International Students Getting into Australian Internship Program?

[hesble]

I am expecting that I would be able to stay in Australia in the future. However, I have heard that it's very difficult for international students to get into an internship program in Australia and what is worse is that Commonwealth Medical Internships is going to end in 2018.

I know that it has been discussed for many times but I am still trying to find more about it. Is there anyone who graduate from Australian school and get internship there as an international student?
Is it really so hard for international students who graduate from Australian medical schools to get an internship offer? If it's true, I may reconsier if 300k is worth it.

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[lyndal]

It is challenging, but it is not impossible.
Every international graduate from UOW so far has either matched in Australia or their home country or both.
All of this years graduating class (Australian and international) have Australian internships for next year - so our 100% match rate continues.
The future is hard to predict, and you need to know there are no guarantees, but it is also not impossible either.

 

[hesble]

It is challenging, but it is not impossible.
Every graduate from UOW so far has either matched in Australia or their home country or both.
All of this years graduating class have Australian internships for next year - so our 100% match rate continues.
The future is hard to predict, and you need to know there are no guarantees, but it is also not impossible either.

Thanks for replying. It's very helpful

 

[Domperidone]

I'm an intern who was an international student. As in finishing up my intern year not just starting one, if you have any more questions.
Lovely of an administrator from a med school to respond to your post. Adds some insight, and nice to see them on the forums, but remember they represent a medical school that relies on or wants the full tuition fees of international students. I would personally be careful (with all due respect to A/Prof Parker-Newlyn) about what sources you use about investing your 300k, what sort of bias can they have. i.e. I'm sure the med school would want for you to attend and pay full fees, but they have no power over your getting a job after to fill that 300k hole in your account.

For those of us who got internships as internationals - it required a lot of effort to accomplish and stress, as well as assistance from medical societies. I would say I got minimal assistance from my medical school, rather, they told me they supply the degree, but do not have the expertise to provide advice on applying for jobs afterwards. Myself and other students would have to rely on ourselves, the alumni and student societies. It was far from a situation of everyone submitted an internship and hoped for the best. It was hard. And it was not straightforward. I would never make a conclusion based off a single statistic. And the match is not 100% at all Australian Schools and it may not be that high forever. UoW is a small school in NSW, it may have a small international cohort compared to say the larger med schools with hundreds of internationals and domestic students.

Also - easier to ensure high match rates with the commonwealth medical internships (being a massive lifesaver truly - offering up to 100 places for internationals), but the numbers of international students has increased annually and more and more Australian schools are signing up for this. It's possible that should the Commonwealth Medical internships remain, it may not match the number of grads. UWA just had 9 grads this year that did not get an internship by January 2017. There's also a lot of exclusion criteria to that internship program.

It can also be highly dependent on what state attend medical school in and the rules of the states can change any time while you're in school. 4 years can be a long time in politics and anything goes year by year. To say it's unpredictable is an understatement.

Ironically, there's a predicted oversupply for doctors by the Federal Government in Australia, of about 7000 by 2030. They are contemplating removing some medical occupations from a skills occupation list that assists with getting PR status, making it harder to migrate permanently and be a doctor past a couple of years in Australia.

Furthermore, even if you get an internship, there's more and more competition each year to get re-signed or renew your contract. In Australia - the system after med school is that you do internship, then house officer years each year before you can even apply for vocational training (i.e. the equivalent to residency in north america let's say). as house officer you can't call yourself a Family medicine resident for example. You have to do hospital rotations (almost like an intern again) for 1-2 years before you can even apply for say family medicine training for another 2-3 years, or up to 5 years before applying for surgery let's say. They call it registrar training. And it's getting harder and harder to apply for those positions. Also, it's getting already getting harder to apply for some consultant or attending positions in certain areas, like dermatology, emergency medicine and obstetrics, depending on what state you're in.

Addit -
For prospective students, ask the schools you're looking into what they're doing to assist you with finding work after graduation. Rather than just how well the grads have done.

 

[hesble]

I'm an intern who was an international student. As in finishing up my intern year not just starting one, if you have any more questions.
Lovely of an administrator from a med school to respond to your post. Adds some insight, and nice to see them on the forums, but remember they represent a medical school that relies on or wants the full tuition fees of international students. I would personally be careful (with all due respect to A/Prof Parker-Newlyn) about what sources you use about investing your 300k, what sort of bias can they have. i.e. I'm sure the med school would want for you to attend and pay full fees, but they have no power over your getting a job after to fill that 300k hole in your account.

For those of us who got internships as internationals - it required a lot of effort to accomplish and stress, as well as assistance from medical societies. I would say I got minimal assistance from my medical school, rather, they told me they supply the degree, but do not have the expertise to provide advice on applying for jobs afterwards. Myself and other students would have to rely on ourselves, the alumni and student societies. It was far from a situation of everyone submitted an internship and hoped for the best. It was hard. And it was not straightforward. I would never make a conclusion based off a single statistic. And the match is not 100% at all Australian Schools and it may not be that high forever. UoW is a small school in NSW, it may have a small international cohort compared to say the larger med schools with hundreds of internationals and domestic students.

Also - easier to ensure high match rates with the commonwealth medical internships (being a massive lifesaver truly - offering up to 100 places for internationals), but the numbers of international students has increased annually and more and more Australian schools are signing up for this. It's possible that should the Commonwealth Medical internships remain, it may not match the number of grads. UWA just had 9 grads this year that did not get an internship by January 2017. There's also a lot of exclusion criteria to that internship program.

It can also be highly dependent on what state attend medical school in and the rules of the states can change any time while you're in school. 4 years can be a long time in politics and anything goes year by year. To say it's unpredictable is an understatement.

Ironically, there's a predicted oversupply for doctors by the Federal Government in Australia, of about 7000 by 2030. They are contemplating removing some medical occupations from a skills occupation list that assists with getting PR status, making it harder to migrate permanently and be a doctor past a couple of years in Australia.

Furthermore, even if you get an internship, there's more and more competition each year to get re-signed or renew your contract. In Australia - the system after med school is that you do internship, then house officer years each year before you can even apply for vocational training (i.e. the equivalent to residency in north america let's say). as house officer you can't call yourself a Family medicine resident for example. You have to do hospital rotations (almost like an intern again) for 1-2 years before you can even apply for say family medicine training for another 2-3 years, or up to 5 years before applying for surgery let's say. They call it registrar training. And it's getting harder and harder to apply for those positions. Also, it's getting already getting harder to apply for some consultant or attending positions in certain areas, like dermatology, emergency medicine and obstetrics, depending on what state you're in.

Addit -
For prospective students, ask the schools you're looking into what they're doing to assist you with finding work after graduation. Rather than just how well the grads have done.

Thank you for providing the valuable information. Actually it never occurred to me that it's hard to apply for rotation positions and there's an oversupply of doctors.

I think Australian universities are kind of "selling degrees". And I really doubt what they are willing to do to help international students. The internship problem has been discussed for so many years yet we haven't seen many changes. It's obvious that with the expanding of "graduate entry medicine" program, there are more and more doctors in Australia, but I think medical schools are still admitting more and more international students.

Being a doctor is my dream and unfortunately, for some rediculous reasons, I couldn't be admitted into medical schools in my country. Going to Australia probably means that I would waste 300k and end up with not being able to be a physician. And going to the United States isn't very realistic for a foreigner who never land a foot on North America continent. Now I understand why people say that dreams are hard to follow.

 

[Domperidone]

Dreams are hard to follow.
It comes down to how much you're willing to risk and determined you are. even how open you are to unpredicted changes in rules with regards to international students over the space of 4 years. Like, would you regret never trying more than giving it a shot (a 300k shot) and it not going to plan? If you end up going to Australia, do so with open eyes and a hard stomach.

On looking back, with all the ups and downs I'd gone through, I think it was worth it. I love being a junior doctor, (some days are better than others). However, the whole experience was not what I thought it would be. There's a lot of murky unethical things about the system too, lack of clarity for one. When I started 5 years ago and the landscape's already changed since I started with regards to training and jobs. Reminds me of the saying, be careful what you wish for. Because it might come true.

The lifestyle can be tough too, after grad and resident/registrar training begins. Hospital based registrars (those in surgery or the medical specialties) work long hours and are shuttled to various hospitals, both rural and metro every 3-6 months. Constantly moving house. That's if you get into something competitive (so virtually everything that isn't psychiatry, pathology or GP), and it can take up to 5-6 years to say get into a surgical program (not guaranteed - requires a lot of resume building - like passing a surgical anatomy exam, taking courses after grad, research). You really, really have to love what you do in some specialities. GP is relatively easier to get into and has a better lifestyle, which has always been the case. Rural GP can be tougher, as you're often the sole doctor in a small town. Most internationals will end up working in rural hospitals as interns (very generally speaking) so you have to be okay with that lifestyle.

It still however, is easy to say work in countries in Singapore after graduation or the intern year. But that's probably one of the few countries where it's easy to get training positions with an Australian degree after grad.

Just be extremely careful when choosing a medical school if you decide on Australia.
Commonwealth medical internships require that you do all 4 years of your degree in Australia to be eligible (so..no joining those programs that offer two years in Australia and two in another country). That's if they're still around by the time you graduate. Talk to current students too of schools you're interested in. Then find out what the state requirements are for internationals to get internships or what the priority groups are (but bear in mind that things can change) of the states you're interested in. If you're not from say..a Western country, you have to take the IELTs (English exam) and score highly. As it's more likely you'll end up working in a rural hospital..logically, it'll be easier to get a job if you got to a rural school. Keep digging. At least make the best choice you possibly can for yourself.

 

[bluefish18]

@A Leaky Sieve
Thank you for your detailed response. I would like to inquire about the "blood sweat and tears" that you had to spend to secure an internship. As far as I am aware internship allocation is only based upon priority category and then random ballot. What extra tasks were you able to to to boost your chances?

 

[Domperidone]

Depends on what state you're in.
That determines how much effort you had to try.
The factors involved included how many international students there were/are at a particularly school or state. Also the demographics of those students (how hard or how desperate they were to go home v.s. staying in Australia) and how (historically) previous students treated their internships, *or even internship offers. For e.g. did they leave their internship part way to start another position overseas.

It also depended on a particular situation and the individual student. Your background, your CV etc. Luck also plays a major part. Also depends on the hospital. The other part to it, is making the effort to make yourself known to a hospital. Expressing an interest. Sometimes, in some states, this actually the most important part. Remember it's the hospitals that train and hire interns, even though the state government pays (or feds in the CMI program). Schools have nothing to do with residency.

The reason it's come to this, is because of many political or historical issues and with regards to how the system is set up. More and more, it's simply not enough to submit an application to a state internship campaign. There's far too many applicants (and mixed in there, many applicants with no serious intent of staying) and by contrast, fewer positions for all those applicants. There's no requirement on hospitals to hire them all either, or even look at all the applications. It's then all about who can get their attention and show commitment. Or it's about timing. If they have a workforce gap, they need to find someone to fill it.

That's the short answer. I'm happy to expand on any points you like - just ask.

The priority groups mean nothing in a sense. In my opinion anyway. Other than to say you're less likely to get a metropolitan hospital and most likely to end up rural or under the CMI (so private and rural or hospitals only). As domestic students who trained within a particular state are more likely to fill all metropolitan spots first.

Theoretically. Random ballot within a priority group would work if there's enough positions for all applicants within a group. If there's an imbalance that is not in your favour (which there is in most states now), would you really bet your 200-300k degree on winning that lottery? Or would you try to tilt or "rig" it in your favour? There's no where that says any hospital or government in Australia guarantees an international student a job after graduation, although they do guarantee it for any domestic that had their education subsidized by the government.

*Addit: It's not considered random ballot in many Australian States. There are priority groups, but generally for internationals within each one, it's merit based. i.e. you compete with other people in your priority group for a position when you go to apply.

 

[bluefish18]

@A Leaky Sieve
What did you do to make yourself known to a hospital, as well as to show commitment?

 

[Domperidone]

There's several ways, but none guarantees anything.
- do a rotation or elective with hospitals known to take international students (usually rural)
- call medical workforce or visit (or arrange a visit), ask if they're interested in hiring, leave CVs etc.
- other students also had research with consultants affiliated with hospitals they applied to, but not always the case (I would not recommend doing research unless it was something you're passionate about)
- many hospitals may say no, some said sure, we'll keep you on file. others, if they didn't have a vacancy at the time, then it's about calling again later in the year.
- really depended on med workforce at a particular hospital too, if they were interested in hiring they would advise about what they expected, what they wanted to see in candidates, how they would like be pursued etc. some can be pretty upfront.
- all CMI hospitals prefer to be contacted for instance, what they don't want is someone half heartedly applying (that is, someone really intending to go back home, but applying in the event that they don't get interviews for home etc.), it's a rough way to weed out those who genuinely wish to stay - as in, those who don't bother to ask them, probably don't really need the position. it's also outlined in CMI rules - candidates have to contact hospitals on their own to make arrangements ahead of time.

again, highly state dependent, and also hospital dependent, on how they run their show. some hospitals simply said, we only hire based on what a state campaign allocates, they don't wish to be solicited. others preferred having greater control.

If you're of a North American background, many hospitals have been burned by North American background students before. So some will grill you hard about what your future intentions are.
It is much less appealing to them if you have plans to go back. Your chances are cut short, if you intend to apply for the match in either the US or Canada directly after you grad.

This because of timing. The intern year starts in January, the match occurs in March/April and then residency starts in July. This means, anyone who matches in Canada or the US after starting an internship will have to leave it part way, before completing it. It leaves a workforce gap. It's pretty bad if you've pursued a hospital really hard, then dropped them part way into a year, without fulfilling a contract. They made a promise to you, you've broken your end of it.

Also half way through an internship, it's very challenging to find someone to replace that gap. It is sometimes possible to, but then a new person has to be trained, and in the interim, it means the team is without a resident. Some hospitals employ multiple residents per team. Other hospitals only have maybe one intern and one registrar on a particular team. The long term effect of this is that they'll be more reluctant to hire future international students the following years, because it's judged as too risky. It's too flighty and unreliable a population. Not only will have such interns wasted money, hospital resources, but also time. They could have hired someone who would have stayed the year (there's plenty of international grads around now), and possibly for years to come. For rural hospitals where retention is huge problem, this particularly important. In high enough numbers, which has happened at certain hospitals and states before, it sends a message to the government that internationals are voluntarily leaving after grad and have no interest in staying. In other words, it signals to them that there's no need, to say, continue programs like CMI or expand places to include internationals.

on the flip side, if past international alumni left a good impression and left a strong legacy, they'd be more likely to hire internationals from their alma mater.
name dropping helps, but only if you really knew them well. so wherever you go, you end up an ambassador for all the internationals at your school that will come after you.

 

[BigPikachu]

It's possible, but you have to be prepared to go through a tedious accreditation process, and be committed to work in a rural precinct for the next decade.

The reality is that there is a decreasing demand for international medical graduates (IMGs) to support the domestic medical workforce. It used to be the case that we had a rural medical workforce shortage, but in this day and age with the boom of domestic medical graduates, we will have more than enough doctors to staff the smallest townships all across Australia in this decade. This goes without saying that in urban-metropolitan areas there are more than enough doctors there; you only have to drive down a road, and every two blocks you'll find a GP's office, not to mention that it is hard for attending-physicians/consultants to find staff specialist jobs in the main city hospitals nowadays.

And, we haven't even mentioned the competitiveness of enrolling into a specialist training program to become a fully-qualified independent practitioner (i.e. attending-physician/consultant of a specialty).

I don't say this to discourage you; Australia is a lovely place to practice medicine and to live, but you'll have to be prepared to go through a competitive and tedious process.

http://www.medicalboard.gov.au/Registration/International-Medical-Graduates.aspx
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/p...c~work-pubs-mtrp-13-5~work-pubs-mtrp-13-5-med

 

[Domperidone]

We weren't talking about IMGs in this thread, it's international students who studied at Australian Medical schools. This is an entirely different subset.

See the conversation topic:
http://theconversation.com/why-inte...deserve-a-place-in-australian-hospitals-10261, which was written by Lesleyann Hawthorne, an Australian Healthworkforce (when it used to exist) officer and University of Melbourne researcher.
It's also been discussed by AMA https://ama.com.au/ausmed/australia’s-internship-crisis-national-process
and AMSA: https://www.amsa.org.au/node/861.

BigPikachu, what you've said is completely valid for IMGs, but it is not applicable to international students (so non-Australian Citizens or PR) but are studying on Australian soil at Australian medical schools alongside domestic Australian students. There is a separate thread on the 10 year moratorium, it's a different topic that is perhaps out of scope in this one. There are also other threads where IMGs (so non-citizens with non-Australian medical degrees) are posting queries, desperately needing posts like the one you just put up.

Bit confused on whether it was a misunderstanding of this thread, or uncertainty on the difference? I can see that you graduated from Bond University - where there are maybe 1-2 international students per year graduating from your school, so I'm assuming minimal exposure?

I attended UQ. We had up to 200 international students (myself included - but I am now a grad), mostly from Canada and the USA in our cohort of up to 550 per year (other schools in other states had different compositions - some have mostly Singaporean/Malaysian). Australia-wide at most public Australian medical schools (i.e. the ones short on cash) have large proportions of international students (full-fee paying), along side CSP/domestic Australian students.

So, to further emphasize my point (for the prospective and current international students attending an Australian medical school school who may be reading this) - I am one of those said international students from an Australian med school now intern in Australia, and I don't work in the rural precinct, nor is there a requirement for me to for the next decade, and I've been through no tedious accreditation process. Because I graduated with an Australian medical degree. I was treated exactly like my domestic Australian peers except in one exceptionally important regard which I will clarify below.

The only difference international students from Australian schools face compared to domestic Australians is how we apply and receive an internship in Australia. Domestic Australians on commonwealth supported places (so public schools with federal subsidy/loan etc) are guaranteed internship in Australia. International students are not. however, with substantial effort (as I've discussed in above posts), it is possible to obtain an internship for anyone with an Australian medical school degree. Regardless, we still rank higher than IMGs. IMGs will be at Priority 8 if they are even on the priority lists at all, and have to write the AMC exam outside of medical school. International students rank from Priority 1 in ACT, Priority 2 in TAS or VIC, to 3 or 4 in NSW & QLD etc. and write no extra exams.

Much of time, yes, most international students will end up rural as domestic Australian are always priority 1 (as in they get first dibs) and they always choose to go to metropolitan positions first, typically filling up all spots there. Generally, remaining positions unfilled by the time international students (with Australian degrees) come to "match" in Australia are in rural areas. Which in my opinion, is fair, although there's many perspectives on this. I choose to take the public health pov, in other words, Western governments invest millions if not billions in training a medical workforce among their citizens. They have to protect the investment they made in domestic students, in particular where they have subsidized their training/are on government loans. Lesser known, is that the government also covers the cost of training international students (the full fees primarily go to the universities - it doesn't cover their teaching and learning in public hospitals where they spend 2 years). So, it is still a loss if international students leave Australia after they grad, but much less substantial than say if a domestic grad left the practice of medicine.

Much more detail on priority groups across Australia in the following article on the Conversation - http://theconversation.com/factchec...-given-priority-over-australian-doctors-16327.

The only return of service - where international students with Australian medical degrees are required to work in a rural area - is the Commonwealth Medical Internship program, a federally funded program that was created specifically for international students who graduated from Australian medical schools, and were unable to obtain a state funded internship. They are required to fulfill 48 weeks (up to a year) of return of service in regional or rural Australia within 5 years - so anytime in 5 years, you can do rural rotations as a medical officer, intern year included. In other words, you can still do a mixed year of metro and rural rotations, no one says it has to be done consecutively either. It is much, much less severe compared to Canada or the USA where return of service is anywhere from 3-5 years.

I definitely, definitely agree with that reality of having an oversupply of doctors and the competitiveness of training. Hence my being incredibly direct and blunt with both prospective and current students (who do not have Australian PR or citizenship = international) BUT are students paying full fees to study at an Australian medical school on Australian soil for 4-6 years. I would encourage anyone to strongly consider and research where they're going before they drop 250-300k for a degree outside of their home country. The downfalls to studying at an Australian medical school for a North American student has a tendency to be under discussed or overlooked or both.

However, I qualify for PR a year after work (after the intern year). Currently (this may actually change within the next few years) medical officers, even junior ones, are still on the Australian government's list of 'needed' professions. This means, I compete for future training placements like any other Australian citizen or permanent resident. Since the government (finally) projected an oversupply of doctors, they are contemplating removing some medical professions from the list.

The state of international students studying at Australian medical schools has been a massive topic in Australia for several years now. In terms of the realities faced by this group and it's impact on both Australian medical workforce and the workforce in Canada and the USA. Any Australian graduates, even citizens of Canada/USA, are considered IMGs to North America. The process for any Canadians and Americans to return home is substantially more tedious than remaining in Australia, they are required to take exams (8 hour MCQs, sometimes 2-3 of these and an OSCE - aka USMLEs, MCCEE and NAC OSCE). There's no requisite for Australian grads no matter their origin, to take the AMC Qs for instance that IMGs take to practice in Australia. (My understanding is that Singapore is so short on doctors, Australian grads are readily welcomed and needed).

To clarify - I'm not picking at your post.
Merely trying to ensure the large numbers of International students looking to study medicine as students in Australian medical schools are clear in their minds what they're facing when they come here. A lot of them rely on these forums to get outside information, apart from what medical schools and their recruitment agencies (like Oztrekk) feed them. Most have never been to Australia, they wouldn't have any clue. They will when they start training in Australia, but prior to that, nada.

The medical schools (even if they come from the best intentions) are terrible at guiding them through the post-graduate training process. Some don't even try. (Not entirely their fault, more often than not, I find faculty are just not in touch with what's going on, they're as lost and hopeless as their students. Over saturation of the market for doctors, is kinda low on their priority list, while they're busy promoting and selling degrees).

Education is a booming industry in the billions, it's the top export in Australia. Medical degrees are highly prized and among the most expensive. Even if the market's over saturated, the universities don't benefit from over-saturation, actually quite the opposite. Eventually, like everything else, the government probably will catch up and put a much needed cap on student numbers, but it's already too late. Too many new schools, too many students, been that way for a decade. https://ama.com.au/ausmed/new-medical-schools-could-worsen-intern-crisis.

Despite, this there's yet another a new medical school opening up at Perth, which will also include an intake of international students. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-...-medical-university-campus-in-midland/8044240. Here's what the university is saying (and what it was saying for years to get traction for its med school): "The university believes the school will go a long way to addressing a "critical shortage" of doctors, especially in rural, remote and outer-suburb locations". The government didn't even stop them - https://ama.com.au/ausmed/‘captain’s-call’-medical-school-won’t-fix-doctor-shortage (Abbott at the time, but still. For a conservative government, closing the tap on a billion dollar industry - education & full fee paying students - goes against the grain, they get away with it because there's no guarantee or no legal obligation on their part to provide post-graduate training or jobs to any of these students). Irony is that now there's actually people with Australian degrees from WA unable to find work. https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/uwa-doctor-out-of-work-next-year-ng-b88335098z. But yes, let's do open up more schools and encourage more internationals to attend to pay full fees and live with the stress and prospect of having no post-graduate training, while they spend four years as students in Australia.

 

[hesble]

There's several ways, but none guarantees anything.
- do a rotation or elective with hospitals known to take international students (usually rural)
- call medical workforce or visit (or arrange a visit), ask if they're interested in hiring, leave CVs etc.
- other students also had research with consultants affiliated with hospitals they applied to, but not always the case (I would not recommend doing research unless it was something you're passionate about)
- many hospitals may say no, some said sure, we'll keep you on file. others, if they didn't have a vacancy at the time, then it's about calling again later in the year.
- really depended on med workforce at a particular hospital too, if they were interested in hiring they would advise about what they expected, what they wanted to see in candidates, how they would like be pursued etc. some can be pretty upfront.
- all CMI hospitals prefer to be contacted for instance, what they don't want is someone half heartedly applying (that is, someone really intending to go back home, but applying in the event that they don't get interviews for home etc.), it's a rough way to weed out those who genuinely wish to stay - as in, those who don't bother to ask them, probably don't really need the position. it's also outlined in CMI rules - candidates have to contact hospitals on their own to make arrangements ahead of time.

again, highly state dependent, and also hospital dependent, on how they run their show. some hospitals simply said, we only hire based on what a state campaign allocates, they don't wish to be solicited. others preferred having greater control.

If you're of a North American background, many hospitals have been burned by North American background students before. So some will grill you hard about what your future intentions are.
It is much less appealing to them if you have plans to go back. Your chances are cut short, if you intend to apply for the match in either the US or Canada directly after you grad.

This because of timing. The intern year starts in January, the match occurs in March/April and then residency starts in July. This means, anyone who matches in Canada or the US after starting an internship will have to leave it part way, before completing it. It leaves a workforce gap. It's pretty bad if you've pursued a hospital really hard, then dropped them part way into a year, without fulfilling a contract. They made a promise to you, you've broken your end of it.

Also half way through an internship, it's very challenging to find someone to replace that gap. It is sometimes possible to, but then a new person has to be trained, and in the interim, it means the team is without a resident. Some hospitals employ multiple residents per team. Other hospitals only have maybe one intern and one registrar on a particular team. The long term effect of this is that they'll be more reluctant to hire future international students the following years, because it's judged as too risky. It's too flighty and unreliable a population. Not only will have such interns wasted money, hospital resources, but also time. They could have hired someone who would have stayed the year (there's plenty of international grads around now), and possibly for years to come. For rural hospitals where retention is huge problem, this particularly important. In high enough numbers, which has happened at certain hospitals and states before, it sends a message to the government that internationals are voluntarily leaving after grad and have no interest in staying. In other words, it signals to them that there's no need, to say, continue programs like CMI or expand places to include internationals.

on the flip side, if past international alumni left a good impression and left a strong legacy, they'd be more likely to hire internationals from their alma mater.
name dropping helps, but only if you really knew them well. so wherever you go, you end up an ambassador for all the internationals at your school that will come after you.

Thank you for sharing your own experience with us.
Actually,ACT(Australia Capital Territory) guarantees that all the students(domestic or international) who graduate from Australia National University with an internship spot in Canberra. But you know, it's a city with only 300,000 population.........

 

[Domperidone]

Yea, it's priority 1 for all international students.
however, it only ever has maybe up to 8 international students a year. There's only one medical school in ACT, it's ANU.
It's also a relatively new school.

The reason why it has this guarantee in place is because up to 40% of their domestic Australian cohort chooses to leave ACT after grad. It's realistic to be able to offer those positions to international students, as many Australians will leave positions in ACT or not take up an internship there. Also, historically, that teeny group of internationals are more loyal than the interstate domestic students who attend ANU.

The caveat is, that if you apply to ACT for internship and are caught applying outside of ACT, whether domestic or international you're moved to the lowest priority group. they've been burned too many times.

Most of the domestic cohort is from interstate and are not from Canberra. Majority of their internationals (the really low number that they have) are Malaysian and Singaporean background, who as a cohort, don't leave during their intern year. The same cannot be said of a large proportion of North American background students.

It is a highly unique situation.
*Which unfortunately does not apply to the few hundred other international students in all the other states of Australia. Minus NT, that does not have a medical school. And it's one that I can't comment on whether it could continue. It would depend highly on what ANU does with future international student numbers. If they for instance, triple their number of international students, it could change. They may not be able to keep that guarantee. And historically again, the Australian states can change their priority groups or how internships are allocated within a year, without warning to either prospectives or current students.

 

[marble30]

Dreams are hard to follow.


The lifestyle can be tough too, after grad and resident/registrar training begins. Hospital based registrars (those in surgery or the medical specialties) work long hours and are shuttled to various hospitals, both rural and metro every 3-6 months. Constantly moving house. That's if you get into something competitive (so virtually everything that isn't psychiatry, pathology or GP), and it can take up to 5-6 years to say get into a surgical program (not guaranteed - requires a lot of resume building - like passing a surgical anatomy exam, taking courses after grad, research). You really, really have to love what you do in some specialities. GP is relatively easier to get into and has a better lifestyle, which has always been the case. Rural GP can be tougher, as you're often the sole doctor in a small town. Most internationals will end up working in rural hospitals as interns (very generally speaking) so you have to be okay with that lifestyle.

Just want to add that in 2015, 2400 people applied for 1500 GP training spots, so it's not as though GP is a shoo-in for anybody that wants a spot. I suppose it's easier than getting onto SET (have known people that have been trying for 8 years!! to get onto the program).

Likewise, it was also difficult finding an RMO spot as an international since most of the big city hospitals (at least in Sydney) won't even bother interviewing you if you don't have PR.

 

[pre med 2014]

If you're of a North American background, many hospitals have been burned by North American background students before. So some will grill you hard about what your future intentions are.
It is much less appealing to them if you have plans to go back. Your chances are cut short, if you intend to apply for the match in either the US or Canada directly after you grad.

This because of timing. The intern year starts in January, the match occurs in March/April and then residency starts in July. This means, anyone who matches in Canada or the US after starting an internship will have to leave it part way, before completing it. It leaves a workforce gap. It's pretty bad if you've pursued a hospital really hard, then dropped them part way into a year, without fulfilling a contract. They made a promise to you, you've broken your end of it.

Also half way through an internship, it's very challenging to find someone to replace that gap.

What would be the process involved for a North American student (specifically a UQ-Ochsner student who graduates this November but is not participating in the match for this year for whatever reason - commonly this reason being due to not having had done Step1, Step 2CS and Step 2CK done in time before the application due dates for this cycle) and decide to fill in one of these gaps (created by another IMG leaving to start residency in US) coming in July with the intention of completing a full intern year July - July (has it ever been done before) while using vacation weeks available to interns ( ~5 weeks?) in the Nov-Dec time to go on interviews in the US for the following year match? Or would it a waste of time for hospitals if you make it clear you are leaving back to home country after doing 1 year internship but one that ends in July means they are left with an empty spot for that following half a year? Are there certain hospital programs that are more known for using the interns as work mules more so than investing energy to teaching and as such they wouldn't have much invested in needing you to stay after intern once they squeezed a good year of labor out of their junior doctor and better still the NA grad leaving would leave less competition for the much needed house officer positions that the Aussie nationals or Canadians who are planning to stay and practice in Aus long term need

I know there is a lot of students in our cohort every year who would be quite willing to work an intern year in Aus and delay entering the match until next year as opposed to those who are "trying to get an AUS spot in case they don't match" in the US and subsequently burning a program by way of leaving midway

And how do you tell if a training site is part of a commonwealth program? As opposed to private, I was always under the assumption UQ-O grads could register for AHPRA and be put into the Queensland Health recruitment system, albeit in last priority cat 6 (which I assume are all commonwealth positions?) and if we are not eligible for commonwealth positions, then why are there UQ grads doing inter years in these commonwealth spots? I apologise if my understanding of the post-grad training system in Aus is so rudimentary I feel like it may be negligent of me not to understand these basic details considering I spent first 2 years studying medicine in Aus!

 

[mcat_taker]

What would be the process involved for a North American student (specifically a UQ-Ochsner student who graduates this November but is not participating in the match for this year for whatever reason - commonly this reason being due to not having had done Step1, Step 2CS and Step 2CK done in time before the application due dates for this cycle) and decide to fill in one of these gaps (created by another IMG leaving to start residency in US) coming in July with the intention of completing a full intern year July - July (has it ever been done before) while using vacation weeks available to interns ( ~5 weeks?) in the Nov-Dec time to go on interviews in the US for the following year match? Or would it a waste of time for hospitals if you make it clear you are leaving back to home country after doing 1 year internship but one that ends in July means they are left with an empty spot for that following half a year? Are there certain hospital programs that are more known for using the interns as work mules more so than investing energy to teaching and as such they wouldn't have much invested in needing you to stay after intern once they squeezed a good year of labor out of their junior doctor and better still the NA grad leaving would leave less competition for the much needed house officer positions that the Aussie nationals or Canadians who are planning to stay and practice in Aus long term need

I know there is a lot of students in our cohort every year who would be quite willing to work an intern year in Aus and delay entering the match until next year as opposed to those who are "trying to get an AUS spot in case they don't match" in the US and subsequently burning a program by way of leaving midway

And how do you tell if a training site is part of a commonwealth program? As opposed to private, I was always under the assumption UQ-O grads could register for AHPRA and be put into the Queensland Health recruitment system, albeit in last priority cat 6 (which I assume are all commonwealth positions?) and if we are not eligible for commonwealth positions, then why are there UQ grads doing inter years in these commonwealth spots? I apologise if my understanding of the post-grad training system in Aus is so rudimentary I feel like it may be negligent of me not to understand these basic details considering I spent first 2 years studying medicine in Aus!

Interesting questions. @Domperidone @pitman

 

[Domperidone]

Interesting questions. @Domperidone @pitman

Oh boy.
So, this is going to be some long rambling, but the point will be that it's not that simple.
There's no magical process. the process is just phoning around every single hospital humanly possible and asking if they'll look at your CV. Or visiting if they offer it to you, even it's a $$ flight up to rural QLD. Or ask what the more clever UQ traditional students are doing. Do what they do.

generally, if you want something, you have to put yourself out there. put the work in.
Don't be lazy, and be brave. You aren't the first either, and you won't be the last. But if you do nothing, I guarantee you will not succeed. Chatting in forums to grads, doesn't count as work either. It's the act of getting in touch directly with hospitals that actually does anything, for yourself. And then not giving up.

I hope no UQ Ochsner student ever does this - not take the Steps (it's 'mandatory' now, but people still manage not to. Ochsner tries it's best to do right by their UQ-O students (unless I start to hear differently). there are the very occasional grads who either fail to match or have to sit out a solid year before matching. the program will help you SOAP or try to give you something (within reason - it won't be a competitive program - think FM, IM, Psych). For the UQ traditional set - it's very DIY. Also, arguably sure, your first two years are in Australia. But they're pre-clinical. You spend the majority of your time in a classroom/tutorial. that's not much of a connection compared to the 2 clinical years you spend in NOLA, fully immersed in the American system 24/7, being molded by their residents and attending on daily, unrelenting basis. I wouldn't fret about needing to know what it's like in Australia, when you spend very little time in an Australian hospital when it counts. Sure there's the observership in first year but no one knows what's going on as first year. The 4th year rotation back in Australia - that's usually treated as step 2 study rotation, which is rightly regarded this way all things considered. Many find it hard to go back to what the Australian system is after their exposure to the American one as a third year.

The minority that choose Australia is such small group it's hard to make generalizations. A big factor tends to be their Australian based significant other.

It's variable in terms of which programs are open to internationals.
one thing that's consistent is the CMI participating hospitals - which i've given a paragraph too all the way a the bottom.

Most hospitals in QLD are not open to UQ Ochsner students because they know you intend to return home, there's already a long (negative) history surrounding this. It's been years, but there's still hospitals that remember it like yesterday when the first cohort of UQ Ochsner students burned QLD. Qhealth remembers it well too, and UQ got flack for that (UQ had 'promised' that none of their UQ-O grads where interested in Australia, which in a sense was true. Interested enough to apply, but not enough to stay). that's why the priority system is the way it is now, you can thank your predecessors and QLD's memory for that.

Not that the Canadians were any better back in the day and it took a lot of work to reverse that reputation with some of the hospitals. To this day though, it's still a screening tool - have you or have you not taken board exams to return home or applied for the match. Anecdotally, there are Canadians who are rejected because they disclose they are taking part in their Canadian match.

The practice of leaving mid year is much less common now. but it still happens. a new hospital decides to take pity on internationals each year, Gold Coast did a couple of years ago, without really interviewing the ones they took and all of the ones they took left part way. I have not heard Gold coast ever taking any more internationals there after. it's been.. 3-4.. or 5 years now?

the only advice I can offer is that you relentless and persistently call around every single hospital in the AMSA intern and resident guide. if they're desperate and have work force gap they'll take you, regardless of your background or intentions. A gap is a gap.

But not all hospitals take people even with a mid year gap. So it's literally a crap shoot.
sometimes they conveniently have enough relieving residents or interns. Also - when you're fresh out of med school, you're an untested, newbie intern they have to train from scratch. It's less appealing than an experienced resident who's also looking to fill a gap somewhere. the UK is rich in residents who come for a 'gap' year, before they start registrar training at home. they've done their intern year equivalent already at home (they do a 2 year 'internship' or foundation years). one of the bottle necks is the Australian intern year, it constricts what the hospitals can do with you too. As an intern year, you have set rotations you have to do, for which the hospital has to supply you with.

it's not necessarily easy to get a midyear spot.
If you're from UQ, you should be fully aware of the late start interns group - those who are graduating behind a rotation. It includes Australians, Canadians, Americans, Singaporeans (just about everybody). A proportion of this group each year finds nothing mid year, even in July. They end up having to sit out until January to start with the interns the year below.

Lol hospitals that don't want you beyond the intern year.
Try asking that question. actually don't, that's one way to not get a job anywhere. Or to not shoot yourself in the ass, try asking them what do they want in an intern (particularly an international one) they hire? what are they looking for?
they all want you to stay, particularly the rural ones. they want you to be their rural generalist (or rural specialist) in their maldistributed medical workforce where there is a constant shortage of rural doctors. even greenslopes wants to keep their good interns AND residents. At minimum, yes they want you to stay the full contract year to avoid workforce gaps.

Commonwealth - refer here: Department of Health | Commonwealth Medical Internships. Or refer to the AMSA guide: AMSA Internship Guide 2017 | Australian Medical Students’ Association. There's a full listing of what the commonwealth hospitals are. Ramsay Health (or Greenslopes) takes the bulk, the rest are in the rural QLD hospitals. like 5 will be in NSW and maybe 10-15 in WA. That's it. Of the rural hospitals, they also take QHealth interns, but these tend to be 'competitive' and highly sought after. For the rather simple reason of being offered 'earlier' in July, with no ROS whereas the CMI ones are deliberately not released until November. UQ traditional students qualify for the CMI. Ochsner students and any other students who do not do 4 years onshore in Australia are not eligible. It's not to be discriminatory, for reasons as stated above. they know the majority of Ochsner students will only use Australia as back up and the match rate is 95-98% or whatever it is now. UQ doesn't hesitate to publish that.

TLR
It's not that simple. We can discuss the nuances of it as much as we want. but I think that's wasting your time. time you could have spent actually make yourself known to people who actually have the power to give you a job. whether in Australia, at Ochsner (back home).

If you do find yourself in need of a job in Australia. The only way to get by is to pick up the phone, call around, send around CVs. that's what your compadres in the UQ traditional program do to just get a internship to start in January.

every year I hear UQ-O students freak out about not matching at home and worry over not having any job assurances in Australia. it's mostly from pre-clinical years though, the worry dissipates when everyone goes to NOLA. Ochsner's historically pretty supportive of their young who make it to grad. if it wasn't meant to be, they would cut you loose before you even finish your degree.

 

[pitman]

All kidding, you're both kings of rambling, and pre med 2014, your incredibly long sentences are exhausting. Dom Perignon has pretty much said it all, and the only additional advice I can give as a wise old man is to be more concise, and punctuated, in your interviews.

Oh, and consider committing to two years in Australia, and tell potential interviewers that that's a minimum (or lie, believably).

 

[pre med 2014]

Ochsner's historically pretty supportive of their young who make it to grad. if it wasn't meant to be, they would cut you loose before you even finish your degree.

this sounds scary! not sure if I heard of this happening to anyone in our year but I also probably don't know everyone in our class.

Anyways, if my Visa expires mid march 2018 does that mean I need to secure a spot before then as I would have to lodge my Long Stay Business 457 visa prior to the expiration of my student visa? Which I imagine I couldn't get unless I had a job secured..

Are phone calls better than e-mails to initiate communications with a program?

 

[Domperidone]

Feel free to PM, if there's something more specific or slightly more personal going on.
then I can try to give more specific advising.

On students dropping out or otherwise from UQO - don't over think this!
It's a rare event, and usually not a surprise.

you would indeed have to have an offer in order to eligible for the 457 (or soon to be defunct 457). it's a sponsored VISA. also contingent on you being employed in Australia.

the alternative is the 485, which costs $2000.
i think after this year, that will be the only option anyway.

In person visits >> phone calls >> emails.
but obviously, do what you're able to do. it's going to be tougher if you're in NOLA.

hospitals more experienced in hiring international students keep a tally of whether you make a visit. whether you've called. how many times you email or call. even if it's months later, they will remember that single visit if you made one for instance.

again, you have a few challenges to contend with:
- you're overseas in a different time zone
- you've done nearly all your clinical years off-shore (with respect to Australia)
- which means you may or may not have Australian referees who can vouch for you during Australian business hours
- You intend to leave mid-year into a contract. Leaving mid year is leaving mid year.
This is potentially how you will be viewed.
You will be almost certainly be compared to a large number of students who spent all 4 years in Australia and have the ability to drive or fly up down the coast with few disruptions. who do intend to stay beyond the intern year. A number will have had rotated through those hospitals before applying for internship, so they have internal referees or connections. Networks, that you won't have, because yours are in NOLA. Long story short, you have to work harder to show commitment to Australia, because everyone else applying will have more evidence to show for this than you do.

Or..just be really damn lucky, you've happened to call the right hospital at the right time. they just had a gap open up and need a warm body to fill it, and you happened to make yourself know. the odds are very slim for this, as there's so many people looking for jobs now.

So hence, being emphatic that if you choose UQO, be sure about it and take all the Steps.
If you were wanting to stay in Australia, ideally that decision should have been considered prior to signing up to UQO. Or, if something changed, the earlier you come to that conclusion the better. To allow for things like setting up rotations in Australia during summer breaks, making the most out of the 4th year rotation in Australia to do your visits, make your networks etc. there's usually a lot of planning involved.

If for some reason it was a last minute issue. As you mentioned before, say someone didn't take the steps all the way up to final year November. I mean. That's a tough call. I'd be tempted to say consider a research year at NOLA or somewhere in the US to liven up your CV for the American Match - if that's the end goal. Definitely talk it over with UQO staff and faculty.

Right, the July-July contract question.
(which I forgot to answer in my prior ramble lol..... )
The Australian intern or RMO working year goes from Feb/Jan to Feb/Jan. There's no such thing as July to July. If they have a mid year gap, the contract for will be from July to Feb/Jan. As July is after the Australian match takes place (which is May-June), potentially you won't even have a contract for anything after Jan/Feb - that's if you're applying for contract after the match closes. Someone else who matched into a full regular will take your place. If you manage to get a Feb/Jan contract and leave July, it doesn't change the fact that it's still leaving part way. And again, intern years are challenging for hospitals to supply compared to resident ones, because there's set rotations that they must give you. residents are more 'flexible' to hire - generally anyway, to hospitals.

Also, remember we're in an oversupply of RMOs.
One bottle neck is at the intern year. So hospitals have more choice in who they can hire or not hire. there's no shortage forcing to accept whatever you can give them.

To be fair, hospitals hate anyone who leave them mid year or just after the match.
even domestic Australian residents who quit part way to take up registrar training.
while your priority is you (this is applicable to any other intern or resident, not trying to put you on the spot). the hospital's priority is staffing, workforce etc. they could have hired someone else they wanted. when they hire midyear, or after the match, you're having to hire the poor pool of people considered the 'left overs'. IMGs with 0 familiarity with Australia. Residents let go of other services at other hospitals or simply didn't strategize their match correctly and got nothing. it also creates more work for them - which they care about. They also prefer to hire people they know, over external applicants - very generally anyway. not really a surprise in this industry.

 

[pre med 2014]

thanks for supplying some valuable info about the process I will send you a PM about the mid year gap scenario

 

[marble30]

Is mid-year entry for JMOs no longer available anywhere? I had a friend who started internship in July 2015 but apparently that option was no longer available from 2016 onwards. I always thought mid-year entry peeps got a full year internship contract too (since how else would you fulfill the requirements for gen registration?) but guess not....

 

[Domperidone]

No, it's always available. It's rarely available as an official part of the regular match.

Well it kinda is part of the regular match in QLD for interns. but those spots are generally filled by regular priority grouping (so domestics first). So, it's rare for internationals to get these. Even then, the domestics have to apply for these spots by calling around, just the same and specifically ask for them. It's not allocated to them in the match upon applying online. It's merit based application, which is not QLD style by the way in the regular intern match under normal circumstances.

Mid-year positions for residents (with rego already) and registrars come out separately advertised by the hospitals as workforce gaps come up. So you can't predict when these gaps will occur or where. Or even what will be offered. You just, stalk the hospital websites, sign up for spam or a head-hunter services. It has its own challenges.

For instance, take a look at the St. vincent's webste: JMO employment | Employment | St Vincent’s Hospital Sydney:

The St Vincent’s Hospital Sydney Junior Medical Officer (JMO) recruitment process takes place yearly with applications opening mid-July until late August. Advertisements for all positions are found on NSW Health’s JMO Jobs website, which also manages applications on behalf of St Vincent’s. Occasionally advertisements will appear for positions that arise during the year

On a quick search, I pulled up this one: eRecruit. If anyone is interested in ED (and is PGY3 with general registration for Australia already), there's an opening at the tweed in NSW.

Again, unfortunately intern year is a bottle neck and harder to fill than a resident (who doesn't need certain rotations). It's rare to see adverts come up for mid-year intern positions on websites, nor would I recommend sitting at home and waiting for ads to come up on a website. It's too high stakes for this group.

There's also simply more movement with residents and registrars. Quite often you have PGY3s, PGY4s etc applying for registrar positions, they don't get it in the initial reg match. something opens up later, they take that. they leave their resident spot open. It's not uncommon, so you have hospitals that will have a pool of relieving residents that's larger at the end of the year than at the start.

Or say, a resident who didn't get what they actually wanted in the initial match or looking to move up the ranks sooner, it's like having a bonus round. the mid-year openings. You have your contract already, it may not be the one you want, but you got it. Then wait to see if something better comes up. Does it burn bridges with the hospital you originally signed up for, yes, it does. They may never hire you again. Unless their workforce employees change over, they generally have a long memory for these things.

It's not like the intern year, you have requirements to fulfill, you're stuck where you are, unless you drop out or get fired, or match in north america and ditch (which is becoming a more rare occurrence). Hospitals in general, are much angrier about those who leave intern positions mid-year, because they're fully aware of the bottle-neck. It's been around for years.

Contracts-wise, it's a little more complex.
in general, what they try to do is sign the RMO for the remainder of a regular year. for residents it doesn't matter as much, they just re-apply for the match or try to get a contract for the full regular year after they're done.

For interns however, it's signing for the remainder months, whether it's March to Jan/Feb or July to Jan/Feb. Then re-signing a second new contract the following year to cover the remaining intern months, and also a '3rd' contract, covering the left over months as a "PGY2" at that particular hospital. They get them to sign both at the same time when the regular match is released. Typically. That intern then catches up with their cohort (or kinda) by that next Jan. Hospital doesn't have a gap. the intern isn't left in a lurch either, forced to look for a mid-year, after position again as a PGY2. Because for the second year in a row, they will miss out on participating in the regular Australian match again.

That means if they want to leave the hospital they did their intern year in, they either wait to catch up to their cohort. Or have to apply a mid-year PGY2 resident somewhere else, by waiting for something to come up. Take a risk, but it will relatively easier. Again, hospitals don't like gaps either. Unless you were terrible, they will want that contract covering the rest of the year. It's easier keeping someone familiar with their system then starting over.

Addit:
I hadn't considered this before:
But, I suppose technically, an American (or Canadian) who misses out on the matches in North America could try to get a mid-year or late start intern position and just sign for the March or July-Feb contract. then nicely say, they'll turn down next year's contract, in order to do the match at home. Not complete the intern year. Or negotiate the contracts you pick up the follow year, so you don't have to be tied down more than you need to be. Either way, picking up any contract when you want to match back, will make it tricky for interviews. Leave for that also has to be negotiated.

And again, there is that inherent risk that the hospital would rather hire someone able to stay longer than those months. Why go through all that work as outlined above when you can hire someone else looking. There's always going to be interns coming from QLD desperately looking for mid year spots, who do want to be part of Australia permanently. We're in oversupply, hospitals have choices.

Look at it another way, someone easier to hire is more attractive and more "entitled" if Australia is their only option (hospitals arent devoid of ethics). Home country will never take them back, or family and love life is in Aus etc. Its a huge spectrum. Just that on SDN, sample size is overwhelming American. In reality, Americans form the minority of internationals in Australia, overall. Different states and schools will different proportions of students from a particular nationality.

This is hypothetically speaking. So for any North Americans looking at this, you won't know till you try. And so, try, try your best. Don't give up.

For UQO grads - always talk to UQO in NOLA first about your options. Ochsner is your home hospital and not "Australia".

 

[BabaJay]

Hi guys, I'm new here and this is my first post.

Here's my situation:
I'm a 35 year old African male. I'm migrating to Aussie within the coming months on a SC489 visa sponsored by the NT government, I will transition to the SC887 PR visa after completing my mandatory two years obligation.

I want to pursue my life's dream of becoming a doctor. I already have a first degree in Medical Laboratory Science and I have two M.Sc degrees in Public Health and Healthcare Management plus 10 years of work experience as a medical laboratory scientist. I have been assessed by the Australian Institute of Medical Scientists (AIMS) as a Medical Laboratory Technician and I can only be assessed as a Medical Laboratory Scientist, once I sit and pass the AIMS certification exams. I intend to sit for the exam in March 2019.

I intend to settle permanently in either the NT or QLD but the NT does not have any medical school.

I need advice on the best medical school to apply to, considering my educational background and work experience to ensure I get accepted. Also when should I sit for my GAMSAT exams and what's the earliest I can get accepted into a medical school once I pass my GAMSAT? Is there any other thing I need to know with regards to applying to Australian medical schools? Will I be considered as an International student since I'm on a 489 visa and not on a PR visa yet? Do I wait till I get my 887 visa before applying to any medical school, so as to pay domestic fees?

All advice will be highly appreciated.

 

[Domperidone]

I responded to your PM, not sure if you've checked yet?

GAMSAT
- look up individual school requirements on this
- then look up or Google GAMSAT dates. the official site will list them
- I did not take the GAMSAT (I took the much MCAT - which you can take but is relatively harder) so I can't comment on this

If you do not have PR you will be an international student. That simple.

On whether to wait:
- if you choose to get PR, correct about reduced fees
- relatively easier to obtain a job after school as generally domestic students are prioritized
- however, it is more competitive for domestic students with PR to get into a medical school - something to consider (as these students are not full fee paying). So you may have a harder times getting into one with PR
- you could get in as international then get PR. It may not change tuition fees. And is state dependent on obtaining internship on whether you would be considered domestic

Rather than having the mindset of 'I must apply to the best school.."
- take the GAMSAT and see how you score
- check school requirements
- figure out which schools you are eligible to apply to
- apply widely, decide based on acceptances
There aren't that many schools in Australia, even though it has tripled in recent times. It's not like the USA where there's hundreds upon hundreds and you need to decide on a select number to realistically apply to.

 

[Laetare]

I intend to settle permanently in either the NT or QLD but the NT does not have any medical school.

Flinders University offers the Doctor of Medicine course in the NT. I'm not allowed to insert a link but a search for "northern territory medical program" will show it.

 

[Domperidone]

Flinders University offers the Doctor of Medicine course in the NT. I'm not allowed to insert a link but a search for "northern territory medical program" will show it.

Good find! Unfortunately the eligibility may be restricted:
Opportunities for Northern Territory applicants

Preference is given to students who are NT residents and Indigenous Territorians. Other Australians may apply and will be considered if there are insufficient numbers of eligible NT and/or Indigenous applicants.

A NT resident is defined as a person who, at the time of commencement of the medical course, is an Australian citizen or permanent resident and who has:

• resided with a permanent address in the Northern Territory for a total of at least two years out of the last six years; or
• resided with a permanent address in the Northern Territory for a total of at least five years since commencing primary school.

For non-Indigenous applicants to the NTMP, the admissions process is similar to that for applications to the program in Adelaide.

 

[pitman]

South Australia has a long history of supplying docs to the NT, and since that program is through Flinders -- which incidentally was the first med school here to go graduate in order to take advantage of the N. American market -- I'd bet that students at Flinders would have the option of doing a number of rotatons in NT particularly since they'd be sharing other resources..Obviously call and check this out, but it looks promising to me.

 

[Futmob]

Yea, it's priority 1 for all international students.
however, it only ever has maybe up to 8 international students a year. There's only one medical school in ACT, it's ANU.
It's also a relatively new school.

The reason why it has this guarantee in place is because up to 40% of their domestic Australian cohort chooses to leave ACT after grad. It's realistic to be able to offer those positions to international students, as many Australians will leave positions in ACT or not take up an internship there. Also, historically, that teeny group of internationals are more loyal than the interstate domestic students who attend ANU.

The caveat is, that if you apply to ACT for internship and are caught applying outside of ACT, whether domestic or international you're moved to the lowest priority group. they've been burned too many times.

Most of the domestic cohort is from interstate and are not from Canberra. Majority of their internationals (the really low number that they have) are Malaysian and Singaporean background, who as a cohort, don't leave during their intern year. The same cannot be said of a large proportion of North American background students.

It is a highly unique situation.
*Which unfortunately does not apply to the few hundred other international students in all the other states of Australia. Minus NT, that does not have a medical school. And it's one that I can't comment on whether it could continue. It would depend highly on what ANU does with future international student numbers. If they for instance, triple their number of international students, it could change. They may not be able to keep that guarantee. And historically again, the Australian states can change their priority groups or how internships are allocated within a year, without warning to either prospectives or current students.

Hi, speaking from 6 years later. do you think during this 6 years internship did become alot more competitive? it looks to me that from government report seems every international students here do ends up getting an internship. Could you please give some insight on how things went over this 6 years?