Interviewing without suit, or not at all?

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LizzyM said:
In my fantasy land, interviewees would be escorted to a locker room and be asked to change into school provided scrubs for the rest of the day... It would take "fashion sense" and the cash to dress well off the table in the admissions process.
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If you're talking equal opportunity, shouldn't you also require a divider and a voice masker for interviews? Divider eliminates the visual aspect (is an applicant fat? Ugly? Etc) and the voice masked eliminates sexual and vocal bias.

Money, just like looks and speech, are inherently unequal. There are ways to modify the penalty of not being born into this (FAP, makeup, speech practice), but mitigation is up to the applicant.

Eliminating all bias just puts us at square one of the application process where we just have them submit essays.
 
PreMedOrDead said:
If you're talking equal opportunity, shouldn't you also require a divider and a voice masker for interviews? Divider eliminates the visual aspect (is an applicant fat? Ugly? Etc) and the voice masked eliminates sexual and vocal bias.

Money, just like looks and speech, are inherently unequal. There are ways to modify the penalty of not being born into this (FAP, makeup, speech practice), but mitigation is up to the applicant.

Eliminating all bias just puts us at square one of the application process where we just have them submit essays.
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Just like the voice eh? But this is the on steroid version of the voice. 😉
 
PreMedOrDead said:
If you're talking equal opportunity, shouldn't you also require a divider and a voice masker for interviews? Divider eliminates the visual aspect (is an applicant fat? Ugly? Etc) and the voice masked eliminates sexual and vocal bias.

Money, just like looks and speech, are inherently unequal. There are ways to modify the penalty of not being born into this (FAP, makeup, speech practice), but mitigation is up to the applicant.

Eliminating all bias just puts us at square one of the application process where we just have them submit essays.
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So basically eliminating all bias turns the application process into MSUCOM's system?
 
LizzyM said:
In my fantasy land, interviewees would be escorted to a locker room and be asked to change into school provided scrubs for the rest of the day... It would take "fashion sense" and the cash to dress well off the table in the admissions process.
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I'd keep them up "on call" all night to see how the respond after sleep deprivation.
 
PreMedOrDead said:
If you're talking equal opportunity, shouldn't you also require a divider and a voice masker for interviews? Divider eliminates the visual aspect (is an applicant fat? Ugly? Etc) and the voice masked eliminates sexual and vocal bias.

Money, just like looks and speech, are inherently unequal. There are ways to modify the penalty of not being born into this (FAP, makeup, speech practice), but mitigation is up to the applicant.

Eliminating all bias just puts us at square one of the application process where we just have them submit essays.
Click to expand...

But with few exceptions, patients see and hear the physicians who treat them and it is valid to use body language and spoken communications to assess candidates.
 
PreMedOrDead said:
If you're talking equal opportunity, shouldn't you also require a divider and a voice masker for interviews? Divider eliminates the visual aspect (is an applicant fat? Ugly? Etc) and the voice masked eliminates sexual and vocal bias.

Money, just like looks and speech, are inherently unequal. There are ways to modify the penalty of not being born into this (FAP, makeup, speech practice), but mitigation is up to the applicant.

Eliminating all bias just puts us at square one of the application process where we just have them submit essays.
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I can't tell if this is sincerity or facetious...
 
baconshrimps said:
I can't tell if this is sincerity or facetious...
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tumblr_inline_mltpyzl3Br1qz4rgp.gif
 
LizzyM said:
But with few exceptions, patients see and hear the physicians who treat them and it is valid to use body language and spoken communications to assess candidates.
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I mean, they will also see socioeconomic status as well in dress and, to an extent, demeanor. Can you imagine a candidate that gets to medical school not knowing how to properly dress him or herself?
 
PreMedOrDead said:
I mean, they will also see socioeconomic status as well in dress and, to an extent, demeanor. Can you imagine a candidate that gets to medical school not knowing how to properly dress him or herself?
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What is proper? I would not be offended if my physician wore a polo shirt and khakis or a skirt and sweater. I don't know when being able to dress as an undertaker became a requirement for medical school admission.
 
baconshrimps said:
Not if you have Ambien and megadoses of melatonin. Wine works too.


That's like saying "I'd like it when it's a dry heat, but humid as well"
-_-
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I'd say, being a sincerely facetious individual makes most of my posts facetiously sincere. Metaphorically dipping your head in a bucket of dry water on a hot, dryly humid day.
 
LizzyM said:
What is proper? I would not be offended if my physician wore a polo shirt and khakis or a skirt and sweater. I don't know when being able to dress as an undertaker became a requirement for medical school admission.
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So you disagree with the dress code requirement of Mayo?

I don't actually have a clear opinion on this, just saying I'm okay with where it's at. Interviews are already mainly for their ability to select, subjectively, both appropriately and, truthfully, discriminatorily.
 
PreMedOrDead said:
So you disagree with the dress code requirement of Mayo?

I don't actually have a clear opinion on this, just saying I'm okay with where it's at. Interviews are already mainly for their ability to select, subjectively, both appropriately and, truthfully, discriminatorily.
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I don't think LizzyM is saying they disagree with the dress code of a particular school, but rather, on a more sentimental level, there is nothing 'unbecoming' of an aspiring physician to wear something other than a full on suit. Likewise, the onus is on the applicant (i.e., the person climbing the ladder) to 'dress to impress' but once they've reached a certain level in their training, the judgement is not on appearances so much as it is on ability. I can't tell you how many times (either as a patient, or volunteering, or shadowing) I have seen physicians wearing slacks or khakis, with a button down shirt, sometimes a tie, sometimes no tie.

I will always be a scrubs and sneakers kinda guy myself. Nothing better than a pair of comfortable pants when you are in the cath lab for hours on end. Then again, maybe I'l find myself most in my element in this attire:

il_570xN.445502447_s6kf.jpg
 
I would assume that business formal wear could also make it harder to connect with some patients as well?
 
kyamh said:
I would rather make the interview. Actually, I would rather buy a cheap new suit in town, carefully pin the tags, walk on eggshells all day and then return the suit after the interview. You can buy crappy suits in the teen section of Sears for $30-40 😀 I would also be sure to try and get the story in during the interview as a challenge I overcame or how I handled an unexpected situation or whatever.
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Yeah..... that would never workout out for me. lol Tailored suits for me.
 
baconshrimps said:
I don't think LizzyM is saying they disagree with the dress code of a particular school, but rather, on a more sentimental level, there is nothing 'unbecoming' of an aspiring physician to wear something other than a full on suit. Likewise, the onus is on the applicant (i.e., the person climbing the ladder) to 'dress to impress' but once they've reached a certain level in their training, the judgement is not on appearances so much as it is on ability. I can't tell you how many times (either as a patient, or volunteering, or shadowing) I have seen physicians wearing slacks or khakis, with a button down shirt, sometimes a tie, sometimes no tie.

I will always be a scrubs and sneakers kinda guy myself. Nothing better than a pair of comfortable pants when you are in the cath lab for hours on end. Then again, maybe I'l find myself most in my element in this attire:

il_570xN.445502447_s6kf.jpg
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Didn't say she believed anything, I was asking a question. And iI'm not debating what physicians wear in practice, we're talking about interviews. In the world of professional interviews you dress one step above the job you're applying for. In medicine, business casual is most common. Therefore, dressing business formal isn't unusual as an expectation. It's also not a requirement, it's up to the interviewer to determine what is appropriate.

Deadlifts said:
I would assume that business formal wear could also make it harder to connect with some patients as well?
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I think that's a bit of a stretch. IIRC Mayo enforces suits because it signifies eessential components of a healthy doctor-patient relationship, including trust, respect, and confidence. Pretty sure there wwere studies done on this but I'm not digging around on my phone...
LizzyM said:
In a cliinical setting, I think business formal could be downright unsanitary, or very expensive. Or maybe attending physicians in those settings never get their hands, or their suits, dirty.
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Potentially, certainly. Things like ties are never washed, but should also never touch a pt. So i agree its probably not sanitary. Expensive is a bit of a stretch though, suits are pretty affordable - if you want them to be. I owned three suits on a $10/hr job without eating out of a garbage
 
PreMedOrDead said:
Potentially, certainly. Things like ties are never washed, but should also never touch a pt. So i agree its probably not sanitary. Expensive is a bit of a stretch though, suits are pretty affordable - if you want them to be. I owned three suits on a $10/hr job without eating out of a garbage
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I was thinking of dry cleaning bills... How often is that suit jacket cleaned? Can you get a stain out be it blood, vomitus, or something else? Yes, there are machine washable suits (for women anyway) but the fabric is usually a fright. In instances where you can end up with ick on your clothing, I think it is most sanitary to be dressed in machine washable clothing that is laundered regularly (daily in some cases).
 
PreMedOrDead said:
Potentially, certainly. Things like ties are never washed, but should also never touch a pt. So i agree its probably not sanitary. Expensive is a bit of a stretch though, suits are pretty affordable - if you want them to be. I owned three suits on a $10/hr job without eating out of a garbage
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Scrubs is the way to go. I wouldnt wear my Banana Republic shirt into clinic left alone my suits. After got vomited on by a 9 months old child and blood squirted at you, you dont wanna risk an expensive, tailored suit.
 
LabratABQ said:
Scrubs is the way to go. I wouldnt wear my Banana Republic shirt into clinic left alone my suits. After got vomited on by a 9 months old child and blood squirted at you, you dont wanna risk an expensive, tailored suit.
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I was more just curious what LizzyM thought of that policy, not arguing for it. I don't really have a problem with suits in an interview because most 20-somethings should have put their big boy pants on by now and gotten some professional attire anyways.


If Liz thinks it's okay someone interviews in scrubs, she's more than welcome to give rave reviews to the next person who comes into her office completely underdressed, it's her own prerogative. I don't see anything wrong with expecting a premed to show some professionalism
 
LizzyM said:
But with few exceptions, patients see and hear the physicians who treat them and it is valid to use body language and spoken communications to assess candidates.
Click to expand...
Seems like you're putting the cart before the horse. Is not the goal of medical school to teach how to interact with patients regarding their health and disease? Basing your interview off how an individual performs on this metric prior to instruction seems a bit unfair. Likewise, there are many careers in medicine, pathology and radiology to name two, wherein the doctor may have literally no spoken communication with patients.
 
neusu said:
Seems like you're putting the cart before the horse. Is not the goal of medical school to teach how to interact with patients regarding their health and disease? Basing your interview off how an individual performs on this metric prior to instruction seems a bit unfair. Likewise, there are many careers in medicine, pathology and radiology to name two, wherein the doctor may have literally no spoken communication with patients.
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Before someoen gets to pathology or radiology, they need to get through the clerkships and electives. They need to get through small group work with fellow students. The ability to speak clearly, to communicate ideas effectively using apprpriate vocabulary and grammar, we can't teach that in medical school. We aren't here to remediate people who sit slumped in the chair and speak in a whisper while looking down at the floor. Keep in mind too, that even those who never see patients face to face do need to communicate with other team members, often through dictation.
 
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LizzyM said:
I was thinking of dry cleaning bills... How often is that suit jacket cleaned? Can you get a stain out be it blood, vomitus, or something else? Yes, there are machine washable suits (for women anyway) but the fabric is usually a fright. In instances where you can end up with ick on your clothing, I think it is most sanitary to be dressed in machine washable clothing that is laundered regularly (daily in some cases).
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For someone in med school administration, I can't believe you haven't brought up this most obvious of points:

THE WHITE COAT!

It is what can protect you from 'ick'. To a large degree. Many docs I see (I work at a cancer center) will wear suit. When in clinic they take off the jacket and replace with a white coat (that says '... MD, Best Medical School'). The surgeons will (understandably) sometimes walk around in scrubs. Ultimately, suits here seem to be the norm.
 
masaraksh said:
For someone in med school administration, I can't believe you haven't brought up this most obvious of points:

THE WHITE COAT!

It is what can protect you from 'ick'. To a large degree. Many docs I see (I work at a cancer center) will wear suit. When in clinic they take off the jacket and replace with a white coat (that says '... MD, Best Medical School'). The surgeons will (understandably) sometimes walk around in scrubs. Ultimately, suits here seem to be the norm.
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No one wears a white coat over a suit jacket or blazer. So, already the typical "doctor garb" is not a business suit if it is a white coat. That's not to say that everyone wears a white coat. And some of those coats should see the inside of a washing machine more often than they do. I wouldn't have people do interviews in white coats but I do like the fantasy of interviewing people in scrubs.
 
LizzyM said:
No one wears a white coat over a suit jacket or blazer. So, already the typical "doctor garb" is not a business suit if it is a white coat. That's not to say that everyone wears a white coat. And some of those coats should see the inside of a washing machine more often than they do. I wouldn't have people do interviews in white coats but I do like the fantasy of interviewing people in scrubs.
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Yes that should be obvious - of course you don't wear a white coat over a jacket. However, I still think it is a 'suit' if you wear the suit to work but on a clinical day swap the jacket for a white coat.

As for cleanliness of white coats: the ones I see docs wearing are pretty clean and pressed.


There is a doc I see who wears a 3 piece suit + bow-tie every single day. cray cray.
 
LizzyM said:
No one wears a white coat over a suit jacket or blazer. So, already the typical "doctor garb" is not a business suit if it is a white coat. That's not to say that everyone wears a white coat. And some of those coats should see the inside of a washing machine more often than they do. I wouldn't have people do interviews in white coats but I do like the fantasy of interviewing people in scrubs.
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They should wear the whitecoats that lab peeps wear. None absorbable and disposable.
 
LizzyM said:
In my fantasy land, interviewees would be escorted to a locker room and be asked to change into school provided scrubs for the rest of the day... It would take "fashion sense" and the cash to dress well off the table in the admissions process.
Click to expand...

I like your fantasy land.
 
The last EM attending (assistant PD) I shadowed wore slacks, a tshirt, a sweater to cover up the tshirt, and a local hockey team's hat. I think that at a certain point in your training you stop trying to impress people and just focus on your job. After all, your ability to dx and treat patients is far more important than having the newest banana republic line in your closet. He was the most down to Earth physician that I have shadowed thus far and I think his patients and residents enjoyed working with him because of it.

I think that there is a fine line between professionalism and grunginess. I agree with Lizzy M's idea of slacks and a button up shirt/tie being acceptable for interviews, but I think that if anything the change will have to come at the school's level, not the interviewees. Information for the interview usually dictates what is professional attire and if it is insisted upon for no-suits, that changes the game.

I personally feel that it is crappy that this process puts so much financial strain on med school hopefuls. Application costs, flight costs, suit costs, hotel and car rentals costs? The easiest one to relieve is the attire.
 
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HopefulReapp said:
The last EM attending (assistant PD) I shadowed wore slacks, a tshirt, a sweater to cover up the tshirt, and a local hockey team's hat. I think that at a certain point in your training you stop trying to impress people and just focus on your job. After all, your ability to dx and treat patients is far more important than having the newest banana republic line in your closet. He was the most down to Earth physician that I have shadowed thus far and I think his patients and residents enjoyed working with him because of it.
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You're aiming for quite a low bar there...
 
HopefulReapp said:
I'm not sure what the point of your insult was, but it definitely goes to prove the wealth disparity of those going into medicine.
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My only point was that banana republic sucks. You're reading more into it than there is.

And as for the wealth disparity...

you can either buy $75 dress shirts and then have to replace them in a year or so because they are such poor construction...

or you can buy $100 dress shirts from any number of other places and have them last 3-4 times as long.

Which is the better financial choice?
 
southernIM said:
My only point was that banana republic sucks. You're reading more into it than there is.

And as for the wealth disparity...

you can either buy $75 dress shirts and then have to replace them in a year or so because they are such poor construction...

or you can buy $100 dress shirts from any number of other places and have them last 3-4 times as long.

Which is the better financial choice?
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I'm not sure, I've had the same few buttondown shirts from Express that I got on sale a few years ago. Oh well. I see Banana Republic as a store I've never been able to afford, you can imagine why my reaction was how it was. c'est la vie.. I'm all done.

My original post focused on applicant merit being determined on their academics and successes. I guess I model my argument on why private schools use uniforms.
 
HopefulReapp said:
I'm not sure, I've had the same few buttondown shirts from Express that I got on sale a few years ago. Oh well. I see Banana Republic as a store I've never been able to afford, you can imagine why my reaction was how it was. c'est la vie.. I'm all done.

My original post focused on applicant merit being determined on their academics and successes. I guess I model my argument on why private schools use uniforms.
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Yeah you're definitely reading too much into it. Banana Republic is overpriced and just looks weird in a bad way:

Banana-Republic-Mad-Men-Collection.jpg


:vomit:
 
itsthat1guy said:
Our you could let them air dry and they'll never shrink
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I did air dry them, and washed them on cold, that's why I didn't even bother checking if they'd shrunk or not. I never wear dress shirts, so I really wasnt expecting it. They fit perfectly when I bought them, and only shrank a small amount, perhaps half an inch, but it was enough to make them quite uncomfortable around the neck.

After looking over a website on buying the damn things, it turns out some brands are engineered to be whatever neck size it says on the package after a wash. A half inch of shrinkage in the sleeves and neck is not only normal but expected for some brands, which state as much on their tags. I didn't have my measurements taken, just bought what fit well off the shelf. Perhaps I was just buying a neck size too small- I'll get everything measured if I get another interview.
 
Mad Jack said:
I did air dry them, and washed them on cold, that's why I didn't even bother checking if they'd shrunk or not. I never wear dress shirts, so I really wasnt expecting it. They fit perfectly when I bought them, and only shrank a small amount, perhaps half an inch, but it was enough to make them quite uncomfortable around the neck.

After looking over a website on buying the damn things, it turns out some brands are engineered to be whatever neck size it says on the package after a wash. A half inch of shrinkage in the sleeves and neck is not only normal but expected for some brands, which state as much on their tags. I didn't have my measurements taken, just bought what fit well off the shelf. Perhaps I was just buying a neck size too small- I'll get everything measured if I get another interview.
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Just go dressed as young jeezy.
 
LizzyM said:
In my fantasy land, interviewees would be escorted to a locker room and be asked to change into school provided scrubs for the rest of the day... It would take "fashion sense" and the cash to dress well off the table in the admissions process.
Click to expand...
Unless there's a rule that interviewees can't bring a needle and thread, I foresee that fashion gunners would do some quick tailoring to gain points on the Professionalism scale. SDNers, being the proactive support types that they are, would start threads with sewing tips to best alter each school's favorite brand name. All else being equal, acceptances would be highly weighted toward those with manual dexterity and and the foresight to bring matching thread.
 
Catalystik said:
Unless there's a rule that interviewees can't bring a needle and thread, I foresee that fashion gunners would do some quick tailoring to gain points on the Professionalism scale. SDNers, being the proactive support types that they are, would start threads with sewing tips to best alter each school's favorite brand name. All else being equal, acceptances would be highly weighted toward those with manual dexterity and and the foresight to bring matching thread.
Click to expand...

That could be a feature, not a bug, if we want to select for candidates with "good hands" and planning skills.
 
LizzyM said:
That could be a feature, not a bug, if we want to select for candidates with "good hands" and planning skills.
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... Or for the fatter/more muscular candidates since their physique would be better at filling out scrubs without a need for tailoring.
 
LizzyM said:
That could be a feature, not a bug, if we want to select for candidates with "good hands" and planning skills.
Click to expand...
And of course, it would be a bit of a "stress interview" if you were handed previously-modified scrubs that no longer accommodated your build, and you'd forgotten to bring tiny scissors to undo stitches. Selects for problem-solving skills and maybe teamwork?
 
LizzyM said:
That could be a feature, not a bug, if we want to select for candidates with "good hands" and planning skills.
Click to expand...
Catalystik said:
And of course, it would be a bit of a "stress interview" if you were handed previously-modified scrubs that no longer accommodated your build, and you'd forgotten to bring tiny scissors to undo stitches. Selects for problem-solving skills and maybe teamwork?
Click to expand...
So... this is the thrilling behind-the-scenes banter AdCom members partake in when not flipping through applications... Hmmm...
 
Catalystik said:
And of course, it would be a bit of a "stress interview" if you were handed previously-modified scrubs that no longer accommodated your build, and you'd forgotten to bring tiny scissors to undo stitches. Selects for problem-solving skills and maybe teamwork?
Click to expand...

Sounds like something Northwestern would do.
 
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