Is applying to 6 programs way too low no matter how strong the applicant?

[chajjohnson]

Hey everyone,

So I'm an MS4 applying psych. My step 1 is 259, all honors in pre-clinical classes, lots of honors years 3/4 including all my psych rotations and electives, junior AOA, lots of research pubs (mostly pre-med stuff but some in med school). I also have a pretty good relationship with my home program (my 1st choice) and I've worked on research and gotten a LOR from the program director. I'm very geographically limited as my wife is in grad school in the same city my med school is in so I would really like to get my home program or at least something nearby. There are 5 other programs I would consider geographically close enough to me, most of which are mid-to-high tier programs. I asked my program director how many programs I should apply to and she said these 6 would probably be enough. However, everyone else I know applying psych and everyone on the forums say they are applying to at least double that amount. Is 6 programs way too low even for how strong my application is? I checked the 2016 NRMP data and saw no one who applied psych with a >250 step or AOA failed to match that year. Thanks for any input.

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[FlowRate]

You should be fine with 6 interviews. Might want to add 2-4 relative safeties until it's confirmed that you have interviews at all of your choice programs. IIRC 8 ranks is the point of diminishing returns in psychiatry.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

You have to majorly f up to not match, especially if your home program likes you, and you want to stay. 6 is fine

 

[bashir]

If I'm understanding you correctly, the program director at your home program, where you'd like to stay, wrote you a LOR and is not encouraging you to apply more broadly when directly asked. Unless they are just a mean person or I'm missing something here, I think that's a pretty clear sign they intend to rank you to match. I guess you could always blow the interview, but even then I'd think they'd be likely to overlook that if they know you well. Do the residents at your home program like you reasonably well. Some programs put a fair amount of weight on that. It's the only thing I can really think of that might interfere with matching at your home program, with the information you provided. That, or a bias against home grown students, which I guess happens at some programs particularly when many students want to stay and the PD wants a diverse class.

 

[bashir]

Not sure if my n=1 will reassure you at all, but I was a much weaker candidate than you, and interviewed at only 5 programs (applied to a few more but cancelled the interviews once I had a few under my belt). For geographic reasons I also needed to match at my home program, admittedly not the most competitive, and I did. For your own peace of mind it might not be a bad idea to apply to a few more in case you don't get offered interviews at all 6, but it's probably not necessary. So if you don't have anxiety driving you to do so, I say go forward with confidence and congratulate yourself on not wasting the time of programs you're not at all interested in.

 

[Bartelby]

Even without knowing the whole picture, I can say you stand a very good chance of matching with your plan. Personally I would feel more comfortable adding a couple of extra programs to the list, but it's very unlikely that would make a difference. You also have to consider whether not matching this year would be better than matching outside of your preferred city.

In short, I'd say go with your plan or at most add a couple more.

 

[Psychotic]

There are only 6 programs you deem worthy? Are you trying to set some sort of record, or are you looking for bragging rights?

Ehh, dumber things have been done and it worked out ok, but I think you are nutz.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

There are only 6 programs you deem worthy? Are you trying to set some sort of record, or are you looking for bragging rights?

Ehh, dumber things have been done and it worked out ok, but I think you are nutz.

Really? Did you read his post, specifically "I'm very geographically limited as my wife is in grad school in the same city my med school is in so I would really like to get my home program or at least something nearby. There are 5 other programs I would consider geographically close enough to me, most of which are mid-to-high tier programs."?

 

[Psychotic]

Really? Did you read his post, specifically "I'm very geographically limited as my wife is in grad school in the same city my med school is in so I would really like to get my home program or at least something nearby. There are 5 other programs I would consider geographically close enough to me, most of which are mid-to-high tier programs."?

Yes, "really."

How long is she in grad school? How long would they be apart if he had to move away for a program?

Better safe than sorry. I refuse to endorse applying to just 6 programs for anyone, regardless their circumstances. This is a critical juncture in every med student's career. Maybe he should also apply to IM and FM programs as backups in the limited geog area?

 

[ExcaliburPrime1]

Not sure if you're just trying to brag (mission accomplished!) or are simply generally anxious and in need for reassurance. If the latter, I shall provide it.

Your credentials are stellar and your home program likes you. That's it. You're done. Why waste your time and everyone else's interviewing elsewhere, particularly if your home program is your first choice. You put in the hard work before and now you can have a short sigh of relief until intern year starts. Good luck.

 

[deleted736562]

Not sure if you're just trying to brag (mission accomplished!) or are simply generally anxious and in need for reassurance. If the latter, I shall provide it.

Your credentials are stellar and your home program likes you. That's it. You're done. Why waste your time and everyone else's interviewing elsewhere, particularly if your home program is your first choice. You put in the hard work before and now you can have a short sigh of relief until intern year starts. Good luck.

Sorry but.... weirder things have happened in the application season. Unless it's a written promise that they will match you, I would take nothing for granted. Things might happen, and it's possible that they MIGHT be conveying a different feel than what they really do feel or the OP is picking up different vibes. This does not seem the case with the OP, but I would not take a risk.

I'm with @Psychotic on this one. Why take a risk in the most critical step of any doctor's career? Applying to at least 10-12 will not hurt.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Sorry but.... weirder things have happened in the application season. Unless it's a written promise that they will match you, I would take nothing for granted. Things might happen, and it's possible that they MIGHT be conveying a different feel than what they really do feel or the OP is picking up different vibes. This does not seem the case with the OP, but I would not take a risk.

I'm with @Psychotic on this one. Why take a risk in the most critical step of any doctor's career? Applying to at least 10-12 will not hurt.

If nothing else it lets you see a bit of what's similar and different between programs.

 

[ExcaliburPrime1]

Sorry but.... weirder things have happened in the application season. Unless it's a written promise that they will match you, I would take nothing for granted. Things might happen, and it's possible that they MIGHT be conveying a different feel than what they really do feel or the OP is picking up different vibes. This does not seem the case with the OP, but I would not take a risk.

I'm with @Psychotic on this one. Why take a risk in the most critical step of any doctor's career? Applying to at least 10-12 will not hurt.

I think the risk is exceedingly low, but it's not in my career on the line!

 

[675015]

Why take a risk in the most critical step of any doctor's career? Applying to at least 10-12 will not hurt.

Its a matter of where you are comfortable with risk. Its the attitude of "I want the lowest possible risk of not matching" that is leading everyone to apply to way too many programs. Also, with that logic why not just apply to every single program?

Besides, he does not want to be away from his wife. Who's to say that going to a program away from his family and support and being miserable wouldn't be a huge mistake at "the most critical step" of his career?

 

[FlowRate]

Its a matter of where you are comfortable with risk. Its the attitude of "I want the lowest possible risk of not matching" that is leading everyone to apply to way too many programs. Also, with that logic why not just apply to every single program?

Besides, he does not want to be away from his wife. Who's to say that going to a program away from his family and support and being miserable wouldn't be a huge mistake at "the most critical step" of his career?

P.1 Because most people aren't marginal applicants. They are maximizing their (population level) chances of matching at about 8-10 ranks. There's also a cost to applying to all of the programs. A cost that's likely greater than the marginal benefits for adding the 101st program.

P.2 I don't know that OP would agree that not matching and being close to his wife is better than matching somewhere far-ish away.

 

[deleted736562]

Its a matter of where you are comfortable with risk. Its the attitude of "I want the lowest possible risk of not matching" that is leading everyone to apply to way too many programs. Also, with that logic why not just apply to every single program?

Besides, he does not want to be away from his wife. Who's to say that going to a program away from his family and support and being miserable wouldn't be a huge mistake at "the most critical step" of his career?

I don't think the advice is to apply for 30 programs in his case. Yes, there's a point of inflection when downsizing the risk is not worth it, but it's not at 6 programs. Bottom point is, don't ever hedge your funds on a couple of programs, regardless of the "impression" you have. It's also very bad attitude to enter the application cycle while taking things for granted, even if your application is stellar. Now, if he prefers not to match at all rather than match in those programs in his geographical area, then this is a different story, but that's not something implied in the OP.

 

[SourceOfDenial]

I saw in a similar boat...planned to stay at my home institution. I applied to 10 programs, 9 interviews, went on 6. Interviewed at the places nearest my home institution and a few fancier named programs to see what they were like.

Applied for 10 because after that the price went up.

Unless you're a miserable person, you're fine with 6.

 

[Psychotic]

Unless you're a miserable person, you're fine with 6.

Fine with 6 interviews, or 6 apps? 6 apps don' necessarily mean 6 interviews.

Clearly the OP assumes he will be granted interviews at the 6 programs, but what if one or more pass on his app? Not because he isn't great on paper, but they don't see him as a likely matriculant.

Hell, it happened to me - I was turned down for interviews at multiple programs where my "stats" were stellar in comparison with the average resident in the program...stranger things happen in the app cycle and match than many people realize. Not a time to limit your options.

 

[SourceOfDenial]

Fine with 6 interviews, or 6 apps? 6 apps don' necessarily mean 6 interviews.

Clearly the OP assumes he will be granted interviews at the 6 programs, but what if one or more pass on his app? Not because he isn't great on paper, but they don't see him as a likely matriculant.

Hell, it happened to me - I was turned down for interviews at multiple programs where my "stats" were stellar in comparison with the average resident in the program...stranger things happen in the app cycle and match than many people realize. Not a time to limit your options.

Assuming he's told the PD he wants to stay, I would take her advice and apply to the six. Makes everyone's job easier to know you have strong candidates sticking around for residency.

I'm a betting man...shall we put a wager on it?

Edit: if the price is still the same to apply to 10 as it is for 6, might as well use the other spots.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

Fine with 6 interviews, or 6 apps? 6 apps don' necessarily mean 6 interviews.

Clearly the OP assumes he will be granted interviews at the 6 programs, but what if one or more pass on his app? Not because he isn't great on paper, but they don't see him as a likely matriculant.

Hell, it happened to me - I was turned down for interviews at multiple programs where my "stats" were stellar in comparison with the average resident in the program...stranger things happen in the app cycle and match than many people realize. Not a time to limit your options.

If your personal statement had the same tone/sensibility as your posts on this thread... well, res ipsa loquitur

 

[Psychotic]

If your personal statement had the same tone/sensibility as your posts on this thread... well, res ipsa loquitur

Why are you so ill at ease that someone has a differing opinion? To the point you make it a personal attack?

Grow up.

 

[deleted736562]

Assuming he's told the PD he wants to stay, I would take her advice and apply to the six. Makes everyone's job easier to know you have strong candidates sticking around for residency.

I'm a betting man...shall we put a wager on it?

Edit: if the price is still the same to apply to 10 as it is for 6, might as well use the other spots.

Thing is, residency administrators dish up advice all the time to apply to a very few number of programs. They also have their own interests in mind: the lesser the number of applications for them, the better. Anything below 10 applications is "taking a risk". I don't care about the circumstances or what promises are made. This is not really a time for any sort of risk taking imo.

 

[hello1234!]

I would take everything your home PD said about u getting into your home program with a grain of salt. They are not allowed to tell u if they are going to rank you to match and they are may just giving you generic advice for someone with your scores.

 

[splik]

I would take everything your home PD said about u getting into your home program with a grain of salt. They are not allowed to tell u if they are going to rank you to match and they are may just giving you generic advice for someone with your scores.

They are absolutely allowed to tell you how they intent to rank you (whether you can believe that is another question), just as applicants are free to tell programs how they intend to rank them. You just cannot ask them to tell you, and then cannot ask you how you intend to rank them.

 

[hello1234!]

They are absolutely allowed to tell you how they intent to rank you (whether you can believe that is another question), just as applicants are free to tell programs how they intend to rank them. You just cannot ask them to tell you, and then cannot ask you how you intend to rank them.

Interesting, I have had a wrong understanding about this for a long time then

 

[raisinbrain]

My understanding is also that they're allowed to tell you whatever they want, but that nothing is set in stone until rank order lists are in. That, and several PD's no longer feel comfortable giving out any sort of inkling / information on rank type stuff because they don't want someone to misinterpret it and then hold it against them when they don't match there.

 

[clausewitz2]

If your personal statement had the same tone/sensibility as your posts on this thread... well, res ipsa loquitur

I respect your knowledge and am very glad that you regularly contribute to this board, but dude, you have to have the scintilla of self-awareness to realize you are not the guy to be lecturing anyone about tone.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

Haha come on... when Al Gore invented the internet the logical conclusion was the primacy of trolling

But anyway back to the original topic. Another caveat is that med school admins at established US MD schools put pressure on PDs (especially in the lower competitiveness specialties) to ensure the students match.

And that means if a med student at a solid US MD program doesn't match psych, even at his/her own program, especially if he/she wanted to match there (YES I KNOW THIS HAPPENS BTW) the PD is gonna get heat from the dept chair/dean of students/etc

 

[clausewitz2]

Haha come on... when Al Gore invented the internet the logical conclusion was the primacy of trolling

But anyway back to the original topic. Another caveat is that med school admins at established US MD schools put pressure on PDs (especially in the lower competitiveness specialties) to ensure the students match.

And that means if a med student at a solid US MD program doesn't match psych, even at his/her own program, especially if he/she wanted to match there (YES I KNOW THIS HAPPENS BTW) the PD is gonna get heat from the dept chair/dean of students/etc

So true. My school's program organized a special interview day just for applicants from the school.

The interviews went like this:

"Well you'll match here if nowhere else. Seen any good movies lately?"

 

[Amygdarya]

So true. My school's program organized a special interview day just for applicants from the school.

The interviews went like this:

"Well you'll match here if nowhere else. Seen any good movies lately?"

Haha nice.
Unfortunately, sometimes there are more applicants from a school than residency spots at their home program (I know at least two cases like this this year, including my home program.)

 

[raisinbrain]

Though I'd imagine not every applicant from that institution is ranking their home program first (unless there's some magical amazing program I'm not aware of!)

 

[Amygdarya]

Though I'd imagine not every applicant from that institution is ranking their home program first (unless there's some magical amazing program I'm not aware of!)

I agree. Even though the two programs I'm talking about are some of the most prestigious/competitive in psychiatry, some of the corresponding medical school graduates may choose to rank other programs higher because of a better fit etc. Still, it was implied above that graduates from a certain school were assured they would match at their program if nowhere else, while we don't have this reassurance.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

I agree. Even though the two programs I'm talking about are some of the most prestigious/competitive in psychiatry, some of the corresponding medical school graduates may choose to rank other programs higher because of a better fit etc. Still, it was implied above that graduates from a certain school were assured they would match at their program if nowhere else, while we don't have this reassurance.

True, but someone graduating from Harvard, Columbia, UCLA, UCSF, or Yale (just thinking of competitive programs from elite med schools) should be able to match at least *somewhere* even if they were less than stellar students, just by virtue of the name of the med school... like the student would REALLY have to f up multiple times in multiple different ways to not match at all- simply because if a lower tier program can say "we have a resident from a top 5 med school" thats a huge W on paper. If a graduate of said medical school fails to match psych, someone is going to get heat anyway (and it's usually the PD because he/she is typically the 4th year med students' advisor). However, in programs that are less competitive, the expectation is (generally) that the PD should rank home applicants in a position to match (though again if there are too many home applicants who want to stay or there is a really bad home applicant then more discretion is involved).

 

[OldPsychDoc]

True, but someone graduating from Harvard, Columbia, UCLA, UCSF, or Yale (just thinking of competitive programs from elite med schools) should be able to match at least *somewhere* even if they were less than stellar students, just by virtue of the name of the med school... like the student would REALLY have to f up multiple times in multiple different ways to not match at all- simply because if a lower tier program can say "we have a resident from a top 5 med school" thats a huge W on paper.

If a "Top 5" (whatever that means) med grad has f'd up that many times it's no "W" for anyone.
No one cares about "on paper"--especially if you get a problem resident.
This "name" $h1T is vastly over-rated.

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

If a "Top 5" (whatever that means) med grad has f'd up that many times it's no "W" for anyone.
No one cares about "on paper"--especially if you get a problem resident.
This "name" $h1T is vastly over-rated.

Agreed 100% but there are bad applicants from top Med schools who will get interviews just by virtue of the med school. Obviously it's not in the program's best interest to rank an applicant with continuous red flags but it happens... in other specialties too (numerous stories of problem residents who were probably great on paperin the surgical specialties at my hospital- a top 10 Med school with top 5-10 surgical specialty depts)

 

[Amygdarya]

True, but someone graduating from Harvard, Columbia, UCLA, UCSF, or Yale (just thinking of competitive programs from elite med schools) should be able to match at least *somewhere* even if they were less than stellar students, just by virtue of the name of the med school... like the student would REALLY have to f up multiple times in multiple different ways to not match at all- simply because if a lower tier program can say "we have a resident from a top 5 med school" thats a huge W on paper. If a graduate of said medical school fails to match psych, someone is going to get heat anyway (and it's usually the PD because he/she is typically the 4th year med students' advisor). However, in programs that are less competitive, the expectation is (generally) that the PD should rank home applicants in a position to match (though again if there are too many home applicants who want to stay or there is a really bad home applicant then more discretion is involved).

In case of psychiatry specifically (unlike some other specialties I know of), our home program PD is not involved in advising students going into the specialty at all. (We do have other good advisors familiar with the resident selection process.) I guess the PD's non-involvement with students applying to psychiatry (aside from occasionally being their attending) decreases the positive bias toward home school graduates and makes the application process more fair for everyone, which seems ethically sound to me.

Regarding "lower tier" programs, I know that many of them simply won't waste their limited interview spots on applicants from "name" schools because of the presumption that these applicants aren't likely to rank the program highly, so they would rather interview applicants in their target range.

I apologize for hijacking the thread. The situation I'm discussing is very different from that of OP's.

 

[Psychotic]

Regarding "lower tier" programs, I know that many of them simply won't waste their limited interview spots on applicants from "name" schools because of the presumption that these applicants aren't likely to rank the program highly, so they would rather interview applicants in their target range.

I mentioned this in a prior post - it happened to me. I went to a "name" med school, and for geographic reasons, I applied to some mid/lower tier programs that did not offer me invites. It happens a lot.

This thread has drifted away from the OP's question and quite a bit into hypotheticals, but the take away to all applicants reading this thread should be to apply to enough programs to ensure you attend enough interviews and have enough programs to rank to avoid the dreaded "no match." What is "enough"? Well, 6 apps is quite low and likely not enough for most applicants as far as the match statistics go. Is 6 interviews enough for most applicants? Maybe, if you rank all 6, but 8 to 10 interviews would remove even more risk from the process and even allow for you to not rank a program or two that you would not want to attend. Six apps leaves no margin for error, for mid tier programs that think you are slumming and not likely to rank them highly enough, or a bad interview day, or discovering your dislike of a program after interviewing, etc.

 

[deleted480308]

Really? Did you read his post, specifically "I'm very geographically limited as my wife is in grad school in the same city my med school is in so I would really like to get my home program or at least something nearby. There are 5 other programs I would consider geographically close enough to me, most of which are mid-to-high tier programs."?

The question isn't do I want to think about moving......the question is what are the programs that i would rather not have a residency than go too

Apply to more than six. You can always rank them accordingly