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bhoover

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"What part of the DO philosophy do you agree or dissagree with the most....and why?"

(it's for a paper I'm doing)
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"Only fool fight man with Brisk?!"
-Bruce Lee
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I agree most with how the osteopathic philosophy takes into account all parts of the body as working together to make a whole person. It is amazing how many pieces it takes working separately yet together to make the amazing thing we call the human body. That was the whole reason I wanted to go into medicine in the first place and I think the DO philosophy really has a grip on the miracle of the human body. Just a thought
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IN a poll of 230,000 MDs, amazingly, not a single one of them realized that the body was made up of connected organs that operated as a unit....One physician actually beat himself over the head when told this...then stopped because for some reason it hurt.
 
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it's pathetic.... isn't it?

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"Only fool fight man with Brisk?!"
-Bruce Lee
 
Actually, the Arizona Medical School of Health Sciences has a better grip of approaching the human body as a whole by teaching integrative medicine. This surpasses some of the osteopathic schools teachings. I would like to see the osteopathic schools start incorporating integrative medicine into their curriculums, then their philosophy would truly be one of an interconnected web of processes.
 
Hey Adrian, did the AOA do that poll?
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Your sarcasm goes unappreciated me thinks.

[This message has been edited by UHS03 (edited 06-04-2000).]
 
Osteopaths also understand that the body heals itself, if a child has the flu, most mothers run to a doctor to get an antibiotic, but what is so terrible about letting the child's natural immune system run it's course and fight the infection? No child needs a 10 day course of Amoxicillin for the sniffles. Let the body heal itself, it is an amazing instrument! Sorry to spout, but I have worked in a Pharmacy for 6 years and I have seen 4 year olds that have been on more antibiotics than a geriatric pneumonia patient. I also have to say that it is the MD's in my area that throw an antibiotic at the mother to shut her up, rather than explain how the body will take care of itself, it's not Polio, it's a common cold! The DO's seem to write the fewest RX's. Sorry to make a blanket generalization, this is just what I have observed in Southern Oregon for the past several years.
 
Read OSLER, MD regarding the body healing itself. This isn't a DO exclusive concept, and if your familiar with osler you'll realize this concept has been part of medical education in the MD community for years.

The MD community is the community most responsible for CALLING FOR RESPONSIBLE USE OF ANTIBIOTICS. I haven't seen a ton of articles from DOs on this matter, but EVERY SINGLE ISSUE OF EVERY SINGLE MEDICAL JOURNAL contains a blurb somewhere about how to decide when to JUDICIOUSLY use antibiotics for some type of presenting illness. (this is only a slight exaggeration as you will find out when you read these journals)

Using antibiotics usage/misusage as an argument for osteopathy is a non issue:
1. DOs use antibiotics (A HELL OF A LOT)
2. Antibiotics SAVE lives
3. In some cases, It is often difficult to determine whether a patient needs antibiotics
4. NOT giving antibiotics in such cases can be fatal (or can increase morbidity)
5. Sarcasm alert for the appreciative: ANTIBIOTICS WORK SYSTEMICALLY.
6. There is VIRTUALLY NO DIFFERENCE IN HOW DO and MD physicians are trained to use antibiotics. Are there? I am not aware of ANY do specific training protocols regarding antibiotic use. certainly in my four years of DO school I never once saw an instance of a DO specific antibiotic training protocol.
7. THEREFORE, the antibiotic issue isn't germaine.
 
I dont think this was a question of MD's vs. DO's and the differences in their philosophies, so lets try and stick to some valuable information on the DO philosophy- its strengths and weaknesses. The DO philosophy is not perfect and because I agree with the integration of all parts of the body does not say all MD schools ignore this style of teaching medicine today. It happens to be however original osteopathic thinking and since asked what we agree and disagree with the DO philosophy, that is what I like the most. DO's cannot be said to prescribe less or more, although I am sure in some parts of the country one may be more prevalent than the other, but my brother developed antibiotic associated colitis (meds prescribed by a DO). But that's a whole issue in itself- maybe a post on antibiotic overuse???
 
I have to disagree with the DO philosophy toward marketing (which at times seems non-existent). I don't think they do enough to make people (especially pre-meds) aware of their identity.
 
the idea that OSTEOPATHS invented the concept that the body is a unit and works independently is laughable on the one hand, pathetic though really, when considering so many DO PROSPECTS and students state this when it is demonstrable nonsense....even GALEN, devil that he was, Hippocrates, the aforementioned Osler, Lord Harvey...to name a few recognized clearly that the thigh bone is directly related to the hip bone and on up to the scalp... The whole discovery of Harvey of the circulatory system INHERENTLY demonstrates his inate understanding that the body is a unit...A legitimate discussion requires a slight bit of intellectual honesty and/or education...the profession would get a lot farther if people would stop spouting such uneducated nonsense and actually READ some of the great physicians writings starting with Semmelwies or Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr...these folk PREDATE any wetdreams that Still's granddaddy ever contemplated. HIPPOCRATES certainly recognized the body as a unit and also taught that the body inherently heals itself whenever it is capable of doing so....lets start by being brutally honest....`its a concept but o so underutilized.

Preventative medicine is not an osteopathic novelty either...again read your ancients....i know its not part of the curricula, but even the Toran recognizes that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of gibberish.
 
I see. I'm loving the insightful comments that are being tossed around here.

Please, Keep them coming!!!

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"Only fool fight man with Brisk?!"
-Bruce Lee
 
Amen Adrian! Finally someone is putting into words what I have felt since starting school. It bugs the hell out of me that the AOA propaganda machine wants everyone to believe that osteopaths are the only physicians that care about the "whole patient".
 
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"propaganda only works if we burn the books first"
-----one of them nazis...

in other words, it doesn't make sense to lie openly about your own professions "unique lucidity" (my term for lack of a better one) when said lucidity is DEMONSTRABLY not unique or original to said profession.
enuff saids.

"now we wait"
--hopi medicine man

"you'd lose your head if it wasn't integrally attached and associated with all other organ systems and working interdependently with them"
--ascribed to A T Still speaking with his son

"no one ever told me that before"
-A T Stills son, reliving the moment.

"Doctor say you gonna die"
--Tonto to the lone ranger after a chance encounter with a rattlesnake while urinating.

 
I couldn't agree with you 2 any more if it were physically possible.

------------------
"Only fool fight man with Brisk?!"
-Bruce Lee
 
Originally posted by drusso:

What separates osteopaths from M.D.s may be the route they take to their diagnoses
Click to expand...


Please go on and explain, in your oppinion, what this means.


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"Only fool fight man with Brisk?!"
-Bruce Lee
 
I once went to a doctor. I sat in the waiting room for some time before he came in. He apologized to me, he showed a concern for my injury, and he wished he could do more.

NEEDLESS to say I was extremely surprised, when I found out he was an MD. I would have sworn he was a DO, because of his genuine concern for his patient.

So different from most MDs, very refreshing.
 
now why is that?

------------------
"Only fool fight man with Brisk?!"
-Bruce Lee
 
I had NEVER heard about osteopathy until at age 31 i began to apply to medical schools...in 31 years, I never had a bad experience with ANY of the 20 or so doctors I remember visiting...they showed concern, they took good historys...during my physical exams they showed a knowledge of the fact that my hand was attached to my wrist and that my body worked as a unit, anyway, not to belabor the point, but they were ALL MDS, and not only that, having now graduated from medical school and having discussed medical education with many mds, dos, and md and do students, i assure you there is NO difference in the way students are taught at these schools....There is a greater variation WITHIN the md schools and WITHIN the different DO schools than there is between the two. In other words, except for the occasional cult type of class you will run across, physical diagnosis and history taking (which is 99.9% of how you are going to do medicine) is taught 99.91% identically.
Now we can get anecdotal all day long, but until you are ready to talk about reality, and not your preconcieved BIASES, you're going to completely miss that the King aint wearing any clothes.
 
I have to disagree in that MDs and DOs are taught exactly the same. That may be so in the cases you have seen, however I know the osteopathic school I plan on attending requires Patient relation classes, whereas the MD school at the same university does not. Not saying that one is better- just saying there are some different classes between the two- not to mention osteopathic manipulation education which MDs do not learn.
 
This is another anecdote which isnt representative of the DO vs MD education process at all. You are using ONE class at ONE institution as a representation of the entire education processes between ALL DO institutions as Constrasted with ALL MD classes...Having a separate class for patient relations doesn't even qualify as an objective difference, since it would be no problem to incorporate the identical information into ANY clinical coursework.
Eg: the prof while explaining how to elicit a history, also gives you insight into how to approach a girl at menarche in your office for a physical exam...you learn patient relations from a teacher, not a designated set of words typed on a transcript.
Besides, even granting your logic, i know for a fact that some MD schools do have patient relations course (even though HAVING such a course by itself means nothing)
 
"Shoe" make an excellant point.

------------------
"Only fool fight man with Brisk?!"
-Bruce Lee
 
Obviously you did not read what I said- I stated that this may not be true wherever you are, but it is true here and the patient relation classes may be easy to incorporate into other classes, however it isn't. I was just making the point that this is what contributes to the widespread view of the differences in Osteopathy- I am not saying they are always correct. There is because of some schools having separate and different classes, a view that is widespread about the differences between osteopathy and allopathy. Whether these differences are seen once a doctor is in practice is totally dependant on the physician and I DONT think one physician is better educated than another based on MD or DO credentials. Nice of you to take things out of context though...
 
i read what you said: more than that i understand what your GOAL of posting was...you were using a one specific instance which had no relevance to paint what i believe to be an inaccurate picture regarding the entire fields of DO and MD.

Lets analyze:
1. you state: you DISAGREE that MD and DOs are trained the same.
as the leading sentence in the paragraph, english grammar teaches us that this is the THRUST of your point.
2. you juxtapose where i am ( a DO graduate who has been exposed to DOs from many schools and from MDs from many schools) with ONE place-your prospective school which is either michigan state or new jersey. But you don't recognize that my research isn't limited to the only school i attended, rather you ignored my point that I DIDNT limit my statements to a single school.
3. You used a class title which more likely than not is a result of a grant writing rather than a legitimate course to portray that where you are there are differences between md and do training vis a vis patient relations
4. you try to add power to your paragraph by pointing out that OMT is also a difference between the two. In FACT, it is this sentence that i agree with. OMT is the ONLY difference between training at DO and MD schools.

So, you see, i had read your post, i simply found it lacking any real legitimate argument for there being a difference between DO and MD schools regarding patient relations training. That was the original topic, so that was the one i was couching my comments around.
 
Adrian,

Shouldn't you be at the Star Trek convention this week?
 
hmmm . . .

------------------
"Only fool fight man with Brisk?!"
-Bruce Lee
 
LOL, it took a second....Come feel the awesome power of my vulcanized rubber mindmeld
 
Adrian, It must be super to have graduated from school and have ALL THE TIME THAT YOU DO to completely deconstruct every post. Please correct me if I am wrong (I know you will), but I think the whole point of posting replies to topics is to give the topic poster some ideas about his/her subject, similar to brainstorming.
1) DO's and MD's are trained differently.
2) Response to specific situations/and or singular schools is all most people have. Most 31 year olds don't doctor-hop or have the luxury to have attended several schools enough to be familiar with the curriculum on the level that you are.
3.This is an OSTEOPATHIC BOUND page, not a "I have already graduated and know far more than you mere mortals" page. Take a chance Adrian and be a small fish in a big pond. You will be with your own kind, not people who are still learning.
4.KINDNESS. My father gave me the greatest advice in the world, "Try not to hurt other people's feelings." It sounds trite, but kindness and respect is one of the greatest gifts we can bestow upon others.
Adrian, please forgive my nasty-spirited post, but if people are brave enough to put their thoughts out there and be very vulnerable to criticism, can't you be brave enough to encourage them? Nurture others you will be a better person for it. Good luck to you in all that you do.
 
in response to baby:
1. There isn't a difference, so stop spreading misinformation. OR, prove there is a difference instead of just saying there is.

2. Do your homework a bit better before you go to your doctor, you seem to be arguing that most 31 year olds aren't intelligent enough to shop around... If that's the case then that is THEIR problem. Before you stick your finger in my ass, i think it is common sense for me to make sure you are qualified...you obviously dont care who sticks fingers up your ass?

3. If you learn to read, you would realize i have never attacked someone based on where they are in training, i attack their logic, now in your case that is easy since there doesnt appear to be any.

4. your dad taught you what?
 
Adrian,
There isn't a difference between MD'S & DO's?????If you know of a school that teaches MD's manipulation please enlighten the rest of us, That is a big difference between the two!
You stated earlier that you have seen over 20 doctors in your 31 years. That is not shopping around.Either you are a doctor hopper (hmmmm...) or a hypochondriac.You could not always have been the expert that you are now. What 12 year old says"Doc, I don't agree with your assesment that I have the flu, I'm getting a second opinion. Mom, Dad, spring for another office visit, this one's not qualified". Doubtful, my friend. Ask around, that's a lot of doctor visits.
You are not appearing to attack anyone's logic, just their ideas because they don't agree with yours. Freud believed that people who put down others did so in order to elevate themselves. Detect a pattern in all of your numerous posts?
You seem very intelligent, but I fear for your future practice. If you berate your patients the same way you post tirades against your fellow students, your patients will most definitely "shop around".
Vaya con dios.
 
So, anyone who sees over 20 doctors by age 31 is a doctor hopper? what kind of logic is this? you make these broad generalizing statements which are pure nonsense....
for many 31 year olds, there are a variety of reasons to have seen many physicians, not just your own biased ones
lets see how nonsensical this logic is.
Here is a partial list of physicians i have seen:
1. hurt lower back in high school, saw physician, then saw another physician due to moving to another state. (florida to ohio)
2. Threw out shoulder in wrestling, saw physician, then saw orthopedist and neurologist due to parathesias in arm.
3. joined Military at age 17, saw physician for physical examination, which was very thorough.
4. Reinjured shoulder in boot camp, placed in rehab program worked with physician.
5. Went to aircrewman's school, worked with 2 flight surgeons as part of Training petty officer position.
NOTE: i am at this point only 19 years of age and had already been exposed from age 16 to age 19 to NINE physicians in three years. I havent even got to the part where i had family members sick and dying who i had to take to the doctors regularly for various reasons. So before you assert your global statements with all their naive arrogance, please stop and realize that just because YOU may be a healthy little girl doesnt mean that many people do not have PLENTY of exposures to physicians. I will give you some insight, once you get into your training hospital, you will realize that in ONE three day visit to the hospital via the ER you may be exposed to Four or FIve physicians. NOw if you are sick once and your mommy is sick once, you have been exposed to ten physicians right there...DO YOU GET THE PICTURE YET? Tell a terminal cancer patients family members that they are just DOCTOR shopping....get a reality check...SOON.

THE original topic was the difference between MD and DO in patient relations training, and THAT is where the argument stands that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. arguing that PATIENT manipulation is a difference in training isn't relevant because THAT has already been accepted by me AS THE ONLY difference and NO ONE is even debating that. besides less than ten percent of osteopathic physicians continue to use manipulation once out of school, so......back to there being no difference again.

As for arguing points with people who disagree with me? forgive me for being a bit confused but are you suggesting that I sit here and argue points with people i agree with?
I debate with people i disagree with, by deconstructing the logic of their argument and allowing them the same opportunity,
YOU seem to be the only person who allows their emotions to get all in a bundle when someone attacks your logic...you automatically assume that it is a personal attack, when in fact it is definitively IMPERSONAL as it only speaks to the person's statement and never about the person. YOU are the only person thus far on this thread to make a personal attack if you had bothered to notice. Your hypocrisy is that through malice and personal attacks, you accuse me of a lack of kindness and of attacking people....that logic is laughable.
 
Adrian- grow up and agree to disagree with everybody on this issue- you have your opinions, others have theirs, but this does happen to be a PREMED chat room so if you are going to rip peoples' opinions apart because you feel you have more experience on the issue, why bother? We are merely bringing up our ideas and opinions, however lacking logic you believe them to be. Try being a little nicer when you go out of your way to bash somebody's statement. The attitude is getting old. If you are a practicing physician with the immense experience you say you have, you should know that not everyone is the same in this world, and unless you want to grow old lonely with a cat who is the only one who will love you, I would suggest putting on a smile and a nicer attitude, even if you have to put on a front to carry it off...
 
Well, I for one don't visit here for the sugar coated or idealistic opinions. If I wanted warm fuzzies I'd be hanging out on the Delphi love forum.

One reason I do come here is because this forum is frequented by a lot of non-premeds who have more experience than I do. I value their opinions. If I'm holding on to an illogical view of things I would rather someone point that out than allow me to go down a bad road and I don't particularly care if they say it sweetly or not. In fact, I appreciate the directness because there is less for me to interpret.

Seems odd to me that someone would post things only wanting positive feedback but no constructive criticism. Why post at all if all you seek is validation that your view of the world is correct?

Not to mention that if someone were "not nice" to me on an anonymous internet forum I don't think it would have a huge impact on my self esteem or future posting courage.

As for YOUR personal attacks, Shoe is obviously a big boy and can speak for himself, but from my experience, he's been one of the stronger advocates at SDN at keeping the personal attacks off this board and debate on the issues as the focus.

To this point on this thread he's been described as an immature hypochondriac with a superiority complex not fit to treat patients who will end up alone with cats unless he starts faking that he has emotions. But he's barely even responded to this unprofessional demeaning abuse.

I don't know. I don't see Adrianshoe as the most attitudinally challenged person here.

mj

[This message has been edited by mj (edited 06-12-2000).]
 
Adrian- You wrote the following statements:

?you assert your global statements with all their naive arrogance?
?YOU may be a healthy little girl ?
?and your mommy is sick once?
?get a reality check?

You claim only to attack arguments and that this is definitively impersonal. But then you write statements that are condescending, insulting, and which imply that you have a greater understanding of the concepts being discussed. It is clear to me that the above statements ARE intended to be personal attacks on the person involved. You could easily have made the points that these statements were extracted from without the insult, but you chose not to.

I, too, have noticed a hostility in many of your posts and wonder why you argue you opinions with aggression and insult. You seem to be well informed about many topics. Why not share your knowledge with kindness rather than wielding it like a sword?
 
MJ- I agree completely that we should all be free to share opposing positions and constructive criticism. It seems to me, though, that you are confusing the content of WHAT is shared with the WAY in which that content is shared. One can express an opposing point of view with respect and kindness without harming the point he is making. What I take exception to is the peppering of insult and condescention that accompanies many opposing viewpoints on this board.
 
MJ- The last posting sort of sums it up- I for one do not post hoping everyone will agree with everything I say- Wake up- we are not on Fantasy Island. You fail to see that we were trying to get across that there is a difference between Constructive Criticism and being RUDE! When I argued the point with Adrian I admitted my post was based strictly on my experiences- therefore no need to start bashing because my experiences have showed me a difference in opinion from Adrian. Disagreeing on a topic can shed new light on things for others and often be educational- it shouldn't be how stupid can I make another person feel in order to get my point across. Every hear of tact? I don't think I was "going down a bad road" with my opinions and my thoughts and baby's thoughts did not merit nastiness. If you really feel Adrian is not the only attitude challenged person I agree with you- you seem to be right there with him
smile.gif
 
Dlbruch ?

I couldn?t agree with you more. I?m just as sick of the insults, having had several thrown my way for no good reason. In the last month I?ve been called both and ass and a liar and someone was even sending me hate mail for a while because of my postings in the gay/lesbian and NP threads.

That isn?t the opinion of babytrey99 and do1day however. They only seem to want to hear from people who agree with them.

I would point out, though, that Adrianshoe didn?t throw any of the mud back until he had been dished a fairly good plate. Until babytreys second bashing of him he was respectful, logical and focused on the issue. Then he is called a hypochondriac who isn?t fit to treat patients. Instead of ?turning the other cheek? he responded with what you posted, an ?eye for an eye? (mild in my opinion to what he had been dished).

If people don?t want mud thrown back, they shouldn?t throw any! Not that that makes it OK, but I?m sick of getting attacked because someone doesn?t like that they were disagreed with, because I pointed out that something didn?t make sense. If people are going to act like children maybe they should be scolded like children.

Maybe Adrianshoe is just finally as fed up as I am with being attacked for being logical.

Condescending? I don?t know. I tend to write with a sharp concise tone, too, but it?s not meant to be condescending. It?s just my style. Post which don?t have personal insults in them but merely present what I PERCEIVE to be a harsh tone I tend to give the benefit of the doubt because that is what I would want.

I don?t think I?m as confused as I am tired of people like babytrey and do1day.

mj
 
do1day,

What a hypocrit! How can you advocate niceness through your nastiness toward me? I didn't say anything offensive to you. Your post to me was uncalled for and a grand example of your hipocricy!

I saw perfectly well what you were trying to do. I just didn't agree with it. You didn't like that you were out logiced so you attacked on a personal level and then tried to turn around and accuse someone else of the same thing. You started out a reply to a fairly benign criticism to your overgeneralization with "obviously you didn't read" and expected everyone to jump up and clap. When you got EXACTLY what you dished out you cried fowl.

Why don't you try leading by example for a change! If you don't want rudeness, stop being rude!

[This message has been edited by mj (edited 06-12-2000).]
 
the wheatfarmer is here and I am #1.

The pacers will beat the Lakers, the COMLEX will be absorbed by the superior USMLE, cranial sacral manipulation will never be proven, hard-core DO's will continue to isolate themselves from the rest of the medical community, Microsoft will be split, and the HIV crisis in Africa will continue to be ignored for the sake of more important issues like "DO's treat more than just symptoms" UNITY campaign.

Rock on
the wheatfarmer has spoken
 
Originally posted by DO1DAY:
Adrian- grow up and agree to disagree with everybody on this issue- you have your opinions, others have theirs, but this does happen to be a PREMED chat room so if you are going to rip peoples' opinions apart because you feel you have more experience on the issue, why bother?
1.
YOU *****- the entire reason many people post here is to get exposed to people with a variety of experiences...WHY ELSE would you see all the QUESTIONS being asked.
-as for this being the PREMED chat room, 1. this isnt a chat room, its a thread of a forum. 2. It is open to all so that premeds can get opinions from other people not just premeds who may give them misinformation (or not). Presenting the truth is part of why i rip apart some folks opinions, I would hope they appreciate that i dont JUST disagree, but am willing to share the exact reasoning WHY i disagree...perhaps you simply dont know WHY you say the things you do and that is WHY you aren't able to articulate these things and that is why you feel so attacked when other people do?


We are merely bringing up our ideas and opinions, however lacking logic you believe them to be. Try being a little nicer when you go out of your way to bash somebody's statement. The attitude is getting old.
2.

It may be getting old to you, but what is your relevance? you can always start your own chat room/forum and be the king, until then what is your point? when your poor little statement gets bashed, do you bleed? does your eyes pop out....why is attacking a statement such a devastating blow to your self esteem


If you are a practicing physician with the immense experience you say you have,

3. This is an example of what a dishonest person like yourself perfers in the way of logic...you dont attack the points, you attack the person...with LIES...I never once said i have immense experience or that i was a practicing physician..you made that up simply to try to make your position stronger...this is intellectual dishonesty at its worst...

you should know that not everyone is the same in this world, and unless you want to grow old lonely with a cat who is the only one who will love you, I would suggest putting on a smile and a nicer attitude, even if you have to put on a front to carry it off...
Click to expand...

4. your clairvoyance astounds me, that fact that you can tell when someone is smiling and about their outlook on life by the fact that they disagree vehemently with you regarding patient relations and the DO/MD debate is truly amazing...and i hate cats....except barbecued.

 
Originally posted by dlbruch:
Adrian- You wrote the following statements:

?you assert your global statements with all their naive arrogance?
?YOU may be a healthy little girl ?
?and your mommy is sick once?
?get a reality check?

You claim only to attack arguments and that this is definitively impersonal. But then you write statements that are condescending, insulting, and which imply that you have a greater understanding of the concepts being discussed. It is clear to me that the above statements ARE intended to be personal attacks on the person involved. You could easily have made the points that these statements were extracted from without the insult, but you chose not to.

I, too, have noticed a hostility in many of your posts and wonder why you argue you opinions with aggression and insult. You seem to be well informed about many topics. Why not share your knowledge with kindness rather than wielding it like a sword?
Click to expand...

if you read closer you will notice that these comments are RESPONSES to personal attacks...thats the point, these hypocrites attack anyone and everyone that disagrees with them and then they get upset when someone attacks their OPINIONS.
They spread lies and misinformation without caring or concern and without research, then they get upset when they are corrected on it...the kindest thing to do to a person with a tumor is often to cut it out..these cancerous lazy undeveloped opinions need to be excised, from there maybe deeper, researched HONEST opinions will develop.
 
Actually, Adrain, I was well aware that your comments were responses to a personal attack on you. Honestly, who shoved who first is a silly argument- it doesn?t hold up on the grade-school playground and certainly doesn?t work here.

You seem to trying to take the high road with the following statements:

?YOU seem to be the only person who allows their emotions to get all in a bundle when someone attacks your logic...you automatically assume that it is a personal attack, when in fact it is definitively IMPERSONAL as it only speaks to the person's statement and never about the person. YOU are the only person thus far on this thread to make a personal attack if you had bothered to notice. Your hypocrisy is that through malice and personal attacks, you accuse me of a lack of kindness and of attacking people....that logic is laughable.?

Unfortunately, you then follow this with a response that has elements of much of what you are speaking out against. Is that not hypocrisy?

I agree that the tumors need to be excised, but a surgeon would use a scalpel and would proceed with care, mindful not to do more damage in the process. You seem to excise tumors with a kitchen knife, happy to get the tumor and caring little about the damage left behind. Again, you seem to have much to share on this board, why not stick to that high road you once valued rather than taking a swing at anyone who calls you a name?
 
Dlbruch- Amen to your response! I couldn't agree with you more!!
 
must really suck not to have a legitimate TOPIC to discuss, huh?
 
Wheatfarmer...no way the pacers win...glenn rice is still hiding under the radar somewhere....i guarantee he will score 30 in game four or five...anyone who remembers the michigan national championship KNOWS whats about to happen.


Dlbruch....If you really believe the garbage you are espousing, WHY are you not speaking out equally to all parties....this is nonsensical horsecrap, of course it matters who initiates a personal attack first, the kindergarten and bible school teachers were full of **** to tell us otherwise, pacifism (which is stupid) is different than selfdefense (which isnt)......it matters ESPECIALLY if that IDIOT includes a comment like "MY DADDY SAYS REMEMBER TO BE KIND" while they are initiating a personal attack...can you rationalize this ******* behavior for me? or are you willing to ignore such *****ic posts simply because they are by people who agree with your position on the topics?
what else am i to infer? you didnt step up right away and denounce their attacks...you simply get offended when I come back at them? hmmmmm.
your moral superiority would play a lot better if you were a bit more proactive.

Believe me, it doesnt hurt my feelingsto have such stupidity thrown my way, i love having a good creative insult thrown my way, what hurts my feelings is that these same illiterate lunatics may someday be treating patients.
 
Man I love these forums!!!!
 
Glenn Rice has already caused a bit of controversey by speaking out against the mighty coach Phil Jackson regarding his 4th quarter benching. Doomed doomed doomed are the lakers in Indy.

"You must die! I alone am best!"
from the song "Die" album "hooray for boobies"...the bloodhound gang
 
Adrian, I will try to address your points specifically:

?If you really believe the garbage you are espousing, WHY are you not speaking out equally to all parties....? I wrote specifically to you because I have been around this board for a while and this seems to be a pattern for you- you attack the ideas of others aggressively and unkindly, and then when someone calls you a name, you fire back with a passion. For the others on this thread, as far as I know, this is a somewhat isolated incident

?this is nonsensical horsecrap, of course it matters who initiates a personal attack first, the kindergarten and bible school teachers were full of **** to tell us otherwise, pacifism (which is stupid) is different than selfdefense (which isnt)......? I disagree. I think we would all be a lot better off if we didn?t always return a wrong for a wrong. I won?t argue the merits of pacifism vs. self-defense, but I do have tremendous respect for leaders like Ghandi and Martin Luther King, Jr. who practiced non-violence. I wonder- what is it exactly that you feel you must defend yourself against? Does it really threaten you that someone calls you name or puts you down?

?it matters ESPECIALLY if that IDIOT includes a comment like "MY DADDY SAYS REMEMBER TO BE KIND" while they are initiating a personal attack...? I didn?t say it doesn?t matter. I am saying you should be a stronger person and just walk away.

?can you rationalize this ******* behavior for me? or are you willing to ignore such *****ic posts simply because they are by people who agree with your position on the topics?? No, I have no need to rationalize anyone else?s behavior. Yes, I am willing to ignore comments that are meant to demean, insult, or otherwise attack another person or their ideas. My position here has nothing to do with what or with whom I agree. My point is exactly the opposite- that we should be able to disagree without the name-calling and insults.

?what else am i to infer? you didnt step up right away and denounce their attacks...you simply get offended when I come back at them? hmmmmm.? You need infer no longer as I have explained my comments. I am not offended; I am simply discouraged by lack of kindness and professionalism.

?your moral superiority would play a lot better if you were a bit more proactive.? I claim no moral superiority, but if that is how you interpret my calling for a higher standard of conduct, so be it.

My intention is to encourage each individual to stick to discussing the issues and stop attacking each other or other points of view. You, Adrian, seem the think it is acceptable to insult someone?s ideas as long as you don?t attack them personally. I see someone?s point of view as an extension of themselves and so attacking their ideas IS attacking them. Again, I ask you, why do you not just express your ideas -pro or con- and leave the scuffling to children?
 
Well, i think we've pretty well proven that there are no differences between DO/MD patient relations, since this has turned into a stupidityfest instead of a topic-driven thread.

Pacifism is great until your children are raped.
 
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