Is attending a program that is a Candidate for Accreditation safe?

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I have an interview next month at University of Jamestown for their program, but they are still a candidate for accreditation. The first class started in 2013. I know a program has to be accredited for the students to sit on the licensing exam.

There was another thread four years ago covering this topic. From what I understand, if a program gets to the candidate for accreditation stage they most likely will become accredited. Some people recommend against, others for attending such programs; but I know it is ultimately up to each person if they want to take the risk that the program will fail accreditation. I have seen some candidate programs have set up an agreement with an accredited program to transfer the students in the situation of failing to gain accreditation. Even with this information I still have my hesitations.

What do you think of attending a candidate for accreditation program? Are my hesitations unfounded? How many programs have failed to gain accreditation?

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Do you have other options that are sound financially?
 
If I remember correctly, there has never been a program reach candidate stage and then fail to become accredited.
 
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I am currently in a program that is a candidate for accreditation. I am in their second class. I honestly like being in a new program because they really listen to us as students and we have a say in certain aspects of the program. On one hand we are guinea pigs, but on the other hand we are helping to build a successful program. I am getting a wonderful education thus far, so my advice would be to do some research. Our program director successfully started another program that was accredited, so that made me feel a lot more comfortable attending this school.
 
What is your programs length?
I am currently in a program that is a candidate for accreditation. I am in their second class. I honestly like being in a new program because they really listen to us as students and we have a say in certain aspects of the program. On one hand we are guinea pigs, but on the other hand we are helping to build a successful program. I am getting a wonderful education thus far, so my advice would be to do some research. Our program director successfully started another program that was accredited, so that made me feel a lot more comfortable attending this school.
 
We had a director of a new program talk to us about the whole accreditation thing, and as DesertPT said no PT program ever has ever been granted candidacy and NOT become fully accredited...it has to do with CAPTE's rigorous accreditation process, the director was telling us how she had to send like a 1,000 page document detailing every single detail about the new program. They wanted to know where all the money goes, how much money goes toward gauze, what classes's main objective is, equipment, etc. I personally wouldn't mind attending a program that is undergoing accreditation, it would probably be cheaper to attend (??) than fully accredited programs and as long as I felt confident with the faculty/director/program.
 
We had a director of a new program talk to us about the whole accreditation thing, and as DesertPT said no PT program ever has ever been granted candidacy and NOT become fully accredited...it has to do with CAPTE's rigorous accreditation process, the director was telling us how she had to send like a 1,000 page document detailing every single detail about the new program. They wanted to know where all the money goes, how much money goes toward gauze, what classes's main objective is, equipment, etc. I personally wouldn't mind attending a program that is undergoing accreditation, it would probably be cheaper to attend (??) than fully accredited programs and as long as I felt confident with the faculty/director/program.
No I believe they are on the slighty higher end of private school costs... at least West Coast and SDSU are...they cost the same as the other private schools in the area (Western)

~120K for tuition alone
 
I have an interview next month at University of Jamestown for their program, but they are still a candidate for accreditation. The first class started in 2013. I know a program has to be accredited for the students to sit on the licensing exam.

There was another thread four years ago covering this topic. From what I understand, if a program gets to the candidate for accreditation stage they most likely will become accredited. Some people recommend against, others for attending such programs; but I know it is ultimately up to each person if they want to take the risk that the program will fail accreditation. I have seen some candidate programs have set up an agreement with an accredited program to transfer the students in the situation of failing to gain accreditation. Even with this information I still have my hesitations.

What do you think of attending a candidate for accreditation program? Are my hesitations unfounded? How many programs have failed to gain accreditation?

Stay away from the University of Jamestown. Professors micromanage your life, among other things, plus Fargo is absolutely the worst place to live in the U.S. This city seems to be an attraction for lots of unintelligent, close-minded people.
 
Stay away from the University of Jamestown. Professors micromanage your life, among other things, plus Fargo is absolutely the worst place to live in the U.S. This city seems to be an attraction for lots of unintelligent, close-minded people.

Ooooohhhh, I like gossip. Do tell us more...
 
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Stay away from the University of Jamestown. Professors micromanage your life, among other things, plus Fargo is absolutely the worst place to live in the U.S. This city seems to be an attraction for lots of unintelligent, close-minded people.

I attend the University of Jamestown Physical Therapy Program as well. I would like to kindly ask you to re-think your posts on this forum. I disagree that Fargo is the worst place to live in the U.S. I believe it is actually an excellent place to attend undergraduate or graduate school. Although the weather may be cold, Fargo is a warm community. There are countless opportunities for students to build their career and thrive as young professionals. If you have only met unintelligent, close-minded people in Fargo, I don't think you are looking in the right places. The professors in our program are working very hard to educate future physical therapists AND also creating a lasting program that contributes to the community. The program has already reached out to several organizations in the community. As a student in the Class of 2016, I will be proud to graduate from the inaugural class of the DPT program. I respect that your opinion is your own, but please also respect the institution you are attending.
 
I would e-mail somebody from the program, and ask what their expected graduation rate is for the first class
 
Personally, I don't think CAPTE's accreditation process is that rigorous if a 2-year online program like South College can get accredited.

As for the University of Jamestown, formerly known as Jamestown College:
http://www.studentsreview.com/ND/Jamestown_College.html
This capte process is quite rigorous and in depth. The process is fair and comprehensive and capte has a responsibility to the public, profession, program, and the students. I am quite impressed by the process and the quality of the capte review teams and the council. CAPTE ensures that students have their needs met by the educational program.
 
This capte process is quite rigorous and in depth. The process is fair and comprehensive and capte has a responsibility to the public, profession, program, and the students. I am quite impressed by the process and the quality of the capte review teams and the council. CAPTE ensures that students have their needs met by the educational program.

Why is there such a disparity in program lengths and how do they ensure cheating doesn't happen with online coursework? In addition to that, why does capte and apta function completely as two separate entities?

If capte has a responsibility to the public and professionals, can you answer those two questions? I must plead complete ignorance on understanding review for accreditation. In addition to this, how does capte ensure that economics will be regulated. Currently, they are in line, however, it would be awful for those behind us to go down the law school or pharmacy path due to a guaranteed government lending system and a lack of aligning numbers with projections. As more schools exist, there is more need for competition for applicants among them. With a larger sample size (n=number of schools here), how can capte make sure that in the future, lower applicant volume schools won't start accepting applicants with questionable gpa, gre, personal statement, and meager experience volunteering? This is sincere inquiry here, and I think strong responses will ease tensions for those entering this community as well as feeling more at ease with the accreditation process and schools undergoing the process.
 
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This capte process is quite rigorous and in depth. The process is fair and comprehensive and capte has a responsibility to the public, profession, program, and the students. I am quite impressed by the process and the quality of the capte review teams and the council. CAPTE ensures that students have their needs met by the educational program.

I think it is a matter of perception. I do not think CAPTE is rigorous or in depth. The criteria are insanely easy to meet for a marginal program. Our last site visit required a lot of compiling papers, but no real stress. The fact that CAPTE is not tempering approving schools for candidacy when this profession does not have enough faculty is dangerous. Too many clinicians are 'teaching' to fill faculty holes. Excellent clinicians perhaps, but it takes more than good clinical decision making skills to guide students with entry-level education.
And the lack of research by faculty is maddening! And CAPTE turns a blind eye. Jim Gordon's McMillan lecture was spot on!
 
Why is there such a disparity in program lengths and how do they ensure cheating doesn't happen with online coursework? In addition to that, why does capte and apta function completely as two separate entities?

The 1st question I cannot answer.
Conflict of interest for the 2nd question. It is a requirement for regional accreditation standards. Regional accreditation is even more important to you as it allows you to get loans.
 
I think it is a matter of perception. I do not think CAPTE is rigorous or in depth. The criteria are insanely easy to meet for a marginal program. Our last site visit required a lot of compiling papers, but no real stress. The fact that CAPTE is not tempering approving schools for candidacy when this profession does not have enough faculty is dangerous. Too many clinicians are 'teaching' to fill faculty holes. Excellent clinicians perhaps, but it takes more than good clinical decision making skills to guide students with entry-level education.
And the lack of research by faculty is maddening! And CAPTE turns a blind eye. Jim Gordon's McMillan lecture was spot on!

Do you have a link?
 
I think it is a matter of perception. I do not think CAPTE is rigorous or in depth. The criteria are insanely easy to meet for a marginal program. Our last site visit required a lot of compiling papers, but no real stress. The fact that CAPTE is not tempering approving schools for candidacy when this profession does not have enough faculty is dangerous. Too many clinicians are 'teaching' to fill faculty holes. Excellent clinicians perhaps, but it takes more than good clinical decision making skills to guide students with entry-level education.
And the lack of research by faculty is maddening! And CAPTE turns a blind eye. Jim Gordon's McMillan lecture was spot on!

1st bold: Is there something that you and other faculty can please do? Obviously, you are just one person. A very helpful person 🙂 but I would think faculty could have a say in ratcheting up accreditation standards? Not sure. APTA consists of physical therapists and faculty. Period (unless I'm totally wrong lol.) Also, what is your view on student involvement in APTA? I have the opportunity, but I don't know if I should take it this year.

This is helping to secure students' futures and preparation for this degree and the pt's skills when healthcare costs are through the roof.

2nd bold: My institution isn't like that. That is incredibly frightening. Are you saying some schools get accreditation and they just rope in adjunct clinicians to teach? That mirrors adjunct at research institutions. You literally have to teach yourself when in that spot. It sucks.

3rd bold: My institution isn't like that again. Are you arguing that the faculty are just teaching without conducting research to help push support for this profession as well as job security?

Right after I applied.......USNEWS popped physical therapy onto the hottest jobs list....literally, it was right after I applied that that happened and it started getting massive appeal. You know what that means. Waves of applicants and new groups that want to start up an accredited school when its hot. Smh.
 
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Do you have a link?
No, but if you Google Jim Gordon APTA McMillan lecture I cannot imagine it would be hard to find. PTJ I think published the transcript, but not 100% certain. I heard it at 2014 NEXT.
 
1st bold: Is there something that you and other faculty can please do? Obviously, you are just one person. A very helpful person 🙂 but I would think faculty could have a say in ratcheting up accreditation standards? Not sure. APTA consists of physical therapists and faculty. Period (unless I'm totally wrong lol.) Also, what is your view on student involvement in APTA? I have the opportunity, but I don't know if I should take it this year.

This is helping to secure students' futures and preparation for this degree and the pt's skills when healthcare costs are through the roof.

2nd bold: My institution isn't like that. That is incredibly frightening. Are you saying some schools get accreditation and they just rope in adjunct clinicians to teach? That mirrors adjunct at research institutions. You literally have to teach yourself when in that spot. It sucks.

3rd bold: My institution isn't like that again. Are you arguing that the faculty are just teaching without conducting research to help push support for this profession as well as job security?

Right after I applied.......USNEWS popped physical therapy onto the hottest jobs list....literally, it was right after I applied that that happened and it started getting massive appeal. You know what that means. Waves of applicants and new groups that want to start up an accredited school when its hot. Smh.

Thanks, but no. I am just one PT. I can provide comment on proposed CAPTE standards when they are reviewed as draft (and I do), but that is all I can do. I am a member like any other PT member. I think student's should be involved in some professional association....APTA is a good one if that is your passion. Other students of mine are in PT school but more passionate about AT, or strength and conditioning, or sports medicine, so I encourage those associations.

There are a great many faculty who are not educated to be independent researchers (like any faculty with a DPT or EdD vs. PhD). The CAPTE standards are VERY easy for institutions to meet in terms of research. But to meet those, faculty are doing sub-standard research studies. For example, we do not need any more reliability studies on the Berg Balance or a small intervention study about x type of exercise for fall prevention. But that is what people are doing because they are easy and get an abstract accepted at an APTA meeting = good enough. Look and see what percent of abstracts from CSM and NEXT got on to get a paper published. This was another PTJ paper, and I think it points to poor standards that cannot withstand peer review for a paper (peer review for an abstract is very different from a journal). This is obviously a passion of mine, and others may very well disagree. But the number of open faculty positions, the length of time it is taking to fill them, the faculty lists available on school's web sites, the low funding for research at most institutions, and the low publication rate of abstracts from CSM and NEXT I think bolsters my opinion.
 
Right after I applied.......USNEWS popped physical therapy onto the hottest jobs list....literally, it was right after I applied that that happened and it started getting massive appeal. You know what that means. Waves of applicants and new groups that want to start up an accredited school when its hot. Smh.

HRSA published the workforce data that showed a surplus of PT by 2025. It is a pdf so just google HRSA physical therapy outlook and you will get the information. The differences n methodology between HRSA and BLS is a bit more complex to uncover, but I think BLS uses job openings, and HRSA uses current positions for simulation.
 
HRSA published the workforce data that showed a surplus of PT by 2025. It is a pdf so just google HRSA physical therapy outlook and you will get the information. The differences n methodology between HRSA and BLS is a bit more complex to uncover, but I think BLS uses job openings, and HRSA uses current positions for simulation.

Assuming that the number they arrive at for "projected supply (minus) projected demand" divided by the "projected supply, 2025" would give you a basic idea of unemployment rates, then the document you cite essentially predicts 7.5% of among PTs and a whopping 17.6% unemployment of OTs in 2025. The same document for pharmacists would predict 13.7% unemployment in 2025, which is a dire job market circumstance we seem to hear a lot about already. The data for PTs would put them at what would likely be just slightly worse than national unemployment rates by 2025, which seems a bit pessimistic but not totally unreasonable. But the number of unemployed OTs seems pretty over the top.

They're predictions for the percentage demand increase for PT and OT are about the same, but they predict the supply of OTs will go up 46% while PTs will go up 33%. Curious indeed.

And as another interesting side note, their reports put unemployment of chiros and podiatrists both at >10%. Optometrists, on the other hand, clock in at only 5% unemployment in 2025. Though if you peruse the pharmacy and optometry forums on this site, both seem equally doom and gloom. Don't know what to make of all this, just presenting some interesting findings.

And I guess I should say that wherever I have used the work "predict" in this post, I should have used the word "project" as the are not the same thing in this context.

I notice that BLS claims that in 2012 there were 113,000 OTs and 204,000 PTs, but HRSA claims that in 2012 there were 86,000 OTs and 191,000 PTs. That seems like a tremendous difference to me. I wonder if they have quite different methodologies for determining current employment or only for projecting future employment.

The HRSA documents also start with the assumption that supply and demand were identical (exactly the same number of workers) which I think is a pretty huge assumption that would make the data for 202 more likely to be pessimistic, as I feel like in 2012 demand for PTs and OTs was still exceeding supply in most parts of the country. We know that the number of people graduating PT school and OT school each year is increasing at a faster rate than the number of job openings is, and that a presumed longstanding shortage in rehab professionals is steadily being caught up with. But if you start your model with the assumption that supply is exactly equal to demand, then it's going to be all down hill from there, starting in 2012, as the number of students increases faster than the number of jobs, but I don't think that really was/is the case.

I think about 3.5% unemployment of PTs in 2025 is probably more realistic than 7.5% personally, but who knows. There are 16 programs in candidacy for accreditation right now, and 10 more in some stage of development. So the number of accredited programs, which is already more than adequate in my opinion is set to increase by ~11.4% in the next 6 or 7 years. By 2025 we should have more than 260 DPT programs, and class sizes at most programs are increasing. Heck, by the time St. Augustine gets its Miami campus going just that school alone will be graduating 500-600 students per year. So who knows.

I still don't think OTs are ever going to face 17.5% unemployment though. I guess you never know for sure, but that just seems crazy.
 
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Assuming that the number they arrive at for "projected supply (minus) projected demand" divided by the "projected supply, 2025" would give you a basic idea of unemployment rates, then the document you cite essentially predicts 7.5% of among PTs and a whopping 17.6% unemployment of OTs in 2025. The same document for pharmacists would predict 13.7% unemployment in 2025, which is a dire job market circumstance we seem to hear a lot about already. The data for PTs would put them at what would likely be just slightly worse than national unemployment rates by 2025, which seems a bit pessimistic but not totally unreasonable. But the number of unemployed OTs seems pretty over the top.

They're predictions for the percentage demand increase for PT and OT are about the same, but they predict the supply of OTs will go up 46% while PTs will go up 33%. Curious indeed.

And as another interesting side note, their reports put unemployment of chiros and podiatrists both at >10%. Optometrists, on the other hand, clock in at only 5% unemployment in 2025. Though if you peruse the pharmacy and optometry forums on this site, both seem equally doom and gloom. Don't know what to make of all this, just presenting some interesting findings.

And I guess I should say that wherever I have used the work "predict" in this post, I should have used the word "project" as the are not the same thing in this context.

I notice that BLS claims that in 2012 there were 113,000 OTs and 204,000 PTs, but HRSA claims that in 2012 there were 86,000 OTs and 191,000 PTs. That seems like a tremendous difference to me. I wonder if they have quite different methodologies for determining current employment or only for projecting future employment.

The HRSA documents also start with the assumption that supply and demand were identical (exactly the same number of workers) which I think is a pretty huge assumption that would make the data for 202 more likely to be pessimistic, as I feel like in 2012 demand for PTs and OTs was still exceeding supply in most parts of the country. We know that the number of people graduating PT school and OT school each year is increasing at a faster rate than the number of job openings is, and that a presumed longstanding shortage in rehab professionals is steadily being caught up with. But if you start your model with the assumption that supply is exactly equal to demand, then it's going to be all down hill from there, starting in 2012, as the number of students increases faster than the number of jobs, but I don't think that really was/is the case.

I think about 3.5% unemployment of PTs in 2025 is probably more realistic than 7.5% personally, but who knows. There are 16 programs in candidacy for accreditation right now, and 10 more in some stage of development. So the number of accredited programs, which is already more than adequate in my opinion is set to increase by ~11.4% in the next 6 or 7 years. By 2025 we should have more than 260 DPT programs, and class sizes at most programs are increasing. Heck, by the time St. Augustine gets its Miami campus going just that school alone will be graduating 500-600 students per year. So who knows.

I still don't think OTs are ever going to face 17.5% unemployment though. I guess you never know for sure, but that just seems crazy.

The economics for now seem fine. These decade projections need to be accounted for with capte and on tightening school standards. Pharm was booming in the early 2000s and subsequently went way downhill post 2010 to a lot of saturation. By 2018 it will be rough from projections I've read.

Personally, I would argue that these trends mirror each other to a degree.....but this current trend doesn't have to go that way. I barely understand how all the national conferences go etc. but I would hope that individuals could discuss this topic in the coming years.

As for law.....my buddy just landed a decent job at 1 yr pregraduation from a paid internship 🙂 LOL. Secure, decent sized firm so always keep optimism even when some numbers look daunting a decade from now...............its a decade from now. -__- (note: I know my anecdote is rosy in this context)
 
I notice that BLS claims that in 2012 there were 113,000 OTs and 204,000 PTs, but HRSA claims that in 2012 there were 86,000 OTs and 191,000 PTs. That seems like a tremendous difference to me. I wonder if they have quite different methodologies for determining current employment or only for projecting future employment.

My understanding from a conversation I had with someone who works on the methodology the APTA workforce study is that BLS uses positions, and not people, whereas HRSA uses people. So that may account for the differences in numbers. But I have not looked into that on my own. But it makes sense that there would be more positions than people, so maybe that is it? APTA seems to quote HRSA more than BLS, so may be their bias as well. I truly do not know, but interesting nonetheless.

I do not know about OT, so it would be unfair for me to speak to OT. But I know at least among the PTs I know, we pretty much think we are hitting a tipping point. One of my buddies recently said, 'It is like 1997 all over again,' which would be most unfortunate. But I guess compared with what I hear about unemployment in professions across the country, PT has a ways to go.
 
The economics for now seem fine. These decade projections need to be accounted for with capte and on tightening school standards.

Could not agree more. I just do not believe they are or will do so.
 
I just do not believe they are or will do so.

Nope, not a chance. The accreditation standards are black and white and anyone with the determination to open up a PT school to make a buck is free to do so and will almost always succeed as long as their financial backing is secure. The over-proliferation of small, non-research focused private health professions schools has happened to the detrement of many other health professions, and PT certainly will not be immune. I wish we could actually follow Dr. Gordon's advice, close about half of the PT schools (small schools with no research output), double the class sizes (and faculty sizes) at PT schools that are housed at real research universities, and then not open any more schools for a good 10 or 12 years. Everyone can see how this would be best for the profession, but everyone also wants to make money. And so on the $120k+ DPT tuition gravy train rolls.
 
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Why is there such a disparity in program lengths and how do they ensure cheating doesn't happen with online coursework? In addition to that, why does capte and apta function completely as two separate entities?

If capte has a responsibility to the public and professionals, can you answer those two questions? I must plead complete ignorance on understanding review for accreditation. In addition to this, how does capte ensure that economics will be regulated. Currently, they are in line, however, it would be awful for those behind us to go down the law school or pharmacy path due to a guaranteed government lending system and a lack of aligning numbers with projections. As more schools exist, there is more need for competition for applicants among them. With a larger sample size (n=number of schools here), how can capte make sure that in the future, lower applicant volume schools won't start accepting applicants with questionable gpa, gre, personal statement, and meager experience volunteering? This is sincere inquiry here, and I think strong responses will ease tensions for those entering this community as well as feeling more at ease with the accreditation process and schools undergoing the process.

The length of the program is not determined by CAPTE. Accreditation is not a measure of excellence. If the program can meet its expected program outcomes in 30 months, fine, if it needs 36 then fine--CAPTE is concerned with the program meeting its outcomes. It is beyond CAPTE to determine the length of the program. Integrity in online coursework is an inspectable criteria and the faculty must present how they safeguard online coursework.

CAPTE and the APTA function independently. We discussed it at a recent CAPTE workshop at CSM. Think of checks and balances-- like Congress and the Supreme Court. One body writes the laws, the other interprets them--or so they both should. They function independently and that's a good thing. CAPTE accredits the educational process and does not control the growth of programs, that's up to institutions and the market for PT education (prePT students). For example, if APTA policy suggests that we need many more programs, and we subsequently grow those, it may outpace the ability of the profession (ie, faculty) to provide a quality education commensurate with the needs of the public (patients), institutions, students, andCAPTE will, in turn, not accredit those programs. It does happen and CAPTE does publish statistics on programs who do go on probation as well as those who do not get reaccredited. I believe, it also publishes the reasons why those decisions are made--thus, it is a transparent process. These publications are meant to educate the public (institutions, potential students, and the profession) on CAPTE actions. It's not a perfect process, but it is a rigorous and thorough process.
 
The over-proliferation of small, non-research focused private health professions schools has happened to the detrement of many other health professions, and PT certainly will not be immune. I wish we could actually follow Dr. Gordon's advice, close about half of the PT schools (small schools with no research output), double the class sizes (and faculty sizes) at PT schools that are housed at real research universities, and then not open any more schools for a good 10 or 12 years.

Completely agree.

.....Interesting because a while ago when @ptisfun2 made the same suggestion, I was against. Ah, young, misinformed, and quick to throw a conclusion out there. With a new perspective though and more understanding of things, this should happen.
 
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Completely agree.

.....Interesting because a while ago when @ptisfun2 made the same suggestion, I was against. Ah, young, misinformed, and quick to throw a conclusion out there. With a new perspective though and more understanding of things, this should happen.

Sometimes it takes a while to come around to my opinion 🙂

Curious though....what made you re-think this?
 
Sometimes it takes a while to come around to my opinion 🙂

Curious though....what made you re-think this?

Program disparities, unhomogenized timelengths and vast curriculum differences coupled with statistical research showing the benefit of PT as preventative measures in order to decrease healthcare costs in the United States. I think this profession can significantly help the elderly, produce an allied healthcare checks and balances system on the top dog MD/DOs (sprained ankles and some LBP come to private outpatients first for noninvasive correction if possible) while being a good asset to the ACA as it starts to weave its way throughout the healthcare industry. Possibly more respect for inpatient and HH services?

With these things in mind, a massive amount of program disparities is negative for creating a community at large representing values and providing a healthcare service in my opinion. That's what an industry is anyway. A community with some capitalistic competition amongst its members.

Dent institution number is small, vet is small, med accreditation standards are incredibly rigorous. I think research is imperative to the job security of this profession as well as eliminating pseudoscience present in so much healthcare marketing. The amount of non-research universities and the growing number trying to get new accreditation isn't helping that. Oversaturation, money grab start up institutions (which I think manipulate a generation trying to break into careers since education costs are asinine), and poor reimbursement for the services that this practice can provide also come to mind.

Those adjusting laws are also clueless as well. Politicians at the state and national level have NO IDEA what they're doing when voting on healthcare. This makes me think of some of dermviser's comments from allo on the front page actually. He was a long time poster. Program disparity and poor clinician outcomes from those program disparities can hurt us and provide a little bit of information to some politicians adjusting laws for therapy resulting in poor legislative action which can trickle down and affect therapists in hospitals, private clinics, schools, etc. Ever say a new fact to a little kid and see them light up and completely change their thinking? That's how I view some of the political actions I've observed in videos.

My opinions will continually change but that's how I feel right now. I sincerely wish we had many more faculty members on this forum.
 
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Program disparities, unhomogenized timelengths and vast curriculum differences coupled with statistical research showing the benefit of PT as preventative measures in order to decrease healthcare costs in the United States. I think this profession can significantly help the elderly, produce an allied healthcare checks and balances system on the top dog MD/DOs (sprained ankles and some LBP come to private outpatients first for noninvasive correction if possible) while being a good asset to the ACA as it starts to weave its way throughout the healthcare industry. Possibly more respect for inpatient and HH services?

With these things in mind, a massive amount of program disparities is negative for creating a community at large representing values and providing a healthcare service in my opinion. That's what an industry is anyway. A community with some capitalistic competition amongst its members.

Dent institution number is small, vet is small, med accreditation standards are incredibly rigorous. I think research is imperative to the job security of this profession as well as eliminating pseudoscience present in so much healthcare marketing. The amount of non-research universities and the growing number trying to get new accreditation isn't helping that. Oversaturation, money grab start up institutions (which I think manipulate a generation trying to break into careers since education costs are asinine), and poor reimbursement for the services that this practice can provide also come to mind.

Those adjusting laws are also clueless as well. Politicians at the state and national level have NO IDEA what they're doing when voting on healthcare. This makes me think of some of dermviser's comments from allo on the front page actually. He was a long time poster. Program disparity and poor clinician outcomes from those program disparities can hurt us and provide a little bit of information to some politicians adjusting laws for therapy resulting in poor legislative action which can trickle down and affect therapists in hospitals, private clinics, schools, etc. Ever say a new fact to a little kid and see them light up and completely change their thinking? That's how I view some of the political actions I've observed in videos.

My opinions will continually change but that's how I feel right now. I sincerely wish we had many more faculty members on this forum.

ACAPT or CAPTE.. I forget which one (sometimes the acronyms make my eyeballs and ears bleed) made a recommendation or changed minimal standards, respectively to have at least 30 weeks of clinical education.

Your post is interesting....many, many, many, many, many posts on this forum, and others, as well as comments from students and popular media complain about the costs of higher ed. I work at one of the more reasonably priced PT schools in the country, and we hear it from students and prospective students. I can only imagine what private schools hear. So to some extent, I think the decreasing time in school is trying to help with that. And medical school is facing the same issue, which is why there are some pilot projects for 3 year medical school (in my opinion, the AMA has a much stronger hold on schools and also conducts research, and funding is a bit different, so pilot projects like this can occur easier). I understand tuition may not come down (no University will probably allow that...I am not THAT naive), but living expenses and making a salary faster could certainly help with looming student loan debt. In some ways, you can't have it both ways...

Don't get me wrong. I could come up with 20 schools without even thinking that I think should not be giving an entry-level PT degree based on their faculty and research productivity. That is not to say that these faculty are not dedicated practitioners and clinical educators. And I am sure the NPTE pass rates for these schools are acceptable. These schools just aren't moving the profession forward. I heard that Lynn Snyder-Mackler echoed Jim Gordon in this year's McMillan lecture, but I fear some think faculty from USC and Delaware, respectively are in glass houses high atop the mountaintop.

I cannot speak to many of your other comments as it is not be area of research. I know about some of those things only in as much as I have students read articles in research courses, but certainly am ignorant to the body of literature. But the role of PT in health care cost savings is not clear at all. There are a few small studies with some design flaws in them. This is an area of need for the profession, but the dearth of healthcare economists interested in rehab is striking. I think we are making strides though, and the profession is currently supporting more training of PTs to collaborate with this type of work, which is awesome! I could go on, and on, and on with this, but shall end here to limit those that fell asleep or gave up reading my post 🙂
 
post is interesting....many, many, many, many, many posts on this forum, and others, as well as comments from students and popular media complain about the costs of higher ed. I work at one of the more reasonably priced PT schools in the country, and we hear it from students and prospective students

Don't get me wrong......this is completely and totally accurate. Someone just posted a thread on a 40% tuition hike mid program.

So to some extent, I think the decreasing time in school is trying to help with that. And medical school is facing the same issue, which is why there are some pilot projects for 3 year medical school

Hybrid learning models should be able to help with this. I also know tuition is paid to the school for the 4 or so clinicals when the school just sets up the clinical placement and grading metrics. I have parents who did programs where nothing was charged since they were being used as labor while learning. Only expenses were living expenses. These parents also wouldn't get into their respective programs today due to population boom and the elevated competition. If students were paid a min. wage on clinicals to net living expenses as well then that would've been nice as well. Both are unlikely. The price and decreased time in school is being pushed, but its hard to gauge the quality loss.
 
Don't get me wrong......this is completely and totally accurate. Someone just posted a thread on a 40% tuition hike mid program.



Hybrid learning models should be able to help with this. I also know tuition is paid to the school for the 4 or so clinicals when the school just sets up the clinical placement and grading metrics. I have parents who did programs where nothing was charged since they were being used as labor while learning. Only expenses were living expenses. These parents also wouldn't get into their respective programs today due to population boom and the elevated competition. If students were paid a min. wage on clinicals to net living expenses as well then that would've been nice as well. Both are unlikely. The price and decreased time in school is being pushed, but its hard to gauge the quality loss.

I think this is a big student misnomer. Tuition during your rotations covers institution liability (which is separate from your own liability you all buy.. same as when you are a PT), ACCE/DCE(s) salary, travel, and other expenses, legal dept at the Univ to write, review, and renew contracts with sites (some 'closed' programs may have a lower cost for this), etc, etc. And then yes, students are responsible to cover costs for regular University running - Provost, Residency Life, Univ Maintenance, etc, etc. You may think it sucks, but all necessary to keep the University open.
The ACCE/DCE does more than set up clinical placements and grading metrics (I think most schools now use CPI). The ACCE/DCE, in my opinion, has the busiest and most important job in a PT Program. Regular faculty have it easy in comparison. An ACCE/DCE is worth their weight in gold, and students should be responsible for tuition while on rotations.
 
Can you explain this?

Yes. I do not think I am out of line in stating that Univ Del and USC are 2 of the best PT schools in the country (full disclosure: I work at neither, nor was I educated there). Do entry-level students get a higher level education there? I do not know, but the 'best' schools encompass far more than entry-level education. But schools like that have different infrastructure than many other schools. And I think there is a camp who thinks (well, more than I think....this is a common topic with PT education) that people from those 2 schools stating that entry-level education with larger, more research-driven programs is self-serving, and not fully comprehending the scope of what other schools have to offer. Again, this is not my opinion at all, but something stated.
 
I think this is a big student misnomer. Tuition during your rotations covers institution liability (which is separate from your own liability you all buy.. same as when you are a PT), ACCE/DCE(s) salary, travel, and other expenses, legal dept at the Univ to write, review, and renew contracts with sites (some 'closed' programs may have a lower cost for this), etc, etc. And then yes, students are responsible to cover costs for regular University running - Provost, Residency Life, Univ Maintenance, etc, etc. You may think it sucks, but all necessary to keep the University open.
The ACCE/DCE does more than set up clinical placements and grading metrics (I think most schools now use CPI). The ACCE/DCE, in my opinion, has the busiest and most important job in a PT Program. Regular faculty have it easy in comparison. An ACCE/DCE is worth their weight in gold, and students should be responsible for tuition while on rotations.

Mind blown.
 
Fargo has the highest binge-drinking problems in the country according to the CDC. I had a classmate who was bullied by a particular professor and had to confront her situation. Many of the instructors have zero teaching experience...go somewhere else!
 
It may not get accredited. I am supposed to graduate in 2017. This program is actually 90 miles away from their main campus which is in the middle of nowhere North Dakota. The PT program is housed in a strip mall.
 
Many of the instructors have zero teaching experience...go somewhere else!

^Wanted to address this one comment.

@ptisfun2

This program has a ratio of 1:3 PT/PhD to clinical doctorates teaching. Is this type of ratio indicative of what you mean when you say the amount of faculty that don't produce research is maddening? Have you seen worse ratios than this?

From the research output I've seen from the PT/PhDs, Rehab Sc. PhDs, and DPT/PhDs, a faculty ratio like the above looks negative imo. Even just public health policy and regular PhDs that practice in departments at least did extensive research and had dissertations etc.
 
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^Wanted to address this one comment.

@ptisfun2

This program has a ratio of 1:3 PT/PhD to clinical doctorates teaching. Is this type of ratio indicative of what you mean when you say the amount of faculty that don't produce research is maddening? Have you seen worse ratios than this?

From the research output I've seen from the PT/PhDs, Rehab Sc. PhDs, and DPT/PhDs, a faculty ratio like the above looks negative imo. Even just public health policy and regular PhDs that practice in departments at least did extensive research and had dissertations etc.

Yes. As many of you know, the education in a DPT program is insufficient for a person to be an independent researcher. That should be the ONLY purpose of a PhD. I will tread a bit lightly here, and say that the ratio is not the only consideration, but also what the PhD is in (e.g., Biomechanics, Public Health, engineering) as well as the school attended by the PhD holder are also important.
As an example, an old student of mine told me they were interested in a PhD program that could be completed distantly and while still working. I recommended doing PubMed searches for all faculty, asking about faculty funding. I also recommending asking to speak with current students about their publications and how they were funded for their PhD. This young, promising PT decided that this was not the program to allow them to become an independent and productive researcher. If you want to teach only, then an EdD may be a better path I would imagine, although don't know a ton about that degree.

But to advance this profession, my opinion is that we need well trained PhD graduates from schools that have strong research productivity (publications and grants) who can work independently yet collaboratively with other professions (e.g., exercise physiology, engineering, statistics). Since the most common place for these people is a University, then our Univ should focus on this, and support this (and I do not necessarily mean with internal grant funding, but other support). But teaching entry-level PT students to be compassionate, critical thinking practitioners is also important, and for that, I think you need someone who can translate research into a clinical realm, which is why PT, PhD are often good. Clinicians are not a bad thing in the classroom at all, but the purpose of an educational program should be entry-level (and advanced in some cases) education along with advancing the profession.
 
....And what is not needed are condescending professors who push their politics and value system upon you and then proceed to talk about their violent experiences as a soldier in the middle of class.
 
I attend the University of Jamestown Physical Therapy Program as well. I would like to kindly ask you to re-think your posts on this forum. I disagree that Fargo is the worst place to live in the U.S. I believe it is actually an excellent place to attend undergraduate or graduate school. Although the weather may be cold, Fargo is a warm community. There are countless opportunities for students to build their career and thrive as young professionals. If you have only met unintelligent, close-minded people in Fargo, I don't think you are looking in the right places. The professors in our program are working very hard to educate future physical therapists AND also creating a lasting program that contributes to the community. The program has already reached out to several organizations in the community. As a student in the Class of 2016, I will be proud to graduate from the inaugural class of the DPT program. I respect that your opinion is your own, but please also respect the institution you are attending.

I would have to agree with Fargogirl. I went to interview at Jamestown this past spring. Yikes!!
 
Safe for now. Potential huge risk later. Doing so is usually ill-advised as you're potentially risking a lot if the program doesn't get accredited.
 
But to advance this profession, my opinion is that we need well trained PhD graduates from schools that have strong research productivity (publications and grants) who can work independently yet collaboratively with other professions (e.g., exercise physiology, engineering, statistics). Since the most common place for these people is a University, then our Univ should focus on this, and support this (and I do not necessarily mean with internal grant funding, but other support). But teaching entry-level PT students to be compassionate, critical thinking practitioners is also important, and for that, I think you need someone who can translate research into a clinical realm, which is why PT, PhD are often good. Clinicians are not a bad thing in the classroom at all, but the purpose of an educational program should be entry-level (and advanced in some cases) education along with advancing the profession.

Exactly on the above. Accreditation standards seem way too loosey goosey for me, but I haven't actually sat down and read them.

As for the second bold, I would think the full time clinicals and CI's can help with that. Hopefully...this field is way too social to fail at that.
 
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