Insulin pen, box: open box or not? Rite Aid Old Memo of 2013?

[BenJammin]

I have never heard of breaking open insulin pen boxes, other than on this board. As others have stated, the pens come with paper directions....there is only 1 set of directions per box, it seems obvious the pens should be dispensed in the unbroken box. I have also never heard of getting a chargeback for dispensing a box (where the chargebacks come is when someone gives out 2 boxes where were a 36 day supply and rounds down to 30 days....in this case, the person must be given 1 box as an 18 day supply.)

That makes zero sense. Tamsulosin only comes with one patient information sheet so I guess I can't break a bottle of that either? Come on. You better be breaking boxes, otherwise you're screwing your patients out of a copay. Might want to tell us what pharmacy you work for so people can know that they will pay extra copays to shop at your pharmacy. Unbelievable.

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[owlegrad]

That makes zero sense. Tamsulosin only comes with one patient information sheet so I guess I can't break a bottle of that either? Come on. You better be breaking boxes, otherwise you're screwing your patients out of a copay. Might want to tell us what pharmacy you work for so people can know that they will pay extra copays to shop at your pharmacy. Unbelievable.

How on earth is dispensing a whole box screwing your patients out of a copay? If anything only getting 2 pens would be screwing your patient out of a copay, since they would have to return to the pharmacy for refills more often and pay their copay more often.

 

[BenJammin]

How on earth is dispensing a whole box screwing your patients out of a copay? If anything only getting 2 pens would be screwing your patient out of a copay, since they would have to return to the pharmacy for refills more often and pay their copay more often.

Let me quote the post again so I can reference it in my reply

I have also never heard of getting a chargeback for dispensing a box (where the chargebacks come is when someone gives out 2 boxes where were a 36 day supply and rounds down to 30 days....in this case, the person must be given 1 box as an 18 day supply.)

So we're not breaking boxes and we're billing insurance correctly. 1 box = 18 day supply and their pharmacy doesn't break boxes so the patient gets 1 box billed as an 18 day supply. So the patient gets billed a copay for the box and will pay that same copay again 18 days later. 365/30= 12.1= 12 copays when you break boxes. 365/18 = 20.2 = 20. You are charging the patient 8 more times than you should be. Instead of ripping your patient's off financially, just break the damn box like you're supposed to.

 

[owlegrad]

Let me quote the post again so I can reference it in my reply



So we're not breaking boxes and we're billing insurance correctly. 1 box = 18 day supply and their pharmacy doesn't break boxes so the patient gets 1 box billed as an 18 day supply. So the patient gets billed a copay for the box and will pay that same copay again 18 days later. 365/30= 12.1= 12 copays when you break boxes. 365/18 = 20.2 = 20. You are charging the patient 8 more times than you should be. Instead of ripping your patient's off financially, just break the damn box like you're supposed to.

Ah yes, now it makes sense. In that case the patient is getting the shaft. That would only happen if the insurance only allowed 30 days supply though.

Even if you do break a box the amount of insulin will not usually divide evenly into a 30 days supply so regardless with the patient will get less than a 30 day supply or the insurance will not get billed properly. I mean it is the same problem if they are getting a vial, no?

 

[wagrxm2000]

I simply call the md and change the directions like max x units per day but tell them the correct directions.

 

[trailerpark]

Even if 1 box is billed as a 30 day supply that doesn't mean the patient will be back in 30 days to pay another copay. They'll wait till they're out or 140 days later, which ever is sooner.

 

[Hibiclens]

I've noticed some pen boxes now say "for single patient use only." I take that to mean no breaking of the pack is permitted. Good enough for me.

 

[zelman]

I've noticed some pen boxes now say "for single patient use only." I take that to mean no breaking of the pack is permitted. Good enough for me.

I believe that is referring to the pens themselves.

 

[rxmommy7]

I believe that is referring to the pens themselves.

Then why is it written on the outside of the box and not on the pens? I assume it refers to the box. We do not break them.

 

[Deja]

nowhere I have worked at ever broke boxes... as for insurance, i thought they give you a little leeway on day supplies? just like eye drops, you can either use 15 drops per ml or 20 drops per ml

 

[zelman]

Then why is it written on the outside of the box and not on the pens? I assume it refers to the box. We do not break them.

There aren't articles like this about shared boxes: http://www.ismp.org/newsletters/acutecare/showarticle.aspx?id=41

 

[wagrxm2000]

Anyone who opens the box do you also open ointments?

 

[Lnsean]

I don't open insulin pen boxes---the boxes clearly labels that each box is for single patient use only..at least Sanofi does this. The manufacturers see that breaking boxes/diving up pens as an issue, patients are not receiving all of the included documentations and materials. I think it's accepted standard and insurances have yet to give me an issue on this, so why are you guys fighting over this? I know walgreens do not break open pen boxes; we've been doing this for years and no issues with audits.

 

[josh6718]

I don't open insulin pen boxes---the boxes clearly labels that each box is for single patient use only..at least Sanofi does this. The manufacturers see that breaking boxes/diving up pens as an issue, patients are not receiving all of the included documentations and materials. I think it's accepted standard and insurances have yet to give me an issue on this, so why are you guys fighting over this? I know walgreens do not break open pen boxes; we've been doing this for years and no issues with audits.

Realize this is an old thread, but I used to lean on the side not breaking boxes until recently. There are a few reasons-

1. Preventing waste of taxpayers money for prescriptions for that are billed to medicaid/medicare. There is no reason to fill an entire box of 5 pens every 30 days (ReadyFill or patient requested) for a person who is only using 5-15 units per day. I have yet to see an insurance company reject reimbursement for a claim when dispensing 3 mL/6mL/9mL pens etc.

2. With regard to the previous comment about 'opening boxes of ointments' - yes, for Aldara cream packets, or I otherwise use the smallest size tube available (i.e. 15 grams vs. 60 grams depending on the SIG). Insulin pens only are available in a one size package of 5 pens and would be no different than opening a box of Nuvaring that comes in a box of 3 vaginal rings.

3. The argument of 'for single patient use' was created by the FDA to warn patients of sharing pens themselves with family members or friends to prevent blood born pathogen spread. (FDA Requires New Warning Label on Insulin Pens) It does not mean the pharmacy should not break open a box.


4. Lastly (and probably least important but worth mentioning) is that there are some patients who prefer to have their prescriptions synced to fill on the same day, and this is near impossible to do if you are not opening boxes because the patient will soon acquire a stockpile of insulin.

 

[Lnsean]

Realize this is an old thread, but I used to lean on the side not breaking boxes until recently. There are a few reasons-

1. Preventing waste of taxpayers money for prescriptions for that are billed to medicaid/medicare. There is no reason to fill an entire box of 5 pens every 30 days (ReadyFill or patient requested) for a person who is only using 5-15 units per day. I have yet to see an insurance company reject reimbursement for a claim when dispensing 3 mL/6mL/9mL pens etc.

2. With regard to the previous comment about 'opening boxes of ointments' - yes, for Aldara cream packets, or I otherwise use the smallest size tube available (i.e. 15 grams vs. 60 grams depending on the SIG). Insulin pens only are available in a one size package of 5 pens and would be no different than opening a box of Nuvaring that comes in a box of 3 vaginal rings.

3. The argument of 'for single patient use' was created by the FDA to warn patients of sharing pens themselves with family members or friends to prevent blood born pathogen spread. (FDA Requires New Warning Label on Insulin Pens) It does not mean the pharmacy should not break open a box.


4. Lastly (and probably least important but worth mentioning) is that there are some patients who prefer to have their prescriptions synced to fill on the same day, and this is near impossible to do if you are not opening boxes because the patient will soon acquire a stockpile of insulin.

1. Each pen lasts 28 days depending on the type of insulin; so this point is moot. It comes down to the billing and the insurance plan. The patient is not gonna toss out the pens at the 30 day mark...he's going to use them until they're used up.

2. Very different. The manufacturer specific says it is for individual use only. That's your call if you want to split it. It is not the norm. I see this being done by independent pharmacies and sometimes walmart. I've never seen it done anywhere else.

3. Whatever the reasoning is...it is a legally approved label by the FDA. You don't get to interpret or extrapolate more than what is printed on the box. Whatever the reason is, Sanofi/Lilly does not want you to open the box AND when you open the box, the patient gets neither of these warnings from the manufacturer.

4. Sorry tough life huh? Things are never going to sync...and you should teach or educate your patients this so they don't expect it. Pretty standard practice.

most of your points are moot and that's why pharmacies don't split the boxes. Yes, it happens but it is definitely not standard of practice.

 

[josh6718]

2. Very different. The manufacturer specific says it is for individual use only. That's your call if you want to split it. It is not the norm. I see this being done by independent pharmacies and sometimes walmart. I've never seen it done anywhere else.

1. Each (in use) pen being only good for 28 days just further supports the reason to dispense a single pen for a patient using 11 units/day vs. dispensing an entire pack of 5 pens (assuming the ins max is 30 days). If the insurance pays for 90 days then great, dispense 4 pens for 90 days and tell the patient to store the ones not in use in the fridge.

2. Again, the "for individual use only label" is indicating that the pens themselves are not to be shared between individuals, not that the pharmacy must dispense the entire box itself (vs. drugs like Pradaxa or Truvada that are required be dispensed in their original container).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QS/1 | News: What Have We Learned about PBM Audits Recently?

EnvisionRxOptions is a PBM that expects pharmacies to split boxes of insulin pens. If the prescriber writes for one box of pens and the dosage is 36 units per day, the pharmacy could dispense three pens (9mls) as a 25DS. This is the only PBM known to Pharmacy Audit Assistance Service (PAAS) National that requires pharmacies to break a box of insulin pens. Florida Medicaid also expects pharmacies to break the box of pens.

With other plans, a complete box of pens is acceptable as long as you don’t refill the prescription early. In other words, if a box of pens should last 50 days and you refill the medication with the patient’s monthly medications, you will be cited for early refills and have to pay back the entire cost of the box of pens. Plans typically expect pharmacies to wait at least until 75-80 percent of the medication is used – in this case 38-40 days minimum.

 

[Old Timer]

Realize this is an old thread, but I used to lean on the side not breaking boxes until recently. There are a few reasons-

1. Preventing waste of taxpayers money for prescriptions for that are billed to medicaid/medicare. There is no reason to fill an entire box of 5 pens every 30 days (ReadyFill or patient requested) for a person who is only using 5-15 units per day. I have yet to see an insurance company reject reimbursement for a claim when dispensing 3 mL/6mL/9mL pens etc.

Yet, I have NEVER had a claim reversed on audit for dispensing one box when the plan max is 30 days. As for readyfill, you don't put them on readyfill.......

2. With regard to the previous comment about 'opening boxes of ointments' - yes, for Aldara cream packets, or I otherwise use the smallest size tube available (i.e. 15 grams vs. 60 grams depending on the SIG). Insulin pens only are available in a one size package of 5 pens and would be no different than opening a box of Nuvaring that comes in a box of 3 vaginal rings.

No, Nuvraing is a bad analogy, since each ring is individually wrapped and comes with instructions for use.

4. Lastly (and probably least important but worth mentioning) is that there are some patients who prefer to have their prescriptions synced to fill on the same day, and this is near impossible to do if you are not opening boxes because the patient will soon acquire a stockpile of insulin.

That is not good enough reason to open a box.

It makes as much sense to open a box of Insulin Pens as it does to squeeze some ointment out of a tube and into an ointment jar.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

1. Each (in use) pen being only good for 28 days just further supports the reason to dispense a single pen for a patient using 11 units/day vs. dispensing an entire pack of 5 pens (assuming the ins max is 30 days). If the insurance pays for 90 days then great, dispense 4 pens for 90 days and tell the patient to store the ones not in use in the fridge.

2. Again, the "for individual use only label" is indicating that the pens themselves are not to be shared between individuals , not that the pharmacy must dispense the entire box itself (vs. drugs like Pradaxa or Truvada that are required be dispensed in their original container).

Your logic is flawed.

Attempting to fix the problem of Waste in the Medicare system by how you bill Lantus is so incredibly naive. Are you a P1 or P2?

 

[josh6718]

Your logic is flawed.

Attempting to fix the problem of Waste in the Medicare system by how you bill Lantus is so incredibly naive. Are you a P1 or P2?

• Envision Rx, LDI and Medtrak require pharmacies to split boxes of insulin pens -http://www.ncpa.co/ce/Jacobs-NCPA-2017.pdf
  
  Perhaps you are fortunate and don't have or accept any of the above prescription plans. Our store HAS and we HAVE been charged back in the thousands of dollars for it. I will see if I can find the letter.
  

 

[Lnsean]

1. Each (in use) pen being only good for 28 days just further supports the reason to dispense a single pen for a patient using 11 units/day vs. dispensing an entire pack of 5 pens (assuming the ins max is 30 days). If the insurance pays for 90 days then great, dispense 4 pens for 90 days and tell the patient to store the ones not in use in the fridge.

2. Again, the "for individual use only label" is indicating that the pens themselves are not to be shared between individuals, not that the pharmacy must dispense the entire box itself (vs. drugs like Pradaxa or Truvada that are required be dispensed in their original container).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QS/1 | News: What Have We Learned about PBM Audits Recently?

EnvisionRxOptions is a PBM that expects pharmacies to split boxes of insulin pens. If the prescriber writes for one box of pens and the dosage is 36 units per day, the pharmacy could dispense three pens (9mls) as a 25DS. This is the only PBM known to Pharmacy Audit Assistance Service (PAAS) National that requires pharmacies to break a box of insulin pens. Florida Medicaid also expects pharmacies to break the box of pens.

With other plans, a complete box of pens is acceptable as long as you don’t refill the prescription early. In other words, if a box of pens should last 50 days and you refill the medication with the patient’s monthly medications, you will be cited for early refills and have to pay back the entire cost of the box of pens. Plans typically expect pharmacies to wait at least until 75-80 percent of the medication is used – in this case 38-40 days minimum.

Is it a conspiracy that everyone is telling you that you're wrong? Look, I can only explain it for you; I cannot understand it for you. From what you're saying, I don't even think you're a practicing pharmacist...probably still listening to lectures. lol

 

[josh6718]

Is it a conspiracy that everyone is telling you that you're wrong? Look, I can only explain it for you; I cannot understand it for you. From what you're saying, I don't even think you're a practicing pharmacist...probably still listening to lectures. lol

 

[Lnsean]

View attachment 225286

1. AGAIN, what is the waste here? The patient will just come back when they're out of it. They're not tossing it.

2. Your patient does not get the FDA warning if you keep the box. IF the label is meant for you, the pharmacist, then it means that you should not open the box. If the label is meant for the patient then you should not keep the box and just give them pens. Either scenario you should not open the box.

AGAIN, no one does this. You are the minority. You are practicing outside of standard practice. Do so at your own risk and judgement. That's all. Don't convince people other wise.

 

[josh6718]

AGAIN, no one does this. You are the minority. You are practicing outside of standard practice. Do so at your own risk and judgement. That's all.

Minority or not, if the state medicaid program and/or EnvisionRX PBM company requires them to be split for reimbursement, then I am not going to fill prescriptions that will be continually charged back to the pharmacy. I suppose you do not break boxes of enoxaparin syringes either?

 

[Lnsean]

Minority or not, if the state medicaid program and/or EnvisionRX PBM company requires them to be split for reimbursement, I am not going to fill prescriptions that will be continually charged back to the pharmacy. I suppose you do not break boxes of enoxaparin syringes either?

No one is requiring that and I've talked to auditors from Horizon/Aetna/Amerigroup/UNH. They're all aware of the stock size for insulin pens. Stop making sht up. Enoxaparin does not have any wording on it that says "for individual use only" and it is standard of practice to open enoxaparin boxes. Also, enoxaparin syringes are single use. It is not standard of practice to open insulin boxes.

 

[josh6718]

No one is requiring that and I've talked to auditors from Horizon/Aetna/Amerigroup/UNH. They're all aware of the stock size for insulin pens. Stop making sht up. Enoxaparin does not have any wording on it that says "for individual use only" and it is standard of practice to open enoxaparin boxes. It is not standard of practice to open insulin boxes.

Are you physically incapable of reading? Not one of those PBM's you listed were ones I claimed required them to be opened for reimbursement. So for the 3rd time, Envision Rx, LDI and Medtrak REQUIRE insulin boxes/pens to be split for correct day supply billing. The PENS THEMSELVES have the warning on them "for single patient use"- WITH or WITHOUT the box.

 

[Lnsean]

Are you physically incapable of reading? Not one of those PBM's you listed were ones I claimed required them to be opened for reimbursement. So for the 3rd time, Envision Rx, LDI and Medtrak REQUIRE insulin boxes/pens to be split for correct day supply billing. The PENS THEMSELVES have the warning on them "for individual use"- WITH or WITHOUT the box.
View attachment 225288

LMAO. You're still not dispensing the approved warning label on the box that is meant for the patient. Look, you do you okay? Everyone else will continue to dispense as stock size. It's your license...not mine.

 

[josh6718]

LMAO. You're still not dispensing the approved warning label on the box that is meant for the patient. Look, you do you okay? Everyone else will continue to dispense as stock size. It's your license...not mine.

 

[Lnsean]

View attachment 225289

Again, continue to do things outside of standard practice. It's your license and judgement. I've said it all along. You;re in the minority. And no, ENVISION does not do charge backs on stock size insulin...I've had many audits from them in the past. As a chain, walgreens does not break insulin boxes and I have never seen one chargeback.

 

[wagrxm2000]

I highly doubt Walgreens would just accept losing money every time in Florida when they get audited by Medicaid. Two years after my original post and we still can't open the boxes here.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

1. AGAIN, what is the waste here? The patient will just come back when they're out of it. They're not tossing it.

2. Your patient does not get the FDA warning if you keep the box. IF the label is meant for you, the pharmacist, then it means that you should not open the box. If the label is meant for the patient then you should not keep the box and just give them pens. Either scenario you should not open the box.

AGAIN, no one does this. You are the minority. You are practicing outside of standard practice. Do so at your own risk and judgement. That's all. Don't convince people other wise.

This.

Giving the patient MORE than they're paying for is the opposite of Waste.
It decreases the predatory profits of insulins by dropping their sales.

Josh needs to take the L

 

[josh6718]

This.

Giving the patient MORE than they're paying for is the opposite of Waste.
It decreases the predatory profits of insulins by dropping their sales.

Josh needs to take the L

If that's the case lets just dispense all drugs in their original containers. Genius way to reduce waste... Doctor wrote for an RX for metformin? Just slap a label on the 500 count bottle, wouldn't want to break open a bottle with all the label warnings on it.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

If that's the case lets just dispense all drugs in their original containers. Genius way to reduce waste...

Define waste.

Take the L.

 

[josh6718]

Define waste

Overutilization of services or other practices that, directly or indirectly, result in unnecessary costs to the health care system.


(https://www.cms.gov/Medicare-Medica...rmacy-selfaudit-booklet4-billing-practice.pdf)

Ensure staff members are able to correctly calculate a day’s supply for prescriptions.
"Reduce the quantity dispensed to correspond to a number of days equal to or less than the plan-imposed maximum if the days’ supply calculated by dividing the quantity dispensed by the number of doses per day exceeds the plan-imposed maximum allowable days’ supply.

Patient motives for stockpiling vary from fear of drug shortages or unexpected changes in prescription drug benefits to accumulation of drugs for the purpose of diversion or abuse.[21] Patients who stockpile may seek prescriptions from multiple prescribers, and unnecessarily accumulating drugs contributes to waste and abuse in the health care system.

 

[Lnsean]

Overutilization of services or other practices that, directly or indirectly, result in unnecessary costs to the health care system.


(https://www.cms.gov/Medicare-Medica...rmacy-selfaudit-booklet4-billing-practice.pdf)

Ensure staff members are able to correctly calculate a day’s supply for prescriptions.
"Reduce the quantity dispensed to correspond to a number of days equal to or less than the plan-imposed maximum if the days’ supply calculated by dividing the quantity dispensed by the number of doses per day exceeds the plan-imposed maximum allowable days’ supply.

Patient motives for stockpiling vary from fear of drug shortages or unexpected changes in prescription drug benefits to accumulation of drugs for the purpose of diversion or abuse.[21] Patients who stockpile may seek prescriptions from multiple prescribers, and unnecessarily accumulating drugs contributes to waste and abuse in the health care system.

The most dangerous people are the ones that can't admit they're wrong. Take the L and move on. You revisited a 2 year old topic with wrong assumptions and wrong facts. This is the same guy that would be sitting there counting out individual lancets to make sure it's 90 and not 100.

 

[josh6718]

The most dangerous people are the ones that can't admit they're wrong. Take the L and move on. You revisited a 2 year old topic with wrong assumptions and wrong facts. This is the same guy that would be sitting there counting out individual lancets to make sure it's 90 and not 100.

Or the same guy that doesn't think twice about opening a box of lovenox syringes but is terrified of opening insulin pens because the box contains "a label" thats also imprinted on the pens and believes would jeopardize his pharmacist license if he opened said sacred box.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Overutilization of services or other practices that, directly or indirectly, result in unnecessary costs to the health care system.
(https://www.cms.gov/Medicare-Medica...rmacy-selfaudit-booklet4-billing-practice.pdf)
Ensure staff members are able to correctly calculate a day’s supply for prescriptions.
"Reduce the quantity dispensed to correspond to a number of days equal to or less than the plan-imposed maximum if the days’ supply calculated by dividing the quantity dispensed by the number of doses per day exceeds the plan-imposed maximum allowable days’ supply.
Patient motives for stockpiling vary from fear of drug shortages or unexpected changes in prescription drug benefits to accumulation of drugs for the purpose of diversion or abuse.[21] Patients who stockpile may seek prescriptions from multiple prescribers, and unnecessarily accumulating drugs contributes to waste and abuse in the health care system.

Would you agree that CMS has rigorous protocols and procedures in place to prevent FW&A?

What do you think happens when a patient has a prescription for Lantus 35 units QD and they limit each Rx to 34 days supply?

SOP for all major retail pharmacies is to call and obtain a verbal override.

Why would CMS specifically require them to call and get an override?

 

[wagrxm2000]

Instead of complaining here why don't you call corporate and tell them the system is wrong for not letting you break a box?

 

[josh6718]

Instead of complaining here why don't you call corporate and tell them the system is wrong for not letting you break a box?

CVS's system already allows this - our district/region has been doing this for years already. The label lists the qty in ml followed by (# of pens).

 

[Lnsean]

Or the same guy that doesn't think twice about opening a box of lovenox syringes but is terrified of opening insulin pens because the box contains "a label" thats also imprinted on the pens and believes would jeopardize his pharmacist license if he opened said sacred box.

ummm cuz lovenox syringes are individually wrapped and is single use only? Insulin pens are not....duh...this is common sense.

 

[Lnsean]

CVS's system already allows this - our district/region has been doing this for years already. The label lists the qty in ml followed by (# of pens).

correction...only you are doing it. No one else.

 

[wagrxm2000]

CVS's system already allows this - our district/region has been doing this for years already. The label lists the qty in ml followed by (# of pens).

So do you do it?

If so what's the point of being here?

If not, no one here cared anyways.

Thread over.

 

[josh6718]

ummm cuz lovenox syringes are individually wrapped and is single use only? Insulin pens are not....duh...this is common sense.

Your arguments again continue to make zero sense. What difference does it make whether they are individually sealed. Do you only ever dispense drugs in unit dose packing?

 

[Lnsean]

Your arguments again continue to make zero sense. What difference does it make whether they are individually sealed. Do you only ever dispense drugs in unit dose packing?

Because I know for sure they weren't tampered with. That's on me. If you're comfortable with having opened pens laying around then that's on you. Continue doing what you are doing. Walgreens doesn't break boxes, Rite Aid doesn't break boxes, every pharmacist I know do not break boxes. You continue to do you. There's no reason to come on here and tell lies and make up sht.

 

[josh6718]

correction...only you are doing it. No one else.

Again, I cannot argue with this level of stupidity.

 

[Lnsean]

Again, I cannot argue with this level of stupidity.

Everyone is wrong then and you're the only one that's right...lmao. I am not here to stop you from breaking insulin boxes...i couldn't care less. I'm here to stop you from misinforming everyone.

 

[josh6718]

Everyone is wrong then and you're the only one that's right...lmao. I am not here to stop you from breaking insulin boxes...i couldn't care less. I'm here to stop you from misinforming everyone.

Phew, that's a relief.

 

[Lnsean]

Phew, that's a relief.

thank you for taking the L like you should.

 

[josh6718]

thank you for taking the L like you should.

Anything to stop your whining and butt hurt about everything being tampered with.

 

[Lnsean]

Anything to stop your whining and butt hurt about everything being tampered with.

Why would I be butt hurt...everyone is on my side here. You stand alone. lol. Not even one person defended you. It's when you start making personal attacks that you should realize that you've lost the argument on facts. Don't get emotional or make it personal dude. It's just an online forum.

 

[josh6718]

Why would I be butt hurt...everyone is on my side here. You stand alone. lol. Not even one person defended you. It's when you start making personal attacks that you should realize that you've lost the argument on facts. Don't get emotional or make it personal dude. It's just an online forum.

Cool story.