I have only gotten 2 invites and 1 wait list so far out of 39 programs, including 3 rejections. Is it still early or have most programs sent out all there invites by now? Really beginning to get worried especially since there are no red flags my apps (as far as I know) and I have decent board scores. Any input would be appreciated.
Interview invites for 2013
- Thread starter NeuroAP86
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2009
- Messages
- 798
- Reaction score
- 780
Check the invite thread- still plenty of programs sending invites and more that don't seem to have sent any yet. Plus overbooked people will cancel invites over the next month or so and spots will therefore open up. If you have more specific info on your app maybe someone else here has a similar app and might give you more insight as far as who has offered invites.
Are you a DO or IMG? If so, did you check if the programs you applied to have taken DOs/IMGs in the past? Some programs have a disproportionately large number of DOs and IMGs while others do not have many at all (or the IMGs are MD/PhD and probably have lots of experience).
I have been checking that and that's the reason its starting to worry me a bit lol.
I am a DO applicant, applied to many programs that either have DOs or previously had DOs in the program. Interview invites right now are USF and SIU. Got rejected from UTSW, Case Western, and UW-madison. Most my programs are in the midwest and southeast states, with some scattered here and there
My stats:
USMLE step 1 - 225/step 2 - 230
Passed comlex level 1/2/PE
I have multiple letters but only attached these: 1 IM, 1 surgery, 2 neuro [1 from UChicago faculty]
Passed all rotations with honors except peds
Mix of volunteering and healthcare work experience [roughly 4+ years]
No research
USMLE step 1 - 225/step 2 - 230
Passed comlex level 1/2/PE
I have multiple letters but only attached these: 1 IM, 1 surgery, 2 neuro [1 from UChicago faculty]
Passed all rotations with honors except peds
Mix of volunteering and healthcare work experience [roughly 4+ years]
No research
Thats really strange...no red flags?? No professionalism issues in med school? How was your PS? Did you have multiple people read it? Did your MSPE get turned in? My stats are really similar (slightly lower step1, significantly higher on step 2), but ive gotten quite a bit of interviews. Only real difference is Im MD program and have quite a bit of research, but dont think that should make a big enough difference...
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2009
- Messages
- 798
- Reaction score
- 780
I would think that MD vs DO has to be a lot of the problem- maybe the schools you applied to are ones that aren't as favorable for DO candidates.
If I were in your shoes the first thing I'd do would be to meet with a faculty adviser who is a neurologist. If you don't have that, then a neurologist you rotated with and got an LOR from or something.
If I were in your shoes the first thing I'd do would be to meet with a faculty adviser who is a neurologist. If you don't have that, then a neurologist you rotated with and got an LOR from or something.
Have you checked whether your LORs satisfy requirements? Because you didn't satisfy LOR reqs for Case Western, and I suspect several other programs. CW requires a LOR from the chair or clerkship director of your school's own neurology department. I know this is not uncommon. Additionally some prelim programs require a medicine chair letter. If you don't meet prelim requirements at some of the schools with guaranteed pgy1, their IM department will preclude further consideration by the neuro residency. I've come to feel like the greatest disadvantage of osteopathic education is the lack of proper advising--my friend last year had 11 classmates who didn't know they had to apply to prelim programs & were left to SOAP (some unsuccessfully) after matching to advanced positions. As I've asked around, this seems to sadly not be that uncommon. It's tragic.
Also, have you checked in ERAS what items have been downloaded by which programs?
I don't know how many of the few applicants using the II thread are DOs. I would ask DO residents if their invitations came later in the season. Is it possible that a lot of programs exhaust their pool of qualified US MD applicants before considering qualified DO applicants?
And when were you submitted and when complete with LORs?
If none of that seems to explain it, ask your ask your school to review your mspe & LORs (if they retain access) for errors--was the content referring to a different student?
Also, have you checked in ERAS what items have been downloaded by which programs?
I don't know how many of the few applicants using the II thread are DOs. I would ask DO residents if their invitations came later in the season. Is it possible that a lot of programs exhaust their pool of qualified US MD applicants before considering qualified DO applicants?
And when were you submitted and when complete with LORs?
If none of that seems to explain it, ask your ask your school to review your mspe & LORs (if they retain access) for errors--was the content referring to a different student?
Last edited:
Did your school explain it all to you? Mine sent some PDF document that I'm sure included all that, but unless you read it, you wouldn't have known.
Many DO schools also don't have a chair of neurology or any specialty really, it seems.
Yeah, my school did a better than average job. I think anybody attending a pricey private school deserves that much (obviously many of the osteopathic schools fall in that category). students' success is their success as far as it improves reputation & attracts better applicants etc. I don't understand throwing your grads to the wolves like this. Honestly it's even in their best interest to help ensure you get LORs and get them on time.
. . . and if you got instructions but chose not to read them, that's a hugely different situation than not being given any instructions.
I believe the absence of a chair is the reason it also says neurology clerkship director is acceptable. Beyond that you can also have a chair or clerkship director "designee"...who could be someone in a different department. I'll add my $.02, however, and say these letters are ridiculous, because the author often has not worked with the student. If I were the OP I would call his advising office to clarify whether there is a chair, clerkship director, or designee. If not, maybe they have a letter saying as much that goes with the MSPE. If not, I'd ask them to write one & I'd contact all the relevant programs, provide them with that documentation, and ask them what, if anything else, they want to further consider the application.
In the end, however, who here knows if this is even why the OP hasn't gotten interview invites -- it might just be typical for this process from the DO side.
Last edited:
Can you explain what you mean by this. When I applied to neuro programs I attached LOR from the Neuro chair. I attached the LOR from my medicine chair for preliminary programs. I attached 2 neuro attending and a medicine clerkship director letter for all programs. For the neuro categorical or guaranteed prelim programs I assumed that they didn't need a medicine chair letter. I assumed that advanced neuro and preliminary programs will consider your apps separately, but this doesn't seem to be the case.
For the 2 programs that explained use of this type of process in determining interview invites:
IM prelim reviews whatever you submitted to them (prelim LORs and prelim PS).
Neuro advanced reviews whatever you submitted to them (Neuro LORs and Neuro PS).
Then Neuro and IM meet and compare their feelings about the applicants from whatever materials were submitted to their own part of the program.
Then IM's opinion gets factored into whether or not Neuro will grant you an interview, b/c essentially the terms of their relationship with IM do not allow them to foist just any successful neuro candidate upon them.
Per your description, you would have submitted all your LORs correctly -- IM chair letter to prelim and Neuro chair letter to Neuro.
I don't feel like this has been transparent, and I feel like it screws people who applied to the joined programs but were interested in the advanced spot even if they didn't match to the prelim.
Also, by no means am I saying that this is how all or even a majority of these joined/guaranteed programs handle things . . . it's just what 2 of the programs I applied to have acknowledged as their procedure.
Last edited:
I didn't fail anything, middle of my class and never had an issue with professionalism. My MSPE didn't get uploaded till 10/7 and after that the 2 invites started coming in so maybe that was the determining factor? I did not turn in my application until 9/21 due to working on my PS which was edited by multiple people over a 3 week period so I think it was pretty good. I was also waiting on the LOR from UChicago faculty to be uploaded and that didn't happen till 10/2.
My school doesn't have a neurology department and it doesn't require a neurology clerkship so I ended up doing at as part of my 3rd month of IM instead of a sub specialty. The majority of the programs I have applied to are favorable for DO candidates.
All of the programs have downloaded all parts of my application and it is an IM letter from attending that part of a DO residency at the hospital where I did my rotations. I did not seek out the chair or get a letter from him, seems weird to me that this would be the reason I get rejected from some of these places
Having talked to multiple people, they said there interview invites came in mid or late October in previous years and I got two invites earlier this week after all parts of my application were available to the programs. I have also applied to PMR as a backup and received 3 invites out of 16 programs I applied to and I don't even have a PMR letter in yet. I really can't explain why the invites are not coming in and I might have to just wait it out until the end of October to see if more invites come in and if they don't then I have to reconsider my approach.
I know that you don't see why it should matter whether you have a chair letter, but if it's required (& for instance it clearly states it's required on CW's website), I would not assume it doesn't matter. Not following instructions is an easy way to screen applicants.
It is totally possible that part of the info that the school sends out with your MSPE tells schools you don't have access to a chair letter or clerkship director letter and that this is a moot point. But why after all of the money and effort invested would you just decide on your own that it's no big deal? You have time to do something to try to clarify or remedy the situation (if it's even an issue where you applied). I know you won't have missed the req's for plenty of programs with the above LORs, but what if it matters at the places you most want to go? And in particular, depending on how many prelims you applied to & where, you should see how many want the chair letter. Prelim spots can be so hard to get.
Maybe getting a chair letter asap or a letter from your school saying you don't get those could make a difference. I can tell you that my school made a big deal about filling LOR reqs, so I don't think it is prudent to just decide for yourself this is a not the issue--why would they have reqs if they didn't care? Favorable for DO candidates doesn't mean those DOs interviewed weren't held to the admissions requirements.
Last edited:
These are very valid points and I'll try my best to get a resolution to this issue. Thank for all the advice!
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2012
- Messages
- 468
- Reaction score
- 357
Good luck! Let us know if you figure out whether it was your LORs or just the DO thing. There aren't a lot of resources for Neuro applicants, so I think it could be very useful info for others.
Last edited:
At my home institution, the chairs of the more competitive specialties (ortho, derm, etc) often steer students they think are not so competitive away from that specialty, so having the chair letter acts as a "stamp of approval". Hence if you COULD get one but didn't have one on your application, it may be interpreted as your home neuro dept did not feel comfortable with you going into the field for some reason or other. But since your home institution does not have a neuro dept, I doubt this is an issue. For what it's worth, I was explicitly advised NOT to attach my medicine chair letter to my neurology applications.
Is there any reason people might read your application and think you're not committed to neuro? Any chance you assigned the wrong personal statement between the PM&R and Neuro programs?
Good luck!
Is there any reason people might read your application and think you're not committed to neuro? Any chance you assigned the wrong personal statement between the PM&R and Neuro programs?
Good luck!
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2009
- Messages
- 28
- Reaction score
- 0
Just an observation from someone who is peripherally involved with the recruitment process at our program.....
Our program interviews DO candidates and has DO residents every few years (even have some DO neuro faculty). But, it seems like there are some DO schools that the program director knows (or prefers) and other schools that are unknown. I noticed this year that there seem to be applicants from MD medical schools that I have never heard of before (apologizes to anyone from Cooper Medical School in Camden). A lot of the osteopathic schools are pretty new too and hence may not have established a reputation. So, the criteria for board scores etc. may be higher for those.
Also, if you took the COMLEX, they probably looked at those scores too.
Our program interviews DO candidates and has DO residents every few years (even have some DO neuro faculty). But, it seems like there are some DO schools that the program director knows (or prefers) and other schools that are unknown. I noticed this year that there seem to be applicants from MD medical schools that I have never heard of before (apologizes to anyone from Cooper Medical School in Camden). A lot of the osteopathic schools are pretty new too and hence may not have established a reputation. So, the criteria for board scores etc. may be higher for those.
Also, if you took the COMLEX, they probably looked at those scores too.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2012
- Messages
- 468
- Reaction score
- 357
Also, did your LOR writers know you were double applying? You don't want letters recommending you for Neuro going to PM&R or vice versa.
Some schools have permission to review your LORs between their submission and arrival in the ERAS post office. If your school did that, you can ask them to check whether the LORs were for the right field or appropriately generic. I don't know if they can still look at them after they were put into the post office. (if they can, as Pietachok mentioned, maybe they can also double check that these were LORs for *you* as opposed to your name but content referring to a classmate).
This.
Also, don't know if this makes you feel better, but the chair at my home program thinks chair letters are stupid and refused to write me (or anyone else) one. This was not mentioned on my MSPE or anywhere else in my application and I've had no trouble from any program I applied to. I do have four neurology faculty letters though...
If I were you I'd definitely make sure all the LORs and personal statements are assigned properly. And if that was an issue, it might be worth adding a few more places targeting those that have no sent out invites yet. You can do this in addition to trying to obtain a chair letter since we're all just speculating thus far. Best of luck!
My school has been around roughly 50 years so it is well established so this might not be an issue but geographical different from the places I am applying to may be the issue as well?
I definitely made sure that my letters were always written generically except the neurology letters. The only letter I am unsure is the IM one which could be the issue and I will try talking to my school to see if they have any insight into this matter. I have made sure that the right PS and letters were assigned to each program appropriately. I will report back once I hear some definitive things or I get more invites.
I don't think it's necessary. I was advised to just change the last paragraph a bit to say how prelim fits into my plans. They know you're not going into IM
I also don't think it is a huge problem. Is that 7/14 prelim programs? If so, clearly you're fine.
I applied to 16 prelims. As of today I have only been invited to 4 and one of the 4 said all their dates are full. I'm really starting to worry.
Does anyone have any advice on this? I'm wondering if its appropriate to start emailing programs asking when they will send invites? Is it too late to add more programs, since I'm sure most have already reviewed apps and sent out the majority of invites.
Does anyone have any advice on this? I'm wondering if its appropriate to start emailing programs asking when they will send invites? Is it too late to add more programs, since I'm sure most have already reviewed apps and sent out the majority of invites.
So I am also applying, I applied to 14 prelims, I have only heard and scheduled 5 so far. But my PD and Dean informed me of was a "3:1 or 4:1" rule. For every 3 to 4 Neuro interviews, you should have 1 prelim interview.
So Smmypnts if you have 9-12 neuro invites, 3 prelims should be good...
Although i have no idea if this is at all for real... but is probably a rough gauge.... Not to mention... we are applying to Neuro not Medicine and honestly I would MUCH rather focus my time and money on my top choice neuro spots late in the year over the prelims im trying to fill up.
So Smmypnts if you have 9-12 neuro invites, 3 prelims should be good...
Although i have no idea if this is at all for real... but is probably a rough gauge.... Not to mention... we are applying to Neuro not Medicine and honestly I would MUCH rather focus my time and money on my top choice neuro spots late in the year over the prelims im trying to fill up.
I have different experience with this. I have been told to treat prelim seriously, as there are instances of people matching an advanced neuro program without a prelim and having to scramble for a prelim. Ive known applicants with 15-20 neuro interviews with 3-5 prelims who had to scramble for a prelim. I guess you are safe if you rank your advanced programs lower than all the categoricals/guaranteed prelims, but if you are ranking an advanced program higher I would go to more than 3 prelim interviews.
Good point, I'm sure none of us wanna scramble, BUT realistically is it possible to interview for 1:1 prelim spots with the advanced Neuro spots that you interview with?
I'm not sure my schedule or budget can handle that... BUT good point... I agree... categorical programs are the way to go... WAY less stress...
I'm not sure my schedule or budget can handle that... BUT good point... I agree... categorical programs are the way to go... WAY less stress...
I was told to apply to 20+ prelims and go to 10+ prelim interviews. (So the same # of interviews as advised for neuro in my case). I have good board scores and evals, so I don't think it was a CYA suggestion.
As I have been invited/gone to Neuro interviews, I've found some programs will arrange a same-day interview for their affiliated prelim program even though they didn't advertise this and don't have a guaranteed spot. I would take any/all of them up on this offer in order to maximize your # of prelim interviews without increasing your travel costs (it has just meant doing a short, extra interview that day).
What I don't know is whether or not this is actually that helpful if you don't match to their neuro program. If a program wouldn't have interviewed you if it weren't for Neuro asking them to, are they able to make your rank on their list contingent upon matching to their affiliated Neuro program? I have no clue. I know that at least isn't always the case, b/c one prelim I know of ends up with a disproportionate # of Neuro PGY-1s who aren't going to their associated Neuro program for PGY2-4.
As I have been invited/gone to Neuro interviews, I've found some programs will arrange a same-day interview for their affiliated prelim program even though they didn't advertise this and don't have a guaranteed spot. I would take any/all of them up on this offer in order to maximize your # of prelim interviews without increasing your travel costs (it has just meant doing a short, extra interview that day).
What I don't know is whether or not this is actually that helpful if you don't match to their neuro program. If a program wouldn't have interviewed you if it weren't for Neuro asking them to, are they able to make your rank on their list contingent upon matching to their affiliated Neuro program? I have no clue. I know that at least isn't always the case, b/c one prelim I know of ends up with a disproportionate # of Neuro PGY-1s who aren't going to their associated Neuro program for PGY2-4.
