Ireland or UK?

[zeyad]

Hey, assuming I get in somewhere in Dublin, i'll have myself a huge dilemma!
I've got a place in a UK medical school.. are they better than Irish schools? I'll be looking to go to the U.S after my medical education to specialise.. so maybe that should be taken into consideration. What does the American health system recognize more?

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[dancegirl]

Hey, assuming I get in somewhere in Dublin, i'll have myself a huge dilemma!
I've got a place in a UK medical school.. are they better than Irish schools? I'll be looking to go to the U.S after my medical education to specialise.. so maybe that should be taken into consideration. What does the American health system recognize more?

Hi zeyad!

I'm in the exact same position as you. I recently got accepted into a UK medical school and am finding it difficult trying to decide whether a UK or Irish med school would be better if I wanted to come back to Canada to specialise. If I can't come back to Canada, I would be willing to go to the US, since I have a lot of family there, but I would still prefer Canada.

If anyone can help with my situation as well, I would really appreciate it. So basically, I am wondering whether a medical school in the UK or Ireland is more recognized in Canada and the US.

By the way, if you don't mind me asking, what university did you get accepted to, zeyad? And are you coming from highschool or university?

 

[docolive]

Hey, assuming I get in somewhere in Dublin, i'll have myself a huge dilemma!
I've got a place in a UK medical school.. are they better than Irish schools? I'll be looking to go to the U.S after my medical education to specialise.. so maybe that should be taken into consideration. What does the American health system recognize more?

Congrats on getting accepted in the UK! At least now you do not have to stress about getting into an Irish school. I think both Ireland and the UK are equivalent in the grand scheme of things.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the UK is even more expensive than Ireland....I mean, the prices are outrageous.

 

[leorl]

figure out your pros and cons...where would you prefer location-wise? UK probably would be a bit more expensive, but Ireland can be expensive too. I don't know specifics about the colleges, but in general I would imagine them to be more efficient and clear-cut than Irish ones. Regarding US recognition, I wouldn't imagine it actually matters that much. Irish schools would be more well known...simply because there's may potentially be more graduates of Irish schools in the US. But going to a UK school wouldn't really "hurt" you in that regard.

 

[VeerTheTIGuy]

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but the UK is even more expensive than Ireland....I mean, the prices are outrageous.

I disagree. I was accepted to RCSI, but chose to go to the St. Andrews/Manchester program instead. According to RCSI's website, their fees for this year are €38,500 = $51,500. My fees are £16,700 $33,100. From what I understand, neither of those encompass halls of residence.

These prices were one of the reasons I chose St. Andrews over RCSI. RCSI seemed to be all gung-ho about getting my money (I even lost my €6,000 deposit), where as St. Andrews didnt ask for my money until October (a month after term started), and even said I could split it up if I wanted to (not sure if RCSI offered this).

Wherever you go I'm sure you'll get a great education and have a great time. btw, what UK universities did you guys get accepted to?

oh and also, I know of at least 2 people here at my university who chose it over RCSI

 

[zeyad]

Thanks for the replies! Currently, i've got places in Hull-York Medical School and UEA Medical school. I'm still waiting on Sheffield Medical school. I think if I get into Sheffield, I might sway away from Ireland as Sheffield has a great medical school and a wonderful student nightlife. However, i'm in LOVE with Dublin. I've been twice and loved it, plus Trinity is gorgeous. I never thought i'd consider turning down Trinity (assuming i get in, - unlikely).. but i've been having my doubts. To be quite honest, money isn't an issue as i'm being fully sponsored by the Qatar government.. that includes tuition fees, rents and living expenses. I think it goes down to:

1) University reputation and teaching standards
2) Adaptability to American health system (+ flexbility with taking USMLEs)
3) Student life

And btw, i'm a highschool-er..any more advice would be wonderul. Cheers again!

 

[MagicalTrevor]

High-schoolers are only eligible for UCD and RCSI. Guess that solves your problem .

 

[zeyad]

Thats not true for me, I'm doing the International Bacc... i'm eligible for Trinity!

 

[dancegirl]

Hi Guys!

Thanks so much for the replies as well!!!
I got accepted to the University of Birmingham for their 5 year program, and am still debating between the UK and Ireland. My main factors are:
-overall reputation in Canada and the US
-how easy it is to come back to Canada and the US after attending these institutions
-the medical education itself
-any assistance with USMLE prep and which school would prepare me more
-and the overall university experience

Have any of you heard anything about the medical program at the University of Birmingham?? positive or negative??

Any more help is greatly appreciated OH, and I'm a university graduate if that makes a difference

Thanks so much everyone!

 

[FionaS]

So I'm a Brum Uni graduate - of the british variety though, so can't really comment on the whole US to UK transition and back again.

That said - I really enjoyed my time at Brum, and it's a lovely city to live and work at. The education is fine, though I would emphasise that anatomy teaching is not exactly a strong point - no dissection time (not at all unusual in the UK), but also very little prosection time. Though apparently they've sorted a lot of that out, and there's lots more now they've extended the prosectorium.

Specifically though, there is no, as in zero, preparation for the USMLE. There may be a few american students who get together and study, but I wouldn't really know. But certainly the med school doesn't do anything at all regarding USMLE prep.

Otherwise, Brum is a fantastic place to be a student, and so long as you can make yourself study and use the opportunities available, you'll come out with a great knowledge base. They won't force you to study hard though!

No idea about rep in the US/Canada - I guess it's a big city, so most people have at least heard of Brum... (Though not as "Brum" I imagine - remember - it's bir-ming-um, not bir-ming-ham...)

Feel free to PM me with any questions etc, though work is busy at present, so no promises about swift replies!

 

[Blitz2006]

I disagree. I was accepted to RCSI, but chose to go to the St. Andrews/Manchester program instead. According to RCSI's website, their fees for this year are €38,500 = $51,500. My fees are £16,700 $33,100. From what I understand, neither of those encompass halls of residence.

These prices were one of the reasons I chose St. Andrews over RCSI. RCSI seemed to be all gung-ho about getting my money (I even lost my €6,000 deposit), where as St. Andrews didnt ask for my money until October (a month after term started), and even said I could split it up if I wanted to (not sure if RCSI offered this).

Wherever you go I'm sure you'll get a great education and have a great time. btw, what UK universities did you guys get accepted to?

oh and also, I know of at least 2 people here at my university who chose it over RCSI

Definitly can agree with Veer.

UK is far cheaper than Ireland, tuition and living expenses. I was accepted into Univ. of Birmingham last month, and I also applied to Ireland. Birmingham will be almost 100 000 cheaper than RCSI.....and RCSI is 4 years and Brum is 5 years...so even though RCSI is one less year, I'm still saving money.

Also, I think 5 years is an advantage over 4 years, since that extra summer = an extra summer of USMLE prep/research work/elective. I want to come back to the U.S, so I am willing to do whatever it takes to get back in.

Also, I figure there are many more opporutunities to gain clinical exposure/experiences since England's population is 15x Ireland's. Not saying Ireland is bad, but it comes down to population base (Much like U.S being 10x bigger than Canada, meaning 10x more oppourtunities).

Just my 2 cents.

 

[zeyad]

Hmm, good to hear different opinions. I think i'll setttle for Ireland if i get the choice. Several reasons for this. 1) Dublin is a capital city, so i'm assuming the teaching hospitals there are more likely to be large and advanced. 2) Dublin is a wonderful city. Love it. 3) I think with a larger North American contingent in Dublin, i'll be with students who are also working on USMLEs etc.. 4) Trinity is much more established than the universities i've been accepted to in the UK, and that can be an advantage.

That said, i'm reallly hoping to get into Trinity! Good to all!

 

[leorl]

Whoa, hang on, don't come for the wrong reasons... The hospitals are not large an advanced. They do alright...but don't be setting yourself up for a nice technologically advanced center. For instance, one of the Trinity hospitals only got PACS up and running this year, and a lot of times it crashes. There's no electronic records - Charts, Xrays, you name it still go missing. The other trinity hospital is marginally better and a bit more organized, but it's an hour away from the city.

Also, with regards to other US students taking the USMLE - yes, there's a lot of north americans taking the USMLE...but we generally tend not to work together because people's schedule for taking the USMLE is different. There might be pairs of people working together, but don't imagine there being organized group study sessions for it because it doesn't quite work like that.

I wouldn't take Trinity's "establishment" that much into account. At the end of the day, an FMG is an FMG. They know traditionally that Irish grads are good, and expect the same of UK grads. Most people in educated circles would have heard of the Univ. of Birmingham. Where you prove yourself isn't where you went to school if you're an FMG, but on your board scores (which to be frank, people don't get any prep in except for allowances made to RCSI students) and how you do on your US clinicals.

 

[leorl]

To be perfectly honest, I'd go UK. They're more efficient, maybe Brits aren't the warmest people but at least they're up front about if they're trying to screw you ... Yeah, Dublin is a fun city...that you really find yourself needing to escape from after living here for awhile. The Irish people...yes, they're fun, good laugh, I have really good Irish friends. However, the Irish administration at all levels are deceitful, incompetent and dishonest. They do the best they can, I guess...but it isn't good enough, their framework of doing things isn't good enough. Save yourself some future trouble and stick UK, at least if you don't find yourself being prepared to match in your final year, you'll get into a UK foundation year programme being a UK grad.

 

[zeyad]

Woah, thanks for clearing that up. I'm not the person who was accepted into Birmingham, I was accepted into Hull-York medical school, which was initiated in 2003. Hope that clears it up with regards to me saying trinitys established. A bit surprised about the hospital situation you just mentioned, hmm.. thought they'd be better since they're in a developed capital city.. will look into that again. Thanks! Another question for you leorl, what is the age demographic in trinity medical students? Are they all "mature" students, or do you get students out of high school attending?

 

[zeyad]

To be perfectly honest, I'd go UK. They're more efficient, maybe Brits aren't the warmest people but at least they're up front about if they're trying to screw you ... Yeah, Dublin is a fun city...that you really find yourself needing to escape from after living here for awhile. The Irish people...yes, they're fun, good laugh, I have really good Irish friends. However, the Irish administration at all levels are deceitful, incompetent and dishonest. They do the best they can, I guess...but it isn't good enough, their framework of doing things isn't good enough. Save yourself some future trouble and stick UK, at least if you don't find yourself being prepared to match in your final year, you'll get into a UK foundation year programme being a UK grad.

Interesting opinion. I suppose you're right about UK institutions on the whole, but you may have a slightly dented view. The British institutions aren't always clear cut about things either, and the whole immigration policy reform they're implementing is slightly worrying. Besides, I'm not sure i'll take the risk of attending a relatively new medical school that might not be fully recognized by the educated circles in the U.S. Its still up in the air for me, and I guess i'll wait to hear from all universities before making a decision.

 

[PaddyofNine]

To be perfectly honest, I'd go UK. ...

Yeah, Dublin is a fun city...that you really find yourself needing to escape from after living here for awhile. However, the Irish administration at all levels are deceitful, incompetent and dishonest. They do the best they can, I guess...

Holy crap, Leorl, don't pull any punches anyway! You having a bad run of things?

 

[leorl]

hehe zeyad, I didn't mean to sound like that the Brits were perfect or anything in that regard. I just meant it's probably better than is here.

Paddy, yeah. Let's just say that final year is more stressful than just exams. I never listened to the rumors from previous final years and always thought they were delusional or making things up. Now that I'm final year myself, I realize that what has been said before me is actually somewhat true, especially exacerbated with issues that have arisen this year to make the dishonesty etc etc even more blatant. Anyway, it doesn't affect anything I've said before regarding the education and good times here, but this one year alone has soured our experiences here - there actually aren't many (both foreign and Irish) with anything very positive to say. So in summary, everything's all grand and peachy til you get to final year

 

[zeyad]

...and what is it that happens during final year?

 

[Blitz2006]

Again,

I don't know much about Ireland, as I only visited UK schools in January for my interviews (Hull-York, Nottingham and Birmingham), but I can tell you that those 3 schools facilities are far superior to the meds facilities here in Kingston, Canada where I am studying my BScH in Life Sciences (Queen's University).

My point is, UK schools match up to Canadian meds. Even on rankings, schools like Nottingham/Birmingham are in the top 100 in the world, with the London schools cracking top 20 results.....only 3 Canadian schools crack top 100 (UBC, Univ. of TO and McGill), but with that said, Trinity is also top 50, so Trinity is definitly world class from what I've read and heard.

So it boils down to what you would prefer on a personal level (ie. facilities, reputation of program, city life, etc.).

I guess I picked Birmingham because:

1. Its a huge city, over 2.5 million people, big nightlife
2. Campus is awesome, Facilities are great, large class size which I prefer
3. I get to live in a big city for a low cost of living (much cheaper than London)
4. Its only a 90 min train ride to London
5. It has an international airport, so I can fly direct to Toronto and avoid the London nonsense. Also can travel anyhwere in Europe quite easily.

So as you can see from my reasons, its nothing to do with UK vs. Ireland, its more to do with what you'd prefer personally.

 

[docolive]

hehe zeyad, I didn't mean to sound like that the Brits were perfect or anything in that regard. I just meant it's probably better than is here.

Paddy, yeah. Let's just say that final year is more stressful than just exams. I never listened to the rumors from previous final years and always thought they were delusional or making things up. Now that I'm final year myself, I realize that what has been said before me is actually somewhat true, especially exacerbated with issues that have arisen this year to make the dishonesty etc etc even more blatant. Anyway, it doesn't affect anything I've said before regarding the education and good times here, but this one year alone has soured our experiences here - there actually aren't many (both foreign and Irish) with anything very positive to say. So in summary, everything's all grand and peachy til you get to final year

PM

 

[JediBookworm]

Not to downgrade Trinity or anything, but I believe it's top 50 in Europe, not the world. And these rankings apply to the entire university/college, not just the med school (Times-HES or Shanghai-JTU). THES has one just for medicine in Britain, but based only on admissions standards, not quality of education/training.

 

[zeyad]

Yeah, Jedi is right. Although i'm not a great believer in rankings all together...

 

[Blitz2006]

Jedi is right, its for the univ. as a whole.

And yeah, I'm not saying these rankings should be the end all of your decision. But it should give you an idea of how decent the school is...

The way I look at it, if you're going to a medical school that is ranked #27 as a whole, I doubt the med school is gonna be 'bad', if you know what I mean.

But rankings were just one small factor, my point in that post was that it shouldnt be about UK vs. Ireland, more like how the school fits your interests/personality.

 

[AgentSik007]

Again,

I don't know much about Ireland, as I only visited UK schools in January for my interviews (Hull-York, Nottingham and Birmingham), but I can tell you that those 3 schools facilities are far superior to the meds facilities here in Kingston, Canada where I am studying my BScH in Life Sciences (Queen's University).

My point is, UK schools match up to Canadian meds. Even on rankings, schools like Nottingham/Birmingham are in the top 100 in the world, with the London schools cracking top 20 results.....only 3 Canadian schools crack top 100 (UBC, Univ. of TO and McGill), but with that said, Trinity is also top 50, so Trinity is definitly world class from what I've read and heard.

So it boils down to what you would prefer on a personal level (ie. facilities, reputation of program, city life, etc.).

I guess I picked Birmingham because:

1. Its a huge city, over 2.5 million people, big nightlife
2. Campus is awesome, Facilities are great, large class size which I prefer
3. I get to live in a big city for a low cost of living (much cheaper than London)
4. Its only a 90 min train ride to London
5. It has an international airport, so I can fly direct to Toronto and avoid the London nonsense. Also can travel anyhwere in Europe quite easily.

So as you can see from my reasons, its nothing to do with UK vs. Ireland, its more to do with what you'd prefer personally.

Blitz- Where did you find the international medical school rankings? And is it a WHO based ranking? Thanks!

 

[leorl]

It's not a WHO ranking (WHO doesn't rank). I can't remember where that came from, but there is a ranking where it's ranked against all the universities in the world. It's in the top 200 anyway...like, it's ranked decently enough. But again, it's the whole university with some criteria that don't apply to students (research funding and stuff). I think it might be a London Times ranking. There is no ranking of Irish medical schools anywhere.

 

[Blitz2006]

It's not a WHO ranking (WHO doesn't rank). I can't remember where that came from, but there is a ranking where it's ranked against all the universities in the world. It's in the top 200 anyway...like, it's ranked decently enough. But again, it's the whole university with some criteria that don't apply to students (research funding and stuff). I think it might be a London Times ranking. There is no ranking of Irish medical schools anywhere.

Leorl is right, its The Times Higher Rankings. And yeah, its just for universities as a whole, not medical.

Again, I'm not suggesting these rankings are dead accurate, but I think they give a fairly good idea of what the quality of the institution.

enjoy.

Top 200 in the World:

http://www.paked.net/higher_education/rankings/times_rankings.htm

 

[ceilidh06]

All this talk about trinity! UCD med program is way better - and this is even confirmed by friends at trinity. ucd has finally gotten their act together and re-vamped the program so its more north american style, with more early on hospital experience. plus the mater and st.vincents are the two teaching hospitals - way better than st.james for trinity

 

[zeyad]

You can't really pinpoint which school is "better". Its the whole package.. I'm sure there are people in UCD and Trinity that would also argue that Trinity's med program is better...

 

[ceilidh06]

No actually i know many people from trinity who all agree UCD has a better program. they all hate the trinity program. we had more clinical skills in fourth year than they did in final year. trinity is much more 'do it yourself'. and when people can miss months at a time with no one even noticing or caring - not such a good sign

 

[zeyad]

It depends on what you prefer. I'll say it again, you can't pinpoint one program as "better" than the other. And with Trinity being much more self-directed, I see that as a good thing (develops ability to research and work independantly). But if people aren't showing up, its their fault, not the college's.

 

[alexander323]

I went to med school in Ireland and I've worked in the UK. The simple answer is I prefer the UK over Ireland in most respects. The education system in Ireland is insidious, and the medical education is not nearly as good as they think it is. I'm a US graduate and my undergraduate was much better in both scope and depth -there is no comparison. The British doctors I worked with gave an impression that their system was more rigorous and turned out a better doctor. There are exceptions to this, but I've seen hundreds of examples and I'm only reporting what I've seen.

The bigotry of many of the Irish will shock you. They love you if they know you're leaving and that you won't take your money with you. If you have a BSc, you're still in classes with kids right out of high school who can't string a sentence together. They've successfully played the game and gotten into that school. That is all. You're strengths will be see as a threat and you will find impediments placed in your way.

Here's an item. Neither of these places will give you time off for the USMLEs: however, in my school it was particularly bad for me. I let the department head know I was scheduled for my Step 1 before the end of a clinical rotation about 6 weeks ahead of time. She intentionally scheduled me to have my final exams in that rotation the day before for the clinical skills exam and the day after my Step 1 for the clinical knowledge exam. I asked nicely to have this changed as it was a rotating schedule and had some plasticity to it and this was not anything extraordinary about my request or solution. Of course this was denied. I passed the two rotation exams, but not the Step 1.

I could go on like this for hours and so could all of the North American students I knew in Ireland.

 

[docolive]

I went to med school in Ireland and I've worked in the UK. The simple answer is I prefer the UK over Ireland in most respects. The education system in Ireland is insidious, and the medical education is not nearly as good as they think it is. I'm a US graduate and my undergraduate was much better in both scope and depth -there is no comparison. The British doctors I worked with gave an impression that their system was more rigorous and turned out a better doctor. There are exceptions to this, but I've seen hundreds of examples and I'm only reporting what I've seen.

The bigotry of many of the Irish will shock you. They love you if they know you're leaving and that you won't take your money with you. If you have a BSc, you're still in classes with kids right out of high school who can't string a sentence together. They've successfully played the game and gotten into that school. That is all. You're strengths will be see as a threat and you will find impediments placed in your way.

Here's an item. Neither of these places will give you time off for the USMLEs: however, in my school it was particularly bad for me. I let the department head know I was scheduled for my Step 1 before the end of a clinical rotation about 6 weeks ahead of time. She intentionally scheduled me to have my final exams in that rotation the day before for the clinical skills exam and the day after my Step 1 for the clinical knowledge exam. I asked nicely to have this changed as it was a rotating schedule and had some plasticity to it and this was not anything extraordinary about my request or solution. Of course this was denied. I passed the two rotation exams, but not the Step 1.

I could go on like this for hours and so could all of the North American students I knew in Ireland.

Reality bites. Thank you for your input.

 

[zeyad]

Thank you for your input. I'm really starting to doubt my decision to go to Ireland.. i'm worried i'll regret turning down my offer in the UK. Let me point out though that i'll be an undergrad when i'm in medical school (i'm in high-school now).. Ireland seems to be wonderful in many respects, yet seems to be terrible in others. About being with students straight out of highschool in Ireland, it'll be the same (if not worse) if you went to the UK. Anymore insight would be appreciated! Thanks.

 

[leorl]

as much as i've liked it here, the experience alexander323 has had isnt uncommon. even if situations aren't as bad as his/hers, this is exactly what i mean when I say that if you play by the rules, you can get burned. which is why most of us have lied about when we're doing the usmle and when we're doing electives. The consultants dont give a crap...all they see is that you're not coming in for your rotation. This is one reason why some students do not finish all their requirewments for going back to the US in time.

More later when I'm done with the last exam of this med school hell hole tomorrow . dont get me wrong...its not about being here, but med school anywhere is not peaches and roses.

 

[leorl]

i just have to refute what ceili said. This year's final years at Trinity are particularly bitter for good reason. However, I would still never go to UCD . People are disgruntled with some of the way Trinity handles things, but I definitely would not say that Trinity students all want UCD's curriculum. People offhand may wish that they went to UCD because UCD gives more honors, but if you want to play the bashing game, the Mater is known as being one of the most disorganized teaching hospitals in Dublin. Also, many programs' clinical skills modules are based off the one Trinity started, incorporating tech advances like SimMan. Trinity students consistently win prizes against the other medical schools in medical debate contests, and Trinity Med Day won best Irish society event this year... they're doing something right.

Why would we get clinical skills in final year? We've done it all in fourth year. If someone finds they didn't know something, then they were too lazy in fourth year and didn't learn it. Never mind that we forget it all by final year, but many people arrange refresher sessions. And yeah, we could go missing for months at a time...but a) a good student wouldn't and b) some of have found that extremely helpful for doing rotations at home...

 

[Blitz2006]

I'll pitch in my word.

1. With regards to the highschool kids, yes, British med schools do accept a fair number of highschool kids, but at my interview, many of them were quite mature from what I saw. More importantly, those "A Levels" seem very intense, and some of my friends here in 4th year Undergrad in Canada claim that A Levels are equivalent to 2nd and 3rd year of university level courses. So I don't think highschool kids would be very whiney/"unable to string a sentence" together in med school. I'm not sure what is needed for Irish highschool students, but from what I've heard, the A Levels are quite rigorous.

Also, the system is changing in UK. Many students in med school have a degree. After visiting the schools for my interviews, I was told that about 25-30% already have a degree, so a lot are 'mature'.

The whole Ireland vs. UK thing.

Here's my personal analogy:

UK vs. Ireland = Canada vs. U.S.A

Canada and Ireland will both give you solid M.Ds I think. But based on population base and history, U.S and UK just has a better reputation worldwide, and offers more opporutnities. The reason why I would choose UK over Ireland is that I know that I'm not just constricted to Manchester or Birmingham or Leeds or wherever I go to schoool. I can always do an elective in London, or even work in a lab in Oxford or Cambridge. Whereas with Ireland, from what I've heard there really is only Dublin and Cork. But again, this doesn't mean its bad, just personal preference.

Again, I'll refer to the rankings because it gives somewhat of an idea of my argument, but you look at any Top 100 worldwide rankings (whether its the times or Newsweek) and a large percentage of the list contains UK and U.S universities.

 

[Blitz2006]

Double Post.

 

[alexander323]

I'll pitch in my word.

1. With regards to the highschool kids, yes, British med schools do accept a fair number of highschool kids, but at my interview, many of them were quite mature from what I saw. More importantly, those "A Levels" seem very intense, and some of my friends here in 4th year Undergrad in Canada claim that A Levels are equivalent to 2nd and 3rd year of university level courses. So I don't think highschool kids would be very whiney/"unable to string a sentence" together in med school. I'm not sure what is needed for Irish highschool students, but from what I've heard, the A Levels are quite rigorous.

Also, the system is changing in UK. Many students in med school have a degree. After visiting the schools for my interviews, I was told that about 25-30% already have a degree, so a lot are 'mature'.

The whole Ireland vs. UK thing.

Here's my personal analogy:

UK vs. Ireland = Canada vs. U.S.A

Canada and Ireland will both give you solid M.Ds I think. But based on population base and history, U.S and UK just has a better reputation worldwide, and offers more opporutnities. The reason why I would choose UK over Ireland is that I know that I'm not just constricted to Manchester or Birmingham or Leeds or wherever I go to schoool. I can always do an elective in London, or even work in a lab in Oxford or Cambridge. Whereas with Ireland, from what I've heard there really is only Dublin and Cork. But again, this doesn't mean its bad, just personal preference.

Again, I'll refer to the rankings because it gives somewhat of an idea of my argument, but you look at any Top 100 worldwide rankings (whether its the times or Newsweek) and a large percentage of the list contains UK and U.S universities.

I took a little time to compose my posting and I've said these same things again and again to people for some years now. It was not how powerful an education these Irish kids obtained, but it was how they played the game which was rigged in their favor. Yes, I know from what I saw with my own eyes that far too many of them couldn't sting words together to make a credible sentence -- much less a paragraph. How do I know this? I helped them write their biochemistry reports, and one of my friends corrected these reports for the entire group. The sentences were generally poorly structured, contained spelling errors and grammatical mistakes that border on illiteracy. It was ALWAYS a surprise to see this, yet , these same students were generously scored when it came to assessing final grades for anything. There was some that were excellent and some that were awful. It was just surprising to see that a poor standard in any of these students was considered acceptable.

One time, during the neuroanatomy course, the department made the mistake of posting the names alongside the numerical scores instead of posting the student numbers with the scores. All of the foreign (North American, Australian, Asian, etc.) students barely passed, if they passed. The Irish students were clustered as a group at least one level higher at 2nd class honors or better. I knew these people didn't know any more than the people who were scored lower because I studied with them. The same discrepancy was both observed and confirmed by by faculty in the other subjects. It continued throughout the education there.

 

[Sage880]

I have only finished year three of five here in Cork but I have to disagree with a lot of the stuff here. Yes, the Irish kids are young coming in but they are pretty much geniuses and the cream of the crop Ireland has to offer. I found that people at home were more science nerds where the Irish kids had to excel across the board and get A++ in languages, arts, science, and music. Even though there is a little "playing the game" and "beating the test" They can certainly string sentences together better than I can!

At UCC the marks are all anonymous for the most part and the North Americans who deserve to tend to get very good marks. This year we started having more oral exams and I still got 1H's even though I'm clearly not Irish.

As for the USMLE's, UCC sent a letter to the students saying our scores on this exam were important to them for keeping their level of accreditation and if there was anything they could do for us to help us study then please ask. I went in and asked for some non-trivial things to be done to accommodate me studying and writing the first exam when I wanted to and they were incredibly nice and helpful in the medical school. Sure, even when I wanted to do an elective after first year back home they did whatever they could to help me out even though it's not common or even recommended to do an elective after first year. They actually told me they really didn't want me to but they didn't stand in my way one bit.

I'm not saying that you didn't have the experience that you had but I haven't seen anything like that at all. Some of the final years this year are staying in Ireland and some are going home. Those going home were leaving to write licensing exams and go for residency interviews and they were accommodated. I was told before I came here that there was a bias toward the Irish students in terms of marks and opportunities but I still haven't seen any sign of that at UCC. Maybe my opinion will change after 4th and 5th year though. But so far I've been rewarded for working hard and being proactive and whenever I haven't done well I haven't had anyone else but myself to blame.

 

[med2UCC]

I would support what Sage has said about UCC. I have been here 4 years and have had no problems with being marked down because I am foreign, or any of the other experiences I have seen on this thread. The med school wrote me a very nice letter of recommendation this summer so I could secure funding and I know I am 13th overall in my class- and there are more than 13 Irish kids in my class! Maybe Trinity and UCD are screwed up, but UCC is a great school and they support all their students/ THey don't give us time off to study for USMLE's and such, but they understand that sometimes we have to miss things because of flights and interviews. Last year 2 people I know got their pathology assessments re-scheduled because they couldn't afford to change flight dates (or didn't want to) - the path department bent over backwards to accommodate us. Come here Cheers,
M

 

[pattycanuck]

Have to agree with sage and med2ucc: credit is given where deserved. There were many North Americans who couldn't put two sentences together and there were Irish who could communicate appropriately with any audience at hand (in written and verbal form). Likewise there were non-EUs who were at the top of our class. Remember also this - there were (at least in my time) a lot of North Americans who couldn't get into medical school back home and chances were that they were not as competitive (ie didn't do so hot in undergrad) so headed to Ireland as it was easier to get into medical school there.

As for only one instance in Loughlinstown Hospital (South Dublin - I overheard two obvious North Americans from Surgeons behind a curtain in the Emerg (A&E) - they were trying to interview a patient and they were talking to him like he had a disability. I wasn't sure who the patient was, but my senior took me in to see the same patient afterward and there was no reason for talking down to him as we were having a normal conversation at a normal rate.

Just an example above and nothing else.

 

[pattycanuck]

Here's my personal analogy:

UK vs. Ireland = Canada vs. U.S.A

Canada and Ireland will both give you solid M.Ds I think. But based on population base and history, U.S and UK just has a better reputation worldwide, and offers more opporutnities.

Again, I'll refer to the rankings because it gives somewhat of an idea of my argument, but you look at any Top 100 worldwide rankings (whether its the times or Newsweek) and a large percentage of the list contains UK and U.S universities.

For arguement sake b2006, I ahve to politely disagree with the above. The US does not have a better reputation overall, it may have resources to order more test and give more effective treatment due to the technology and financing, but reputation as individuals who order CT brains for ever patient that comes in with a headache or bump to the head? That my friend is more of a litigation stand point which should not interfere, but alas does, with patient management.

Likewise I have seen many people here on this forum always refer to top 100 this and that ... just because a university (not necessarily its medical school) has a lot of financial backing, library holdings, a few prestigious graduates, does not necessarily commend a school being a "top 100" for our case regarding medical education. What does make a good medical school? I would hope that it involves making someone proficient in the ART and SCIENCE of medicine rather than someone who can follow an algorithm to treat someone. Give me that clinical teaching school any day - you'll know WHY you are doing WHAT you are doing and may even question why algorithms may be right or wrong.

 

[Blitz2006]

For arguement sake b2006, I ahve to politely disagree with the above. The US does not have a better reputation overall, it may have resources to order more test and give more effective treatment due to the technology and financing, but reputation as individuals who order CT brains for ever patient that comes in with a headache or bump to the head? That my friend is more of a litigation stand point which should not interfere, but alas does, with patient management.

Likewise I have seen many people here on this forum always refer to top 100 this and that ... just because a university (not necessarily its medical school) has a lot of financial backing, library holdings, a few prestigious graduates, does not necessarily commend a school being a "top 100" for our case regarding medical education. What does make a good medical school? I would hope that it involves making someone proficient in the ART and SCIENCE of medicine rather than someone who can follow an algorithm to treat someone. Give me that clinical teaching school any day - you'll know WHY you are doing WHAT you are doing and may even question why algorithms may be right or wrong.

PC,

I agree with you. I suppose I didn't choose the right set of words. Perhaps not 'overall reputation', but what I meant to convey was that the U.S and England are home to the world's 'best' medical schools, with regards to reputation (ie. Oxford, Edinburgh, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, etc. ). But yes, I agree, overall Canada or Ireland or wherever may not be inferior to these countries in terms of quality of education.

I guess my point was, if you give a North American applicant a choice of any school in North America and a Western European applicant a choice of any school in Western Europe, I would think that for the most part the applicant would choose a top rated school in U.S and England, respectively.

 

[bananaboat]

I guess my point was, if you give a North American applicant a choice of any school in North America and a Western European applicant a choice of any school in Western Europe, I would think that for the most part the applicant would choose a top rated school in U.S and England, respectively.

uh...i know tonnes of fellow canadians who rather stick around in canada. not only for tuition purposes, but we have some great schools here, as well as ties to our homes/country.

don't forget that each year ppl are accepted to top US schools and are found rejected at places like university of toronto, mcgill etc.

 

[Blitz2006]

uh...i know tonnes of fellow canadians who rather stick around in canada. not only for tuition purposes, but we have some great schools here, as well as ties to our homes/country.

don't forget that each year ppl are accepted to top US schools and are found rejected at places like university of toronto, mcgill etc.

Um, I didnt say it was tougher to get into top U.S schools...I said ppl would choose them over Canadian schools.....my housemate received an interview from Mac, but didnt even get an interview from any other Canadian school (due to his MCAT Verbal score), yet he got interviews in Duke and Vanderbilt. He said he would take those two schools over any Canadian school any day...

Obviously, he doesn't represent the entire Canadian pre-med population. But I know for a fact, that you give a pre med at my school, Ivy League meds or TO/McGill meds, most (perhaps not all), will take the Ivy League school.

But yes, I agree with you on the cost factor. I suppose if cost is that pressing of an issue for the student, they will take the Canadian school.

I myself turned down a Wayne State interview, because it was far more costly than me going to Birmingham, England.

 

[George85]

How does a US/Canadian citizen apply to UK schools? Do they have a quote for foreign students? I know that UK citizens must apply through UCAS and only hold a single offer. How do foreign applicants hold more than one offer?