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Interesting! What a PA makes....Parade Magazine

Discussion in 'Clinicians [ RN / NP / PA ]' started by beans&flowers, Apr 17, 2007.

  1. beans&flowers

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  3. Chronic Student

    Chronic Student So Fresh, So Clean

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    That damn comma!

    -Mike
     
  4. Blue Dog

    Blue Dog Fides et ratio.
    Physician Gold Donor SDN Advisor Classifieds Approved

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    PA incomes typically reflect the specialty they're working in. That guy works in orthopedics and sports medicine, so I'd expect to see above-average incomes for their mid-levels.
     
  5. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc

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  6. Febrifuge

    Febrifuge Grizzled Old Newcomer

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    I think you mean "that damn apostrophe S!"

    I hate it. I was having some sutures removed at the walk-in clinic at Target, and was chatting with the PA there about me starting school soon. I pointed out how the glossy sign in the little waiting room said "physician's assistant," and she just said, "yeah, you get used to a lot of tiny little insults."

    Here's one: dude should be able to afford some less dorky shirts for under his white coat. Heh heh.
     
  7. the prodogy

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    I know PA schools usually take 1 year, but I was wondering, do you have to go to additional school to specialize in something? If so, how much more school? Or do you just work in one area and get accepted to certain ones, depending on which one you might want.

    Also, for the average income salary, it says "physicians working atleast 32 hours a week." Obviously, if they're making working 60 hours a week, many of them really wont be making much. Anyways, I was wondering, how much a physician typically makes hourly.
     
  8. corpsmanUP

    corpsmanUP Senior Member

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    I think you need to do some homework instead of posting. PA school is at least 2 years. Most physicians work on a salary and you had to know that the pay depends on the specialty.
     
  9. Chronic Student

    Chronic Student So Fresh, So Clean

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    Uh yeah, that's what I meant. You know the high comma :oops:

    In all fairness, it was pretty late.

    -Mike
     
  10. the prodogy

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    Hahaha... yeah... it is two years... sorry for the typo. A salary would be a little confusing because a there are some PA's that work part time. Anyways, how many hours per week do they usually work. Anyways, I still dont know much about specializing in something and residency.
     
  11. Blue Dog

    Blue Dog Fides et ratio.
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    Actually, only about 12% of physicians work on a straight salary. Most doctors are compensated based on productivity, in one way or another. Source: http://www.aafp.org/fpm/981000fm/cover.html
     
  12. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc

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    residencies for pa's are optional. many places will train a pa on the job to work in that particular specialty.many pa's end up working in a specialty they had prior training in. for example-
    paramedic- em
    resp. therapists- icu or pulmonary medicine
    ortho techs-ortho
    surgical techs-surgery
    nurses- whatever area they worked in before(peds, ob, etc)
    exercise physiologist-cardiology
    only about 5% of pa's do a residency. see www.appap.org for residency info.
    pa work schedules are all over the place. your question is like asking "how much do nurses work or how much do cardiologists work"- some work 1 day a week, some work 6....some work only days, some work only nights. some take call, some don't, etc
     
  13. AlleghenyPOD

    AlleghenyPOD 1st Year MD-bound

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    It also depends on how much you work (full v. part) as well. I have a friend who is finishing up her year here in Allegheny and then going to Chatham College to finish 2 years to get her M.A in Physician's Assistant specialty. From talking to her, she said that P.As make around ~70k (thats not including over time possibilities).
     
  14. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc

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    first there is no 's...it's physician assistant.
    next a pa masters is either an ms, mms(masters medical science), or mpas( masters physician asst studies). don't know of any masters of arts(M.A.) pa programs.
    next the AVG pa last yr made $84,396 without overtime so your friend is misinformed.
    pennsylvania does have the lowest pa salaries in the country do to a glut of pa programs in the area( 15 or so) so that may be what she has been hearing locally but on a national basis it is much higher.
     
  15. AlleghenyPOD

    AlleghenyPOD 1st Year MD-bound

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    Ha, your 'title' suites you. That was my own typo; what I meant to say was that she's going to get her Masters in Physician Assistant at Chatham College in Pittsburgh. My apologies if I got you angry, :rolleyes:

    From past dialogues with my parents and from friends who are actually in PA school, the general consensus is that the base salary of most PAs is around ~70k; of course the pay differs in what field you go into. Some PAs that work with PCPs earn lower than PAs that work with say, orthopedics or surgical groups. A third reason is also: time. You could have a PA that earns 70k as a base but if he/she overtimes, would make considerably more.

    Take for example my mom, who is a CRNA (Nurse Anesthetist). Tho my mom's salary base is at 150k, she works two hospitals in Atlantic City Medical Center as well as Virtua West Jersey-Vorhees (baylor position) and actually makes over 200k.

    As I said, it all depends on your experience, and the amount of time you put in working.

    Regards,
     
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  17. SupergreenMnM

    SupergreenMnM Peanut, not chocolate

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    hhmmmm..so your mother makes more money than an MD anesthetist? That seems a bit fishy.
     
  18. AlleghenyPOD

    AlleghenyPOD 1st Year MD-bound

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    More than an anesthesiologist, no. Anesthesiologists make around 300-600k depending on experience. Nurse Anesthetists are given a base salary of about ~150k (well thats the case in New Jersey), but they actually make ALOT more depending on how many hours they work or if you work balor on the side. Mum said she was paid twice her hourly rate when she works baylor on weekends. They can easily make over 200 k if they want to...easily. Hey if you want to ask questions feel free to PM me.

    Regards,
     
  19. SupergreenMnM

    SupergreenMnM Peanut, not chocolate

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    Avg. for cert. nurse anes is 140k, and thats twice the avg. for a regular np so I don't think you can compair PA to CRNA but you can to NP.

    While reporting makes these reports somewhat sketchy...the average pay for a physician anesthesiologist is 265k, with highest reported being 392k.

    Seems nurse anesthesiologists are overpaid! [​IMG]
     
  20. AlleghenyPOD

    AlleghenyPOD 1st Year MD-bound

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    lol where did you get these averages from? One of my mum's coworkers and a friend of mine, a regular at ACMC(Atlantic City Medical Center) makes around 550+k

    Depends on where you practice as well. If you practice in areas that are well developed per se Atlantic City, Philadelphia, Cherry Hill, etc..you're going to earn more than in if one works in less developed rural areas. CRNAs are independent practictioners and many have varying pay scales depending on their experience as well as their level of degree; there are CRNAs that have a master's degree and earn an average ~150 k (reality wise, most of them earn over 200k). Then you have CRNAs with DNSc (Doctor of Nursing Science) or PhDs; they usually earn around 200-300 k. Then again if you're doing medicine you're not doing it because of the money---its because you LOVE your field! Right?
     
  21. SupergreenMnM

    SupergreenMnM Peanut, not chocolate

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    Actually, those averages are from 2 different salary report firms. You might know someone that makes 500k, but that is way, way above the average. It certainly does depend on where you live, but not enough to change the md pay by 2x so the one you know of is in the top 99.9% of the field. Feel free to do a salary search, while they aren't perfect they are much more reliable than a sample of 1.

    Oh, and I wasn't saying the MDs were underpaid, but that the crnas are OVERPAID :) and don't get me started on DNSc... :lol:
     
  22. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc

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    PA Salaries by State 2006

    The AAPA reported mean total income (MTI) from primary employer for clinically practicing PAs working at least 32 hours a week in its 2006 census report. ADVANCE compiled this chart using data from AAPA's individual state reports.

    State MTI
    Mississippi $95,712
    California $95,205
    Nevada $94,244
    Alaska $92,912
    Connecticut $91,444
    Delaware $89,634
    Texas $88,982
    New Jersey $88,792
    Florida $88,632
    Arizona $88,556
    Massachusetts $88,343
    D.C. $87,826
    Oklahoma $87,415
    Washington $87,040
    Arkansas $86,624
    Georgia $86,511
    Hawaii $86,472
    Rhode Island $85,876
    Alabama $85,660
    Tennessee $85,171
    Maryland $85,106
    Louisiana $84,770
    Utah $84,589
    Michigan $84,493
    U.S. Mean $84,396
    Idaho $83,908
    Minnesota $83,870
    Oregon $83,751
    N. Carolina $83,126
    Wisconsin $83,119
    N. Hampshire $82,958
    Iowa $82,918
    Virginia $82,754
    New Mexico $82,590
    Missouri $82,474
    Vermont $82,470
    Illinois $82,173
    New York $82,005
    Nebraska $81,196
    S. Carolina $80,732
    Maine $79,528
    Wyoming $78,994
    Kentucky $78,633
    Ohio $78,615
    Montana $78,423
    Indiana $78,157
    Colorado $77,972
    Kansas $77,512
    S. Dakota $77,248
    West Virginia $75,672
    North Dakota $74,222
    Pennsylvania $73,383


    Source: American Academy of Physician Assistants



    PA Salaries by Specialty 2006
    In its 2006 census report, the AAPA reported mean total income (MTI) from primary employer for clinically practicing PAs working at least 32 hours a week. ADVANCE compiled this chart using data from AAPA's individual specialty reports.

    Specialty MTI
    Cardiovascular/Cardiothoracic surgery $104,681
    Dermatology $100,735
    Neurosurgery $93,979
    Emergency medicine $92,896
    Surgical subspecialties $91,364
    Orthopedics $90,093
    Critical care medicine
    $89,113
    Plastic surgery $88,900
    Pediatric cardiology $88,086
    Interventional radiology $87,603
    Anesthesiology $86,801
    Trauma surgery $86,752
    Geriatrics $86,712
    Pain management $85,014
    Occupational medicine $84,801
    National mean $84,396
    Urology $84,204
    General surgery $83,296
    Diagnostic radiology $82,837
    Surgical oncology $82,571
    Medical cardiology $82,374
    Addiction medicine $82,034
    Otorhinolaryngology $81,233
    Hospital medicine $80,563
    Psychiatry $79,104
    Medical oncology $78,972
    Family medicine $78,893
    Radiation oncology $78,514

    Pediatric gastroenterology $78,504
    Allergy $78,241
    Pediatric neurology $77,664
    Pediatrics $77,452
    Pediatric oncology $77,047
    Medical gastroenterology $76,858
    Medical rheumatology $76,366
    Medical neurology $76,361
    Medical nephrology $76,295
    Medical endocrinology $75,157
    Obstetrics/Gynecology $74,658
    Public health $73,180


    Source: American Academy of Physician Assistants
     
  23. AlleghenyPOD

    AlleghenyPOD 1st Year MD-bound

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    haha, just dont say that in front of my mom (the joke part, lol) because she's currently working on her DNSc. I will acquiesce that the average salary for anesthesiologists are in the upper 200k up to 300k.
     
  24. AlleghenyPOD

    AlleghenyPOD 1st Year MD-bound

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    Eh doesnt really matter. I'm going into podiatry knowing full well that we dont make as much as CRNAs, for me money isnt the factor, doing something that you know you will like and something that one is generally interested in; for me its the lower extremity.

    In my opinion tho, I think anesthesiologists are OVER paid. They dont really do work; as they have CRNAs to do most of their job, lol. They get paid to 'oversee'. :laugh:

    Cheers!
     
  25. doclm

    doclm Senior Member

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    Many DPM's now a days with that new PM&S-36 residency find themselves making more than CRNA's, however its mainly the time it takes to become a Podiatric Physician that is a lot different.
    (4 yrs Podiatric Med school + 3 yrs surgical residency)

    Thats 7 years of training compared to 2 years within a CRNA program. However, most CRNA programs do require you to have an RN and work at least 1 yr in an ICU. (preferably cardiac)
     
  26. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc

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    fyi- crna programs are ms level-
    For crna 1 needs a bsn( 4 yrs) + 1 yr critical care experience( icu/em/flight) + a 2 yr crna program= 7 yrs compared to 11 for dpm( bs(4)+ dpm(4)+ residency(3))
     
  27. SupergreenMnM

    SupergreenMnM Peanut, not chocolate

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    Well, SOMEONE on the anesthesiology team has to know whats going on! :lol:

    I agree though, to the first part, not the last.
     
  28. rmh149

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    Right...thats why the CRNA is there. :laugh: I'm totally kidding. I just had to respond t a post that suggests the CRNA deosnt know whats going on.:smuggrin:
     
  29. AlleghenyPOD

    AlleghenyPOD 1st Year MD-bound

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    Right on. See thats the kind of thinking that annoys me about some medical students and residents or attending physicians that think they are in a level higher or 'superior' to the attending nursing staff, the physician assistant staff and or other respectable allied health professionals.

    These people are doing what they are doing because they are HIGHLY trained and affluent individuals who took EXTENSIVE amount of schooling and experience/expertise on the parcticular aspect of medicine. Just because a person is a licensed and practicing anesthesiologist does not make him higher than a Registered Nurse Anesthetist who has had over 20+ years experience in the ICU/CCU/TraumaUnit/PACU/ER/OR. Medicine, is like environmental biology in a way that the system is very symbiotic. You cannot have a functioning medical system without the proper synthesis of physicians, nurses, physician assistants, physical therapists etc working together as a team.

    And coming from a highly medical family and having parents as nurses, uncles who are physicians/surgeons and cousins who are medical students I know that such 'derogatory' talking of medical individuals (nurse anesthetist, RNs, CRNP, PAs) is not only unprofessional but extremly crass in nature.

    Respect. That is the key to everything. Don't expect to recieve it if you dont give it in return.

    Best.
     
  30. Noeljan

    Noeljan Senior Member

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    Actually, and this is not mean spirited in any way, it does. MD is a more advanced "higher" degree than a masters level trained person. All the experience in the world does not make someone have a different job. I am not saying this to be mean or derogatory. I have my BSN, besides nursing also worked as a CNA and medical assistant. It is the same with CNA's. No amount of years at work puts you on the same level professionally as the nurse. This has nothing to do with you as a person, it has to do with education, degree, and professional responsibility.
    Now, you are right in the sense that it is a team, but even teams have different players with differing responsibilities and skills to the team. Not everyone can be the quarterback or the forward on ice. Just like not everyone can be the nurse, or the doctor, or the PT, etc....
     
  31. rmh149

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    NoelJan, I dont think you can compare the difference between a CNA and RN to a CRNA and anesthesiologist when pertaining to the practice of anesthesia.
     
  32. SupergreenMnM

    SupergreenMnM Peanut, not chocolate

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    Respect is fine, you clearly don't understand the difference between experience and education. Sorry, but my aunt has been a RN in oncology for the last 25 years, but I wouldn't even dream of asking her for the molecular mechanism behind drug A vs drug B and how that would affect a synergistic rxn of either with drug C, and how using a drug with alternate molecular pathway than another being used will avoid certain interactions. For just about every job in medicine there is an example of that. Residents and attendings ARE superior to other staff when it comes to medical judgement and knowledge...

    I'm somewhat surprised that you fail to see the difference between treating each other with respect and thinking that people are equal professionally. You have no idea what you actually don't know, if you want to find out I suggest you go to medical school and see if you are not content with your current level of knowledge/practice. I have no problem respecting other healthcare providers, however, I'll be certain not to hire any allied staff that doesn't know their scope of practice/limitations/knowledgelvl and are unable to acknowledge them and work professionally with others.
     
  33. Beau Geste

    Beau Geste yah mo b there
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    Ummm... my dad is also a CRNA in a small town at a small hospital in IL. He makes on average $250k. Some years are better, some worse. He eats what he kills so to speak.

    My dad has a partner but it's only the two of them covering the hospital. They do about 5-6 procedures a day each with 2 ORs at this hospital. He also has 50:50 call and gets paid more when called in for emergencies, too.

    He would make less if there was more coverage, but his call would be a lot lighter, too.

    I know of several other rural CRNAs that make similar $$.
     
  34. whoopsie_1

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    An excerpt:

    http://www.hostingphpbb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1475&mforum=kinetic&sid=c281f8a0e38feb556b170fa9a095faae#1475

     
  35. Beau Geste

    Beau Geste yah mo b there
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    Thanks for clarifying this. My mother is an MD, my dad a CRNA and they are equally respected despite the letters.

    Well, yes, in some ways it does. Given equal years in practice, an MD has had rigorous training in the form of a residency, which consists not only of anesthesia but a variety of other rotations that give insight into how the other specialties tick.

    And by "synthesis" I think you mean "symbiosis". Synthesis means "creation of".

    did you consider that maybe your family members are just rude? In the beginning of your post you made sure to clarify "some" so as not to generalize, but now it looks like you're basing your opinions on your family members.

    For any rude doctor you come up with, I can give you an awesome one. Some people are just jerks, no matter what their job is. So try not to think of physicians as jerks, but the people who happen to be physicians that are jerks. I know a heckuva lot of people who are nurses that are jerks, too.

    Remember it's a two-way street.
     
  36. Beau Geste

    Beau Geste yah mo b there
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    Riiiight. :thumbdown:
     
  37. SupergreenMnM

    SupergreenMnM Peanut, not chocolate

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    Yeah, I looked that up afterwards b/c I couldn't believe it, not that they are necessarily paid so much but that some physicians (peds/fam practice, im) are paid so little when the social perception is just the opposite. Its funny, my brother's girlfriend got all upset when I mentioned how some people dont want to go to school for 7 years after college, rack up 200k in loans, and go into family practice. She was like well if its what someone wants to do money doesn't matter...right, as she graduates with her accounting degree :rolleyes:
     
  38. Bent Aub

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    I don't quite get the point you are trying to make here. Because PAs and nurses are wealthy they are as well trained as physicians?
     
  39. Bent Aub

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    Again, pardon the ignorance. Is Physician's Assistant offensive? Is it because it implies ownership or something like that? Please let me know of any other common 'insults' to avoid. I've never been educated on this and want to be professional when working with PAs.
     
  40. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc

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    yup- the title of the profession is physician assistant.
    "bob is a physician assistant" not "bob is a physician's assistant".
    see the difference?
    it would be like calling a nurse a nurse's aide.
     
  41. Blue Dog

    Blue Dog Fides et ratio.
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    Sorry, I don't get it.

    "Physician Assistant" = "Assists a physician"
    "Physician's Assistant" = "Assists a physician"

    Of course, one is correct and one isn't, but there's absolutely no difference in meaning.

    Now, try to explain "Physician Associate." ;)
     
  42. Bent Aub

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    Yeah, that was my confusion too. Grammatically, it means the same thing. And if one is a physician assistant, it implies that he/she is assisting a physician, and hence is that physician's assistant.

    Anyways, way too confusing for my simple mind. Now I know. Thanks for the info, and I'll try to remember to use the respectful terminology.:)
     
  43. core0

    core0 Which way is the windmill

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    One is possesive and one isn't. One means belongs to the physician and one means assistst the physician. Also one is the official title of the profession and one isn't. We don't necessarily assist any particular physician but preform a job assisting and providing medical care of patients. Depends on the role and the job.

    As far as Physician Associate, that was the original name of the profession. There are still a few programs (Yale and OU come to mind) that give out physician associate degrees. There are some that champion this as the official title because it leads to less confusion and is more appropriate for the role. The probability of this happening anytime soon approachs 0. I personally like the title that the UK originally proposed (medical care practitioner). Tells it like it is, describes the profession.

    David Carpenter, PA-C
     
  44. Blue Dog

    Blue Dog Fides et ratio.
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    It pretty much describes every profession.
     
  45. Beau Geste

    Beau Geste yah mo b there
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    Whose assistant are you? The physician's.

    That's like me arguing over whether to call me a speech-language pathologist or a speech therapist. Either way, I still do the same damn job!
     
  46. emedpa

    emedpa GlobalDoc

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    "Whose assistant are you? The physician's."

    uh, no
    I don't belong to them.
    I work with them. I can work without them present. in fact I can work without ever seeing them at all. we have to have a relationship that offers minimal oversight via chart review or other means(in my state this relationship is refered to as "sponsorship" ).
    I never "assist" as I don't work in the o.r.
    it's the current name of our profession and one of the problems with the profession.
    physician associte works much better but as david said only 3 programs that I know of give this title(his two and stanford) and only 1 state uses the title frequently(ct).

    why is this such a difficult concept for people?
    's=possessive which is very insulting. might as well say doctor's little helper.
    it's the difference between a medical assistant and a clinician with a graduate degree and in most cases 8- 10 yrs of post high school education when you consider prior medical training+ bs+pa school.
     
  47. SupergreenMnM

    SupergreenMnM Peanut, not chocolate

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    I think the word assistant is used to denote that its a mid level position, while associate implies a professional equal. That said I agree with the part about the 's, though for the very hot PA I know I really really wish it was a 's. :D
     
  48. PhysioMan

    PhysioMan 's Hater

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    :wow: :wow: :wow::wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:
     
  49. Blue Dog

    Blue Dog Fides et ratio.
    Physician Gold Donor SDN Advisor Classifieds Approved

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    I sincerely hope you're not always so easily offended. ;)
     
  50. Noeljan

    Noeljan Senior Member

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    Well a nurse's assistant doesn't belong to a nurse either, and it is still that way. Also, I don't get why PA's always include their prior medical training, or degrees on top of those required as part of their education. I see this a lot. I went to graduate school before starting med school this fall, I also worked as an RN, CNA and medical assistant. I don't get to add those all on and claim more "medical education" than my classmates.
    Another thing I don't get, and don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for PA's, a few of my friends are PA's. BUT some of them claim they don't want to go to medical school, they don't want the job of the doctor, the want simplies case loads and a life, etc....once they get there they get kind of pissed, and start claiming they can do the job of the doctor, and don't need any supervision, and should be a physician equal, want more "rights". HELLO you are going against the main reason you went into the field. You knew you were an assistant. You are assisting physician's workload with more benign cases.
    Another thing I don't get, as someone pointed out how PA's and NPs get to go home each day, brag about how much they make etc....Physicians are not allowed to do that, yet for some strange reason it is always a nonMD/DO who get pissed about physician salary, or flip out how docs dont care about patients as much as they do when the doc doesnt have a huge smile on his/her face after not going home for a few days.
     
  51. lawguil

    lawguil Senior Member

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    Let's face it: A PA is a different career than a physician, but I really don't know how a PA can claim they don't want the job of a physician when what they do is so similar.

    I believe the reason a person would go to PA school is simply a matter of time (2 yrs v. 4 yrs + residency). I think if a student said to me that they didn't want to be a physician or the job of a doctor, but a PA instead, I might have some questions about what they new of the PA profession.

    I also think it would be natural for a PA to want more autonomy as they developed their skills and is usually delegated once the supervising physician feels comfortable with the PA. At least that's my understanding.

    I also think it's fairly natural and common in any profession to lobby and develop support for higher salaries. I think PA's make a comfortable living (you describe it as bragging), but also may be able to make the case that they are worth more than they are paid from the business perspective of healthcare.

    I would really question the merit and motive of the short-sighted post quoted above.
     
  52. Noeljan

    Noeljan Senior Member

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    So wait, now you are saying a PA is the same job as a physician?
    Also, I often question the motives behind some of your posts, as I have debated with you before and you often claim things aout many things you have no experience with.
    I am not putting down PAs at all, some are really great. BUT they are not MD/DOs, and when going into the field they really need to decide...do I want to be a doctor, then go to medical school; if not, then go to PA school. It is their choice. I am going to defend my future profession just like anyone else, so I don't know what to say about that. If someone wants an MD/DOs job, they should pick up and go to medical school.
     

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