Ireland vs SGU

[MDaspiration2020]

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Hey guys,

I'm a fourth year Canadian UG student. Given my stats, would I be competitive enough to apply to Ireland or SGU ? :
- cGPA: 3.5
-MCAT: 498 (124/122/127/125)- CARS was brutal 🙁
- Shadowing a doctor, Research, tons of hospital volunteering, vice president of 3 clubs, coaching, tutoring, lifeguarding, involved in sports.

I was leaning more towards SGU because
- they have good match rates
- great rotations in the US and in Canada (in both 3 and 4 year, while irish med school students are only allowed to arrange rotations in north america during their 4th year)

I would appreciate if anyone could comment or add their input !

 

[torontopharm]

There's an apparent visa issue with us Canadians now. I'd look into "changes in J1 Visa/Statement of need issued requirements" before going abroad. If i understand it correctly, government put a cap on # of visa issued to do residency in the states i.e. you can finish your 4 years abroad and might not get the appropriate visa to do your residency in the states.

With that in mind, as a Canadian, i'd pick an Irish school over SGU because Irish/Australian schools tend to have the highest % IMG matched through CaRMS.

Or you can just do the safer thing and re-take the MCAT, apply DO 🙂

 

[MDaspiration2020]

There's an apparent visa issue with us Canadians now. I'd look into "changes in J1 Visa/Statement of need issued requirements" before going abroad. If i understand it correctly, government put a cap on # of visa issued to do residency in the states i.e. you can finish your 4 years abroad and might not get the appropriate visa to do your residency in the states.

With that in mind, as a Canadian, i'd pick an Irish school over SGU because Irish/Australian schools tend to have the highest % IMG matched through CaRMS.

Or you can just do the safer thing and re-take the MCAT, apply DO 🙂

Do you think my stats are competitive for a 4yr MD program in Ireland ?

 

[mcat_taker]

MCAT scores seem a little low for SGU, but I think you have a shot because your GPA is pretty good and might offset it. They might just put you in foundations or charters program. I would call them and ask them what they are looking for on the new MCAT.

 

[Crayola227]

The Carrib reeks of nasty. I'd be an IMG almost anywhere but there, but med school in another language than native could set you up for bad grades and step score. Go US DO, UK, and Carrib last resort.

 

[meliora27]

MCAT scores seem a little low for SGU, but I think you have a shot because your GPA is pretty good and might offset it. They might just put you in foundations or charters program. I would call them and ask them what they are looking for on the new MCAT.

Has anyone every actually been rejected from a Carib school? I'm sure they can find some way, or special program to take your money...

Seriously though, I've actually never heard of anyone being rejected from the Caribbean.

 

[mcat_taker]

Has anyone every actually been rejected from a Carib school? I'm sure they can find some way, or special program to take your money...

Seriously though, I've actually never heard of anyone being rejected from the Caribbean.

People get rejected from the big 4 Caribbean schools. That's why SGU's published stats are like a 26 average MCAT and 3.4 GPA.

The problem is that those schools get lumped into with all Caribbean schools and there's a lot of diploma mills out there so you need to separate them.

You haven't heard of people getting rejected from a Caribbean school because who would want to admit they were rejected from a Caribbean school? That might be one reason.

 

[gyngyn]

A re-applicant at our school included details of his acceptance at St. George's in this year's application. He had an 18. That's about a 489.

 

[Goro]

Breathing?
Can write a tuition check?

If yes both, then you're fine for SGU or any other Carib diploma mill.

You like the idea of being unemployed and deeply in debt?

Hey guys,

I'm a fourth year Canadian UG student. Given my stats, would I be competitive enough to apply to Ireland or SGU ? :
- cGPA: 3.5
-MCAT: 498 (124/122/127/125)- CARS was brutal 🙁
- Shadowing a doctor, Research, tons of hospital volunteering, vice president of 3 clubs, coaching, tutoring, lifeguarding, involved in sports.

I was leaning more towards SGU because
- they have good match rates
- great rotations in the US and in Canada (in both 3 and 4 year, while irish med school students are only allowed to arrange rotations in north america during their 4th year)

I would appreciate if anyone could comment or add their input !

 

[Crayola227]

My questions would be are there more applicants for Carrib than slots... surely the school can only be so big. Maybe what narrows the app pool is that you are only qualified if you can get private loan or pay out of pocket? Those schools aren't free and I don't know if Fed student aid is available

 

[mcat_taker]

Breathing?
Can write a tuition check?

If yes both, then you're fine for SGU or any other Carib diploma mill.

You like the idea of being unemployed and deeply in debt?

You want to tell my friend who graduated SGU and is an anesthesiology resident that he's unemployed? Or other SGU kids I know rotating at Hackensack medical center (A major 900 bed teaching hospital) that they will be unemployed? Or the SGU neurology attendings I met that they are unemployed? Every SGU kid I know is very capable. My NYCOM friend told me he had more SGU kids rotating with him than NYCOM kids, but they're all gonna be unemployed right.

 

[Goro]

Tell that the the 75% of SGU matriculates who flunked out, or who failed to ever match and for those who did, only could make it into preliminary (dead-end) residencies. Tell it to them.

If SGU were an an LCME accredited school, it would shut down.


A little light reading material for you:
https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/it-doesnt-get-better/

You want to tell my friend who graduated SGU and is an anesthesiology resident that he's unemployed? Or other SGU kids I know rotating at Hackensack medical center (A major 900 bed teaching hospital) that they will be unemployed? Or the SGU neurology attendings I met that they are unemployed? Every SGU kid I know is very capable. My NYCOM friend told me he had more SGU kids rotating with him than NYCOM kids, but they're all gonna be unemployed right.

 

[Crayola227]

Wow, @Goro

Thanks for the article.

Kids, the most important part of becoming a doctor is not being accepted to medical school. It's completing a residency. That should be your number 1 goal even as the preschooler who when asked "what do you want to be when you grow up" says a doctor.

And DO NOT buy any bull**** that med degree has value without board certification. Just don't. Those are special cases and they work hard to not put their hands on anyone ever again clinically.

Unless your dream is to be financially ruined and unemployable, keep working in life to have a great job that isn't medicine, while doing stuff to try to open up being an AMG. Or be willing to leave the US and never come back again, by going abroad. Even then, don't go Carribean.

and don't even become an AMG. There's other jobs where you can help people, enjoy life, make a living. Doing all 3 as a doc is becoming more and more impossible.

Don't go Carribean. Don't. I don't care how many success examples you have, don't. For every one of those success stories, what Goro posted, even if that were only 1/6, think twice. You wouldn't play Russian roulette with your life with those odds, why would you do that to your entire financial future? Get some other degree and make $50K with little student loan.

Dreams are overrated when you're living in a Rubbermaid plastic shed.

 

[mcat_taker]

Tell that the the 75% of SGU matriculates who flunked out, or who failed to ever match and for those who did, only could make it into preliminary (dead-end) residencies. Tell it to them.

If SGU were an an LCME accredited school, it would shut down.


A little light reading material for you:
https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/it-doesnt-get-better/

Yes we've all read that blog. It's also pretty obvious that guy was an idiot for putting all his eggs in one basket to try and only get an ortho residency. If he had set more realistic goals it would be a non issue and he wouldn't be so bitter. It's like going to a no name state school and only applying to jobs at McKinsey and Bain and then getting upset that they are only hiring Ivy League grads and blogging about how unfair life is.

I would like to see where you get this 75 percent number from. I can only speak from anecdote but every person I know who went to SGU is doing fine.

 

[Crayola227]

I had your same thought but given all the other negative **** he had to say about the process that had nothing to do with specialty intent, like the basic quality of teachers, didactic, clincal exposure, rotations, and what he was told on the trail *FOR IM* on how his training was perceived, again, I worry not only about these grads matching prospects, but education quality. How well prepared you are for residency from your medical school actually matters. Using FA as your main textbook is not going to cut it, even if you get a good board score.

I know people from very fine US med schools, with very fine board scores, who got ****** exposure in the clinical years, and they're making up the difference intern year.

No bull**** it gets harder and harder as you go. You should be worried both how you will be educated and how that education is perceived and how that plays out as you grow as a resident. Because you can get totally ****ed anywhere before the finish line.

Getting an MD and matching is not the end game. Gaining enough to be a quality attending is. And not even residency and board cert can assure that. Some newly minted attendings are crossing their fingers that luck holds out to not have a career ending error before they gain enough experience to make up for a lack of training and avoid them.

A doc has to care about their own training on a personal and environmental level, and if one cares so little to a priori attend a school where you don't even see patients, I have to wonder if that doc is just good at looking good enough.

 

[mcat_taker]

I had your same thought but given all the other negative **** he had to say about the process that had nothing to do with specialty intent, like the basic quality of teachers, didactic, clincal exposure, rotations, and what he was told on the trail *FOR IM* on how his training was perceived, again, I worry not only about these grads matching prospects, but education quality. How well prepared you are for residency from your medical school actually matters. Using FA as your main textbook is not going to cut it, even if you get a good board score.

I know people from very fine US med schools, with very fine board scores, who got ****** exposure in the clinical years, and they're making up the difference intern year.

No bull**** it gets harder and harder as you go. You should be worried both how you will be educated and how that education is perceived and how that plays out as you grow as a resident. Because you can get totally ****ed anywhere before the finish line.

Getting an MD and matching is not the end game. Gaining enough to be a quality attending is. And not even residency and board cert can assure that. Some newly minted attendings are crossing their fingers that luck holds out to not have a career ending error before they gain enough experience to make up for a lack of training and avoid them.

A doc has to care about their own training on a personal and environmental level, and if one cares so little to a priori attend a school where you don't even see patients, I have to wonder if that doc is just good at looking good enough.

I understand that it is good to have as much information out there as possible. This guy obviously had a very negative experience. That being said, what he experienced is not what my friends who attended SGU experienced (people at every stage: on island, clerkships, residency, attendings), who also recommend the school as a good option, provided you don't have unrealistic expectations, so I have a hard time reconciling his points. There are IMG friendly states/cities out there that are very familiar with these schools and the product they produce, and who have a long history of taking their students.

 

[Goro]

Please do not engage in the sin of solipsism. I know a lotto winner; should we all run out and buy tickets instead of investing in 401ks?

You can find this data (the 75% failure rate) both in NRMP and from the testimony of numerous SDNers in this particular forum. Even Skip mentions this.

Yes we've all read that blog. It's also pretty obvious that guy was an idiot for putting all his eggs in one basket to try and only get an ortho residency. If he had set more realistic goals it would be a non issue and he wouldn't be so bitter. It's like going to a no name state school and only applying to jobs at McKinsey and Bain and then getting upset that they are only hiring Ivy League grads and blogging about how unfair life is.

I would like to see where you get this 75 percent number from. I can only speak from anecdote but every person I know who went to SGU is doing fine.

 

[leafs91]

Goro your IQ must truly be low. The failure rate at SGU is approximately 10%. Additionally, the SGU match rate in the States is among the highest, and if not the highest of any international school (>75%). Please enlighten us by showing us reputable source which supports these numbers which you are throwing out there.

 

[deleted158872]

The Carrib reeks of nasty. I'd be an IMG almost anywhere but there, but med school in another language than native could set you up for bad grades and step score. Go US DO, UK, and Carrib last resort.

This.

 

[gyngyn]

Goro your IQ must truly be low. The failure rate at SGU is approximately 10%. Additionally, the SGU match rate in the States is among the highest, and if not the highest of any international school (>75%). Please enlighten us by showing us reputable source which supports these numbers which you are throwing out there.

According to the SGU website there are 5560 enrollees in the MD program. They don't tell us how many start. http://www.sgu.edu/about-sgu/medical-students-enrollment.html.
According to the NRMP there were 792 applicants from Grenada, http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf (see chart 15).
Since we have no attrition data (and presuming similar rates of attrition as a US medical school), one should see a senior class of at least 5500/4 or 1375. Instead, only 792 attempted an NRMP match in 2013. What happened to the other 583+?

We can see that only 534/792 matched. Even if some of the others got surg prelims (that will not allow them to become licensed in most states), one must presume that failure (defined as USMLE failure, failure to be allowed to even sit for the test, or some other form of failure to progress) must have occurred.

 

[Medstart108]

According to the SGU website there are 5560 enrollees in the MD program http://www.sgu.edu/about-sgu/medical-students-enrollment.html.
According to the NRMP there were 792 applicants from Grenada, http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf (see chart 15).
Since we have no attrition data (and presuming similar rates of attrition as a US medical school), one should see a senior class of at least 5500/4 or 1375. Instead, only 792 attempted an NRMP match in 2013. What happened to the other 583?

We can see that only 534/792 matched. Even if some of the others got surg prelims (that will not allow them to become licensed in most states), one must presume that failure (defined as USMLE failure, failure to be allowed to even sit for the test, or some other form of failure to progress) must have occurred.

Like you said, the entering class is almost certainly higher than 1375. In reality at best less than 40% matched, but the reality is that the number is likely lower and this is at a school like SGU.

If you compare this to Ireland, about 60-70% match and there is very little attrition.

 

[Crayola227]

Right, and when you say Ireland it's a 60-70% match, I'm assuming the grads there can stay there?

That would be better than unemployed for sure.

 

[Mad Jack]

There's an apparent visa issue with us Canadians now. I'd look into "changes in J1 Visa/Statement of need issued requirements" before going abroad. If i understand it correctly, government put a cap on # of visa issued to do residency in the states i.e. you can finish your 4 years abroad and might not get the appropriate visa to do your residency in the states.

With that in mind, as a Canadian, i'd pick an Irish school over SGU because Irish/Australian schools tend to have the highest % IMG matched through CaRMS.

Or you can just do the safer thing and re-take the MCAT, apply DO 🙂

There's virtually unlimited visas if you're interested in primary care and certain other high-need fields. But for some competitive fields, there's less than a handful a year, and they are given out on a first-come first-serve basis.

 

[Mad Jack]

Right, and when you say Ireland it's a 60-70% match, I'm assuming the grads there can stay there?

That would be better than unemployed for sure.

Having a degree from Ireland has the advantage of EU reciprocal recognition, but that recognition is useless if you don't have EU permanent residency, as EU residents get first pick of training spots in most countries. There are some countries where you might fare better by merely knowing the language (such as the Scandinavian countries) but so many people speak English in the EU that the training systems of the English speaking countries are flooded by applicants from Eastern Europe. This isn't to say it's impossible to train there as an Irish grad, but that it's an uphill fight.

http://www.atlanticbridge.com/medicine/residency/world/

 

[Medstart108]

Right, and when you say Ireland it's a 60-70% match, I'm assuming the grads there can stay there?

That would be better than unemployed for sure.

Not really, I believe its 60-70% match to Canada or the US which depends on citizenship obviously. I think US citizens will match at a higher rate than Canadians, but the 60-70% match data is mostly from Canadian students.

I have heard Irish internships were harder to get this year. Generally, I wouldn't expect to be able to stay in Ireland if you aren't an EU citizen.

 

[the argus]

Please do not engage in the sin of solipsism. I know a lotto winner; should we all run out and buy tickets instead of investing in 401ks?

You can find this data (the 75% failure rate) both in NRMP and from the testimony of numerous SDNers in this particular forum. Even Skip mentions this.

translation: I have absolutely no real data to back up this ridiculous claim

I'd love for you to explicitly show where in any NRMP document it mentions a 75% failure rate for Caribbean matriculants. Please be very specific, as my feeble Caribbean educated brain gets confused very easily.

 

[the argus]

According to the SGU website there are 5560 enrollees in the MD program. They don't tell us how many start. http://www.sgu.edu/about-sgu/medical-students-enrollment.html.
According to the NRMP there were 792 applicants from Grenada, http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf (see chart 15).
Since we have no attrition data (and presuming similar rates of attrition as a US medical school), one should see a senior class of at least 5500/4 or 1375. Instead, only 792 attempted an NRMP match in 2013. What happened to the other 583+?

We can see that only 534/792 matched. Even if some of the others got surg prelims (that will not allow them to become licensed in most states), one must presume that failure (defined as USMLE failure, failure to be allowed to even sit for the test, or some other form of failure to progress) must have occurred.

So many problems with your reasoning here, it's almost difficult to know where to begin. I'll try,

1. The website actually says 5307 enrollees in the MD program, 5560 is total enrollees including MPH, etc. While not a huge difference, is does exemplify your inability, or more likely indifference, to accurately interpret a simple numerical table.

2. The NRMP document you are referencing clearly states that, "For purposes of this report, match success is defined as a match to the specialty of the applicant’s first-ranked program because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice." Your whole notion that "only 534/792 matched" is actually completely false and a gross misinterpretation of what that data actually represents. This again shows your inability (or indifference) to accurately interpret simple data reports.

3. As I have pointed out ad nauseam, the average time since graduation for the unmatched cohort of USIMGs is 5.7 years. These are not recent graduates, but the small subset (~5-10%) of people who manage to graduate from the Caribbean but have major red flags and are unable to ever match. Your notion that there is a large number of first-time SGU graduates who fail to match is just plain false. The first time match rate for Ross/SGU is 80-90%.

4. Using matriculation data from 2015 and match data from 2013 really isn't OK when trying to say how many people failed out. You have no idea what SGU's matriculation numbers were in 2009 (would have matched in 2013).

5. "and presuming similar rates of attrition as a US medical school." This is also a very terrible presumption. Attrition rates for SGU/Ross are much higher than US schools. While not published, I know for my year at Ross it was ~25%.

 

[gyngyn]

1. The only reason I used enrollees is that they don't give data for entering class size. Enrollees in a combined program that has been in existence at least 5 years should still be coming out the other end at the same rate that they are admitted.
2. That's why I included the umatched in the program of second choice for all unmatched applicants (US or not) surg pre-lim.
3. I have no validated way to know if this is true.
4./5. I have no way to validate this either, sadly. Students who have gone to SGU tell me their attrition is much higher than 25%.

 

[the argus]

1. The only reason I used enrollees is that they don't give data for entering class size.
2. That's why I included the umatched in the program of second choice for all unmatched applicants (US or not) surg pre-lim.
3. I have no validated way to know if this is true.
4./5. I have no way to validate this either, sadly. Students who have gone to SGU tell me their attrition is much higher than 25%.

1. That's fine, but the document clearly outlines MD program enrollment vs total SOM enrollment. You used the wrong number.
2. Surgical prelim is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about the person who gets 1 or 2 EM interviews, but ends up in IM.
3. This number is directly from the NRMP document you linked to.
4/5. You always say how your program doesn't interview Caribbean grads, so I wonder how many SGU students you actually interact with. I can tell you for sure, the ones I know don't say the attrition rate is >25%.

 

[gyngyn]

1. That's fine, but the document clearly outlines MD program enrollment vs total SOM enrollment. You used the wrong number.
2. Surgical prelim is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about the person who gets 1 or 2 EM interviews, but ends up in IM.
3. This number is directly from the NRMP document you linked to.
4/5. You always say how your program doesn't interview Caribbean grads, so I wonder how many SGU students you actually interact with. I can tell you for sure, the ones I know don't say the attrition rate is >25%.

1. At a steady state, enrollment in combined programs should still predict graduation.
2. You don't know that. There are far fewer categorical IM programs available in the SOAP than surg prelim.
3. There are no validated mariculation stats for SGU. That's why I had to estimate.
4. I have undergrads and graduate students who also don't take my advice! This is how I have learned so much about what motivates those who choose this path.

 

[the argus]

2. You don't know that. There are far fewer categorical IM programs available in the SOAP that surg prelim.

Again, we are not talking about the SOAP here. We are talking about people who have EM programs ranked 1-2 on their list, then IM/FM programs 3-10, and who end up in an IM program. In the NRMP document, these people are counted as unmatched. This has nothing to do with the SOAP.

I really don't understand why you guys insist on making the Caribbean prospects worse than they really are. They are already not great, so you shouldn't have to lie about it. The advice always is to exhaust all US options before considering the Caribbean. But if you are at that point, it is helpful to actually have some accurate data. You guys seem intent on making that impossible, and I don't really understand why.

 

[gyngyn]

Again, we are not talking about the SOAP here. We are talking about people who have EM programs ranked 1-2 on their list, then IM/FM programs 3-10, and who end up in an IM program. In the NRMP document, these people are counted as unmatched. This has nothing to do with the SOAP.

And again, you don't know that they didn't get passed over for the categoricals in the middle of their list and end up with the surg pre lim at the bottom (as these programs often don't even interview (or fill).

 

[the argus]

And again, you don't know that they didn't get passed over for the categoricals in the middle of their list and end up with the surg pre lim at the bottom (as these programs often don't even interview (or fill).

And you don't know either, so you probably shouldn't just say "other's got surgical prelims." I know multiple people who didn't match into their top ranked specialty but still got categorical positions in other specialties. These people would be "unmatched" in the NRMP reports

 

[gyngyn]

And you don't know either, so you probably shouldn't just say "other's got surgical prelims." I know multiple people who didn't match into their top ranked specialty but still got categorical positions in other specialties. These people would be "unmatched" in the NRMP reports

If these schools would actually give us acceptance, matriculation, graduation and match outcomes we wouldn't have to fill in the blanks with the only verifiable data available to us. "You know multiple people" is not data. I know multiple people too. People who finished at one of the "big 4" and are attending PA school to attempt to pay back their debt after not matching several times. I know people who are teaching MCAT prep courses years after completing their SGU degree. I know people who are still "research fellows" who will never match. People considering theses places need data to make an informed decision. Even with our best estimates the outcomes here indicate that thousands of matriculants have been left in very bad shape. 2023 can't come soon enough.

 

[Mad Jack]

So many problems with your reasoning here, it's almost difficult to know where to begin. I'll try,

1. The website actually says 5307 enrollees in the MD program, 5560 is total enrollees including MPH, etc. While not a huge difference, is does exemplify your inability, or more likely indifference, to accurately interpret a simple numerical table.

2. The NRMP document you are referencing clearly states that, "For purposes of this report, match success is defined as a match to the specialty of the applicant’s first-ranked program because that is assumed to be the specialty of choice." Your whole notion that "only 534/792 matched" is actually completely false and a gross misinterpretation of what that data actually represents. This again shows your inability (or indifference) to accurately interpret simple data reports.

3. As I have pointed out ad nauseam, the average time since graduation for the unmatched cohort of USIMGs is 5.7 years. These are not recent graduates, but the small subset (~5-10%) of people who manage to graduate from the Caribbean but have major red flags and are unable to ever match. Your notion that there is a large number of first-time SGU graduates who fail to match is just plain false. The first time match rate for Ross/SGU is 80-90%.

4. Using matriculation data from 2015 and match data from 2013 really isn't OK when trying to say how many people failed out. You have no idea what SGU's matriculation numbers were in 2009 (would have matched in 2013).

5. "and presuming similar rates of attrition as a US medical school." This is also a very terrible presumption. Attrition rates for SGU/Ross are much higher than US schools. While not published, I know for my year at Ross it was ~25%.

Maybe if Ross and SGU sere more transparent in their match and dropout rates, we wouldn't have to have this discussion 😉

 

[Crayola227]

You're saying "it's already not great why make it sound worse"

Unless your parents just have money to throw away, I would say throwing that much money away on multiple multiple USMDDO app cycles only to blow the money to go somewhere and blow a bunch of money, like, a lot, maybe like the house from the Kansas twister fell on you kind of debt, to end up either "overqualified" with an MD that actually you can do exactly dick with 10-20% of the time, or else just have a 4 year gap in employment of education history for your employment app to Best Buy, my sweet Lord man, to risk total destitution, the sort of thing that makes unmatched AMGs and dismissed residents jump off buildings over,

I mean, you're saying that wasting the best years of your life, financially ruined with no applicable education,

that TEN TO TWENTY PERCENT of time, well, gosh, we're just making it sound worse than it is. You're right, we don't have to MAKE it sound worse.

Tell me, how do you feel about Russian roulette with one versus two versus three bullets? Because those are the odds we're debating.

It doesn't ****ing matter if you're right, not matching 10-20% of the time after going Carrib especially taking the path you suggest, sounds like the stupidest life decision I've ever heard of. No really.

It's not worth that level of risk to be an IMG, to be an MD. Just no. Why ruin your life with those odds?

Do yourself a favor, and don't waste your life. There are other jobs. Ones that will make you employed, and might even make a good living and be happy.
People think the most important thing in life is to chase your dreams.

 

[the argus]

If these schools would actually give us acceptance, matriculation, graduation and match outcomes we wouldn't have to fill in the blanks with the only verifiable data available to us. People considering them could make their decision fully informed. Even with our best estimates the outcomes here indicate that thousands of matriculants have been left in very bad shape.

Maybe if Ross and SGU sere more transparent in their match and dropout rates, we wouldn't have to have this discussion 😉

I agree 100%. This is why I spend my time here trying to put that data together as accurately as possible.

The problem with you guys is you consistently misrepresent the data that is available, or just completely make stuff up.

 

[gyngyn]

The problem with you guys is you consistently misrepresent the data that is available, or just completely make stuff up.

I have no reason to do so. Neither the medical school I serve nor the program at which I work has any overlap with these applicants. If the Caribbean schools' data were available, nobody would be arguing over the interpretation of intermediate end points!
I am still a member of the community that has allowed these places to take advantage of the gullible. That is why I have to use proxy data as best I can. The obfuscation of outcomes perpetrated by offshore schools harms innocents (as well as others).

 

[Crayola227]

The real issue is students not understanding what a devastating death blow a 10-20% non match rate is.

They see 80-90% and think that's good.

Classic issue with statistics and cognitive bias.

 

[mcat_taker]

The real issue is students not understanding what a devastating death blow a 10-20% non match rate is.

They see 80-90% and think that's good.

Classic issue with statistics and cognitive bias.

Why don't you just let the students who actually attended these schools speak as to whether it is or isn't "a devastating death blow". Wouldn't they be the most likely to give an accurate assessment? Are you going to be the one employing them? Did you experience what they experienced? No. So how can you speak as to whether its a good idea to attend or not. I can see why program directors should weigh in, but otherwise a kid in residency who didn't attend the school doesn't seem to really offer anything constructive.

 

[Crayola227]

I WILL ONLY SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME YOU ****************S

It's called I have classmates from a very well regarded medical school in the ****ing US of A that were way smart and hard working, and when things didn't go right for their career, ie didn't match, didn't match well, or had to try for a different program, (all of them mostly due to family/medical problems and understandable, but there is always someone to take your place) IT IS VERY UGLY AND SOME NEVER GET TO PRACTICE CLINICAL MEDICINE EVER AGAIN DESPITE BEST EFFORTS.

Please, tell me, how many people with US MDs and matching issues do you know? I know at least 5 personally from my own class. Two students I know a year behind me, and another after that. There was an IMG dismissal and suicide in the news reported on the board in the last year. One other thread of match despair I read yesterday. 2 others I can think of from SDN in the last month. 4 IMG colleagues of mine IRL that were research faculty at well regarded US schools for years before they got a chance at residency just because some AMGs got too sick to finish categorical intern years and they had majorly impressive post grad apps and not from the Carribean and their fellow faculty pulled the strings, these were MDs that had another path and had to accept they would never get a chance and another caeer but for serendipity 3-5 years later. Those positions never got posted they just got filled. Another very good grad from my school a year ahead that was AOA and a tutor and was unlucky in match and years later stuck in research no matter what they've tried. Another one that took time off mid med school due to physical injury, in terms of yrs enrolled the ERAS will see a red flag, let's see how the match goes.

Just accept that if you don't match you had better be prepared to hang up that steth and get another degree, or do research, and it will be be uphill with tears and with a lot of debt.

Turns out residents and attendings know a helluva a lot more about life on the other side of that ****ing piece of paper called a medical diploma no matter where it comes from than anyone without it.

Knowing what I know from first hand experience, if I went back to do it over and you tried to force me to attend even a US medical school set in paradise but with an 80-90% match rate based on statistics they WON'T provide, I would burn that insitution to the ground instead. Seeing what happened firsthand to peers you couldn't get me to accept anything less than a 97% match rate, and match day that's still enough to make you wanna piss your pants.

Before you say "well you just went to some **** school" let me remind you, having even up to 5 unlucky kids, it was a 97% match success rate. Go to a school where the only reason there's ises in the match is cancer or a set of twin babies, not YOUR ****ING DIPLOMA.

The most important thing to know about a medical school is their step 1 pass rate and match rate. You must do both with success or WILL NOT BE A DOCTOR IN THESE UNITED STATES.

M'KAY?

Please google "not matching residency kiss of death."

Or cling to some imaginary idea that if you get an MD you've got the golden ticket.

Smh.

 

[Mad Jack]

Why don't you just let the students who actually attended these schools speak as to whether it is or isn't "a devastating death blow". Wouldn't they be the most likely to give an accurate assessment? Are you going to be the one employing them? Did you experience what they experienced? No. So how can you speak as to whether its a good idea to attend or not. I can see why program directors should weigh in, but otherwise a kid in residency who didn't attend the school doesn't seem to really offer anything constructive.

Because those people that attend these institutions and succeed are extremely biased toward them, while those that attend and fail are extremely biased against them. We've got no bias- I honestly just want people to not end up with piles of debt they can never pay back care of not matching. If 20% of SGU's class doesn't match, that's 140-160 people that are driving cabs for the rest of their lives with 400k+ in non-dischargeable debt. That's an entire US medical school class worth of ruined lives. I think that's pretty unacceptable myself.

 

[Goro]

They have spoken; they're all over these forums with posts like "I failed out of SGU (or other Carib diploma mill)...what do I do now?" or "Failed to match! What do I do now?"

Why don't you just let the students who actually attended these schools speak as to whether it is or isn't "a devastating death blow". Wouldn't they be the most likely to give an accurate assessment? Are you going to be the one employing them? Did you experience what they experienced? No. So how can you speak as to whether its a good idea to attend or not. I can see why program directors should weigh in, but otherwise a kid in residency who didn't attend the school doesn't seem to really offer anything constructive.

 

[Mad Jack]

http://thescurlockscene.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-match-soap-reality-of-being-img.html

^Even when things are good for an IMG, they're often not that good. This guy was a hair's distance ahead of ending up unmatched, but lucked out in the end. A good example of a near best-case scenario.

http://notadoctorjustamd.blogspot.c...howComment=1427172072515#c3535627127933567282

^What happens to those that don't match.

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Ross-...rsity-School-of-Medicine-with-over-40-1093042

^Comprehensive analysis of what is wrong with Ross

 

[deleted716403]

http://notadoctorjustamd.blogspot.c...howComment=1427172072515#c3535627127933567282

^What happens to those that don't match.

She's a US MD grad, passed the Steps, wants FM in underserved area. Baffling that she failed to match.

 

[Mad Jack]

She's a US grad, passed the Steps, wants FM in underserved area. Baffling that she failed to match.

That's kind of the point though- if she was going for the least competitive specialty possible out of a US school and didn't match, imagine what your life could end up like if you want something more competitive, or are an IMG.

 

[deleted716403]

She mentioned having “hyperkinetic disorder” but I wonder if anything else is wrong with her application

 

[torontopharm]

There's virtually unlimited visas if you're interested in primary care and certain other high-need fields. But for some competitive fields, there's less than a handful a year, and they are given out on a first-come first-serve basis.

I think they changed this recently though. The changes will be in effect starting next year.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/hhr-rhs/postgrad-postdoc/cat_b-list-liste-eng.php

Starting next year, even for FM, Canada will now issue out only ~295 J1 visa's.

 

[Mad Jack]

I think they changed this recently though. The changes will be in effect starting next year.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/hhr-rhs/postgrad-postdoc/cat_b-list-liste-eng.php

Starting next year, even for FM, Canada will now issue out only ~295 J1 visa's.

Are there even that many that apply? That seems like a lot.

 

[torontopharm]

Are there even that many that apply? That seems like a lot.

That's a good question actually, which i have no answer to. If i had to guess though, i'd assume ~295 isn't enough, considering that Canada has one of the most students studying abroad in the world. ~80% students at Saba/MUA are Canadians. Premed101 and reddit threads has posters saying ~1000 Canadian IMG's applied for US FM residencies last year, but i'm not sure where to find actual statistics on this.

All of this only applies to J1 Visa though. If you're able to get the H1B visa then you're good...but that's even harder to get because of the cost associated with it. In any case, things are now more complicated for Canadian IMG's than it used to be.