Internship/Residency in Australia for a Canadian citizen.?!?!

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docmira

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Help...
i've been accepted to university of Tasmania in Australia.
The program starts in Feb so I need to make a decision soon.
The acceptance letter says that the school does not guarantee internship/residency places for foreign students.
I contacted the College of Physicians in canada and they say it really difficult to get places in canada..

If anyone has advice on what a Canadian citizen can do once they graduate from Med school in Australia pleeeaase tell me!!!
Thanks!

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Hi:

It is difficult for foreign medical graduates (or FMG) to find residency placements in Canadian schools because they are only eligible to enter the second round of placements through CARMS. The placement ratio hovered around the 10-15% of FMG in the past 10 years with some years as low as 5%.

The competition is very stiff with many people trying 6 or 7 times before finally giving up. It is not all grim, though. Those educated in Australia tend to have a solid foundation in PBL vs didactic teaching and may fare better in the multitudes of exams that you have to do to be 'eligible' to apply.

There is also the United States for residency, although with yearly threats to cut the residency places, this may severely limit those who seek medical education outside of North America.

You said you've been accepted to the University of Tasmania? I guess it is a 5 or 6 year program, and I am assuming that you have just finished high school or may a year or two of undergrad. I would seriously look into North American schools because the costs are comparable with nothing of the headaches and the stigma. Just my $0.02 worth.

Good luck to you whatever your choice may be.


Originally posted by docmira:
•Help...
i've been accepted to university of Tasmania in Australia.
The program starts in Feb so I need to make a decision soon.
The acceptance letter says that the school does not guarantee internship/residency places for foreign students.
I contacted the College of Physicians in canada and they say it really difficult to get places in canada..

If anyone has advice on what a Canadian citizen can do once they graduate from Med school in Australia pleeeaase tell me!!!
Thanks!•••
 
docmira...

just a little aside...even if you were to obtain certain that you would be able to secure employment in THAT country after completion.

Do not assume that doing residency there will an internship/residency in NZ/Oz, be aware that in most cases it will NOT transfer to the US (I cannot comment on Canada). Therefore, should you wish to become board certified in your field in the US, you would be required to repeat all of your residency. Thus, you should only consider doing residency training in NZ/Oz if you are nearly automatically allow you entry in the US work force or advanced training (usually you can get fellowships in the US after having done foreign residencies, although you must still be ECFMG certified [with all that entails], but if you desire to come to the US after doing 1 year as an intern be advised that you will most likely have to repeat that year).

My Canadian classmates are doing US residencies.

best of luck...
 
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Yeah Dr. Cox is right

You will have to repeat all your residency in the U.S., UNLESS if your are an ENT in NZ/AU. ENT board of U.S. does recognize the ENT training here BUT some restrictions apply(don't know what they are). But then if you have the academic capabilities to get into the training program of ENT in Aus, then you should have no problem getting it in the U.S. even if you are an IMG. Somehow, almost ALL the specialities here are SO HARD to get. I might be branching off the topic but I think the U.S. is very generous in offering the opportunities for specializing. One of my pediatric tutor did her residency at Boston Children(Harvard)after her medical school at melbourne but still failed to get into the board of pediatric in Australia after all her training at Boston. Strange? It's a pitty that they made everything so much harder in Australia.
 
To docmira:

Hi, I am Canadian, and I will give you my bit of advice. I haven't got into med school yet, but I will be applying to St. George's and some in the states, since UT and Western are so not going to accept me. Anyhow, getting a residency in Canada after attending a foreign medical school is virtually impossible, don't count on it, and you shouldn't go into med school thinking you will be able to get a residency back home. And if that sounds bad enough, being Canadian, we have our own Visa problems with the States, so getting a residency in the States will be tough also, compared to U.S citizens, and other IMG's that can have access to visas easily. But at least with the U.S, you still have a chance for being a MD, Canada, very very unlikely, unless you're willing to go to maybe Yukon or N.W.T, take your pick, the U.S or YUkon.
Basicallly I think you should visit this site, although it really is only about the Caribbean med schools, it has various links to other sites which talks about Visa and residency problems of canadian students, and why you will not be able to get a residency back in Canada as a foreign grad. Good luck!
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Field/1347/guide.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Field/1347/guide.htm</a>
 
hey docmira,

i'm also Canadian and I'm going to Australia in two weeks to start med. school. I'm leaving with the knowledge that I will never live in Canada again. Are u as ready as I am? What the others have said is true. For the States, we'll have IMG and Visa issues. Don't think because we're Canadian, they're gonna welcome us with open arms. From what I've heard, it's gonna be a scramble. If the States doesn't pay off, I've got the UK as a back-up as I'm also British- but in all honesty, if you take this route, put all thoughts of returning to Canada out of your mind, eh?
 
Opps, I think we might have misread Docmira's questions. I think she means getting internship in Australia instead of Canada.

I know that internships depend on the states in which you graduate. They might say on the letter that internship is no guaranttee. But you know what, that could be a BUNCH OF RUBBISH. They always say that!!! However, I know the state of Victoria is the strictest. Sometimes victorians graduated from NSW or any other states medical schools have difficult time getting internships in Victoria, even if they are Australians!!! In the state of NSW, almost every international graduates of NSW get an internship wherever they want. Although the POLICY of internship in NSW explicitly states that international students get 2nd round of placement. That's actually rubbish because they actually have quotas on international students. And almost all of time they couldn't even have enough international students to fill that quota for that particular hospital. And so your chance of getting internships in that particular hospital(e.g. RPA, Prince of Wales) is like 100%. This is strange but it's a fact. It is strange because they don't follow the rules of game in placement. Why do they do that in NSW? I don't know. I don't know about Tasmania. Maybe they work the same way. But I know it is extremely difficult for international students of gradutaes of other states to get internships placement in NSW.
 
I was wondering where the other Canadians are from, what university did you guys attend?
I'm currently doing my 4th year at U.T (big mistake). Oh yeah, well I don't mean to get all pessimistic, but you know as long as you get excellent USMLE and board scores, you will be able to good residency positions in the U.S. But the visa problem is definitely something to worry about, it could really screw you over and waste a lot of your time, if you don't plan things out carefully. On the site that I listed, it had this link to this other page which is also for Canadians, and basically it talks about the visas and stuff. In order to avoid the visa problem, you need to basically become a U.S citizen. Well there's several ways of doing it, apply for U.S citizenship, marry a U.S citizen, apply for permanent resident status, get a green card, get someone to adopt you, or invest in some business, these are just some suggestions. Don't u think that it sucks how being a Canadian brings along so many visa problems. I don't see other countries having visa problems with the states....sigh...good luck guys..
 
Not to go around the issue, but chances are that after living in Australia for four years you're not going to want to leave! I lived there for 6 months and absolutely loved it!
 
This is a bit off topic, but while talking about internships and residencies...the recent Caribbean threads have me a bit worried. Is the hardship for Australian graduates (US Citizens) to place into US residency / FMGs in general really that hard and up in the air? I'm not sure I understand how if there are 150% or even 110% number of openings for residency, how it still is so competitive except in certain fields. And it was my impression from info. that I received from my premed advisor...that going abroad to say Australia/UK/former Commonwealth countries was more preferential than going to the Caribbean. Is that the case? Thanks ;) .
 
Leorl,

I don't think Aussie graduates(U.S. citizen) would have an easier time. I don't know. I don't think there are enough graduates to come up with a conclusion. And 110% cap doesn't exactly mean that IMGs will be placed in second round for the leftover 10%. Although 110% cap implies it is and I think it's the intention of AMA to scare of IMGs from applying and USIMG from attending foreign meds. Well it seems to have worked pretty well. Many friends of my undergraduate years have gone into other fields because they heard about this 4 or 5 years ago. Now this worry seems to apply more to U.S. citizens.

However, for real Aussies, they seem to have the BEST time in getting residency even if they have never done any electives in the U.S. and have scored only reasonably well on usmle. Strange? BUT TRUE. One guy did his urology at Hopkins, my tutor did her pediatric at Harvard, a girl is doing cat.general surgery at cleveland clinic, a girl from west aussie just finished her neurosurgery residency at Yale. And another guy is currently doing his pediatric at Harvard. And I don't mean they are doing it at an affiliates. Perhaps because the programs want them for cultural exchange. And these are only the few that I have heard of. But then I don't think this can apply to U.S. citizens.
 
hi xrayray

I was as unfortunate enough as you to spend 5(!) years at U of T. (pharmacist - so i've got a head start in pharmacology/therapeutics!)
About visas, as Canadians, we are ineligible for the Green Card Lottery, and I doubt many of us have several hundred thousand USD's burning a hole in our pocket to enter in investor class. The only route --- H1B visa (3 yrs- hospital sponsored) then Green Card (couple of years) then Citizenship

Leorl: I'm a citizen of two Commonwealth countries so I have no hang-ups about getting my medical qualification in another Commonwealth country. I was deep in application process to SGU and ROSS when I accepted UQ. Another aspect that was important to me was to be part of a university and not just a stand alone med school. (Clinicals in the States are great, but what does that say about university life or sense of belonging at a particular institution?)
As a bonus - think of the great stories 10 years from now, "Ya, I spent a number of years down-under....."
 
Thanks for the info, I shall look into it further. The thing is, I could most probably get into a US school, but I WANT to go to Australia. It's a little bit hard for me to decide whether I should put what I know is a path that's right for me aside because I might jeopardize my career in the process. On the otherhand, I could opt to try to place into a commonwealth internship/residency because I do want to live in the UK in the future. But that's a big step forward and I'm not sure I should take a chance in not being able to get back into the US for employment. Decisions decisions. Maybe it's one of those things I just have to try, whatever the consequences.
 
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Yes leorl,

Yeah there's a risk of not coming back. But it's not really like gambling red or black as so many pessimists have claimed. So far every u.s. citizens I know have come back for residency. Although I can understand your hypothetical, reason-based concerns. I was like you. Well, I am still like you, but not as dramatic. The truth is that you MUCH MORE LIKELY to practice in the U.S. graduating from an Australian medical school than practicing in Australia. Strange again? But it's true. You can do your internships here with no problem, but after that, they will try their best to get rid of you.
 
'Try their best to get rid of you?' .. Surely thats wrong, I thought we loved eveyone down here :)

Seriously though, unless it is difficult to keep a work permit after internship, I don't understand why it would be any harder for an Australian qualified American vs an Australian. Please enlighten me :)
 
In the US, all foreign medical graduates, whether US citizen or not are called FMGs. Supposedly, it is harder for FMGs to match into residency which is required for liscensure and employment in the US. If we do our internship in a foreign country, usually it is not accepted if we want to come back to the US and we'd have to do our internship again. Same with residency. In otherwords, it ends up being a pain in the arse to try to get back into the US, which is something i can deal with but I just want to be more at ease before I make a committment. It also requires that we do very well on boards and CSE exam.
 
Originally posted by xrayray17:
•But the visa problem is definitely something to worry about, it could really screw you over and waste a lot of your time, if you don't plan things out carefully. On the site that I listed, it had this link to this other page which is also for Canadians, and basically it talks about the visas and stuff. In order to avoid the visa problem, you need to basically become a U.S citizen. Well there's several ways of doing it, apply for U.S citizenship, marry a U.S citizen, apply for permanent resident status, get a green card, get someone to adopt you, or invest in some business, these are just some suggestions. Don't u think that it sucks how being a Canadian brings along so many visa problems. I don't see other countries having visa problems with the states....sigh...good luck guys..•••

The visa problem is a pain for me but it is not as big of a deal as some people make it out to be. A summary is, if you are a Canadian med school grad and wants to do residency in the US, you will need to go back to Canada for two years after you finish your residendy program in the US (this might apply to Australians as well and maybe that's why there are so many of them in certain top-notch residency programs in the US); this is called the J-1 exchange Visitor Visa class. However, if you are an American med school grad (regardless of country of origin) you can jump straight to apply the H1B visa and on the green card route without that stupid 2-year home residency requirement (alternatively, you can use your practical training portion of your student visa for the first year of residency and then apply to H1B; practical training comes with your F1 student visa for studying medicine in the US). Below is some info I wrote already in another thread on this board.

However, I did look into the option of going back to Canada for med school but I turned it down because if you want to be a fresh Canadian med school grad coming to the US for residency, you need an J-class working visa. That means at the end of your residency, you will be forced to go back to Canada for two years before being allowed to come back to the US to work (this is called the home-residence requirement). It is meant to protect Canada for obvious reason. There are three ways to by-pass that. One is to hold an American green card then you don't need a working visa in the states at all! Two is to graduate from an American med school and by that, you can opt to go after H1B class working visa after you graduate and work in the states as a resident without worrying about the home-residency requirement. Three, Canadian med school grad can bypass J-class and go straight to H1B IF they pass USMLE step III. The key here is that you are not eligible to write step III until you finish first year of residency. So that does not help much, does it?

Please see the following link:
<a href="http://www.international.duke.edu/int_visa_class.html#clstaff" target="_blank">http://www.international.duke.edu/int_visa_class.html#clstaff</a>
 
Hello Purifier,

Oh perhaps I was a bit strong. After internship, if you are not an Aussie or Kiwi, you are not allow to extent your visa to stay in Australia for more advance training. Yes it can be done, but somehow it's very difficult. Of course professionally you would have absolutely no problem because you are a graduate of their country, but the problem lies between you and the immigration office. But then again, people have other ways of getting extended visa. It is just very difficult to stay if your ONLY reason is WANTING TO STAY.
 
I have also heard that it's really really difficult to stay in Australia for firther training after internship if you are an international student. Any success stories? Anyone with similar experiences?

liz.. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
 
Hello lizzy,

I have no ideas who others had done to stay in Australia. But I know there are some. But as a universal rule, MARRY A NATIVE!!! :)
 
Originally posted by KungFuMaster:
•Hello lizzy,

I have no ideas who others had done to stay in Australia. But I know there are some. But as a universal rule, MARRY A NATIVE!!! :) •••

hey kfm, thanks for ur advice..but i rather not marry someone for the sake of staying there...nor i want someone to marry me for tht reason only...if u know what i mean.. :)

liz.. :)
 
BTW, even marrying an Aussie citizen doesn't guarantee you a residency spot/visa. A classmate of mine married an Australian woman and was told that he would not be eligible for a permanent visa (and be able to apply for residency training there) for at least 3 years. Seems they want to make sure it isn't a sham marriage - no matter for them as she wanted to come to the US.

So if a sham marriage is your thing, make sure you can stand to be married to that person for a certain lengthy period of time! :D
 
3 years!!! But at least he gets to stay at the end, right?

Yeah there are too many sham marriage here(U.S). And nowaday it's pretty dangerous to do so. A friend of my father had a sham marriage and was deported when immigration found out. This is an irrelevant topic but interesting. The way they investigate is to visit your home in the middle of the night without warning and interview each person separately in different rooms. They ask questions like favor position(you know what I mean), type of birth control, and the most intimate details during sex. And if it is a sham, most of them will get them wrong or their stories are inconsistent. Stupid facts to share but I think it's interesting.
 
Kugfumaster...

I think its interesting too...sort of how they represented it in the film "Green Card" - ie, what's your wife's favorite toothpaste, etc. (don't recall any questions about sexual positions, but it was PG rated as I recall). I assumed my classmate would have been able to stay in Oz after 3 years but since they came back to the US, am not sure of the details.
 
wouldn't we be highly qualified people who could get immigration through the points system? i know that perm. residency early on could jeapordise our place in med school, but timing it so you get it towards the end of your fourth year?
 
I think the point system of immigration depends heavily on the uniqueness of your skill. One thing I know for sure is that being a doctor actually deducts your point. In the united states, there are roughly three ways you can get a greencard easily. 1) Just dry money can get you in. You have to invest at least 3 millions dollars in American business. In other words, you have to be RICH. 2)People or institution willing to sponsor you for your job skill "which cannot be easily obtained in the united states". However, this depends on your sponsor. And sometimes these sponsors need to bend the rule a little. Or if you have a very unique, LEGITIMATE skill(regardless whether it is practical or not)that you can hardly find in the U.S.(and so therefore this does not apply to doctors), then you also will have a very easy time getting greencard. I know a person who got a greencard in no time because he has the skill of making the best indian desert. Though he has established himself as an authority in India for doing it. For post-residency doctors, you need a practice that is willing to sponsor you for your presence. And such institution needs proofs that your employment is absolutely vital. That's why you hear that many IMGs without greencard work at rural places because their employment are necessary to supply doctors to these underserved places so that immigration would approve their sponsorship. But it's not necessarily true. Some big urban centers do sponsor IMGs for greencard given that the institutions like them very much and willing to bend the rule a little to "exaggerate" you treasure-like skills. That your skill is so amazing that they could hardly find another doctor like you. That means either you do have such a skill or you will have to win their affection enough for them to do this for you. 3)Marry a citizen!!!

As for the rest, you can wait forever!!!
 
Originally posted by rsk77:
•wouldn't we be highly qualified people who could get immigration through the points system? i know that perm. residency early on could jeapordise our place in med school, but timing it so you get it towards the end of your fourth year?•••

Kung Fu master is right - in Australia you actually accumulate 100 points if you are a physician (the more points you have the less likely you are to be allowed to emigrate). While there are certain areas of the country in dire need of medical practitioners, the urban areas are overloaded - much like NYC. They do NOT need more doctors in Australia. They need manual and casual laborers, especially in the rural areas.
 
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