IR procedures checklist

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drjaymehta

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what all are the procedures done by the interventional radiologist....

what is the difference between an interventional nephrologist, gastroenterologist, pulmonologist etc when compared to an IR..
 
I think the reason you're not getting a ton of replies to your questions (even if you triple post) is that no one knows the definitive answer.

As it stands right now, there is an overlap between the procedures done by all these fields. (You've mentioned these other fields in previous posts but you've left out interventional cardiologists and vascular surgeons in this post)

Some people embrace that challenge and look forward to "carving their own niche out" even in the face of other specialties encroaching on their turf. Others (like me for instance) were deterred by this uncertainty and opted to pursue another field.
 
good reply..but just to let u know, i dint intend to triple post..my con was slow, and i refreshed it which led to three posts..

btw i m not waiting for a ton of replies, as i already have more than 50 in my last 2 posts..

also, thanks for ur inputs..
 
I don't know if it's the case with IR, but from what I've read at least in neuro IR there seems to be many new procedures coming up, and more stuff now goes to the neurointerventionist instead of the neurosurgeon.
 
what all are the procedures done by the interventional radiologist....

what is the difference between an interventional nephrologist, gastroenterologist, pulmonologist etc when compared to an IR..

IR is a changing field which is facing turf battles with other speciaties. Why? Because what we do works, some of it better than what they have and now they want it for themselves.

Interventional pulmonology - tracheal/bronchial stents, Denver catheter
GI - esophageal, colonic, duodenal stents
Nephrology - Dialysis access, tunneled catheters, AV Fistula / Graft declots
Vascular surgery + Cardiology - angioplasty, stents, stent grafts, IVC filters, carotid stents
Surg/Onc- ports for chemotherapy (easy to do and lucrative)

Neurosurgery/Neurology - transcranial doppler, endovascular repair of avms and aneurysms
Interventional pain - kyphoplasty, facet injections
Orthospine - kyphoplasty

The difference is that pretty much all of these procedures were developed by radiologists. All of the first four categories can be done by an IR. But any one of the subspecialists listed cant really do what any of the other subspecialist does.

The last three can be performed by a neuro IR.

In addition these are things only done by IR:

Fibroid embolization competes directly with myomectomy or hysterectomy, but OB does not perform UFE.
Chemoembolization/Y90 Radioembolization/RFA/Cryoplasty are complementary what Surg Oncs do when a patient is not a candidate for surgery. Portal vein embolization, can get make a non operable patient a candidate for potentialy curable resection.

In addition to the above an Interventional radiologist performs cross sectional image guided biopsies, abcess drainages, which are less invasive to patients then the open surgical alternatives.

When Urology can't get their stent in from below, or they need urinary diversion to heal a ureteral injury, or access for lithotripsy, they call on us to do a perc neph. We can snag their stents from above, or even put in a double J stent from above.

PTC/biliary drainages compete with ERCP when the GI doc cant get his stent in from below.

TIPS competes with splenorenal surgical shunt creation for portal hypertension. Actually I don't think any surgeons perform them any more, patients just bleed like stink.


IR now and in the future:

IR didn't become a specialty in its own right until about 30 years ago, but its definitely here to stay. You want to see the future of IR? You don't necessarily have to be in a podunk town to practice the kind of IR you want. Look at these guys...

www.endovascularsurgery.com

These are IR CLINICIANS that happen to be radiologists by training. I saw their website 2 years ago when they first started, it was just Padidar and Reza. At that time the website was very basic. Its now a first rate production. Now they brought in other IRs and even vascular surgeons that work for THEM. The ancillary staff has more than doubled in size. They brought in an consultant to help expand theire business. These guys are doing VERY WELL and doing almost exclusively high-end cases in a competitive market (Bay area). This is just one example that IR is alive and well with a bright future.

IR IMO is one of the coolest gigs in all of medicine.
The proof is that the cardiologists, vascular surgeons, neurosurgeons, neurologists, now 'interventional nephrologists' and 'interventional pulmonologists'... they all want to learn to do what we've developed and have already been doing...

Now that I am coming to near the end of my IR fellowship-- Just like the first day of fellowship, I still look forward to going to work everyday.
 
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Hans,

Thanks for your nice assessment of the field. I have a couple of questions. I'm interested in procedures and have been debating between IR and neuro IR. Do you also see a lot of future with neuro IR? why does the neuro IR fellowship take 2 more years than general IR (1 year dx neuro + 2 years neuro IR)? Finally, if you do general IR, can you do some neuro procedures? Thanks again.
 
Isnt most of the Intervention In the field of radiology shifting to MRI guided and PET/CT based interventions..

If that is actually true then the scope of turf wars and all will be totally finished, isnt it..
 
Isnt most of the Intervention In the field of radiology shifting to MRI guided and PET/CT based interventions..

If that is actually true then the scope of turf wars and all will be totally finished, isnt it..

Where are you getting this information from. MRI guided biopsies and possibly RFA are being performed at select institutions, I would not say that its wide-spread. To say that 'most' procedures are MR guided is 'misguided'. No pun intended.
 
Hans,

I'm interested in procedures and have been debating between IR and neuro IR. Do you also see a lot of future with neuro IR? why does the neuro IR fellowship take 2 more years than general IR (1 year dx neuro + 2 years neuro IR)? Finally, if you do general IR, can you do some neuro procedures? Thanks again.

There is definitely a future with neuro IR. Coiling is less morbid than clipping, and coiling has matured into more applications that were once reseved for only clipping, ie stent assisted coiling in wide-neck aneursyms.

Kyphoplasty is a great procedure. Minimally invasive disckectomy is being explored. Stroke intervention is a widely untapped market IMO simply due to the lack of man-power to offer 24/7 acute stroke services. It is a long road. I considered neuroIR, but i missed the boat.

I applied for IR and inquired about NeuroIR to see if i should apply to dx neuro for the radiology match. Most of the neuro IR spots i was interested in filled way before the diagnostic match even opened! Had I known this, I would have gotten things ready a year earlier.

If you are looking at NIR, inquire your R2 year, R3 is too late!
 
Hey Hans, I saw the list of procedures than an IR can do. But what about a general radiologist (diagnostic). What kinds of procedures can he/she do and how feasible is it to lets say, read films 3-4 days a week and do procedures 1-2 days/wk?
 
Hey Hans, I saw the list of procedures than an IR can do. But what about a general radiologist (diagnostic). What kinds of procedures can he/she do and how feasible is it to lets say, read films 3-4 days a week and do procedures 1-2 days/wk?

Very. That is basically what I'll be doing in July.
 
How does that work? Are they all promised spots outside of the match? Which specialties are filling most of the NIR fellowships?

Its misleading. Diagnostic Neuro (along with IR and peds are the few rads fellowships that are part of a match). If you plan to do fellowship immediately after residency then you would apply for the match during your pgy4(R3) year.

NIR is does not participate with the match (neither does mammo or MSK or Body). The problem is that if you want a neuro IR spot to begin immediately after your DX neuro fellowship ends you would have to apply for for it way in advance of the DX neuro spot. Its akin to applying to Cardiology fellowship your MS3 year, when you apply to IM your MS4 year.

The best spots for NIR are filled now way through 2013.
 
The best spots for NIR are filled now way through 2013.

hans, thanks again for your input.

So when would you recommend one should start inquiring about INR spots? I start internship this summer, so I haven't even started radiology residency.

Which places come to your mind as good programs where to train for INR? How competitive are they? I've looked at the programs at MGH, MIR and UCSF. I'll be doing my residency at a pretty good program, so I'm wondering how difficult it'll be to land in one of those fellowships.

Finally, do INR guys also do diagnostic neuro?

Thanks,
 
hans, thanks again for your input.

So when would you recommend one should start inquiring about INR spots? I start internship this summer, so I haven't even started radiology residency.

Which places come to your mind as good programs where to train for INR? How competitive are they? I've looked at the programs at MGH, MIR and UCSF. I'll be doing my residency at a pretty good program, so I'm wondering how difficult it'll be to land in one of those fellowships.

Finally, do INR guys also do diagnostic neuro?

Thanks,
NIR guys can also do dx neuro. The most famous, doesn't necessarily mean hands on, are Emory (Jacques Dion), UCSF (though issues with NS), UCLA (Vinuela, Duckworth), Cornell (Pierre Gobin), Berenstein (the Granddaddy of NIR) is at one of the private programs in NYC, I forget which one. I'm sure im missing some. The point is I don't know how hands on these fellowships are, but they are the best known programs for NIR. Other good programs: MGH, Stanford, MIR (2 years including the DX neuro).

If you are interested get involved early. It shouldn't be hard for ANY radiologist to get into NIR as long as you get your stuff in early. Good luck!
 
Hey Hans,

Apart from the major oncology related stuff that you have mentioned..

Do the Interventional Rads happen to do a lot of the peripheral interventional work..

Could you please share any recent breakthroughs in the field of Interventional Radiology..with all of us..

Thanks..
 
You can do a lot of peripheral work but you have to be able to get your patients. Vascular Surgery can do these as well. You can do a lot of things with VIR. You will have to find your niche and make sure the other docs that refer know it as well. There are a lot of patients out there, don't isolate your self from your 'competition'.
 
also interventional cardiology can do peripherals as well
 
Hey Hans, I saw the list of procedures than an IR can do. But what about a general radiologist (diagnostic). What kinds of procedures can he/she do and how feasible is it to lets say, read films 3-4 days a week and do procedures 1-2 days/wk?

I have always been curious about this too. What procedures can a diagnostic radiologist do and what procedures can only IR do? I guess what I'm getting at is what does that extra year (of fellowship) to go into IR get you over sticking with diagnostic rad only, if diagnostic rads can do procedures too? Thanks👍
 
I have always been curious about this too. What procedures can a diagnostic radiologist do and what procedures can only IR do? I guess what I'm getting at is what does that extra year (of fellowship) to go into IR get you over sticking with diagnostic rad only, if diagnostic rads can do procedures too? Thanks👍

As a resident you may get plenty of experience as a first operator placing lines or draining abcesses or doing biopsies. For anything more involved you will need to do a fellowship to gain sufficient experience as the primary operator. Some residencies will let you get hands on experience with more advanced procedures, but most hospitals will not credential you to do those procedures unless you can demonstrate that you've done the fellowship.

Some of the procedures are actually easy if you do them with meticulous technique. These same procedures are also very easy to f--- up and you can very easily hurt or kill someone with a seemingly mundane procedure. Thats were the experience of a fellowship comes in.

Then there are technically more involved procedures such as TIPS, Chemoembos, Vertebroplasties that you simply WILL NOT learn to do proficiently from 3 months of IR rotation during residency. The technical aspect is often the easy part. The tough part is the work-up and the post procedure care.
 
I agree, a diagnostic radiologist may be able to do some basic procedures.
1. abscess drains
2. biopsies
3. lp/myelograms/arthrograms/joint injections
4. paracentesis, thoracentesis
5. picc lines, central lines

Some other diagnostic guys with more of a penchant for IR can also probably do (etc)

1. Fistula declots
2. g tubes etc

But, most radiologists don't do the following without dedicated IR training.
1.percutaneous abdominal or thoracic aneurysm repair /endografting
2. Lower extremity revascularization procedures
3. renal stenting; mesenteric stenting
4. carotid stenting/ stroke thrombectomy or thrombolysis/intracranial angioplasty
5. lung, liver, kidney. bone rfa or cryoablation
6. uterine artery embolization
7. chemoembolization, y90 therapy, drug eluting beeds, hepatic infusion ports, isolated limb infusion, portal vein embolization
8. dvt thrombolysis/ivc filters/pa lysis
9. varicose vein therapy/laser/ambulatory phlebectomy/sclerotherapy
10. GI bleeder embolization/TIPS
11. Biliary procedures /stents
12. arterial thrombolysis/portal vein lysis
13. vertebroplasty, kyphoplasty, facet injections, esi, coblation, pain pumps, idet, rhizotomy

Most diagnostic radiologists don't have dedicated clinic and in my opinion it is a must for those IR who do the majority of the above IR procedures. The hardest part is not necessarily doing the procedure but deciding who t do it on and who to not do it on. Knowledge of the disease may be the most critical part of the entire procedure.
 
Thanks to the last two posters, that completely answered my question.
 
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