IPE in school and frustration

[KeikoTanaka]

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Sorry for the rant. I just get stressed out by this lately. I can't help but notice that everywhere I look, people are going back to school to become NPs and PAs. It's all over social media, articles being thrown at me, etc Just the other day I was talking to someone and halfway through our conversation we both realized we were students. He was in NP school and I in med school. This person said their plan was to open up their own private practice and be a general NP.

Idk why, but it just infuriates me that more and more people are doing this, and their reasoning is always "Well medical school loans are horrible... I can do this much cheaper and easier!". So I asked them straight up: "Hey, so I've never asked an NP this personally, but, don't you get worried about the prospect of practicing independently? I've learned so much in medical school... so many nuanced things that can make or break major diagnoses and have life altering implications in various pathologies. If you aren't learning this in school, do you feel like you'll be prepared to work independently?"

And their answer was basically that they will work under a physician for ~5 years then make their own practice and that they're not like "their NP counterparts" and they are much more open to experimenting and researching on their own and asking questions, and that "Physicians are also always learning too, so we're all in the same boat". And that after 5 years they'll learn "enough about everything" they won't need supervision.

I just didn't know what to say. There was such an element of cockiness and confidence, like it's just some "casual thing" they'll do - they'll just get their NP and go to work and see patients. It didn't even seem to concern him he could be missing vital pockets of information that can be so life altering to patients.

My school, as all of your schools too... makes us do these IPE projects, per COCA... But honestly the last thing I want to do is go to a convention and work with NPs and PAs who have this attitude, and not only that but actively assist in HELPING their education. Of course who knows, I could have a great time with nice people... But there is just something so unnerving about this "Willy nilly I'll just be an NP and treat people independently who needs the stress of medical school changing my life!?!" that doesn't sit right with me. I'm working my ass off to learn so many things about sooo many antibiotics and drugs and contraindications and what not... and as I look toward 3rd year rotations next year I'm scared ****less about all the stuff I need to recall, and this panics me. Yet they didn't even learn this stuff to recall in the first place......

It just makes me mad that I am afraid to even pursue Primary Care as a field now knowing it may very well be saturated with FNPs everywhere in 10 years driving down quality and salaries. Sigh. Sorry for the rant.

 

[Hopeful101]

I totally agree. I only wonder what their mal practice insurance will be though!

 

[Goro]

Sorry for the rant. I just get stressed out by this lately. I can't help but notice that everywhere I look, people are going back to school to become NPs and PAs. It's all over social media, articles being thrown at me, etc Just the other day I was talking to someone and halfway through our conversation we both realized we were students. He was in NP school and I in med school. This person said their plan was to open up their own private practice and be a general NP.

Idk why, but it just infuriates me that more and more people are doing this, and their reasoning is always "Well medical school loans are horrible... I can do this much cheaper and easier!". So I asked them straight up: "Hey, so I've never asked an NP this personally, but, don't you get worried about the prospect of practicing independently? I've learned so much in medical school... so many nuanced things that can make or break major diagnoses and have life altering implications in various pathologies. If you aren't learning this in school, do you feel like you'll be prepared to work independently?"

And their answer was basically that they will work under a physician for ~5 years then make their own practice and that they're not like "their NP counterparts" and they are much more open to experimenting and researching on their own and asking questions, and that "Physicians are also always learning too, so we're all in the same boat". And that after 5 years they'll learn "enough about everything" they won't need supervision.

I just didn't know what to say. There was such an element of cockiness and confidence, like it's just some "casual thing" they'll do - they'll just get their NP and go to work and see patients. It didn't even seem to concern him he could be missing vital pockets of information that can be so life altering to patients.

My school, as all of your schools too... makes us do these IPE projects, per COCA... But honestly the last thing I want to do is go to a convention and work with NPs and PAs who have this attitude, and not only that but actively assist in HELPING their education. Of course who knows, I could have a great time with nice people... But there is just something so unnerving about this "Willy nilly I'll just be an NP and treat people independently who needs the stress of medical school changing my life!?!" that doesn't sit right with me. I'm working my ass off to learn so many things about sooo many antibiotics and drugs and contraindications and what not... and as I look toward 3rd year rotations next year I'm scared ****less about all the stuff I need to recall, and this panics me. Yet they didn't even learn this stuff to recall in the first place......

It just makes me mad that I am afraid to even pursue Primary Care as a field now knowing it may very well be saturated with FNPs everywhere in 10 years driving down quality and salaries. Sigh. Sorry for the rant.

You do you and stop worrying about them.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Further you get thru school the less you will worry about MLPs. Most know less than a halfway MS3

Doesn't matter what they know tho, its what the states and public allow them to do. However I agree that their knowledge base is generally weak. Of course most of them have zero insight into that. Just had a PA student give me bad advice today acting like they were 'helping' me rather condescendingly. I literally just didn't say anything to them after that. The advice was completely wrong. I just mentally shook my head and reminded myself not to hire a midlevel.

 

[Alkain]

Doesn't matter what they know tho, its what the states and public allow them to do. However I agree that their knowledge base is generally weak. Of course most of them have zero insight into that. Just had a PA student give me bad advice today acting like they were 'helping' me rather condescendingly. I literally just didn't say anything to them after that. The advice was completely wrong. I just mentally shook my head and reminded myself not to hire a midlevel.

Handle them how a penguin would.

 

[Neopolymath]

Interprofessional trash required by COCA is bad for numerous reasons but by far the worst part is that every session is really a "we have the med students captive so we can just bitch about doctors at them" aspect. There has been absolutely no two-way communication during these things. It appears to be strictly about neutering and culturing the future generations of physicians to be a bunch of ******* who say provider and that everyone should sing kumbaya while we have the other side of the coin at outright proverbial war with us. In fact, the sane people from other programs don't want to be at them either. The only people who need this aren't going to get the point and everyone else learned the way to act at 17. Perhaps schools should do a better job of not admitting weirdos and sociopaths so the rest of us aren't subjected to this.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

The most dangerous practitioners are the ones who dont know what they dont know.

 

[NecFasc92]

Interprofessional trash required by COCA is bad for numerous reasons but by far the worst part is that every session is really a "we have the med students captive so we can just bitch about doctors at them" aspect. There has been absolutely no two-way communication during these things. It appears to be strictly about neutering and culturing the future generations of physicians. In fact, the sane people from other programs don't want to be at them either. Perhaps schools should do a better job of not admitting weirdos and sociopaths so the rest of us aren't subjected to this.

Just another step the baby boomers have done to sell out the future for a cash grab

 

[Neopolymath]

The most dangerous practitioners are the ones who dont know what they dont know.

A simple Dunning–Kruger effect slide could revolutionize NP curriculum

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Interprofessional trash required by COCA is bad for numerous reasons but by far the worst part is that every session is really a "we have the med students captive so we can just bitch about doctors at them" aspect. There has been absolutely no two-way communication during these things. It appears to be strictly about neutering and culturing the future generations of physicians to be a bunch of ******* who say provider and that everyone should sing kumbaya while we have the other side of the coin at outright proverbial war with us. In fact, the sane people from other programs don't want to be at them either. The only people who need this aren't going to get the point and everyone else learned the way to act at 17. Perhaps schools should do a better job of not admitting weirdos and sociopaths so the rest of us aren't subjected to this.

If someone tells me I HAVE to say something I'm def gonna be vocal about my opposition haha. Ugh, im dreading this. I think it will mostly be RNs though at my meeting, not sure. Given the region i'm in there aren't any NP students nearby. So it will probably be Respiratory Techs, EMS, and RN, which I don't mind.

 

[Medic741]

Sorry for the rant. I just get stressed out by this lately. I can't help but notice that everywhere I look, people are going back to school to become NPs and PAs. It's all over social media, articles being thrown at me, etc Just the other day I was talking to someone and halfway through our conversation we both realized we were students. He was in NP school and I in med school. This person said their plan was to open up their own private practice and be a general NP.

Idk why, but it just infuriates me that more and more people are doing this, and their reasoning is always "Well medical school loans are horrible... I can do this much cheaper and easier!". So I asked them straight up: "Hey, so I've never asked an NP this personally, but, don't you get worried about the prospect of practicing independently? I've learned so much in medical school... so many nuanced things that can make or break major diagnoses and have life altering implications in various pathologies. If you aren't learning this in school, do you feel like you'll be prepared to work independently?"

And their answer was basically that they will work under a physician for ~5 years then make their own practice and that they're not like "their NP counterparts" and they are much more open to experimenting and researching on their own and asking questions, and that "Physicians are also always learning too, so we're all in the same boat". And that after 5 years they'll learn "enough about everything" they won't need supervision.

I just didn't know what to say. There was such an element of cockiness and confidence, like it's just some "casual thing" they'll do - they'll just get their NP and go to work and see patients. It didn't even seem to concern him he could be missing vital pockets of information that can be so life altering to patients.

My school, as all of your schools too... makes us do these IPE projects, per COCA... But honestly the last thing I want to do is go to a convention and work with NPs and PAs who have this attitude, and not only that but actively assist in HELPING their education. Of course who knows, I could have a great time with nice people... But there is just something so unnerving about this "Willy nilly I'll just be an NP and treat people independently who needs the stress of medical school changing my life!?!" that doesn't sit right with me. I'm working my ass off to learn so many things about sooo many antibiotics and drugs and contraindications and what not... and as I look toward 3rd year rotations next year I'm scared ****less about all the stuff I need to recall, and this panics me. Yet they didn't even learn this stuff to recall in the first place......

It just makes me mad that I am afraid to even pursue Primary Care as a field now knowing it may very well be saturated with FNPs everywhere in 10 years driving down quality and salaries. Sigh. Sorry for the rant.

If you ever want to switch careers medical malpractice will be an option being an expert witness for horrendous care. Just food for thought

 

[Giovanotto]

Thankfully at my school it was fairly decent. We didn't have any nurses in our group, it was pharmacy and vet students. They knew their place, and we were actually a good resource for them and I learned a bunch about vet medicine, which I have always liked. I went in expecting to get triggered though, so it was a pleasant surprise.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Thankfully at my school it was fairly decent. We didn't have any nurses in our group, it was pharmacy and vet students. They knew their place, and we were actually a good resource for them and I learned a bunch about vet medicine, which I have always liked. I went in expecting to get triggered though, so it was a pleasant surprise.

Vet students were definitely the best to work with. Everyone else was trying to convince us how expanding thier practice wasn't them trying to practice medicine.

 

[Synchronous]

This is just one of the many hoops you’re going to have to jump through on your way to your goal. This stuff doesn’t stop once you graduate medical school either. There’s always some bs they’re (meaning administrators) are going to make you do.

 

[Roxas]

Interprofessional trash required by COCA is bad for numerous reasons but by far the worst part is that every session is really a "we have the med students captive so we can just bitch about doctors at them" aspect. There has been absolutely no two-way communication during these things. It appears to be strictly about neutering and culturing the future generations of physicians to be a bunch of ******* who say provider and that everyone should sing kumbaya while we have the other side of the coin at outright proverbial war with us. In fact, the sane people from other programs don't want to be at them either. The only people who need this aren't going to get the point and everyone else learned the way to act at 17. Perhaps schools should do a better job of not admitting weirdos and sociopaths so the rest of us aren't subjected to this.

You hit the nail on the head right here. I recall attending several of these IPEs throughout preclinical and this was all it was, just complete ****ting on our profession and all of our ills. Heaven help us all that our leadership has absolutely no balls throughout any of this, we as trainees are powerless to do anything, and physicians as a whole are too busy squabbling amongst ourselves to realize or care what is happening.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

This is just one of the many hoops you’re going to have to jump through on your way to your goal. This stuff doesn’t stop once you graduate medical school either. There’s always some bs they’re (meaning administrators) are going to make you do.

His point is that attendings keep jumping through hoops and don't push back which leads to more and more trampling on our scope and our ability to practice. We can't push back much as students, but attendings should, and they aren't while every other professions below us has large amounts of their members coming after us aggressively. The appeasement doesn't work with aggressors (as before WW2), and neither will rolling over for midlevels/nurses/PT/pharmacy etc.