Is Anyone Actually Satisfied?

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You're right, 35K doctors won't disappear, but their employment/work potential will do just that.....disappear. All of the changes taking place will lead to fewer ODs needed and wanted, all the while doubling the number of practicing optometrists. You don't have to be Richard Feynman to do the math on this one. Where will they all go?? The same place they're going now - the nearest big box retailer.

Bye, private practice optometry, it was nice knowing you.

Taking it a step further- what does industry do when there is a big surplus of products flooding the market? They reduce the price (A home computer used to cost $5,000--that's what I paid for a pitiful Hewlett Packard computer in 1995).

The same concept works for professions/jobs. There are many people willing to work at McDonalds for minumum wage so there is no reason the company should pay them more.

WIth thousands of ODs looking for work, income will surely drop. Why? Because they can!

First it will be $70,000. Then $50,000. Then a new hungry OD will graduate and offer to take your phoropter space for $35,000. Then another comes along and offers to do it for $25,000. Hey, $25,000 is still better than being jobless or about the same as babysitting a bunch of 1st graders as a teacher. Flipping the dials is much easier than being a teacher. Of course, most teachers aren't paying back $200,000 in school loans.

This is how it's going to work. This is how it's already working. Average income, as posted in a survey a while ago from Optometric Management or Review of Optometry clearly showed income was on a downward slope.

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You're right, 35K doctors won't disappear, but their employment/work potential will do just that.....disappear. All of the changes taking place will lead to fewer ODs needed and wanted, all the while doubling the number of practicing optometrists. You don't have to be Richard Feynman to do the math on this one. Where will they all go?? The same place they're going now - the nearest big box retailer.

Bye, private practice optometry, it was nice knowing you.

Can someone tell me why employment will disappear? There will no longer be any demand for optometric services? or opticians simply take over all the optical part and ophthalmologists take over all the pathology part.:eek:
 
You seem to have more of an interest in business than healthcare. Don't go into healthcare just because you're hoping for some job security, that quality is completely opposite of a business person.

There are options if you wish to get into healthcare related business. You can look into managing an optical store, and gain enough experience to open one yourself and employ an independent contractor OD to work there. (Some states have different laws on employing ODs). You don't have to be an OD to own an optical store, where people can come in for an eye exam. If you are not confident in your business/management skills, you can look into getting an MBA, or you can just read up on business books.

If you're interested in real estate, most states require you to take a course and pass a test, it takes only a few months and costs a whole lot less money. I know Kaplan offers real estate schools in Colorado.

Do what your heart desires, don't complicate things and go on a huge roundabout to get to your original career/life goals. If business is your main passion, go for it, don't hesitate. Don't mope around school, avoiding real world, accumulate debt, and miss out on business opportunities. I know economy is awful right now, that's why many people are returning to school. If you have the means and can take a bit of risk, you can end up on top! Have some confidence:) Best of luck!
 
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What timing for this discussion. This show aired tonight across Canada - an investigative report by "Marketplace", a 2011 Gemini-Award winning documentary show. The episode was called "Framed - What the industry doesn't want you to know about your eyeglasses."

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2012/framed/

The entire show just aired tonight. The full episode will be on the CBC website beginning Saturday morning. The optical industry has braced for this show for months. It wasn't exactly a flattering picture.
 
I agree, its quite a huge rip-off and ODs need to stop peddling them. With all the new medical laws passing you can advertise yourself as an eye doctor, get on medical plans and just give out rxs for medications and for glasses/contacts and not be a salesman/woman. The problem is many ODs just don't have the "balls" or lets say the courage to do this. I don't care if I have to move to Montana, I am doing this :) (I await the beratement :hungover:)
 
I agree, its quite a huge rip-off and ODs need to stop peddling them. With all the new medical laws passing you can advertise yourself as an eye doctor, get on medical plans and just give out rxs for medications and for glasses/contacts and not be a salesman/woman. The problem is many ODs just don't have the "balls" or lets say the courage to do this. I don't care if I have to move to Montana, I am doing this :) (I await the beratement :hungover:)

Oh Jesus, Shnurek, I can't begin to tell you how unfounded in reality your statements are. If you think you can be an OD and not "peddle" glasses and CLs, you're lost. I don't know what profession you think you're getting into, but it must not be optometry. If you're not in a VA setting, you're going to be selling glasses. If you're in ANY private practice setting, you're going to be selling materials. I should say, you're going to be trying to sell materials.

I feel bad for you, dude, you're going to get a cold splash of water when you graduate. You think the answers to all of the problems the ODs on here are screaming about lie in simply moving to Montana. You can run from optometry's problems, but you can't hide. They'll find you no matter where you go. You're in it for the long haul now, but you'd really be better off facing reality than trying to convince yourself that all is going to be just dandy if you move to an isolated igloo in North Dakota. You'll understand it soon enough, but for now, you just don't get it.
 
I know a PCO grad that just got a job with an MD for $105k straight out of school and doesn't have to peddle glasses, be quiet jasonk, its entirely possible and she got it in NJ.
 
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I know a PCO grad that just got a job with an MD for $105k straight out of school and doesn't have to peddle glasses, be quiet jasonk, its entirely possible and she got it in NJ.

Cluelessness abounds. Shnurek, your galpal is definitely going to "get it" in Jersey. She'll be just like most other new grads in MD offices; a refracting jockey, seeing a high volume of healthy patients and spinning dials until her hands bleed. Most new grad positions in OD offices are there for the benefit of the MD's optical. They're not going to be handing over their medical cases. They'll be sending you refractions, CL fittings, and maybe uncomplicated lasik followups.

You can't change facts, Shnurek. No matter how much you'd like to. Even if your sassy friend were to have landed a supercalifragilisticexpialadocious position in an MD office (which I doubt), it doesn't change the facts. Line up 1000 grads from last year and see where they all went. Then come back and tell me to "be quiet."
 
I know a PCO grad that just got a job with an MD for $105k straight out of school and doesn't have to peddle glasses, be quiet jasonk, its entirely possible and she got it in NJ.

No one is saying you won't make anything. But for every 1 friend you post, I am sure the other 9 friends are scrambling to piece together PT jobs and/or a commercial gig.

I'm not knocking commercial vs hospital vs private vs MD....we just want you to know your real options out there. Because they were certainly skewed in school.
 
http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2012/framed/

The full 22-min episode is now viewable on the site. It aired nationally last night, and as of this moment, already has 426 comments.

Newscasts like this (and the information they contain) should make you think twice about the security of being in the optical industry going forward.
 
http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2012/framed/

The full 22-min episode is now viewable on the site. It aired nationally last night, and as of this moment, already has 426 comments.

Newscasts like this (and the information they contain) should make you think twice about the security of being in the optical industry going forward.

Good, I don't really care about the optical industry. I'm not training here to be an optician. I will be writing out the scripts and the patients can figure out whether they want to buy them from luxotica or from China for $15.

Thank you meibomian for warning me and I realize that most of my classmates are going to go this way. Scrambling for part time jobs in oversaturated NYC. I however, am much more flexible and will go where the money is. If that means joining the Air Force then I shall do that, if that means going as jasonk would call it "to an igloo in the middle of nowhere" then so be it. I don't have familial obligations. I have experience with an ophthalmologist. I am very adventurous and love taking risks. And I will have very little debt when I get out <50k. Or none if I do the Air Force. I realize I am unlike most of my fellow classmates both financially and in many other ways which sets me apart and honestly when they tell me they will have 200k in debt I feel bad for them inside. There's nothing I can do for them so I see why you guys are spreading the word here. To make people think about their life choices.
 
Good, I don't really care about the optical industry....I will be writing out the scripts and the patients can figure out whether they want to buy them from luxotica or from China for $15.

You really do not understand how the profession you're about to enter works in reality. I don't know what kind of optometry you're planning on working in, but unless you're in the VA system, your plan is going to collapse around you. MD offices can get away with not having opticals because their procedure revenue can make up for it. ODs cannot make up for optical loss with procedures because the reimbursements we get for our services are pathetic. If you think you can float the boat by only billing services and having no material revenue, you'd better have a few people in the back room providing stationary-bike-powered-electricity for your office. You won't be paying the bills with medical services. Sorry, dude - your plan doesn't have legs beneath it.
 
Schnurek,
You have no idea what you are talking about. Graduate and when you get a FT or PT job you will not know what hit you. All you students in OD school literally have been brain washed by academia. This profession isn't getting any easier in terms of finding work and salaries have plateau and actually gone done. In big cities where there is oversaturation, NYC for example OD's aren't getting "deals" anymore like they use to back in the days. If you ask for $1.00 more on ur day off to fill in that someone needs you they'll take you to go F@-K yourself thank you for responding. We found someone who will work. Heydays are gone buddy. OD's NO LONGER NEGOTIATE N DICTATE SALARY. This is scaring me. But if you believe you'll be a hero.......good luck. Call me when you wake up.


You are clueless.....................
 
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In big cities where there is oversaturation, NYC for example OD's aren't getting "deals" anymore like they use to back in the days. If you ask for $1.00 more on ur day off to fill in that someone needs you they'll take you to go F@-K yourself thank you for responding.
lol that's pretty funny, but good thing I won't be working in the clusterf*ck that is NYC or any big city.

Heydays are gone buddy. OD's NO LONGER NEGOTIATE N DICTATE SALARY.

That's funny because I negotiated salary as an ophthalmic technician off the street with basically having no experience except for a bachelor's degree in bio. Lasik guys wanted to give me $17 but a retina doc said she'll give me $19 so that was great :) Maybe you don't know how to negotiate or when people see you or jasonk they might think loser (like KHE kept saying that opto schools let in too many loser guys so I apologize if you are not one or at least don't think you are) but that doesn't mean everybody is the same. Yea, the point is to try to be a hero and not a self-hating loser that instead of bolstering the profession they tell people not to enter it.
 
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That's funny because I negotiated salary as an ophthalmic technician off the street with basically having no experience except for a bachelor's degree in bio. Lasik guys wanted to give me $17 but a retina doc said she'll give me $19 so that was great :) Maybe you don't know how to negotiate or when people see you or jasonk they might think loser (like KHE kept saying that opto schools let in too many loser guys so I apologize if you are not one or at least don't think you are) but that doesn't mean everybody is the same. Yea, the point is to try to be a hero and not a self-hating loser that instead of bolstering the profession they tell people not to enter it.

Shnurek - you have so much to learn. You negotiated as an.......ophthalmic tech.....not an OD. If you don't know this already, those are two very different fields. One is massively oversupplied, and the other is not. I'll let you fill in the blanks.

Secondly. You seem to be good at making assumptions. You assume because I am pointing out the bleak future of optometry, that I somehow must not have what it takes, right? Same mistake I made about 10 years ago, so I can't blame you for it. But, let's take a look at Jason's cv, shall we? If you were to look at my rather weighty cv, you'd see that I've authored two chapters in textbooks that you're probably going to read in the next couple of years (happy reading :laugh:). I've published numerous articles, several as lead author. I've made guest lecturer appearances at several OD programs and I'm asked a couple of times per year to do CE lectures to my local optometric society. Let's see, I'm also an advisor to a pharmaceutical company and I've lectured at three academy meetings. I'm a fellow of the American Academy of Optometry and I've completed a good portion of the requirements for my diplomate status with the Academy.......6 years out of school. I also secured offers in two of the most successful offices in the country, albeit for crap pay, which I refused to take for my own reasons. In both cases, the associates who took the jobs left after their first year of employment. I could continue, but I'm getting bored.

I've accomplished more in my 6 years as an OD than you'll ever accomplish in your future outback Walmart career, refracting moose and doing CL fittings on caribou since there won't be enough in the way of human patients to keep you going. Hey, maybe I just stumbled onto something? Maybe all the excess ODs could keep themselves afloat by providing canine cosmetic tinted lenses for women with purse-sized dogs and the like? Maybe some rural farmers want their cattle to be able to see extra sharp and we could do Synergeyes fits on bovine patients. Might need to modify your box...I mean exam room...to fit those kinds of patients. Walmart and Sam's will probably let you blow out a wall or something.

Keep making assumptions, though, Shnurek. These posts stay up for years to come so when you finally realize how right I was, don't forget to come back and reminisce....:D
 
Keep making assumptions, though, Shnurek. These posts stay up for years to come so when you finally realize how right I was, don't forget to come back and reminisce....:D

OK I'll get back to ya. If you were right and I'll end up being a commercial sell out then I'll send you a cake and a fine liquor bottle. BTW, I actually called a lot of rural practices before I chose optometry and many of them are booked for weeks.
 
OK I'll get back to ya. If you were right and I'll end up being a commercial sell out then I'll send you a cake and a fine liquor bottle. BTW, I actually called a lot of rural practices before I chose optometry and many of them are booked for weeks.

I'll be right - there's no other outcome given the situation. It's like asking "If I throw a rock into the air, will it fall back to the ground?"

And again, for the millionth time......those are THEIR practices.....not yours. You guys seem to forget that little nugget of info....and it's the key to everything we've been saying all along. You'll see very soon....
 
Regarding the opinions from our resident first year expert...

"Confidence is what you have before you understand the problem."

Woody Allen
 
Good, I don't really care about the optical industry. I'm not training here to be an optician. I will be writing out the scripts and the patients can figure out whether they want to buy them from luxotica or from China for $15.

Just for the record, you will not be the first to try a private OD practice without selling glasses. Others have tried. I tried years ago thinking (probably the same as you) that I will be the 'doctor of their eyes' and let someone else be their 'eyeglass' salesman'. Remember, historically ODs have sold glasses and CLs not necessarily because they like doing it. They did it because they HAD to do it, lest they don't eat.

Remember the average overhead for a medium size practice is about $25,000/month. That means you don't see a penny until you make the first $25,000 to pay everything and every one. So in essense, you are working 3 weeks out of the month just to pay the bills. Or put another way, you work from Jan to Sept to pay the overhead of your practice. You get the keep the money made from Oct, Nov and Dec. Without the ever-shrinking income from optical, I would never make any money. I'd be running the practice just to break even. Hardly the way a business can stay afloat.

I found 3 main problems with the, "I'm going to be a real doctor and not sell glasses" approach:

(1) About 60% of the patients were fine with this and actually wanted to take the Rx elsewhere (I am in a heavy commercial optometry area--as is most of the country). The problem is the other 40%. They were irritated that I couldn't offer "one-stop-shopping". They actually want to buy from my office (or at least wanted to look in my optical and keep my employee busy for an hour while they write down the frame info they need to go home and order it on line). Many did not come back (despite my sparkling personality, great staff and my personal good looks) so that was a very bad experiment.

(2). The Rx's you send out may be filled by just about anyone from a licensed optican to a guy that never got passed the 2nd grade somewhere in Mumbia, India. Some will be within ANSI specs and many won't be. Guess what the patient will do first and foremost. They will complain to you and demand to be seen and refracted again at NO COST. You'll be doing about 2 of these free 'exams' follow-ups per day. And you will have lost about $150 profit from each pair of glasses you lost. The 'free rechecks' used to be built in to the price of your glasses so now you will 'eat the cost'. And that little recheck will cost you. Rent, taxes, staff, equipment. It's take all off that even for the "free stuff" you will do day in and day out. Multiply 10 eyeglasses lost/day x 12 months and you just lost a LOT of money. ($20,000 net income a month you lost by everyone buying their glasses elsewhere). That's $240,000 of income over year you will be totally out of the running for.

(3) Which brings me to point # 3. The average income in optometry is said to be about $120,000 give or take. Historically, 60% was from glasses. This is not because ODs get a hard-on playing with glasses. It's because they MUST sell them to pay the bills. See, that's $72,000 out of your $120,000 income from glasses and contact lenses. Without them you will be making $48,000 in income. Hardly enough to live on after loans and expenses. You will be making so little you might be eligible for food stamps (if you pop out a few kids).

Not to mention, many of the patients you do see will end up elswhere when they roam into the dollar optical and see that they can get a cheapo eye exam there in their closet too. Remember, people are lazy and almost always want the easy and the cheap way out. Put them both together and you have a winning combination, right (if you're a high volume warehouse store). But there is an old saying on a sign I read: 'You can have speed, accuracy or inexpensive but only 2 of those at a time.'

There is not enough eye exams and eye disease to make up for the loss of optical income. Plain and simple. I used to think there was just like you. I have all the fansy equipment to test for it. But they are not running 12 hours straight diagnosis all kinds of exotic diseases hour after hour.

You might can find a job in a non-dispensing OMD practice (which is getting rarer and rarer) but just know, no matter what, you will be his lacky. His clean up boy. Seeing post ops all day or being his refractor for $95,000 year. You will get burned out being treated like one of his techs. I've seen it happen more than a few times. Who knows, you might get lucky and 'partner' up with a good OMD but these situation are about as rare as a Roswell landing.
 
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(2). The Rx's you send out may be filled by just about anyone from a licensed optican to a guy that never got passed the 2nd grade somewhere in Mumbia, India.

I've always gotten my glasses in India. 25% of the cost, have all the latest styles, and they work perfectly, even from a store in the middle of no-where fishing village that my family is from. I'm sure Mumbai is even classier. Respect.
 
I've always gotten my glasses in India. 25% of the cost, have all the latest styles, and they work perfectly, even from a store in the middle of no-where fishing village that my family is from. I'm sure Mumbai is even classier. Respect.

When the lenses shatter and you have permanent vision loss, who are you going to sue?
 
I've always gotten my glasses in India. 25% of the cost, have all the latest styles, and they work perfectly, even from a store in the middle of no-where fishing village that my family is from. I'm sure Mumbai is even classier. Respect.

Congratulations. :bow:

And thank you for supporting America and it's workers.
 
Congratulations. :bow:

And thank you for supporting America and it's workers.

Hey now, nothing wrong with a little healthy competition. I have a Japanese car for example because I know the make superior products and for a lower price than any American would make it for. If you want the reasons behind this I'll go into them. But in any case let the med student learn about quality vs. cost the hard way.
 
This is the problem with your statements. It's funny that Shnurek answered all your comments with the Toyota example, yet fails to apply it to eyeglasses.

Here's the point, since you obviously missed it...you are not protected by FDA rules when you buy overseas. Do ANSI standards mean anything to you? Would you recommend your patients fill their Rx for heart meds the way you buy your glasses?
 
I agree but all that needs to happen is for a factory in China to make lenses at 5 cents that are polycarb and at US standards and then sell them for $10 online. The inherent problem is that we have such a huge markup on our glasses. The profit margin is so high it is easy to undercut. As opposed to cars where the profit margin is 1K-2K for a 30K car..That is 3%-6%. Online it is hard to undercut that. However if your profit margin is 400% it is easy to undercut. It eats into my business but if someone can get similar quality lenses for $5 why wouldnt they. Even if the Rx is off and they need a three new lenses to get it right, they are still hundreds of dollars saved over getting it at my store. I find the elderly patients and those who want convenience use my services. A lot of 20 year olds and college students get stuff online which is fine. In 30 years everyone may..who knows.
 
Here's the point, since you obviously missed it...you are not protected by FDA rules when you buy overseas. Do ANSI standards mean anything to you? Would you recommend your patients fill their Rx for heart meds the way you buy your glasses?
And here's my point since you obviously missed it -- do you really think that every Indian store is unregulated? There are analogous Indian organizations that police the quality of merchandise at reputable stores (not the guy on the street with a trenchcoat who you can find even in NYC) at equal standards to the US. Millions of people in India have heart disease and take medication. Do you really imagine that they're all dropping off dead because of poorly regulated medications?

It's the fact that you don't realize that there are reputable, safe, and efficacious ways to obtain high quality merchandise (be it machines, electronics, meds, or eyeglasses) overseas, that burns me.
 
I'm starting at PCO next fall. I have to admit that these forums have been making me a little nervous about this career path. I do understand that the nature of forums causes them to be a little self-selective, but the tone here seems to be overwhelmingly negative. Is there anyone who actually enjoys this job and makes decent money?

I have around a 3.9 GPA as a pre-med major, and I'm starting to think that maybe I should do something else. If I'm honest, I don't really know that I feel like going through med school and actually becoming a medical doctor. Most of my friends and some of my cousins are pharmacists, and I've been considering pharmacy as well. However, I get bored very easily, and I always thought that optometry would provide me with a stable career and a little more day-to-day interaction. I've also been led to believe that the market for pharmacists is going to be saturated soon too.

I do care about the welfare of people, and I would like a job where I can help others, but I also enjoy living well. Am I making a mistake? I wouldn't even mind working for a corporation like Wal-Mart if I had to. If I could hear a few success stories, I think my mind would be put at ease, but I also want to point out that I appreciate the honesty of the posters who seem to be less than thrilled with this profession.

Update on what you decided to do? If you have a 3.9 GPA, why PCO over Berkeley? I feel like at least Berkeley has a very strong reputation that might have given you a bit of an edge in the job competition market.
 
Update on what you decided to do? If you have a 3.9 GPA, why PCO over Berkeley? I feel like at least Berkeley has a very strong reputation that might have given you a bit of an edge in the job competition market.

Hey there, I'm back. As of now, I'm still going for optometry school. I honestly don't think that I have the dedication right now to be a medical doctor. Also, I'm planning on eventually getting into real estate or some type of business, so I just don't think that going through med school would be worth it to me. Will I regret this decision? Possibly.

Believe me, if I could have gone to Berkeley or even SCCO, I would have jumped at the chance. My problem is that I don't technically have a Bio degree. I switched majors twice, and so I'm behind on some university core classes and a few more more Bio classes. At this point, I don't feel like wasting more time before being out in the world. Yes, I know this is stupid. I hope that no one feels that I was misleading with my GPA. It's a 3.9 for all of the pre-req science and math classes (and a decent chunk of cores), but if I continued, I think it would still be around a 3.9. I'm not saying this to brag; it's just that I don't think any of the classes that I would need to take to finish my degree would be more difficult than the science and math that I already took.

I think I'm getting a little burned out on school, which is another reason that I've decided against medicine for the time being. I was high school salutatorian and then I came to college and continued to make myself work really hard, and I'm not complaining; I did this to myself. My parents aren't pushy.

I'm actually pretty nervous for the workload next year though. I hope that I can hold my own with everyone else, but from what I've read on this site, the schools accept much lower scores than I ever imagined.

I feel like I've disappointed everyone in this thread, but I do want to say that I sincerely appreciate the replies.
 
Hey there, I'm back. As of now, I'm still going for optometry school. I honestly don't think that I have the dedication right now to be a medical doctor. Also, I'm planning on eventually getting into real estate or some type of business, so I just don't think that going through med school would be worth it to me. Will I regret this decision? Possibly.

Believe me, if I could have gone to Berkeley or even SCCO, I would have jumped at the chance. My problem is that I don't technically have a Bio degree. I switched majors twice, and so I'm behind on some university core classes and a few more more Bio classes. At this point, I don't feel like wasting more time before being out in the world. Yes, I know this is stupid. I hope that no one feels that I was misleading with my GPA. It's a 3.9 for all of the pre-req science and math classes (and a decent chunk of cores), but if I continued, I think it would still be around a 3.9. I'm not saying this to brag; it's just that I don't think any of the classes that I would need to take to finish my degree would be more difficult than the science and math that I already took.

I think I'm getting a little burned out on school, which is another reason that I've decided against medicine for the time being. I was high school salutatorian and then I came to college and continued to make myself work really hard, and I'm not complaining; I did this to myself. My parents aren't pushy.

I'm actually pretty nervous for the workload next year though. I hope that I can hold my own with everyone else, but from what I've read on this site, the schools accept much lower scores than I ever imagined.

I feel like I've disappointed everyone in this thread, but I do want to say that I sincerely appreciate the replies.

thanks for the update!!! :) I really don't think your major matters, as long as you have all the science pre-requisites it should not matter in admissions. Or do you mean you won't have a BS degree (of any major) by the end of this year?

I'm not sure why you would get an OD degree if you want to go into business? My friend got a pharmacy degree and went into business school so now she works for a drug company and makes hella bank haha, but I do not think you can do the same thing with an OD degree. I would go to business school instead of OD school if that's what you want to do...Anyways, good luck at PCO, I interviewed there, it's a really pretty campus :)
 
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I'm actually pretty nervous for the workload next year though. I hope that I can hold my own with everyone else, but from what I've read on this site, the schools accept much lower scores than I ever imagined..

All professional schools have large ranges of scores they accept. For example take a look at the URM Medical school acceptance list. MCAT of like 24 and GPA of 3.1 and you have a ~50% chance of being accepted if you are of a certain race. In any case not to disappoint you further but college workload was a joke for me compared to optometry school. Might not be the same at PCO but at SUNY we get our butts kicked. 10% of the last years class failed so I hope not to fail this year. And mind you our average matriculant GPA is 3.5 so we are not just slackers.
 
All professional schools have large ranges of scores they accept. For example take a look at the URM Medical school acceptance list. MCAT of like 24 and GPA of 3.1 and you have a ~50% chance of being accepted if you are of a certain race. In any case not to disappoint you further but college workload was a joke for me compared to optometry school. Might not be the same at PCO but at SUNY we get our butts kicked. 10% of the last years class failed so I hope not to fail this year. And mind you our average matriculant GPA is 3.5 so we are not just slackers.


How many classes/hours per semester at SUNY? How many hrs do you study on avg. per day? Are you struggling to pass classes?
 
My brother read this post and asked to comment on his behalf: (he is on an admissions board in pennslvania for a med school).

The 50% acceptance for the MCAT of 24 and GPA of 3.1 for a certain ethnicity factor may be true but it is also true that the fail out rate of those students is close to 40% and if you also include the percentage of those students who are asked by their medical school to go to "reduced load" (aka fewer classes per year but you graduate in 5-6 years) the overall graduate in 4 year rate goes down to 30-40%. I think citing affirmative action candidates and not including the followup data is a little misleading. To say that you can get in with those grades and somehow do ok is totally misleading. In fact, some med school admissions people have noted that accepting "unqualified" candidates for medical school through affirmative action, nepotism, whatever may be the biggest disservice to the candidate more than the school or society. 40%of those student ends up with 50-200K in debt, no degree and a wasted two years.
 
The 50% acceptance for the MCAT of 24 and GPA of 3.1 for a certain ethnicity factor may be true but it is also true that the fail out rate of those students is close to 40%

Official statistics of said ethnicity state that the attrition rate is 7%.

I guess if you ask for the final graduation rate it might be like 40% at that particular school which might include financial, personal or other reasons.
 
How many classes/hours per semester at SUNY? How many hrs do you study on avg. per day? Are you struggling to pass classes?

90% of students are struggling to pass OTP. Malignant professor.
 
The data you showed was graduation rate over 10 years.

Also included in the data of 1000 students are roughly the three historically black colleges (howard, meharry, UCLA-Drew) where there are 150 students per class with a low fail out rate skewing the data. If you elimated those 450 students the number over 10 years would roughly double to atleast 15%. At our school it was more like 40%.

Signing off and back to my brother Mike
 
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90% of students are struggling to pass OTP. Malignant professor.

My friend goes to SUNY and is doing well in her classes. She also has a job and finds time to party on weekends.
 
Like I said, 90%. The class average on the last midterm was in the 50's. She could be special.

Or you could be exaggerating? Is this the only course in which your class is struggling or is it true for all classes? Never thought half of SUNY students would be failing. What percentage is considered a pass at SUNY?
 
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