will not be operating for to much longer.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

I like where this discussion is going. I too like to play the devil's advocate....a few questions you can ask yourself

1). Would you like a surgeon to operate on your small intestine/colon (since you are all full of **** 🙂) who can tell the difference between the end of your jejunum and beginning of your ileum but could care less about you....OR...would you like a surgeon to operate on you who is really nice and sympathizes with you about that time when the mean boss stole your stapler but cant tell the difference between your artery and vein??

I'll have the robot please. Surgeon does not need to interact with me. I'd take the most competent thing possible, even if it's a damn robot with no personality whatsoever. 0.0001% chance failure is better than 100% sympathetic, tree-hugger type 😉

2). Do you think that all medical schools in the past wanted to know about pre-med's altruistic tendencies?? Or how smart and dedicated they were to learning medicine??

Historically? How far "in the past" are you referring? I think in the 1800's (and to some extent early 1900's) everything was so rudimentary and different that there is no grounds for comparisan to now. Hell back then you could get licences in 4 months. No joke. Back then it was probably how aristocratic you were as well, probably trade related, so as long as daddy was a doc you could be one too.

3). Do you think that you arent a true doctor unless you have compassion??

Realistically, I do not know what the definition of a true doctor is at this point. I have had some clinical contact and witnessed / shadowed medicine in action, and from what I've seen well hell, there is a lot of self-sacrifice. It's hard work, often times it can be thankless, so yeah, altruism needs to be there so you keep on going... compassion is nice too. There is a reason people do this work, and it's not to get the paycheck. For some, well maybe it's the challenge they like, maybe it's solving the mysteries... okay so these are still true doctors, and yeah they help people but for them it's about solving things. So I would answer this as no - you can be a true doctor even without "compassion." But the best docs, and I say this having met some really amazing ones, are both. They are competent, they are caring, and they're just... well, they're people you would trust your kids with. And you can't do any better than that. And it's not even a matter of being a doc, hell it's a matter of being a human being.

*done with my preachiness* 🙂

 

[DrBowtie]

I like where this discussion is going. I too like to play the devil's advocate....a few questions you can ask yourself

1). Would you like a surgeon to operate on your small intestine/colon (since you are all full of **** 🙂) who can tell the difference between the end of your jejunum and beginning of your ileum but could care less about you....OR...would you like a surgeon to operate on you who is really nice and sympathizes with you about that time when the mean boss stole your stapler but cant tell the difference between your artery and vein??

I asked this same question earlier but I have to admit, there is no way someone could finish a surgery residency and not be able to tell the difference between the two. If this is the case they will not be operating for to much longer.

This also opens up the can of snakes that is intelligence vs. manual dexterity for surgeons. They could be the last person in their medical class but have gifted hands. Would you want them as your surgeon or could they even get a surgery residency?

 

[benelswick]

As a reformed socialist I can dig the toipic of this thread. Also I hate the idea of useless displays of 'do-goodery' occupuying too much of my time.

However its a dangerous comparison that makes no distinction between the function and process of the business world to that of medicine. The physician has to be on a higher, more sanctimonious moral ground. The fact that medicine is undoing itselft from the inside out by maintaining such dubious conflicts of interest that parallel normal practice in the business world has been marked by a collapse in the doctor/patient relationship. And it threatens medicine's foundation.

 

[pseudoknot]

Compassion and empathy are different than Altruism. I agree that if you couldn't care less if your pt is in pain then this is the wrong gig for you. But to put all of your pts above your own needs I think is a bit farfetched.

I agree completely. I doubt that most reasonable people (on or off admission committees) would expect doctors to put patients' needs above all their own. But, part of being a professional is subordinating your own interests to those of your client, at least to an extent. I'm sure Shredder can talk about how he will strike that balance without having to betray any principles.

 

[CTSballer11]

This also opens up the can of snakes that is intelligence vs. manual dexterity for surgeons. They could be the last person in their medical class but have gifted hands. Would you want them as your surgeon or could they even get a surgery residency?

"Complications" by Atul Gawande briefly answers your question. A "top" surgeon was asked who he would take for a surgery residency. A PHD or a sculptor. He chose the PHD. Someone last in their medical school class probably would not match.

 

[DrBowtie]

Agree, Shredder after much thought about your unique situation, I think you should go about it from the biz standpoint. I think you should go into how you think you could streamline the hospital to benefit the hospital's bottom line and allow for BETTER patient care (notice I say better, not longer, not more compassionate).

 

[DrBowtie]

"Complications" by Atul Gawande briefly answers your question. A "top" surgeon was asked who he would take for a surgery residency. A PHD or a sculptor. He chose the PHD. Someone last in their medical school class probably would not match.

Interesting, I should pick up that book. Thanks.

 

[CTSballer11]

I agree completely. I doubt that most reasonable people (on or off admission committees) would expect doctors to put patients' needs above all their own. But, part of being a professional is subordinating your own interests to those of your client, at least to an extent. I'm sure Shredder can talk about how he will strike that balance without having to betray any principles.

Believe it or not, if a doctor is on call and he is paged he has to report back to the hospital. My uncle is a surgeon and he has missed quite a few christmas's, thanksgivings. etc. He said "patients always come first."

 

[Shredder]

1). Would you like a surgeon to operate on your small intestine/colon (since you are all full of **** 🙂) who can tell the difference between the end of your jejunum and beginning of your ileum but could care less about you....OR...would you like a surgeon to operate on you who is really nice and sympathizes with you about that time when the mean boss stole your stapler but cant tell the difference between your artery and vein??

a frequent sdn question. of course this example is rudimentary and symbolic, but the concept is true. maybe this is the difference between FP, peds, and internal med vs highly specialized fields? could it be that med schools lately are trying to churn out more FP, peds, and internal, and this is reflected in their current admissions criteria?

2). Do you think that all medical schools in the past wanted to know about pre-med's altruistic tendencies?? Or how smart and dedicated they were to learning medicine??

ive heard that if you ask old docs what they did to get into med school, they say good grades and scores. i suspect they are telling the truth. if a modern doc said this, they would only be telling half the story. if all you do in college today is get stellar grades and scores, you will face many rejections and have almost no chance at choice schools. since when did extracurricular activities become med schools' business anyway?

3). Do you think that you arent a true doctor unless you have compassion??

And what with blaming the liberals for this??

i think medicine could benefit from having some scared straight docs. some people need them.

eh, i blame liberals for every problem i see. but i didnt intend to start a political discussion.

 

[Shredder]

I asked this same question earlier but I have to admit, there is no way someone could finish a surgery residency and not be able to tell the difference between the two. If this is the case they will not be operating for to much longer.

yeah, but to really flesh out this example would require knowledge that none of us currently have. i think you can see the logic though. in reality it would be some minor intricacy that may not result in the difference between life and death, but it could still result in some effect.

 

[Shredder]

Agree, Shredder after much thought about your unique situation, I think you should go about it from the biz standpoint. I think you should go into how you think you could streamline the hospital to benefit the hospital's bottom line and allow for BETTER patient care (notice I say better, not longer, not more compassionate).

indeed, but for a med school apps process that is designed for cookie cutter premeds, its not always easy to fit in things like that. especially when questions ask me point blank to define altruism and cite examples. if i stray too far from the cookie cutter ideal, its a big risk, and inevitably people cry to forget med and just go biz, a la an md/phd candidate who talks too much science. ill definitely fill you in come next year when you apply. ha, presuming things go ok for me

plus you always have to remember the composition and mindset of the adcoms. what makes perfect sense to you and me may not be taken so favorably to them, no matter how logical. people are people.

 

[CTSballer11]

yeah, but to really flesh out this example would require knowledge that none of us currently have. i think you can see the logic though. in reality it would be some minor intricacy that may not result in the difference between life and death, but it could still result in some effect.

That is true but most surgeons are very good at what they do.

 

[DrBowtie]

indeed, but for a med school apps process that is designed for cookie cutter premeds, its not always easy to fit in things like that. especially when questions ask me point blank to define altruism and cite examples. if i stray too far from the cookie cutter ideal, its a big risk, and inevitably people cry to forget med and just go biz, a la an md/phd candidate who talks too much science. ill definitely fill you in come next year when you apply. ha, presuming things go ok for me

plus you always have to remember the composition and mindset of the adcoms. what makes perfect sense to you and me may not be taken so favorably to them, no matter how logical. people are people.

True, I hope things go well for you. People are indeed people but hopefully even if they don't agree with your perspective, they will see that you have a well backed arguement and will appreciate it.

 

[Shredder]

That is true but most surgeons are very good at what they do.

no matter how good ppl are at what they do, things always assume a distribution

 

[crazy_cavalier]

indeed, but for a med school apps process that is designed for cookie cutter premeds, its not always easy to fit in things like that. especially when questions ask me point blank to define altruism and cite examples. if i stray too far from the cookie cutter ideal, its a big risk, and inevitably people cry to forget med and just go biz, a la an md/phd candidate who talks too much science. ill definitely fill you in come next year when you apply. ha, presuming things go ok for me

Your numbers are solid, and you have research and other relevant distinctions. Also, you have some clinical exposure (was that summer program SMEP? just curious btw.) What are you worried about? honestly, I would never pin you to be neurotic like the rest of us 😉 but this thread shows you have your own share of vulnerabilities

It seems your chances are really good and I think things will go well for you. Just do well during your interviews. There is no room for even the slightest hint of arrogance during the interview. Show them you'd be a fun classmate and their student body could benefit from having you, but be humble and honest.

And don't sweat it, you'll get interviews. Flip through the MSAR to reassure yourself community service and volunteering is not required, they report what percentages do such activities. Just remember you've got a lot under your belt and you don't have to have everything the "cookie-cutter" premed presents.

 

[BaylorGuy]

I think this is a hard question to answer...plus, i think my questions kind of sucked.

Personally, i think the best question to ask is what happened between old school doctors (i.e graduates from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s) and the newer school doctors (i'm counting the 80 for an overlap period, 90s, now)???

I think that the doctors of yesteryear knew what they were getting into. Their good grades and scores prepared them for years of studying....they knew what they were getting into. It wasnt going to be easy, nor nice, but they knew that once they finished they would be a doctor who had status, prestige, money, and could really work how they felt. NOW, there is more competition, plus requirements seem to be changing and both the schools and adcoms are making medicine look "less intense." rosy pictures are painted, stating why you should attend school X, Y, Z. They dont tell you about the years of studying and "paying your dues." By the end of all this, you just wind up a cynical bastard....why not be a cynical bastard at the very beginning and get it over with???

Shredder, its easy to blame the other side (liberals or democrats), which is why i choose to blame my government and both sides instead of pick and choose (i'm libertarian)

 

[DrBowtie]

Baylor...you must like my avatar then. I too have my roots as a libertarian.

 

[Shredder]

Your numbers are solid, and you have research and other relevant distinctions. Also, you have some clinical exposure (was that summer program SMEP? just curious btw.) What are you worried about? honestly, I would never pin you to be neurotic like the rest of us 😉 but this thread shows you have your own share of vulnerabilities

It seems your chances are really good and I think things will go well for you. Just do well during your interviews. There is no room for even the slightest hint of arrogance during the interview. Show them you'd be a fun classmate and their student body could benefit from having you, but be humble and honest.

And don't sweat it, you'll get interviews. Flip through the MSAR to reassure yourself community service and volunteering is not required, they report what percentages do such activities. Just remember you've got a lot under your belt and you don't have to have everything the "cookie-cutter" premed presents.

thanks for the reassurance. sometimes i do wonder if im needlessly pessimistic. however, beyond my own saga, its disturbing to see the trends that are apparent in med school admissions and among premeds. its one thing for individuals to be insincere but its another for an entire system to foster it.

no arrogance ha you sound just like my dad, good advice though. oh the thing wasnt an SMEP, it was a new program affiliated with my university. i imagine it was similar.

 

[Shredder]

By the end of all this, you just wind up a cynical bastard....why not be a cynical bastard at the very beginning and get it over with???

Shredder, its easy to blame the other side (liberals or democrats), which is why i choose to blame my government and both sides instead of pick and choose (i'm libertarian)

haha yes a lot of allos and residents have commented around here about the cynicism factor. so the cynicism has to come into play sometime huh..but the problem is that if its too soon like myself, you get punished for it! meaning--insincerity or bust!

im ok with libertarians, they tend to vote with the gop. at least they arent robin hoods. i fear that without some moral order society may fade into decadence, so i lean right, but of late the right hasnt been so active in shrinking big govt 🙁 .

 

[Shredder]

Baylor...you must like my avatar then. I too have my roots as a libertarian.

the problem i have with libertarianism is that i usually associate it with college students who will eventually turn conservative, but for right now they want to smoke their pot and freely love with a clear conscience. i dont know if i could live in a society rampant with crack addicts and hookers. i do think that the economic side is more important though, so i cant complain about it too much.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

thanks for the reassurance. sometimes i do wonder if im needlessly pessimistic. however, beyond my own saga, its disturbing to see the trends that are apparent in med school admissions and among premeds. its one thing for individuals to be insincere but its another for an entire system to foster it.

no arrogance ha you sound just like my dad, good advice though. oh the thing wasnt an SMEP, it was a new program affiliated with my university. i imagine it was similar.

oh, that's cool. anyway you have the most essential thing: clinical contact. all the volunteering in the world doesn't matter if you don't have clinical contact. it's obvious you know what you're getting yourself into by choosing medicine, and personally, I think your financial insights are refreshing and necessary to the security of medicine in the near future. we need physician leaders who have financial savvy to somehow derail us from the trajectory of our failing system and the potential catastrophe(s) that awaits in the next decade or so...

ultimately I agree the premed trend is disturbing and a little disappointing. it's funny premeds can take something like volunteering and well, premedify it. at my school, it's even gotten to the point where volunteering is competitive and it may not be possible to get a position through our volunteering organization! can you imagine that? messed up.

but anyhow, again you seem really solid. of course the best advice that could be given to you would be to be cautious with how you present yourself... even at the secondary stage. I can see your position and if I were in it personally I would play my cards in such a way as to cover all the bases, but at the same time be honest. I'll admit it's a tough position... anyway, like someone else said here earlier, play the game and good luck! 🙂

 

[DrBowtie]

I agree that they tend to be alittle crazy in terms of social issues but I am spot on with their small government and low taxes. Leave charity up to the private sectors and churches not the government. Where I depart from republicans is where they merge with the Christian base. They put a damper on real scientific advancement.

 

[Shredder]

at my school, it's even gotten to the point where volunteering is competitive and it may not be possible to get a position through our volunteering organization! can you imagine that? messed up.

ha at the hospital nearest my huge school, the app process for volunteering involves an essay and rec letter. then you may have to make compromises on what area you serve in and at what times. unbelievable. admittedly, there was a time i looked into it, then i realized how bogus it was and wrote it off.

my bros a resident, which is where i got most of my exposure to med. there is speculation that having docs in the family counts against you in apps bc you might be just following footsteps. if that speculation is true...man thats pretty bogus. family docs are invaluable.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

the problem i have with libertarianism is that i usually associate it with college students who will eventually turn conservative, but for right now they want to smoke their pot and freely love with a clear conscience. i dont know if i could live in a society rampant with crack addicts and hookers. i do think that the economic side is more important though, so i cant complain about it too much.

hahaha well, time for my political facet to shine... I must confess I too lean towards conservative outlooks and behavior. personally, I think one of the bigger challenges I will face as a physician will be "opening up" and/or reserving judgments on people or behaviors that, in the past, I've condemned

 

[Shredder]

I agree that they tend to be alittle crazy in terms of social issues but I am spot on with their small government and low taxes. Leave charity up to the private sectors and churches not the government. Where I depart from republicans is where they merge with the Christian base. They put a damper on real scientific advancement.

ha you love that quick reply, but not quite quick enough. well, the republicans have to get their votes. frists recent comments should help things along in science. plus, the private sector is free to pursue whatever research, its only publicly funded projects that face restrictions. but admittedly basic science can suffer under govt restrictions.

 

[DrBowtie]

Yeah I quick reply and then forget to quote. It should be auto selected.

 

[Shredder]

hahaha well, time for my political facet to shine... I must confess I too lean towards conservative outlooks and behavior. personally, I think one of the bigger challenges I will face as a physician will be "opening up" and/or reserving judgments on people or behaviors that, in the past, I've condemned

👍 (by the way, why the heck is the smily list smaller now?) yeah i couldnt agree more. i dont care what the medical establishment tells me, i am not going to love gayness, i will say it right now. at the same time, i think the important thing is that even if you do judge, you cannot let that affect your performance and effort, and your treatment of patients as well. still, dont let establishments brainwash you out of your beliefs. there are ways to have it all i think.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

ya I don't care for promiscuity... gosh I hope I don't make any faces if I take a sexual history and there's a long list of partners...

 

[DrBowtie]

ya I don't care for promiscuity... gosh I hope I don't make any faces if I take a sexual history and there's a long list of partners...

I heard of a lwasuit in Cali that a gyn wouldn't artificially inseminate a single lesbian mother. So watch out.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

I heard of a lwasuit in Cali that a gyn wouldn't artificially inseminate a single lesbian mother. So watch out.

hmm, I think you're quoting the wrong person (promiscuity != lesbian, != is a symbol for does-not), but anyhow it seems that, as long as the gyn was willing to make a referral, that lawsuit is a little silly. now, if the gyn refused to even refer, then perhaps that's grounds for the suit

 

[Shredder]

btw concerning selflessness and altruism--typically premeds write and talk about how much they enjoy doing their altruistic deeds, right? wouldnt it be more proper to talk about how much you hate it, but grit your teeth and labor your way through it anyway, for the good of your fellow man and no satisfaction of your own? now that would be something!

referral huh, good idea, then cant you refer your promiscuous patients all away?

 

[DrBowtie]

hmm, I think you're quoting the wrong person (promiscuity != lesbian, != is a symbol for does-not), but anyhow it seems that, as long as the gyn was willing to make a referral, that lawsuit is a little silly. now, if the gyn refused to even refer, then perhaps that's grounds for the suit

It wasn't so much the content of the lawsuit just that they were sued for following their principles. I was quoting you.