Intentions to Become A Surgeon

[2Fic]

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Hello, I am a frequent reader of these forums; I have tried searching for a topic like this to no avail.
I am a college student, I just finished my Freshmen (technically Sophomore year, by credits) and I will be graduating in three years, which means I will be studying for the MCAT and choosing schools soon.
I know decisions like this cannot be made at such a preliminary stage, however, it has been a lifelong dream of mine to become a surgeon.
With that said, I was wondering which aspects of schools I should be consciousness of when choosing which schools to apply (such as schools that have "high rankings" in Internal Medicine, Geriatrics, etc). Is surgery a separate subcategory?
Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you very much

 

[45408]

They're all good. At the medical student level, virtually any medical school will have a general surgery department to fulfill all of your needs. Pick a school that won't get you too far in debt, in a location that you want, with an environment that you think is a "good fit."

 

[TexasPhysician]

Agreed. Choose the cheapest school. You really shouldn't choose a school based on a specialty you "may" go into. Any US MD school is equally capable to get you there.

 

[BOOURNS]

Agreed. Choose the cheapest school. You really shouldn't choose a school based on a specialty you "may" go into. Any US MD school is equally capable to get you there.

I would disagree in the case of an individual who has a very strong interest in a surgical subspecialty (or other specialty) that may not be universal at medical schools. If you want to do ENT, for instance, and your home program doesn't have an ENT training department, you are at a disadvantage with regards to residency preparation/application.

Just a thought.

 

[VMSmith]

I would disagree in the case of an individual who has a very strong interest in a surgical subspecialty (or other specialty) that may not be universal at medical schools. If you want to do ENT, for instance, and your home program doesn't have an ENT training department, you are at a disadvantage with regards to residency preparation/application.

Just a thought.

I would agree with this.

Also, I would check to see whether or not people at the schools you're considering consistently choose to go into the field(s) you're interested in each year. While not a perfect measure, it can be an indication of how good a job the departments (and attendings) do at generating interest in their specialties.

 

[2Fic]

I would agree with this.

Also, I would check to see whether or not people at the schools you're considering consistently choose to go into the field(s) you're interested in each year. While not a perfect measure, it can be an indication of how good a job the departments (and attendings) do at generating interest in their specialties.

How could I go about doing this?
Thank you all for responding, your responses are greatly appreciated

 

[phospho]

I would disagree in the case of an individual who has a very strong interest in a surgical subspecialty (or other specialty) that may not be universal at medical schools. If you want to do ENT, for instance, and your home program doesn't have an ENT training department, you are at a disadvantage with regards to residency preparation/application.

Just a thought.

But isn't that when "aways" come into place? or do you think that people's home departments write them better rec letters than the away ones?

 

[BOOURNS]

But isn't that when "aways" come into place? or do you think that people's home departments write them better rec letters than the away ones?

Yes and yes. Faculty (esp. "name" faculty) at your home problem can do a lot to help you get into your desired program.

 

[TexasPhysician]

But isn't that when "aways" come into place? or do you think that people's home departments write them better rec letters than the away ones?

Unless you are an awkward person, good LOR's are easy to get in my opinion. You don't even "need" to have a letter from anyone in the field you are going into. Want to match radiology in a top 10 program - I've seen people do it without doing a radiology rotation AND without a letter from a radiologist. Sure if you want to do ortho, a letter from an ortho would be nice. However if you have letters from a trauma surgeon, transplant surgeon, and an IM doc, you will be fine.

Looking at match lists can see where past graduates have gone, but just because your classmates WANT to do family medicine, does not mean your ortho department isn't good. My class has students strong enough to match derm at Mayo but they want to do family medicine.

I think there is only a small benefit to having a "home department" in that you might have an easier time matching there because they have spent the most time with you. Hopefully you got to know your home faculty well and did research with them.

Another recent grad of ours matched neurosurgery at Mayo. We don't have a neurosurg program at our school. He just did a couple of aways.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

But isn't that when "aways" come into place? or do you think that people's home departments write them better rec letters than the away ones?

Yes, that is where aways come in, but you are still fighting an uphill battle if your home school doesn't have the department you're interested in. LORs are just one part of it - it also causes problems when you are trying to find research, and just trying to find good advice/mentorship.

LORs: Most residencies have a "3+1" LOR policy - i.e. you need 3 LORs and can get a 4th (often from the department chair). If you don't have a home program, you would then have to do 3 aways to even have a chance at getting all your letters, and you probably wouldn't end up with a +1 letter

Research: True, research doesn't have to be in the field you're going into. But a lot of people going for the surgical specialties end up taking on some smaller research projects as 3rd/4th years (retrospective series, case studies) within that department

Advising: The dean of students doesn't know everything about every field. Most people end up getting their advice from people within that field - especially the program director for their home program.

Now all that being said, it's difficult to advise someone to pick a med school based on this kind of stuff, because you don't know what field you'll end up in (even if you think you do) and most schools have residencies in most fields.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Yes and yes. Faculty (esp. "name" faculty) at your home problem can do a lot to help you get into your desired program.

To actually be a worthwhile "name" faculty, I'd argue that you need someone that is basically Top 5 in their field AND in the field you want to go into, and as a pre-med, you can't guarantee that person will be there 4+ years down the road.

On top of this, that Top 5 person better be nice enough and know you well enough to write a good letter.

 

[njbmd]

Hello, I am a frequent reader of these forums; I have tried searching for a topic like this to no avail.
I am a college student, I just finished my Freshmen (technically Sophomore year, by credits) and I will be graduating in three years, which means I will be studying for the MCAT and choosing schools soon.
I know decisions like this cannot be made at such a preliminary stage, however, it has been a lifelong dream of mine to become a surgeon.
With that said, I was wondering which aspects of schools I should be consciousness of when choosing which schools to apply (such as schools that have "high rankings" in Internal Medicine, Geriatrics, etc). Is surgery a separate subcategory?
Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you very much

Go to any medical school in this country that you can get into and do well. You are eligible to enter surgery from any medical school in this country but you won't be eligible to enter surgery if you do not have the grades and board scores.

Residency competitiveness is linked to the individual programs and not the the medical schools attached/affiliated with said program. This is why schools that do not have departments in things like Derm or Neurosurgery will graduate students who match into these specialties. This is also why you can do away rotations to round out your education during fourth year provided you meet the requirements for these away rotations. Some places like Mayo, have an application involved.


At this point, your goal is to get into a US medical school period. You won't know how competitive you will be for any medical school until you take the MCAT and apply. Focus on your undergraduate performance and pre-med knowledge base that you can apply to problem-solving. After you get into medical school, then you have to do well. After third year, you can start worrying about residency/specialty competitiveness.

I can also tell you that I entered medical school convinced that I would practice adoescent medicine/pediatrics. Now, I am a surgeon and thus, you will likely change your mind on which specialty you would like to pursue after your have done a clerkship during third year like most medical students.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

However if you have letters from a trauma surgeon, transplant surgeon, and an IM doc, you will be fine.

Gotta disagree with that. As our ortho program's PD said: "If a pediatrician or internist thinks you did a good job, that's nice and all but I don't really care. I want a surgeon to tell me that you are a strong surgical candidate." This person typically advises people to have at most 1 letter from a non-orthopod (and that 1 better be from a surgeon).

 

[TexasPhysician]

LORs: Most residencies have a "3+1" LOR policy - i.e. you need 3 LORs and can get a 4th (often from the department chair). If you don't have a home program, you would then have to do 3 aways to even have a chance at getting all your letters, and you probably wouldn't end up with a +1 letter

Actually most students don't get all their letters from the same department in my experience. I can't think of 1 person who got all their letters in one department.

Most people choose not to get all their letters within the field they are applying just to show that they are a strong, well-rounded applicant. While all ortho surgeons should know ortho, they should also have a working knowledge of IM.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Gotta disagree with that. As our ortho program's PD said: "If a pediatrician or internist thinks you did a good job, that's nice and all but I don't really care. I want a surgeon to tell me that you are a strong surgical candidate." This person typically advises people to have at most 1 letter from a non-orthopod (and that 1 better be from a surgeon).

Not only did my ortho example get accepted at an ortho program, it is quite competitive.

I've never heard your advise from anyone else before. I've heard the exact opposite.

 

[soulofmpatel]

I think that if you're interested in a particular surgical subspecialty, you should try to make sure the the med school you go to has that specialty program with faculty advisors at one of the home sites. In the book Iserson's guide to getting into residency, the author talks about how away rotations are overrated and it's relatively hard to impress people and get strong recs unless you're truly a superstar. It's much easier to impress people and make meaningful contacts at your home program.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I guess different docs can always have differences in opinion.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I think that if you're interested in a particular surgical subspecialty, you should try to make sure the the med school you go to has that specialty program with faculty advisors at one of the home sites. In the book Iserson's guide to getting into residency, the author talks about how away rotations are overrated and it's relatively hard to impress people and get strong recs unless you're truly a superstar. It's much easier to impress people and make meaningful contacts at your home program.

While you obviously can't foresee the future as a pre-med, a home program is quite helpful to a mediocre applicant. If you have higher than average board scores or stellar research, you can basically write your own ticket.

 

[Rzarecta]

While you obviously can't foresee the future as a pre-med, a home program is quite helpful to a mediocre applicant. If you have higher than average board scores or stellar research, you can basically write your own ticket.

Agreed. There may be slight disadvantage for the extremely qualified applicant in terms of not having a home program, but it won't be the deciding factor for the match.

 

[BOOURNS]

You don't even "need" to have a letter from anyone in the field you are going into.

Try getting into derm or ent or plastics without at least 2-3 letters from faculty in that specialty.

Want to match radiology in a top 10 program - I've seen people do it without doing a radiology rotation AND without a letter from a radiologist.

Radiology is not that competitive.

Sure if you want to do ortho, a letter from an ortho would be nice. However if you have letters from a trauma surgeon, transplant surgeon, and an IM doc, you will be fine.

Good luck with that.

you can't guarantee that person will be there 4+ years down the road.

I never suggested that the OP should try to go to a place with name faculty. And I disagree with your "top 5" contention. I doesn't take an international celebrity to help your case. All it takes is name recognition.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Try getting into derm or ent or plastics without at least 2-3 letters from faculty in that specialty.

Radiology is not that competitive.

Good luck with that.


I never suggested that the OP should try to go to a place with name faculty. And I disagree with your "top 5" contention. I doesn't take an international celebrity to help your case. All it takes is name recognition.

I've seen people get into derm and ent with less than 2 letters in the field. Would I try for 2-3? Yes. No doubt Would I try for 4? No. You can do 2 aways without a home program and get 3 letters easy. 2 from program directors and 1 other. Even if you don't have a home program you have probably worked with someone in that field at your home school anyways. We don't have a home ENT program, but even I know 2 ENT's here well enough to ask for letters (and I'm NOT applying ENT). I even play b-ball with one of them, but who really cares.

Radiology average Step 1 score: 235
Derm and ENT average: 238

Does the 3 points make you so much more competitive?

I agree with you on name recognition. To me, a "name" faculty is someone EVERYONE knows. You don't need this. A half-decent ENT who has experience in the field will know a good deal of other ENT's. I'd argue that a half-decent ENT who knows you well and can write a GOOD LOR is much more useful than a quick letter from a Top ENT that doesn't have time for you.

 

[BOOURNS]

Radiology average Step 1 score: 235
Derm and ENT average: 238

Does the 3 points make you so much more competitive?

There's a lot more to it than step 1.

 

[TexasPhysician]

There's a lot more to it than step 1.

Except everyone is doing research, publishing, and doing EC's. Unless you throw in a phd, there isn't much difference.

 

[45408]

Try getting into derm or ent or plastics without at least 2-3 letters from faculty in that specialty.

Let's keep this thread on track. The poor pre-med is asking about general surgery, not derm.

With that said, one of the big surgeons here at my school is known for saying that "Surgeons want to read letters from other surgeons." I'll definitely focus on getting one good letter from someone I've worked with, and then another letter from the chairman, probably just after a sit-down meeting with him or something.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Let's keep this thread on track. The poor pre-med is asking about general surgery, not derm.

With that said, one of the big surgeons here at my school is known for saying that "Surgeons want to read letters from other surgeons." I'll definitely focus on getting one good letter from someone I've worked with, and then another letter from the chairman, probably just after a sit-down meeting with him or something.

This is pretty much true for general surgery. Surgical subspecialties might not care about letters from non-surgeons, but gen surgeons do. The vast majority of your LORs should be from surgeons. Not from OB-Gyns, FM, Peds, etc. A non-surgical letter should be from a MICU or perhaps GI physician.

I expect to hear some dissention, "I knew a guy..." but by and large, these are the rules for general surgery:

- go to whatever school you want to go to; they will have someway to get you in contact with surgeons
- general surgery is a fairly small field (not as much as say ENT, but much smaller than IM, Peds, etc) so letter writers often know each other
- LORs from surgeons are best

 

[soulofmpatel]

While you obviously can't foresee the future as a pre-med, a home program is quite helpful to a mediocre applicant. If you have higher than average board scores or stellar research, you can basically write your own ticket.

That's total BS.

I had dominating board scores (270, 264) and didn't get interviews at some programs in a non-competitive specialty.

 

[BOOURNS]

Except everyone is doing research, publishing, and doing EC's. Unless you throw in a phd, there isn't much difference.

You may believe that rads is no more competitive than derm, but it doesn't make it so. Look at match rates.

But then we go further off topic...