Is applying for the HPSP a committment?

[dillydally]

I'm considering HPSP for med school, but it depends on the school I end up at. I've been accepted at the University of Maryland, and if this is where I go then I think I would enjoy HPSP.

However, I'm on the waitlist for Mayo and Baylor, and I feel that the additional opportunities those schools offer combined with being substantially cheaper don't line up as well with HPSP. They are also my top 2 schools.

I talked to a navy recruiter, and he says that the stuff I sign for the application don't matter and I can always say no later on. Basically, he said I haven't committed until I raised my arm to the square a month or 2 before school starts. This means that if I get accepted to Baylor or Mayo I'm free to decline HPSP and go on with life.

However, I talked to an air force recruiter and he told me he wouldn't even send in my application until I've committed, because they don't want to waste their money on my app if I'm wishy washy.

So, is an application a commitment? Is the navy recruiter telling me the truth when he says I'm committing to nothing by applying?

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[IlDestriero]

Applying does not commit you to anything. Go for it. Just make sure your essay is not wishy washy.
Reaseach the FAP prior to signing your contract and taking the oath.

 

[AF M4]

Applying does not commit you to anything. Go for it. Just make sure your essay is not wishy washy.
Reaseach the FAP prior to signing your contract and taking the oath.

Agree. Your application is just that, an application. Similar to being notified that you're pre-approved for a credit card; you don't have to join American Express, it's just available.

If they accept it, they will come calling with a contract and an oath of office. Typically you do the oath and sign the contract the same day. This is the binding stuff.

Also, stay away from the Air Force medical service. Bad juju.

 

[Barcu]

I actually signed an intent to accept the scholarship from the AF, but even my recruiter told me that I could potentially back out up until I attend my first day of medical school through a "remorse clause."

Go ahead and apply. They can't do anything to you if you only apply. Just pretend like you are really interested until you make a final decision.

 

[bluebird123]

My recruiter told me that once you sign the letter accepting the scholarship, the money is set aside for you and cannot be given to another applicant. So while you can still turn it down later on, for the sake of the other applicants, I wouldn't sign an acceptance letter unless you are sure that you want to take the scholarship.

You certainly don't need to make a decision before you apply, but if and when you get a letter of acceptance, don't be a jerk. Don't accept the money planning to back out later, or some other applicant may end up screwed because of you.

 

[dillydally]

Thanks everyone. I think I'll go ahead and apply for the navy. However, I just realized that the income based repayment program might be a killer deal for me. We will probably have 3 kids by the time residency starts which would make monthly payments extremely low. Something to think about.

I've read through a lot of the past threads and I have another question: does anyone know if navy peds docs really get deployed seeing adults?

 

[DocArmy]

Thanks everyone. I think I'll go ahead and apply for the navy. However, I just realized that the income based repayment program might be a killer deal for me. We will probably have 3 kids by the time residency starts which would make monthly payments extremely low. Something to think about.

I've read through a lot of the past threads and I have another question: does anyone know if navy peds docs really get deployed seeing adults?

Pediatrics covers birth to age 21 (I believe). A lot of the Boot-to-Ass element of the military fall into that 18-21 range. Lots of sons and little brothers are out there with the Marines and they would fall right in to your training age.

Also, a deployed pediatrician is a battalion surgeon (or Navy analogue), so your position is primary care for whomever you're attached to. The doctor from On Call In Hell was a Navy Urologist. So, nonsurgical specialties are appropriated to combat units as primary care doctors, not specialists.

 

[IlDestriero]

Here's a couple tips about the military. You're not obligated until you sign the contract and take the oath. And, once you do, you're more likely to be elected to the Senate than get out of your obligation before your 8 years are up.
A letter of intent is non binding. Don't worry about that.

 

[IlDestriero]

One more thing, don't trust recruiters. The are masters of 1/2 truths and making the one in a million sound like the norm.
Often they just don't understand the details of the medical corps.

 

[bluebird123]

Agree. Your application is just that, an application. Similar to being notified that you're pre-approved for a credit card; you don't have to join American Express, it's just available.

If they accept it, they will come calling with a contract and an oath of office. Typically you do the oath and sign the contract the same day. This is the binding stuff.

Also, stay away from the Air Force medical service. Bad juju.

What's wrong with the Air Force?

I know that the plural of anecdotes is not data, but I recently met a peds cardiologist who left the Navy after 16 years when they told him he was going to have to work on adults for the next four. So apparently it does happen.

 

[AF M4]

What's wrong with the Air Force?

I know that the plural of anecdotes is not data, but I recently met a peds cardiologist who left the Navy after 16 years when they told him he was going to have to work on adults for the next four. So apparently it does happen.

Oh, I won't bore you reciting long tales of woe. There are plenty of other threads on this board detailing problems with the AF medical service.

Actually, here's a fun project for you to assign both your Navy and AF recruiters (and Army, if you're so inclined)....ask for service-specific numbers on exactly how many physicians stay on after their first contract is up. Meaning, how often do people jump ship at the first opportunity? That's about as clear a litmus test for job satisfaction as you'll find.

The last retention rate numbers I heard for AF physicians was somewhere between 5-10%.

 

[dillydally]

I also want to ask the navy recruiter, in particular, for some stats on how many people train straight through their residency without having to do a GMO.

 

[AF M4]

I also want to ask the navy recruiter, in particular, for some stats on how many people train straight through their residency without having to do a GMO.

A forward-thinking idea.

 

[bluebird123]

Oh, I won't bore you reciting long tales of woe. There are plenty of other threads on this board detailing problems with the AF medical service.

Actually, here's a fun project for you to assign both your Navy and AF recruiters (and Army, if you're so inclined)....ask for service-specific numbers on exactly how many physicians stay on after their first contract is up. Meaning, how often do people jump ship at the first opportunity? That's about as clear a litmus test for job satisfaction as you'll find.

The last retention rate numbers I heard for AF physicians was somewhere between 5-10%.

I do not agree with your premise.

All of the USAF docs that I have met on my own (not through a recruiter, but through friends) have been very happy. Only on SDN do I hear people saying how miserable they are, and it's usually the same people over and over again. Sounds a bit like a case of a vocal minority to me.

I also think a low retention rate is to be expected given the financial realities of the situation. People join to get money for school, then get out to make more money in the civilian world. I don't think that is necessarily a sign of poor job satisfaction, just a desire to make more money.

 

[ruiner]

This is N=1 of course but when I was going through the recruiting process and talking to the branches, the Air Force guy was such a slimeball liar. I had almost done AF ROTC out of high school so they were my original first choice but I had such a bad taste in my mouth I also switched my preferences for USUHS to AF last.

 

[bluebird123]

I'm sorry to hear that! I've met my share of recruiters (my husband is just getting out of the AF now), and some have definitely been used car salesmen, but I've found them to be the exception, not the rule. I actually get along great with my recruiter. He used to be in a partner career field to my husband's!

 

[AF M4]

I do not agree with your premise.

All of the USAF docs that I have met on my own (not through a recruiter, but through friends) have been very happy. Only on SDN do I hear people saying how miserable they are, and it's usually the same people over and over again. Sounds a bit like a case of a vocal minority to me.

I also think a low retention rate is to be expected given the financial realities of the situation. People join to get money for school, then get out to make more money in the civilian world. I don't think that is necessarily a sign of poor job satisfaction, just a desire to make more money.

Premise is sound. The subset of people who want to and become physicians are generally people with a significant amount more drive and willingness to sacrifice to help the next person than the average American. When you take that field of helpful people and distill it further to include those willing to take even more risks by joining the military, you tend to get a group of very motivated and bright individuals who are generally quite excited to enter the Air Force.

But then more than 90% of these very bright and motivated people, who were initially excited to serve in the military, leave the Air Force at the first opportunity.

Money is always a factor in any significant decision. But I do take offense at your statement that it's just a desire to make more money. Quite frankly, the Air Force treats its docs and medical professionals in general like crap. Good people don't let themselves get treated like crap, and good medical professionals leave the Air Force in droves at the first opportunity. This is a statistical fact.

The money in the military is not great, but it would be enough to satisfy these bright, motivated individuals if the actual Air Force experience were anything close to what they thought it would be when they so enthusiastically first joined.

Ultimately though, the only way you're likely to believe is through personal experience. Come on in, and let us know how it turns out for you.

 

[dillydally]

What is the likelihood of being able to enter a fellowship for a pediatric specialty right after residency in the different branches? And does this add to payback time?

 

[J-Rad]

What is the likelihood of being able to enter a fellowship for a pediatric specialty right after residency in the different branches? And does this add to payback time?

There is 0.0% chance that anyone will be able to answer this first question for you, ever, for any service. This is due to: yearly changes in the needs of the subspecialties themselves and the fact that it may also highly depend on your performance in residency and how many other people (and their quality as applicants) want to do the same thing as you that year. Overall, it happens sometimes, but not all the time. That's as close to a real answer you're going to be able to get.

The answer to your second question is much easier* (for the sake of clarity I am assuming someone who has a 3-4 commitment form HPSP and then goes straight to fellowship): if you do fellowship in-service (i.e. in a .mil fellowship) then there is (functionally) no additional time commitment. If one trains out of service deferred (i.e. unfunded), then there is no additional time commitment. If one trains out-of-service funded (i.e. still on active duty and getting paid by the .mil while in fellowship. "FTOS" in Navy parlance or "civilian sponsored" in AF/Army lingo) then there is a 1:1 payback commitment, additive to the med school time debt.

*There are some nuances to this, mostly affecting people in different timeline scenarios that could alter this to some degree, but it doesn't serve your question to get that far into the weeds.

 

[NavyFP]

What is the likelihood of being able to enter a fellowship for a pediatric specialty right after residency in the different branches? And does this add to payback time?

Likelihood - very low immediately following residency. Maybe 10%.(probably generous)

Likelihood ever - generally good, but may take 4 to 6 years. As previously noted it depends on need. For any given Peds subspecialty we need 1 per peds residency and 3-6 elswhere in the services. So it depends on how rapidly they are getting out/retiring.

Yes, it adds time - year for year.

 

[J-Rad]

Likelihood - very low immediately following residency. Maybe 10%.(probably generous)

Likelihood ever - generally good, but may take 4 to 6 years. As previously noted it depends on need. For any given Peds subspecialty we need 1 per peds residency and 3-6 elswhere in the services. So it depends on how rapidly they are getting out/retiring.

Yes, it adds time - year for year.

I would respectfully point out that there a few problems with your answers: Your "Very low. Maybe 10%" answer is misleading. It all depends on the year, the needs, the desires and record of the applicant, and service. You are overgeneralizing. It is best to say that there is no predictability. In the year I applied for my sub in my service, there was an excellent chance that I was going to be able to train straight through. If I had desired to do child neurology that year, chances would have been zero. They weren't looking for any that cycle. Some of my USN residency-mates were able to train straight through. AF is still giving more civilian sponsored while the USN seems to be moving toward giving more deferments. And on that subject, see my above response. Additional payback time depends on whether you were funded during fellowship or not, and this is consistent across the services.

 

[Nirv]

I'm coming to the end of my 3 yr HPSP AF tour. You are not obligated for applying. Just make sure you know exactly what you are signing.
Then, if you decide to change your specialty, you have to get AF approval. There's no guarantee they'll let you. And you still may be forced to be a GMO if you upset the wrong people. (not happened to me)
You have to apply to a military residency first. Probably nothing wrong with that; but being trained at an Emory instead of a Military hospital will have its advantages professionally in practice and then when looking for certain jobs.
Everyone signs to start July (whatever) after you complete residency. The DoD pays you physician bonuses to make up for the sub100k salary. Bonuses can only be signed the beginning of the fiscal year (Oct 1). So if you want to get out in June of the last year of your commitment, then you can't unless you pass up on that bonus (basically a 15 to 20k drop in income your last year active duty.
Also, if you have 12 months or less, then you will not likely get a CME conference paid for by your employer (DoD). So that's another 2.k or so expense you will not get.
Don't forget that the AF is trying to limit enlisted people, mainly by upping physical standards, and performing testing every 6 months. Just cause you're a doctor, doesn't mean you aren't on the chopping block for this. Fail a PT, and you'll get admonished and some have their bonuses withheld.
Once you're done you'll realize that the equivalant of 130k yearly compensation (not salary because this includes savings in malpractice insurance and health insurance, etc.) and probably a 30k year savings in school debt from the loans you were spared by the HPSP doesn't stack up to the 250k salary you'll sign for when you leave.
Does this require more work? It does. but no more than when the other doctor in your clinic is lazy (and also did military residency but I'm sure this was just conincidence) and you end up doing the 6k RVUs anyways.

 

[dillydally]

Thank you everyone for your responses.

HPSP would actually save me close to 70-75K a year in loans.

My biggest drawbacks with the military is the possibility of having to do a GMO before I finish my residency and not having the freedom to specialize in what I want to do.

The idea of doing a residency and then paying the military back for 4 years sounds nice to me, but the chances seem too high that I will get sucked in for more than 4 years of residency and 4 years of service afterwards. The idea of getting 4 years of benefits in med school and then paying back 4 years after residency seems so simple and honorable that it draws me to HPSP, but it just doesn't seem as cut and dry as that.

Plus, what if I want to do a fellowship? It doesn't seem likely that I'll be able to do it right away, and if I do it in the military it seems likely I will add to my commitment. Furthermore, I'm not sure I would want to do one after I get out of the military and be reduced to making 50K a year for 3 years.

How often do people do fellowships after they get out of the military? It seems that HPSP is not ideal for people who want to do something requiring a fellowship and also aren't interested in staying in the military longer than necessary.

Even though supporting a growing family off of staggering loans seems daunting now, I'm starting to think I would prefer to shoulder debt vs forfeit my autonomy.

Autonomy--the magic word that signifies the military isn't for me?

 

[oneyearwonder]

Even though supporting a growing family off of staggering loans seems daunting now, I'm starting to think I would prefer to shoulder debt vs forfeit my autonomy.

Autonomy--the magic word that signifies the military isn't for me?[/QUOTE]

After doing my 3 years and getting out as quickly as humanly possible, I agree. Even as a civilian surgery intern, I had more autonomy than I did as a "attending" GMO.

I signed up when I was single and "hooah" and then got married / had kids in med school and then the desert travel wasn't quite as enticing as it was when I was single. (although clinic work at home station was actually more proportionally MORE painful than deployment)

A happier doctor serves the military patients better than an unhappy one. You can always join via FAP. you can always join later, on YOUR Terms. post fellowship.

 

[IlDestriero]

I generally recommend the FAP over HPSP.
If your school is that expensive and you WANT to be in the military, you could take on one year of debt, do a 3 year HPSP program with the Navy, internship, do a 3 year GMO tour somewhere and than get out and do the residency/fellowship of your choice as a civilian. People don't discuss the 3 year scholarship much, but it is available. In the Navy it is that simple. 3 years of payback after internship and out. You will still be in the IRR for the full 8 years, but that is true for all officers in all services. You can try to get a deferral for outservice training, but there is no guarantee that you would be selected, or that they would allow you to do your fellowship training afterward.
>$300K of debt is pretty bad. Back in the day $150k would keep people up at night. The tuition has more than tripled at my old medical school, and I haven't been out all that long. Ridiculous. Is the extra $10-15 million/yr in tuition worth it? F*** NO! Give me a break, it's a drop in the bucket. Tuition and fees at the medical school where I am on the faculty is $75k/yr. My hospital is >$1 billion/ year business. If you combine all the affiliated hospitals it's probably 3 times that, maybe more. Tuition should be 1/2 of what they're asking. I wouldn't go here if I was borrowing the whole thing, regardless of reputation. It's robbery.

 

[dillydally]

An article in Forbes this week compared the tuition rise to the recent housing bubble. As a whole, university tuitions have risen at 6 times the speed of inflation due to stimulation from financial aid. It doesn't take much analysis to start wondering just what kind of pop we're in for.

In and out with a 3 year HPSP does make me think. Yet, leaving military service with 70K of debt and then going into the grind of a residency doesn't sound all that attractive.

The thing about FAP is that it wouldn't cover all my debt. FAP seems very ideal for someone who attends a lower-cost medical school, has a desire to serve, and doesn't want to forfeit any control over choice of residency. They end up with money, their choice of specialty, and a chance to serve. For someone 300K in debt, however, the money is a boost but the fact is that they still have a fair amount of debt after paying taxes on the FAP money. Being both in debt monetarily to the bank/government and in debt by blood to the military at the same time doesn't seem to settle very well with me.


Here's another question, and I hope I don't sound arrogant or pretentious. I understand the military match can be more competitive simply due to lack of spots, but how does the competitiveness of the applicants themselves stack up to the applicants in the civilian match? I ask this because I have often heard that the bar is pretty low for the HPSP. I've always been at/near the top of my class. My MCAT was good but not mind-blowing (a 36) and my GPA is close to a 4.0. I understand everyone who gets into medical school is smart, but is it true that, in general, the true geniuses tend to shy away from the military? Following this train of logic, would the military match actually be less competitive in a way?

 

[Barcu]

.


Here's another question, and I hope I don't sound arrogant or pretentious. I understand the military match can be more competitive simply due to lack of spots, but how does the competitiveness of the applicants themselves stack up to the applicants in the civilian match? I ask this because I have often heard that the bar is pretty low for the HPSP. I've always been at/near the top of my class. My MCAT was good but not mind-blowing (a 36) and my GPA is close to a 4.0. I understand everyone who gets into medical school is smart, but is it true that, in general, the true geniuses tend to shy away from the military? Following this train of logic, would the military match actually be less competitive in a way?

Residencies are based on a point system. If you dig around this thread, you can find it. Or, if someone is reading this and knows, they can post it.

You get points for different things (I even can't remember everything that's on it). However, you get a ton of points for doing a GMO/FS tour. So, anyone who has done a tour will pretty much have the advantage over any med student applying straight out of school. The only way that seems to make up for this as a med student is research. I remember that was pretty significant. Still, that might not be enough.

That is one major problem I have seen with the military (take what I say with a grain of salt, I am starting school in the fall and doing HPSP, but I have also been lurking in these forums for a while). It's an organization that you have to put in your time. I'm sure some people match into a competitive specialty right out of school, but so many factors go into it that it probably isn't that common.

 

[AF M4]

An article in Forbes this week compared the tuition rise to the recent housing bubble. As a whole, university tuitions have risen at 6 times the speed of inflation due to stimulation from financial aid. It doesn't take much analysis to start wondering just what kind of pop we're in for.

In and out with a 3 year HPSP does make me think. Yet, leaving military service with 70K of debt and then going into the grind of a residency doesn't sound all that attractive.

The thing about FAP is that it wouldn't cover all my debt. FAP seems very ideal for someone who attends a lower-cost medical school, has a desire to serve, and doesn't want to forfeit any control over choice of residency. They end up with money, their choice of specialty, and a chance to serve. For someone 300K in debt, however, the money is a boost but the fact is that they still have a fair amount of debt after paying taxes on the FAP money. Being both in debt monetarily to the bank/government and in debt by blood to the military at the same time doesn't seem to settle very well with me.


Here's another question, and I hope I don't sound arrogant or pretentious. I understand the military match can be more competitive simply due to lack of spots, but how does the competitiveness of the applicants themselves stack up to the applicants in the civilian match? I ask this because I have often heard that the bar is pretty low for the HPSP. I've always been at/near the top of my class. My MCAT was good but not mind-blowing (a 36) and my GPA is close to a 4.0. I understand everyone who gets into medical school is smart, but is it true that, in general, the true geniuses tend to shy away from the military? Following this train of logic, would the military match actually be less competitive in a way?

Ha! You've got a dark turn of mind dillydally, I'll give you that. Being extremely smart and wanting to serve your country aren't mutually exclusive. However, having exceptional credentials tends to open more doors than the average joe, both in number and prestige of options. And due to a variety of reasons, military medicine simply isn't as prestigious as it once was.

There was a time, more than a decade or two ago, when the military health care system was a much more robust system with significant names on active duty whose work was well-known in the civilian medical community. Very smart people gravitated towards the military because of this prestige; there was a time that the HPSP was competitive even if you were going to an Ivy League school. Now because of budget cuts and a variety of other pillagings, the military medical system is barely a shell of its former self. So why would someone with many opportunities at significantly more well-kept places bother with the military?

It's not that people are shying away from the military for any particular reason associated with it being the military. People shy away from it because people tend to shy away from systems that look sketchy, particularly when they have other obviously better options and 'geniuses' tend to have lots of these. If military medicine ever cleaned itself up, more quality students would apply.

And you need to search this forum for the military match points sheet. You'll find that having high board scores makes a much bigger difference in the civilian world than they do in the military match.

 

[crazycooljoel]

Agree. Your application is just that, an application. Similar to being notified that you're pre-approved for a credit card; you don't have to join American Express, it's just available.

If they accept it, they will come calling with a contract and an oath of office. Typically you do the oath and sign the contract the same day. This is the binding stuff.

Also, stay away from the Air Force medical service. Bad juju.

What's wrong with the AF med? That is what I am working towards. I shadowed a couple flight docs at my last base and didn't notice anything that would concern me. Anything I may have missed?

 

[IlDestriero]

What's wrong with the AF med? That is what I am working towards. I shadowed a couple flight docs at my last base and didn't notice anything that would concern me. Anything I may have missed?

Of all the painful horror stories posted here, the AF is the most represented service by a factor of at least 2. The service cheerleaders are also underrepresented in the AF. Evidence, no. Trend, yes. I would have thought the AF was a better choice, apparently not. I went Navy for family tradition and oceanfront location.
Everyone goes in for their own reasons, just go in with your eyes open. And look at the FAP before signing for HPSP. A superior student is doing himself a disservice with most military GME programs.

 

[bluebird123]

I would just offer, as a counterpoint, the fact that the two Navy physicians I have talked to both told me that if they had the choice to make again, they would both choose AF over Navy. This was based on their own experiences, as well as their conversations with peers in AF medicine. They were both surgical subspecialists.

 

[Osteo4life]

Hello,

I want to do HPSP but only for 2 years, so I can do a GMO Flight Surgeon tour, but I want to do a civilian residency. Is there a 2 year HPSP Navy contract where they pay for only two years of medical school and I only owe two years of active service, (which I will do the GMO Flight Surgeon Tour) and then I will be done with my service to the Navy and go on to a civilian residency? Will I have to do a military internship and if so will that count as payback time for HPSP? Also, I have heard about Navy docs getting alternative assignments and being sent with the Army and Marines into combat, more frequently than before. Is there anyway to secure a flight surgeon slot in my HPSP contract or to ensure I will NOT have to do a military residency or even have to apply to one.

Thanks for any feedback.

 

[J-Rad]

You will have to apply for a PGY1 in the military. Applying for PGY2+ or a linked (en toto) residency is entirely optional. While no one will probably "guarantee" you flight med in any service, if you are physically qualified, your chances of getting it are excellent. If you went Air Force, your chances would approach 100%. Navy might be slightly more competitive since they have multiple GMO paths (fleet, greenside, UMO, flight) and flight is, I believe, considered "more desirable" than some of the others. I am less clear on the Army.

And a 2 year scholarship is a bum deal. There is always a 3-year-minimum commitment. There will be two years payback for med school, but there is always this weird three year payback that runs concurrent with other payback times IIRC.

 

[bluebird123]

You will have to apply for a PGY1 in the military. Applying for PGY2+ or a linked (en toto) residency is entirely optional. While no one will probably "guarantee" you flight med in any service, if you are physically qualified, your chances of getting it are excellent. If you went Air Force, your chances would approach 100%. Navy might be slightly more competitive since they have multiple GMO paths (fleet, greenside, UMO, flight) and flight is, I believe, considered "more desirable" than some of the others. I am less clear on the Army.

And a 2 year scholarship is a bum deal. There is always a 3-year-minimum commitment. There will be two years payback for med school, but there is always this weird three year payback that runs concurrent with other payback times IIRC.

I've been reading through my contract pre-commissioning, and I can verify that there is a 3-year minimum commitment. You owe 3 years just for participating in HPSP, plus one year per year of scholarship (minimum two years), and these two commitments are served concurrently. In other words, you owe three years for a two or three year scholarship, and four years for a four year scholarship. So if you want to take a two-year scholarship, you might as well apply for a three-year and get the extra money.

 

[IlDestriero]

To expand on the above, during your payback time (3 years) you could be assigned to an Army or AF deployment slot, but as a Navy flight surgeon that would be extremely unlikely. I have seen it with attending physicians, but have not heard of it for Navy GMOs. As a GMO you already have an assigned role and "your" patients. That's not true for a staff physician, who deploys to fulfill a new role in theater. If you did a GMO with the marines, you would of course travel with them.
If you are not selected for flight, you will need to do something else, so be prepared for the possibility. You have to apply for a Navy internship, but you have no obligation to apply for military residencies. You can, and many do, fulfill your obligated time as a GMO and get out.

 

[Osteo4life]

Thanks for the responses, I greatly appreciated them.

If I did a 3 year HPSP, I would have to conduct 1 year of Navy internship, then I would go on a 2 year Flight Surgeon tour? Or would the 1 year internship not count toward my payback for HPSP and be turned into a 3 year Flight Surgeon tour?

Does the Air Force also require a year of internship before becoming a flight surgeon? I have heard that Navy flight surgeons who are doing GMOs actually get stick time because they go to flight training for six months and fly 4 hours every month. Is the same true for the Air Force, because I have heard you have do to a flight medicine residency in order to be able to fly as a flight surgeon in the Air Force.

If I graduated medical school without doing a military contract, and decided to do a GMO tour (flight surgeon) would the navy allow me to sign on for only two years and then not be obligated for further duty after my 2 year tour is up? Would I still be able to do a GMO tour for flight surgery if I did FAP and did a residency in Internal Medicine, Neurology or Anesthesiology?

I appreciate any feedback and input, thank you!

 

[bluebird123]

Thanks for the responses, I greatly appreciated them.

If I did a 3 year HPSP, I would have to conduct 1 year of Navy internship, then I would go on a 2 year Flight Surgeon tour? Or would the 1 year internship not count toward my payback for HPSP and be turned into a 3 year Flight Surgeon tour?

Does the Air Force also require a year of internship before becoming a flight surgeon? I have heard that Navy flight surgeons who are doing GMOs actually get stick time because they go to flight training for six months and fly 4 hours every month. Is the same true for the Air Force, because I have heard you have do to a flight medicine residency in order to be able to fly as a flight surgeon in the Air Force.

If I graduated medical school without doing a military contract, and decided to do a GMO tour (flight surgeon) would the navy allow me to sign on for only two years and then not be obligated for further duty after my 2 year tour is up? Would I still be able to do a GMO tour for flight surgery if I did FAP and did a residency in Internal Medicine, Neurology or Anesthesiology?

I appreciate any feedback and input, thank you!

Here's my understanding, based on reading the contract very carefully.

Internship/residency does NOT count towards your active duty obligation (ADO), so it would be one year of residency plus three years as a flight surgeon.

The AF also requires a one year internship before going into flight surgery. In the AF, you get to fly in the back seat of your unit's airframe, provided that it has a back seat (no solo flight). You are NOT a fully qualified pilot and so do not ever fly solo, etc. Depending on the unit to which you are assigned, your flight time might be flying the pattern in a refueling tanker, sitting in the back of a fighter jet, or flying as a passenger on actual combat sorties. Everyone does aerospace medicine between year 1 and two of med school in the Air Force, according to the recruiter.

I'm afraid I can't really speak to your last question. As I understand it, in the AF the minimum service commitment for FAP is four years. Because Flight Med is considered primary care, I believe they would let you do flight med after completing a different residency in the civilian world, but that would be something to discuss with a recruiter. If you go the gas route, though, expect to be in an anesthesiology role and deploying a LOT because those guys are in high demand in the field.

Hope that helps.

 

[Osteo4life]

Is it possible through the AF AMP program, which will be conducted after completing an internship, to become a Flight Surgeon who actually can fly in the second seat and get stick time just like the Navy flight surgeons who go down to pensacola for real flight training. Also what kind of billets do AF flight surgeons get compared to Navy flight surgeons. The AF has a lot of cargo planes and single seat jets (F-22 and F-35 are both single seat) so I am guessing if some one gets assigned to a fighter squadron then they clock in their flight hours by flight other aircraft in another squadron or do they not fly at all? In the Navy would a flight surgeon be on a carrier or a naval port with an air strip? Also what are the odds of getting an actual fight squadron assignment in each branch, the AF and Navy.

Thank you all for your previous responses.

 

[bluebird123]

You are getting beyond my area of expertise now. AMP is not a program I am familiar with.

Keep in mind that "real flight training" is relative. Yes, you get training, you get to fly, you get "stick time," but you are NOT a pilot as a flight surgeon. You get some hours in, but nowhere near enough to be a pilot. As far as I know, that goes for all branches. Don't count on getting to fly fighter jets as a flight doc - you will almost certainly be disappointed.

It sounds like you need to have a detailed conversation with some recruiters at this point and get some additional facts.

 

[AF M4]

Is it possible through the AF AMP program, which will be conducted after completing an internship, to become a Flight Surgeon who actually can fly in the second seat and get stick time just like the Navy flight surgeons who go down to pensacola for real flight training. Also what kind of billets do AF flight surgeons get compared to Navy flight surgeons. The AF has a lot of cargo planes and single seat jets (F-22 and F-35 are both single seat) so I am guessing if some one gets assigned to a fighter squadron then they clock in their flight hours by flight other aircraft in another squadron or do they not fly at all? In the Navy would a flight surgeon be on a carrier or a naval port with an air strip? Also what are the odds of getting an actual fight squadron assignment in each branch, the AF and Navy.

Thank you all for your previous responses.

Nope, nothing like that available in the Air Force.

There are "pilot-physicians." How to become one? First go through the training pipeline for regular pilots, be a pilot for a few years, then convince the AF to let you go to med school and be a doctor.

This is not a combined program or anything formal however.

 

[bluebird123]

My understanding was that the pilot-physician program had been discontinued, and that there were only ever about 10 of them nation-wide at a time, but I could be mistaken.

 

[Osteo4life]

I am not interested in the pilot physicians program.

So to my understanding from the posts above is that an AMP training in the AF to become a flight surgeon results in NO flying (as second seat) and basically staying on the ground to do preventative and family medicine.

Don't flight surgeons in the navy get stick time as second seat in fighter jets since all the marine navy air squadrons are either F/A-18s or harriers?

Thanks again for the responses.

 

[bluebird123]

Read this:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=196569

Flight surgery in the AF is internal med for aircrew, with some stick time and back seat time mixed in to make sure you really understand the unique pressures your patients are under. According to my husband (an AF aviator), all AF flight docs are required to fly at least four hours per month, but can fly more if they want to and if the unit and airframe are amenable to it. According to my sources, that is more or less the same across all services.

"Training varies depending on the branch of service. In the U.S. Air Force, most flight surgeons have received initial training in the form of the Aerospace Medicine Primary (AMP) course, an eight week training program that involves aeromedical topics as well as aircrew and survival training. Some flight surgeons ultimately move on to the Residency in Aerospace Medicine (RAM), a three year program involving a Master of Public Health, a year of aerospace medical training, and a year of either occupational or preventive medical training. Graduates of the RAM are eligible to be double-boarded in Aerospace Medicine and either Occupational or Preventive Medicine, and are generally assigned to supervise other flight surgeons or medical units. The RAM also involves Medical Officer Flight Familiarization Training (MOFFT), during which the flight surgeon receives abbreviated ground school and some basic pilot training. Consequently, a RAM has some actual piloting experience and some training toward initial qualification, although the rating of pilot is not awarded. In the U.S. Navy, initial flight surgeon training is significantly longer and involves a version of MOFFT, so that all Navy flight surgeons have some formal pilot training. Navy flight surgeons may also attend a three year RAM training program that is distinct from the Air Force program. The U.S. Army, which has more Flight Surgeons than the Air Force, has a combined training program. Most Army Flight Surgeons graduate from a basic course of 7 weeks taught at the US Army School of Aviation Medicine (Fort Rucker, Alabama), and are then assigned to their units. After some experience in the field, Army physicians are then eligible to participate in a RAM program as described above-- In the past, most Army RAMs have participated in the USAF program, but currently most take part in the USN program, while a few study in the only US civilian RAM program, at Wright State University. RAM training is the equivalent of other specialty residency training in the US, and a graduate of the program can take board certification tests and is then considered a fully-fledged specialist. The training requirements in other nations than the US are different-- for example, in the United Kingdom, Aviation Medicine is considered a sub-specialty of Occupational Medicine rather than a fully separate specialty. Thus, UK specialists in Aviation Medicine are usually required to be specialists in Occupational Medicine before undertaking the specialised training in Aviation Medicine." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_surgeon)

I hate to break it to you, but Navy aviation isn't all fighters, either. The Navy still has heavies, and you might be assigned to an aerial recon, logistics, helos, etc. For a list of Navy aviation units and corresponding airframes, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Navy_aircraft_squadrons#Types_of_squadrons

 

[eagledriver]

My understanding was that the pilot-physician program had been discontinued, and that there were only ever about 10 of them nation-wide at a time, but I could be mistaken.

Not discontinued, as this is how I was able to convince the Air Force to let me go to med school (in addition to begging, pleading, and bribes). About 10 is about right though.

 

[dillydally]

I decided the navy is not for me because of the GMO thing. Thus, I started talking to an army recruiter, and I'm actually fairly excited about the army.

However, the army recruiter told me not to apply unless I'm 100% certain I want to join. She said that, in the army, commissioning happens immediately after you receive the scholarship. The board meets once a month. If I were to get everything in for the March boards, she said I would be automatically accepted because of my GPA/MCAT. She said this meant I would be required to be commissioned as an officer at the end of March. That would, of course, mean I couldn't back out of the military if I got accepted to Mayo/Baylor.

Right now I'm basically waiting on my application because it appears that, in my case, applying for the HPSP will lead to a commitment extremely fast.

Comments/suggestions?

 

[bluebird123]

Keep in mind that each branch has its own distinct culture.

Before choosing a different branch, I would recommend talking to several members of your new intended branch. If you can, go on base and watch the people, see how they interact. Some of what is said about the different branches is simply stereotyping, but I have friends who have served in more than one branch and told me about some of the differences they found.

 

[Osteo4life]

I am trying to decide between AF or Navy, I am waiting to talk to an AF recruiter, but I want to be in an branch that will allow me to be a flight surgeon for sure not send me to the ground in Afghanistan and/or Iraq and tell me to work in a Army/Marine hospital where I will have to dispatch with units in combat. I have heard of M.D.s in the Navy going with special forces and SEALs into combat as part of their GMO tour, and even Marines, but that is not of interest to me, but I think I will have a stronger chance of seeing ground action with the Navy than the AF, but the AF has a growing ground force unit that probably is going to need some M.D.s on the ground. I want to serve, but I also want to fly. Is there some kind of signed contract I could make that will make sure I get a flight surgeon billet? Are there any doctors out there who have deployed with units into combat, I mean legit real combat like going on patrol where people have come under fire? Are there any AF flight surgeons or Navy flight surgeons, I would LOVE for your to describe your tours of duty and what kinds of stuff you did.

Thank you for any responses or helpful information, I appreciate it.

 

[NavyFP]

I am trying to decide between AF or Navy, I am waiting to talk to an AF recruiter, but I want to be in an branch that will allow me to be a flight surgeon for sure not send me to the ground in Afghanistan and/or Iraq and tell me to work in a Army/Marine hospital where I will have to dispatch with units in combat. I have heard of M.D.s in the Navy going with special forces and SEALs into combat as part of their GMO tour, and even Marines, but that is not of interest to me, but I think I will have a stronger chance of seeing ground action with the Navy than the AF, but the AF has a growing ground force unit that probably is going to need some M.D.s on the ground. I want to serve, but I also want to fly. Is there some kind of signed contract I could make that will make sure I get a flight surgeon billet? Are there any doctors out there who have deployed with units into combat, I mean legit real combat like going on patrol where people have come under fire? Are there any AF flight surgeons or Navy flight surgeons, I would LOVE for your to describe your tours of duty and what kinds of stuff you did.

Thank you for any responses or helpful information, I appreciate it.

OK, you say you do not want to be with a Ground Combat Element, but are asking about docs going on patrols.....

In my units, the Battalion Surgeons will occasionally come under incidental fire. Meaning they are traveling with convoys to and from smaller bases and the convoy is attacked. They will not (and if they do I will have a large piece of their backside) go on actual foot patrols. Doctors are a rare commodity and not easily replaced. If they happen to be injured I have a hole that could take 3 months or longer to fill. I have Corpsman to go on the patrols. I have heard Army is different(although it shouldn't be), but this is how we do it with the Marines.

There are flight surgeons assigned to Marine aviation units, so being a Navy Flight Surgeon could mean assignment to a real combat zone. Some of where you end up is luck of the draw and who wants what.