Internship difficulties

[JKIM02]

Hey all, Ive just started an internship at a specialty/ER hospital. Im about 7 weeks in and Im having a lot of difficulties. Im obviously not sleeping much (it is an internship afterall) but I find that when im nervous or incredibly overwhelmed I cant think straight. At this point I dont know how I possibly even graduated vet school because I cant even remember half the things Ive learned.
I feel like the doctors dont trust me at all and I am definitely the "weak link" of the group (there are 9 of us). I am currently on ER, and they get so busy I find myself managing multiple cases at a time before the ER resident/doctors come in at noon. When they come in, they seem disappointed in my medical decisions.
To top it all off a good chunk of the doctors use the tough love approach and/or I can hear them talking about me with some of the surgery residents either making fun of me or talking about me to each other. I am trying my hardest and I wont quit since it will really leave my intern mates in a bind but I feel like such a piece of **** now that I honestly dont know why i even decided to be a vet in the first place.

Obviously I am having difficulties and I truly do believe it will get better. I know internships are difficult and I can be a rather sensitive soul but how do you guys get through all the bull **** first. I am so frustrated with myself right now that I have trouble thinking things through and feel as though I am getting dumber by the day. Has anyone else gone through this and what did u do to survive?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hey all, Ive just started an internship at a specialty/ER hospital. Im about 7 weeks in and Im having a lot of difficulties. Im obviously not sleeping much (it is an internship afterall) but I find that when im nervous or incredibly overwhelmed I cant think straight. At this point I dont know how I possibly even graduated vet school because I cant even remember half the things Ive learned.
I feel like the doctors dont trust me at all and I am definitely the "weak link" of the group (there are 9 of us). I am currently on ER, and they get so busy I find myself managing multiple cases at a time before the ER resident/doctors come in at noon. When they come in, they seem disappointed in my medical decisions.
To top it all off a good chunk of the doctors use the tough love approach and/or I can hear them talking about me with some of the surgery residents either making fun of me or talking about me to each other. I am trying my hardest and I wont quit since it will really leave my intern mates in a bind but I feel like such a piece of **** now that I honestly dont know why i even decided to be a vet in the first place.

Obviously I am having difficulties and I truly do believe it will get better. I know internships are difficult and I can be a rather sensitive soul but how do you guys get through all the bull **** first. I am so frustrated with myself right now that I have trouble thinking things through and feel as though I am getting dumber by the day. Has anyone else gone through this and what did u do to survive?

Ok....that sounds like a slightly toxic environment to me. People who are supposed to be mentoring you should not treat you in that manner. That is unprofessional. Everyone has different learning curves and they are there to HELP you. That isn't tough love (I got "tough love" all through residency and none of it involved my superiors making fun of me behind my back), that is just being a dick. This does not sounds like a positive environment conducive to learning for you if the attendings and residents are acting like high-schoolers while you struggle. I don't mean poking a little fun to my face, hey, we all do that. But it sounds like it is a bit more than that. What types of things to they say?

As for your decisions, don't be too down on yourself. You have only been there for 7 weeks, they can't expect you to be an expert. It is very common to feel like you know nothing. For the first year of my residency I felt like a complete idiot. If you decided to leave, do you have options elsewhere? Don't think about leaving your intern mates in a bind - YOU have to come first. Something a lot of us in medicine do is constantly put others first at the expense of our own sanity. Yes, it might suck a little for them for a while if they are down by one person, but you should not sacrifice your mental well-being for other people. Never.

Are there people you can talk to outside of work? A therapist even? Internships and residencies can be brutal and having support is essential. Do you have a good relationship with any of the residents or clinicians, enough that you could talk to them in private about how you are feeling?

And as for the "I'm not sleeping much, it is an internship after all" ...how much are you sleeping exactly? How many hours do you work? Do you have enough time to do normal life activities and decompress? There is a reason that in human medicine, they have hour caps now for residents and interns. If you are overworked, you will fail. It will drive you down. Do not accept being excessively overworked as just "part of being in an internship" - there is definitely a limit. It will begin to affect your health and your performance.

 

[MassDVMMPH]

I agree - an internship is supposed to be about mentoring, not mocking. You are being very generous in calling their behavior "tough love" - it is actually more like psychological abuse. What kind of reputation does this internship have? Did you have the opportunity to speak to previous interns at this facility before you signed on? Unfortunately, lots of internships are just abusive exploitation, and I'm inclined to think you've ended up at one of those. The people you are working under obviously have no clue what true mentoring is. It can be hard to find in the veterinary industry, but don't settle for the way you're being treated. You've worked too hard to settle for being miserable in your career.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

This is not a professional environment and the clinicians there obviously do not understand the need for decorum/mentoring in veterinary medicine. If you are considering leaving your internship, I would read your contract carefully and maybe even get some legal advice(labor attorneys are the best) especially if there are any adverse effects upon you. From my own legal battles with a practice, practices may engage in constructive dismissal in which they create an adverse situation so bad as to force an employee to quit which then frees them from having to pay unemployment benefits. I have seen this happen to three veterinarians working for a corporate veterinary practice (and that is all legally I will say!).

 

[JKIM02]

Hey guys. Thanks for your reply. I talked to one of the ER residents today and expressed my feelings about how I felt like such a disappointment everytime someone came on after Ive been alone for a few hours and he was understanding. They dont mean to give the impression of disappointment and they understand that we are learning. I told him that I do try my hardest and I do have rationale for everything that I do even if I end up being wrong. They said they will try to teach more but that its not just me thats making mistakes. He is one of the more understanding of the bunch which is why i chose to talk to him first. I think some of the clinicians arent as understanding initially about mistakes made (ie giving eachother looks when i forget to rectal an animal or something) but I am trying to take it in a positive manner and try to learn from my mistakes.
As far as the "tough love" approach, the senior internists/surgeons definitely like to either yell or mock you when you say something dumb (which unfortunately happens alot to me when im nervous). Thats something that will probably never change but hopefully it will toughen me up.
I am sleeping as much as i can but I did have a horrible week where I slept 15 hours in 6 days. That was incredibly rough and thats what started my downward spiral. I just need to try to be more efficient with my time and all the horrible paperwork that piles up when the days are busy. At the moment im taking it as though I have the 'yips' but im trying to work through it.

I do believe everything happens for a reason and theres a reason why I am here. So far Im hoping im here to toughen up (I can be sensitive sometimes) as well as learn as much as I can. I am gonna try my damned hardest to stick it out because I do feel like I will learn a lot from this place, regardless of if its via tough love or via mistakes.

I did briefly speak with the previous interns as we rotated in and they rotated out. They were brutally honest and said that we would all hate the next year of our lives but we will definitely learn alot. I hope I take the most out of this internship if possible even if I get yelled at. If i do hear others talk about me or laugh about me I do (hopefully) plan on growing a pair and standing up for myself. I agree with what yall said. there is no need for that especially when they just leave us there high and dry alone.

I really do appreciate everyones concern. I did have a decent day today so Im sure my opinion will change on my bad days but im learning and trying my hardest. Thats all that i can do.

 

[MassDVMMPH]

15 hours in 6 days?!! That is ridiculous (that's less than 3 hours per day) - no one can think straight on that little sleep and, quite frankly, I wouldn't want anyone working on my own pet who had had that little sleep. They need to hire more people at that place if you need to be working that many hours to get your work done. Have you actually figured out how much you got paid per hour that week? And how much money your clients were paying for your services? Doing so might provide you with the motivation necessary to stand up to your abusers (because that's what they are). I know someone who just completed an internship at a private specialty/ER practice and she had a fixed schedule of 40 hours per week (I'm not saying that she didn't have to occasionally go over that), but there's no way she was putting in the hours you are.

 

[cbarne01]

I am not an intern or a vet, but last year I worked with 6 interns. It takes at least 2 cycles for them to sort everything out in each rotation and then start to get familiar and comfortable. SOme of them make the same mistake multiple times and the clinicians are of the "tough love" crowd too. Yelling is not uncommon and we all just try to figure out what we're supposed to be learning from it and then wait until we're allowed to fix it. I'm writing this so you know that you're not alone, I suspect that this culture is rather common. I hope that its changing but probably not soon enough for you this year.
Give it time. Ask someone who's already done your rotation to give you some tips. Eat. Go somewhere else for a day to just be away. You will find your footing, I promise.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Yelling and screaming make me think these " professionals" are emotionally closer to spoiled bratty children than adults. I worked for a vet like this who constantly berated staff in public and even pulled a technician into a back room screaming at her for doing something I had asked her to do. She should have had him arrested.

 

[JKIM02]

This place just ****s with my head so much. Overheard some of the surgery doctors talking **** about me today. Saying how I left a dog in the hospital for four hours and made clients wait. We were incredibly busy that morning and it was just me. The senior surgeon yelled at me in front of everyone in the treatment room for making them wait. I was trying my hardest to get the animal out of the hospital but everyone has to leave w the discharge ( I dont have the authority to send them home w/o one although it happens on occasion). It is just me in the mornin for 6 hours. Anyways, that same morning a back dog came in and neuro is not my strong suit (amongst many others) and I asked one of the sx residents for advice on the dog. yes, my assessment of the dog was wrong w some aspects which is why i asked him for help before misinforming the client. Well this morning i overheard that same resident saying how i got my assessment alll wrong. I did not want to hear anymore so I walked away from the situation. I understand they dont like me and it makes me so nervous because I have sx rotation next and I know im going to get annihilated if im not on top of my game. I can study my hardest when the rotation comes but i just feel like they have the worst first impression of me that I dont know if I can get past that. I feel so incredibly belittled and worthless sometimes when im there I feel like i am dvlping some ****ed up self worth issues. Sorry for all the cursing. and the venting. but I appreciate you guys just hearing me out.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

No problem at all. This is what we are here for.

This sounds like an awful environment, honestly. You need to make sure to put yourself first. At this point, I woul be looking fo other opportunities. And if you were to quit - do NOT think you are giving up. You are not wussing out - you are removing yourself, a good and dedictated intern who wants to learn - from a toxic environment, Do not be afraid to put yourself first, ever. An attending yelling at you in front of everyone is not "tough love" - that is someone on a power trip who is seeking to tear you down in front of others.

If you want to PM me for some venting, I am always available

 

[MassDVMMPH]

How in the world do they justify leaving an intern alone for 6 hours? You are supposed to be getting mentoring at this place - that is why you are consenting to work for such crappy pay. Mentoring implies that there is someone else present to answer questions and guide you if you start going in the wrong direction on a case. Mentoring is not leaving you alone for 6 hours and then coming in and screaming at you because you did something wrong during those hours. Heck, you would get better mentoring at most regular jobs than you're getting at that place. I don't know too many owners who would leave a new graduate alone in their practice for 6 hours a day - maybe a couple of hours at most with the owner's cell phone number to call if they need help. You need to get into a new situation before this job destroys your desire to be a veterinarian at all.

 

[dyachei]

JKIM - that sounds like a malignant program. I agree with WTF - you should see what options are there for other opportunities. Is your ultimate goal a residency?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

How in the world do they justify leaving an intern alone for 6 hours? You are supposed to be getting mentoring at this place - that is why you are consenting to work for such crappy pay. Mentoring implies that there is someone else present to answer questions and guide you if you start going in the wrong direction on a case. Mentoring is not leaving you alone for 6 hours and then coming in and screaming at you because you did something wrong during those hours. Heck, you would get better mentoring at most regular jobs than you're getting at that place. I don't know too many owners who would leave a new graduate alone in their practice for 6 hours a day - maybe a couple of hours at most with the owner's cell phone number to call if they need help. You need to get into a new situation before this job destroys your desire to be a veterinarian at all.

Agreed. A more experienced intern being left by themselves for that amount of time and with multiple patients isn't out of the ordinary, but he/she has been there less than two months. Dyachei and Mass, when you started at your first clinic, when did they start leaving you alone like this? That just seems like too much too fast for me.

It sounds like they are understaffed and are trying to shift the work to OP.

 

[MassDVMMPH]

I was the third vet at my first practice and the schedule overlapped so that there were always two vets on at any one time. I did have to do emergency call on my own (no techs or anybody - just me and the clients) after 6 months - twice a week overnights (12 hours each) and one to two Sundays (24 hours each) a month. But my boss lived practically next door and if I really needed him, he was usually just a phone call away (I only remember having to call him once).

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I was the third vet at my first practice and the schedule overlapped so that there were always two vets on at any one time. I did have to do emergency call on my own (no techs or anybody - just me and the clients) after 6 months - twice a week overnights (12 hours each) and one to two Sundays (24 hours each) a month. But my boss lived practically next door and if I really needed him, he was usually just a phone call away (I only remember having to call him once).

Yeah, see, after 6 months I'd say being on call alone is fine. But after less than two months and a brand-new intern straight our of school, with no attending clinician....that sounds like understaffing to me.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

This place just ***** with my head so much. Overheard some of the surgery doctors talking **** about me today. Saying how I left a dog in the hospital for four hours and made clients wait. We were incredibly busy that morning and it was just me. The senior surgeon yelled at me in front of everyone in the treatment room for making them wait. I was trying my hardest to get the animal out of the hospital but everyone has to leave w the discharge ( I dont have the authority to send them home w/o one although it happens on occasion). It is just me in the mornin for 6 hours. Anyways, that same morning a back dog came in and neuro is not my strong suit (amongst many others) and I asked one of the sx residents for advice on the dog. yes, my assessment of the dog was wrong w some aspects which is why i asked him for help before misinforming the client. Well this morning i overheard that same resident saying how i got my assessment alll wrong. I did not want to hear anymore so I walked away from the situation. I understand they dont like me and it makes me so nervous because I have sx rotation next and I know im going to get annihilated if im not on top of my game. I can study my hardest when the rotation comes but i just feel like they have the worst first impression of me that I dont know if I can get past that. I feel so incredibly belittled and worthless sometimes when im there I feel like i am dvlping some ****** up self worth issues. Sorry for all the cursing. and the venting. but I appreciate you guys just hearing me out.

I really hate that policy. It slows everything up when you need to give them a physical discharge. Our teaching hospital offers emailed discharges and I think it's a great thing. Students can essentially finish them while clients are driving home and they'll have it when they get there, no waiting around.

 

[dyachei]

Agreed. A more experienced intern being left by themselves for that amount of time and with multiple patients isn't out of the ordinary, but he/she has been there less than two months. Dyachei and Mass, when you started at your first clinic, when did they start leaving you alone like this? That just seems like too much too fast for me.

It sounds like they are understaffed and are trying to shift the work to OP.

Well, I worked for corporate and had my first solo day the 2nd month of work. We were short-staffed though.

 

[racccjlm]

JKIM, I hear your frustrations, and can empathize with some of them (and certainly sympathize with the rest). I am also doing an internship right now. My message box is also open if you need anyone else to talk to. So sorry to hear about the situation that you're in.

 

[JKIM02]

Understaffed is an understatement. And the funny thing is there are SO many people that work there. (I believe we were told during our 2 day orientation that theres 100+ ppl that work there). One of our rotations involve overnights 6p till 9+am (whenever int med is done rounding + whatever paperwork needs to be done). My first overnight solo was like my third week in. They have one overnight dr that works 3x/week from 6p to 4a (and gets paid 100k might i add). They always say "you can always call us in the middle of the night" but they always add that we have to know everything about the pt before we call. I think that is fair for the most part BUT wtf do we do if a coyote attk comes in the middle of the night and theres so time? I do think patient care suffers because of this. on ON we are in charge of all the pt that come in as well as every patient in the hospital incl ICU patients. this number can avg from 12 to 20+ on any given night). The only time we are NOT responsible as interns is if a ventilator case is in the hospital. (THANK GOD haha).

Today was definitely a better day because 1. we werent as busy and 2. Two of the clinician/resident that definitely arent a fan of me werent there today. Days like today make me feel like I can do this.

I was interested in surgery when I started this rotation but I dont think any sort of residency is in the cards for me at this point. I dont think I could mentally handle the stress. They say one person can do anything for a year but for 3+/-1 more year? I dont think I can do that.

I am on day ER now and there are definitely clinicians around during the morning hours so I am not technically alone. Everyone else is working and seeing their own patients and I am supposed to ask them questions when i do but as far as seeing ER patients I am the only ER doctor from 6a to 12p. Overnight shift dr is alone though and with one of the IM doctors being the 'tough love' type, it sure is awesome being yelled at for things u did wrong overnight in the morning after working for 14 hours.

You guys are all incredibly kind and i appreciate you letting me whine/vent to you. I still plan on sticking it out.. just need to dvlp a thicker skin at times. Just because it feels like high school shouldnt mean I should let it be like high school.

 

[Beetlejay]

Wow, I'm sorry you are going through such a tough time! I finished my internship 2 years ago and have blocked out a lot of the bad memories but in thinking back, even my worst days don't sound like they compare to yours! You are a new grad and chose to do an internship to get mentoring and better yourself as a clinician, no one should disrespect you. All of those doctors have made mistakes when they first started and I'm sure they still do. My biggest piece of advice is to eat well, go for walks and SLEEP. My intern mates and I had an unwritten rule, that if one of us was overwhelmed we would cover and let that person go take a 20 min walk/break. It was what kept me sane. Anyways just know that you have a community here supporting you. An internship is tough, but it shouldn't be so tough that your health and well being is suffering. Keep us posted!

 

[dyachei]

I was interested in surgery when I started this rotation but I dont think any sort of residency is in the cards for me at this point. I dont think I could mentally handle the stress. They say one person can do anything for a year but for 3+/-1 more year? I dont think I can do that.

I just wanted to point out that if you are truly interested in surgery, you should remember that not all programs are like this 1 internship.

 

[Kpowell14]

Hey @JKIM02, I'm very sorry to read your struggles. Just out of curiousity, did you match at this hospital or did you apply after the match? Did you know much about this program before you applied or put them down on the match?

I see myself potentially attempting to Match when the time comes and this just sounds awful and scary.

To everyone else- what would be the best way to evaluate potential internship opportunities- their reputation, quality or mentorship etc.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hey @JKIM02, I'm very sorry to read your struggles. Just out of curiousity, did you match at this hospital or did you apply after the match? Did you know much about this program before you applied or put them down on the match?

I see myself potentially attempting to Match when the time comes and this just sounds awful and scary.

To everyone else- what would be the best way to evaluate potential internship opportunities- their reputation, quality or mentorship etc.

1. Visit the program if at all possible.

2. Don't focus on talking just to the clinicians. Talk to the interns. Talk to the staff. Those two groups of people are the ones most likely to give you a reality based assessment of the program.

3. Caseload.

4. Attrition rate (if available)

5. Number of people and ratio of interns to doctors


I'd say those would be my top five.

Mentorship would be the number one quality I would look for.

 

[Kpowell14]

1. Visit the program if at all possible.

2. Don't focus on talking just to the clinicians. Talk to the interns. Talk to the staff. Those two groups of people are the ones most likely to give you a reality based assessment of the program.

3. Caseload.

4. Attrition rate (if available)

5. Number of people and ratio of interns to doctors


I'd say those would be my top five.

Mentorship would be the number one quality I would look for.

Thank you for your response WTF, you always have great advice

In the very beginning of the process whats the best way to pick out places you are even interested in visiting/ could be interested in? There are so many practices that participate in the match, where do you begin lol

(sorry if this doesnt make since, my post surgery meds have me a little loopy)

 

[variegata]

Thank you for your response WTF, you always have great advice

In the very beginning of the process whats the best way to pick out places you are even interested in visiting/ could be interested in? There are so many practices that participate in the match, where do you begin lol

(sorry if this doesnt make since, my post surgery meds have me a little loopy)

If you do a program search on the match website, this past year's program info I think should still be on there. Obviously, some new things may be available this year or some places may not have a program anymore, but it's a place to start. Definitely try to talk to interns. I visited one place before applying and ended up not applying there after talking to some of the interns.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Thank you for your response WTF, you always have great advice

In the very beginning of the process whats the best way to pick out places you are even interested in visiting/ could be interested in? There are so many practices that participate in the match, where do you begin lol

(sorry if this doesnt make since, my post surgery meds have me a little loopy)

That's a tough one for me, as path programs are relatively few (about one per vet school and a handful of others) and do not go through the match - we're "special" hehe. I would also consider location. That was a big reason I chose to move back home after residency and continue my PhD training here - the people were amazing and I miss them dearly, but the weather (i.e. extreme heat) was causing my already overzealous immune system to go berserk and I was in pain a lot of the time. And also salary dependent on location. A friend of mine got offered an internship in NYC and they offered 23k. To live in NYC. No way. Location happiness (or at least tolerance) and maintaining a basic standard of living are very important.

 

[david594]

To everyone else- what would be the best way to evaluate potential internship opportunities- their reputation, quality or mentorship etc.

Visit the hospital and meet the doctors and staff. It will tell you a lot. And then finally talk to all the interns(particularly at the end of the year). They will probably be able to give you the most honest thoughts on the program.

For the reputation of a program ask pretty much any specialist you know if they are familiar with the program and their thoughts on it. Veterinary medicine is still fairly small and you will likely find a few people who know the places you are considering.

 

[Kpowell14]

Visit the hospital and meet the doctors and staff. It will tell you a lot. And then finally talk to all the interns(particularly at the end of the year). They will probably be able to give you the most honest thoughts on the program.

For the reputation of a program ask pretty much any specialist you know if they are familiar with the program and their thoughts on it. Veterinary medicine is still fairly small and you will likely find a few people who know the places you are considering.

Thank you for the input @david594 . I will make sure I talk to clinicians / residents about different programs!

 

[psilovethomas]

Visit the hospital and meet the doctors and staff. It will tell you a lot. And then finally talk to all the interns(particularly at the end of the year). They will probably be able to give you the most honest thoughts on the program.

For the reputation of a program ask pretty much any specialist you know if they are familiar with the program and their thoughts on it. Veterinary medicine is still fairly small and you will likely find a few people who know the places you are considering.

Aren't you at MSU? I'm sure I will be seeing you a lot- I work for ECCM on the ERAD team

 

[shortnsweet]

Agreed. A more experienced intern being left by themselves for that amount of time and with multiple patients isn't out of the ordinary, but he/she has been there less than two months. Dyachei and Mass, when you started at your first clinic, when did they start leaving you alone like this? That just seems like too much too fast for me.

It sounds like they are understaffed and are trying to shift the work to OP.

They've started letting us having primary call...but we are required to call in a tech after hours. We assess, then call the attending and tell them everything and our plan, and they come in if they feel like they need to. And during regular hours pretty much everything goes through an attending. I feel like a big vet with training wheels as opposed to the baby vet I did a month ago. It's a good progression for me.

 

[lei325]

Not going to add too much to the conversation, since some great advice has already been offered. But I do know how you feel. I'm doing an equine internship and within the first two weeks was told that the way they do things at this internship is to break you then build you back up. And I get that. But what you're going through is more than just breaking you down; it's almost like they're trying to destroy you. They're not helping you learn, they're making fun of you and yelling at you. I'm lucky in that my supervising surgeon is mostly understanding and tries to foster a fun environment (we all joke around a lot) but still can remain serious when necessary. But f*************k are the hours long and unforgiving. If you don't think you're getting a good experience, I would definitely look at your options and see if there is a way out. If you're not going to learn or get any kind of mentoring here, it's not worth busting your ass getting zero sleep. Not healthy. I hope everything works out for you. If you need an additional vent outlet, my inbox is open.

 

[nyanko]

I have good days and bad days, and the bad days can be quite bad. But the bad days end, and honestly the good days probably outnumber them. For me, my internmates are the absolute best support group, followed by a handful of the technicians. Gotta just let the BS roll off of you if you're going to make it through the year. Try to do what's right by your patients and try not to be offended or think it means you screwed up if your diagnoses aren't spot on or if your senior changes your treatment plan - that's learning which is part of why you signed up for an internship, right?

 

[vetneuroperson]

My internship was like this. One of my internmates ended up moving to Taiwan a week after the internship ended (seriously) and decided she didn't want to be a vet. My roomate/internmate came home crying at least once a week from people riding her. I swore that if I ever saw one particular clinician again I would tell this person they are the worst person I've ever met (among other things).

It freaking sucks but honestly, it's only 1 year. Gotta just put your head down and use your anger to motivate you into being a better doctor. I know its hard, really I do. But you'll be ok.

The one thing I would caution you against is turning into these people. You'd be surprised how much influence their behavior could have on you later down the road. I'm about 5 years removed from my internship, and I've had moments where I catch myself basically turning into those people during stressful situations and what not. It's like abused children growing up to abuse their own children. It's crazy really.