Interview/ROL Ratio

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bartholomew

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This would seem to be a reasonable point in time to assess how many interviews we will actually be going to and how many programs will end up on our ROL's.

These numbers will obviously be contingent upon the competitiveness of the programs in consideration.

From NRMP data, it seems that applicants that successfully matched had an average of 7 programs on their ROL, while those that didn't had about 5. I believe these numbers accounted for all applicants in all fields.

As an average internal medicine residency candidate with interviews at average programs and a strong bias towards location, I'm inclined to keep my interviews to a bare minimum.

Tentatively, I plan to interview at 7-8 programs and rank 6.

I'm curious to hear what others plan to do...

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I will rank all the programs I interview at (I applied only in NYC). As our Dean always says:" Think about being unemployed for a year". Many students from Einstein thought they were God's gifts only to find out they did not match because they ranked only 3 or 4. So rank everything and hope for the best.
 
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I applied to 12...so far I have 8 interviews. We will see...Probably I won't be going to Stony Brook and North Shore. That leaves 6 plus any additional of the 4 I did not hear from. So anywhere from 6 to 10 (although I think that every Einstein student has a spot at Monte anyway).
 
I am planning on going to all but one of my interviews so far, and I am planning on ranking just about everywhere that I interview at (as long as I could stand spending 3 years there of course). You should probably ask how many people your program interviews, because I've noticed that some programs are not very selective when inviting applicants for interviews. I think that I will end up interviewing and ranking close to 10. The good thing about medicine is that even if you don't match, I think that you can always scramble into a mediocre program. It have to be some university affiliated community program in primary care, but at least you have a very low risk of being unemployed for one year even if you aren't smart about your ranking. The advise given to us at our school is to interview at anywhere where you think that you'd be interested in going to, and rank everywhere where you wouldn't mind being. I know people at my school who only ranked 2-5 programs and ended up matching fine though. I think that the stronger the candidate you are, the less programs you should feel like you have to rank and interview at as long as 2-3 of them are "sure" shots.
 
Originally posted by ckent
I am planning on going to all but one of my interviews so far, and I am planning on ranking just about everywhere that I interview at (as long as I could stand spending 3 years there of course). You should probably ask how many people your program interviews, because I've noticed that some programs are not very selective when inviting applicants for interviews. I think that I will end up interviewing and ranking close to 10. The good thing about medicine is that even if you don't match, I think that you can always scramble into a mediocre program. It have to be some university affiliated community program in primary care, but at least you have a very low risk of being unemployed for one year even if you aren't smart about your ranking. The advise given to us at our school is to interview at anywhere where you think that you'd be interested in going to, and rank everywhere where you wouldn't mind being. I know people at my school who only ranked 2-5 programs and ended up matching fine though. I think that the stronger the candidate you are, the less programs you should feel like you have to rank and interview at as long as 2-3 of them are "sure" shots.

Just another thought on this matter: before the whole application process, I always thought that going into a residency in medicine should be something more of a buyer's market - as opposed to smaller, highly-sought-after fields like ENT or dermatology. ie. a solid applicant should be able to pretty much go anywhere he/she wants (maybe save for the ultra-elites like MGH, etc) and programs are going to compete to hire you to their program. Looking at the un-filled program statistics on scutwork.com also support this: there are a lot of solid programs in this country that goes unfilled.

However, experiencing the application process first-hand involving some of the better programs in the country, I must say that this is not unlike the application for medical school - programs are still highly selective in interview invitations, some programs receive anywhere from 1000-2000 applications and interview only a small fraction of that number. And after that they only rank a fraction of those whom they interview. At my home institution (a pretty solid program), the PD told us they would get 1200-1500 apps/yr, interview 350-400 and rank maybe 100-150 to get the entering class of 30 or so, and they say they rarely have to dip below 100 on their ROL. I would imagine other good programs will have similar statistics.

So, with that said, I think the "safe number" of programs to rank has a lot to do with what caliber of programs you are applying to/interviewing at. If you are interviewing predominately at the MGH/BW/Hopkins type of programs, I would imagine you will need to rank a lot more than, say if you are considering the local programs. If geographically restricted, then probably ranking some lesser programs within a location is not a bad idea. ie. if especially interested in SF, would be stupid just to rank UCSF and Stanford no matter how good you think you are.

For IM, my dean of student always advise us to interview at 8-10 places that we think we really want to be at, and from that list, rank ALL places first, then purge from the list any that we absolutely DONT want to be at. This way, most people will rank 7-8 acceptable programs. She boasts that nobody from my school has ever go unmatched in IM.
 
Renovar, my guess is that you attend a quite reputable institution.

These are the statistics on length of ROLs:
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/about_res/impact.html

An institutional ROL of 5 per position would seem to suggest either an highly selective or poorly managed program.

Freida offers information regarding the ratio of interviews to positions for specific programs that release such information.

From these two set of data, rough inferences can be made about interview habits and institutional ROLs.

In any case, what do you guys think about your schools match history. I go to a large midwestern state school, and we generally match over 90% of our graduates into one of their top three choices...Wouldn't that suggest that in most cases you needn't rank all 10 of the interviews you attend?

ckent, with nearly knowing nothing about you, I would be willing to put money down on you getting one of your top 3 choices...
 
Originally posted by bartholomew
Renovar, my guess is that you attend a quite reputable institution.

These are the statistics on length of ROLs:
http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/about_res/impact.html

An institutional ROL of 5 per position would seem to suggest either an highly selective or poorly managed program.

Freida offers information regarding the ratio of interviews to positions for specific programs that release such information.

At the high end, some really good programs tend to rank 3-4 if not 5 times the number of their position openings because it is the same pool of highly qualified candidates that those top programs are competing for because of overlap of applications. You can be sure that people interviewing at BW are the same people that are interviewing at MGH are the same people at Hopkins, etc. Programs want a ROL to ENSURE that they will not go unfilled, especially at these esteemed institutions where going unfilled declares them to the world that they dont belong at where everyone think they are.

I'd say my institution's IM program is pretty good, some (especially the locals and the administration) claims it's one of the best in the country, but I'd say it's easily a step or two below the MGH/BW, both in terms of competitiveness and the quality of residents, but it's solidly among the 15 or 20 best programs in the country. Same with the med school I am at.

As far as the "top 3" thing goes, yea, you can play the odds and rank only your top 3. Nationally, 80+% gets their top 3. I guess if you are an average American grad and are applying to average residency programs, yea, I would guess you get top 3, but if you are applying only to the higher-end, more reputable programs (like myself), you'd be stupid to only rank 3. Even if you are AOA, ranking only MGH, BW and UCSF on your ROL is asking for a visit to the dean's office on Unmatch day.
 
I hope to go on 10 interviews and rank all programs that I feel neutral to positive about. 1st interview was a neutral. If I am negative, I will not rank them and take my chances with a shorter list. It would be nice to rank 10. I still have not heard from 3 of my 15 applied to.

This is exactly what my dean recommended. All my programs are considered "top". I have no feelings of security about getting one of my top three choices at all.

My first interview was just a "chat" about the hobbies listed on my application. No hint that I knew a thing about medicine or that they cared if I did. No mention of any other part of my application. I could have been applying to be a shoe salesmen.

Heard MGH had a panel that "grilled" the applicant. Anyone know anything about this?
 
unfortunately i don't know about the im program, but my ex-boyfriend matched there for surgery -- and he got GRILLED. Interestingly, he got most of the answers wrong (or so he thought), and still matched...
 
Yep, you'll be in a pretty nice dilemma Renovar...
 
At the NRMP site, the average ROL from the PD's standpoint is 9X the number of positions. This mean number applies to all programs, univ-based, comm-based, ent, fam, im, etc.

I could believe that the very top programs devise a ROL of 4-5X their needed positions. For example, I've heard that the Brigham has the best track record of filling positions without going far down on their ROL. This is of course hearsay.

But I find it hard to believe that most solid (top 20 or so) IM programs would feel comfortable with a ROL of less than 7-8X positions available, given that their interviewees will be deciding between several other solid IM programs.

I'll be interviewing at a mix of competitive, very competitive, and 2 non-competitive programs (total: 9-11), and plan to rank 8-9 in the end.
 
Hey Renovar,

I was wondering if you have any idea regarding the stats (board scores, AOA status, pubs) of current residents at your school. I am actually very interested in the IM program at your school. Thanks for any info you can give.
 
I think the programs have to rank at least 5-10 times for 1 spot too. My reasoning is that applicants are likely to rank at least 5, with most ranking more than that. Therefore, if we rank 5 places, than each place we interview at has to rank at least 5 others as well to ensure that statistically, they will fill that spot.

On that note, one PD said that their IM applicants typically apply to 16, interview at 9, and rank 5 - if the school publishes that they have 80-90% of applicants matching into their 3 top choices, overall in all specialties, than I think for IM, that should translate to at least >90% if you are applying to reasonable programs. I don't know about the confidence intervals but from this stand point, 5 seems reasonable if 3 is around 90%.
 
My PD told me that our school (U Maryland) ranks around 3-4 students for each spot (ie they rank around 120 students for a class of 30). Which students they ultimately end up with each year remains pretty variable in terms of how far down on their rank list they end up going down, my PD told me that it was largely guess work.
 
My guess is that some programs will only rank candidates they are confidant will actually come to their program (family ties, went to med school there, etc) and exclude candidates they suspect are over-qualified (and will choose more competitive programs) from their rank lists. This allows them to avoid going too far down on their ranks lists and makes them look better.

I know some other programs will rank all candidates they are interested in, even if they know it is unlikely that some candidates will rank them highly. Basically, any discussion about program rank order lists for candidates and "how far down they go down the list" has to be taken with a grain of salt. Any thoughts, or other info on how specific programs rank candidates?
 
Originally posted by exjersey
My guess is that some programs will only rank candidates they are confidant will actually come to their program (family ties, went to med school there, etc) and exclude candidates they suspect are over-qualified (and will choose more competitive programs) from their rank lists. This allows them to avoid going too far down on their ranks lists and makes them look better.

I know some other programs will rank all candidates they are interested in, even if they know it is unlikely that some candidates will rank them highly. Basically, any discussion about program rank order lists for candidates and "how far down they go down the list" has to be taken with a grain of salt. Any thoughts, or other info on how specific programs rank candidates?

What you are describing is probably more true of ortho or ENT-type matches, that the pool of available slots and pool of applicants are smaller and things get MUCH more personal. Because the programs are much smaller, the PD's want to have much tighter control over who comes in that institution, and not let ranking computer determine that. Therefore, they will violate match rule and call candidates to ask how they will rank their program, and they will "weed out" people who does not appear interested off their ROL.

FOr medicine, they will be pretty stupid to do that, because of the large permutations of programs and candidates, most program will just rank from top down. You never know, there are programs that sometimes end up with a great applicant they thought they would lose to another institution. Unless of course, someone shows interest/disinterest in attending that program, in which that will play a factor in where the candidate end up on the program's ROL.
 
one piece of advice - do NOT rank a place you are 90+% sure you don't want to go to. case in point, a girl from a local med school ranked her own med school last (for ortho) and ended up matching there, threw a big tantrum on match day, and dropped their program before she even started. i guess she's doing research at some place and applying again this year to "better" hospitals.

the point is - she took away a spot from a person who would have really wanted it! instead, she ranked a place she knew she didn't want to go to, screwing herself and another poor candidate in the end.
 
Originally posted by gwen
one piece of advice - do NOT rank a place you are 90+% sure you don't want to go to. case in point, a girl from a local med school ranked her own med school last (for ortho) and ended up matching there, threw a big tantrum on match day, and dropped their program before she even started. i guess she's doing research at some place and applying again this year to "better" hospitals.

the point is - she took away a spot from a person who would have really wanted it! instead, she ranked a place she knew she didn't want to go to, screwing herself and another poor candidate in the end.

That's pretty fuked up. Her own med school's ortho dept must love her for making them look bad and have to scramble for a resident for the spot she took. And she will eat it big time next time she applies for the "better hospital", cuz she sure ain't getting no department chair's recs or support this time around.
 
i know, isn't it messed up? the only reason i know this is b/c a person who went unmatched for ortho at my school ended up scrambling into ORTHO(!) there. scrambling into ortho...how funny...
 
My guess is that programs take notes on its applicants. After interviews, they have more data to work with such as appearance, ability to communicate, sense of direction, awareness of medical politics etc etc...In addition to evaluations from interviews, I imagine any personal communications that occur afterwards further helps them assess interest.

I'd be surprised to discover that an IM program simply ranks "top-down." Most programs clearly favor students from their own institution and this fact alone would seemingly preclude such an approach. Between two equally qualified and interested outside applicants, I bet admissions commitees review application materials again...and in many cases, this probably entails actually reading our personal statements.

Having said that, the cream of the crop, with the numbers and personal attributes that make them genuinely stellar, probably rank high at every program they interview at. I can't imagine any reason a program would "exclude" such an applicant. Unless the applicant was less than enthusiastic or plainly disinterested (i.e. had a poor interview), it's in their best interest to rank him/her high.

If you take the time to take a second look and tell the PD you will rank a program number one, unless you're talking about Harvard or similar programs, you're bound to get what you want. After all, IM is not like applying to ortho or ENT....
 
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