Is being disadvantaged actually an advantage?

[Jsor20]

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This is something I've been reading and looking into. How do medical schools view people who were disadvantaged growing up? Is it something that helps them matriculate? Or is it looked down upon in some ways?


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[LuluLovesMe]

All depends on how you deal with adversity.

 

[raiderette]

The majority of people that are disadvantaged do not see it as an extra help. We fought to stay straight in high school, to overcome stereotypes from teachers, cops, community. When you time comes to apply we either don't get FAP or struggle to get the money to travel. Many of us worked crappy jobs instead of extra volunteering or long term research. Just to be able to apply we had to work our asses off, yet we are not needed in the medical community like URMs. Be grateful for your life and acknowledge that we are all striving for a common goal.

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[ready2go2]

This is something I've been reading and looking into. How do medical schools view people who were disadvantaged growing up? Is it something that helps them matriculate? Or is it looked down upon in some ways?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Lol yeah struggling for 20+ freaking years is really great!

 

[takeurmeds02]

The majority of people that are disadvantaged do not see it as an extra help. We fought to stay straight in high school, to overcome stereotypes from teachers, cops, community. When you time comes to apply we either don't get FAP or struggle to get the money to travel. Many of us worked crappy jobs instead of extra volunteering or long term research. Just to be able to apply we had to work our asses off, yet we are not needed in the medical community like URMs. Be grateful for your life and acknowledge that we are all striving for a common goal.

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Well I don't know about that. At the end of the day, the goal is be inclusive of all walks of life. A lot of times people want to make "URM" and "disadvantaged" synonymous but in reality they can exist independent of each other. Both realities are just as valuable and in need of adequate representation in the workforce.

 

[7331poas]

Can we just go ahead and close this thread? Jesus just look up the past 20 of these threads

 

[OchemOficionado]

The majority of people that are disadvantaged do not see it as an extra help. We fought to stay straight in high school, to overcome stereotypes from teachers, cops, community. When you time comes to apply we either don't get FAP or struggle to get the money to travel. Many of us worked crappy jobs instead of extra volunteering or long term research. Just to be able to apply we had to work our asses off, yet we are not needed in the medical community like URMs. Be grateful for your life and acknowledge that we are all striving for a common goal.

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That just described the life of most URMs that apply to medical school.


Still, most applicants that apply disadvantaged are ORM, and yes it is taken into consideration during the application process. Disadvantaged, URM or both may be a huge boost at some schools, but every person I know in those categories would have perferred to have a better life than a one time boost to help make up for a life that may have contributed to lower scores. So, be grateful too. We all have to be grateful really.

 

[NewHorizons]

Lol yeah struggling for 20+ freaking years is really great!

Yeah no kidding....... are people literally this dense?????????? struggling for 20+ years seems to be a joyride for MD admissions ........ most people can't even be competitive let alone demonstrate top performances with significant handicaps.

The entitled people out there....... god there are some dumb people trying to be doctors.

 

[breezy16]

That just described the life of most URMs that apply to medical school.


Still, most applicants that apply disadvantaged are ORM, and yes it is taken into consideration during the application process. Disadvantaged, URM or both may be a huge boost at some schools, but every person I know in those categories would have perferred to have a better life than a one time boost to help make up for a life that may have contributed to lower scores. So, be grateful too. We all have to be grateful really.

This x10000. I worked my ass off throughout UG and PB and would've killed to have the cash to have tutors/big prep courses for the MCAT and time. Working 40 hrs a week + studying for the MCAT + squeezing it in after finals/before spring sem SUCKED.
Having an entire summer without work and just plowing through a test? Ugh, yes please. (I guess I'll get to know what it feels like during Step I)
While adversity brought something to the table, its what I accomplished on top of dealing with all of it is what makes it interesting to talk about.

 

[Promethean]

Before we all dogpile on OP telling them how terrible they are to ask such a question... I think it can actually be read a couple of ways.

I think OP was trying to ask... is claiming disadvantaged status held against you in some way? That is actually an interesting question. People who have been genuinely disadvantaged along the way may tend to expect that their situation might be held against them. After all, that is a pattern they are familiar with. It can be hard to believe that you might actually catch a break, if you haven't been terribly accustomed to getting those.

 

[XxThaDoggxX]

The majority of people that are disadvantaged do not see it as an extra help. We fought to stay straight in high school, to overcome stereotypes from teachers, cops, community. When you time comes to apply we either don't get FAP or struggle to get the money to travel. Many of us worked crappy jobs instead of extra volunteering or long term research. Just to be able to apply we had to work our asses off, yet we are not needed in the medical community like URMs. Be grateful for your life and acknowledge that we are all striving for a common goal.

Well I don't know about that. At the end of the day, the goal is be inclusive of all walks of life. A lot of times people want to make "URM" and "disadvantaged" synonymous but in reality they can exist independent of each other. Both realities are just as valuable and in need of adequate representation in the workforce.

Could not have said it better myself.

 

[DarkHorse57]

I feel like it would be looked down upon if your just using your "disadvantage" to make excuses

 

[gyngyn]

The majority of people that are disadvantaged do not see it as an extra help. We fought to stay straight in high school, to overcome stereotypes from teachers, cops, community. When you time comes to apply we either don't get FAP or struggle to get the money to travel. Many of us worked crappy jobs instead of extra volunteering or long term research. Just to be able to apply we had to work our asses off, yet we are not needed in the medical community like URMs. Be grateful for your life and acknowledge that we are all striving for a common goal.

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All applicants get credit for the distance traveled.

 

[gyngyn]

I feel like it would be looked down upon if your just using your "disadvantage" to make excuses

No one likes being gamed.

 

[Jsor20]

Before we all dogpile on OP telling them how terrible they are to ask such a question... I think it can actually be read a couple of ways.

I think OP was trying to ask... is claiming disadvantaged status held against you in some way? That is actually an interesting question. People who have been genuinely disadvantaged along the way may tend to expect that their situation might be held against them. After all, that is a pattern they are familiar with. It can be hard to believe that you might actually catch a break, if you haven't been terribly accustomed to getting those.

Thank you for having a little decency haha people on here can be the worst. It was a question that was on my mind and then people are so quick to get offended. I was just wondering if their trials do in fact become an advantage in the eyes of admissions?


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[CloverBale]

The way I see it is, the road to becoming a doctor is a rich man's game. How on earth would you manage good grades, volunteering hours, research, MCAT scores, e.t.c without money? Surely your parents put a good amount of money aside for you to do all of those things and live comfortably. Most of my friends who got straight into med school or soon after came from wealthy backgrounds. Most med school students have at least one doctor in their immediate family anyway.

The rest of us aren't so lucky. Some of us had to claw through undergrad, and still managed to do well. I've worked 40+ hours in undergrad, and it took me 6 years to graduate because of other reasons I don't want to get into.

I hate the fact that I have to explain why my grades are so low, why I took forever to graduate, why I didn't take so many classes in some semesters. It's embarrassing. I know I'm very capable, I just wasn't given the opportunity. If my parents were rich, I'd probably embarrass all of you with my scores. (sorry not sorry).

I don't really see having to tick off the disadvantage box off as an advantage, I don't have stellar grades, I don't have great research, I don't have great hours, e.t.c. I have to be a little b*tch about it and explain that my upbringings is why I fell short. Sometimes you're disadvantage and schools don't even look at you because you didn't get the cut-off grades.. You have to remember, some people are disadvantage and just will never get the grades/funds to make it to med school. Don't think it's some sort of blessing.

 

[Citygirl44]

Being disadvantaged is never an advantage. I liken it to someone who has a handicap sticker on their car and gets to park in a closer spot to the store than someone who does not have a sticker. People get mad because they have to walk five minutes more than the person who has the sticker. God forbid the person gets out of the car and can actually walk and is not in a wheelchair. The other person feels like " hey that's not fair, you can walk just like I can walk, you need to park in the back too". What they don't realize is that , that person may have been in physical therapy for 5 years to " be able to walk ok" or maybe that person has a problem like MS or congestive heart failure that makes them look " fine" at that moment but by they get home they can barely breathe or move, and that's why they were given a " sticker". Is it really worth having a whole life of hardship just to gain what some people feel like is an advantage in one small aspect of life? People should ask themselves, " would I want to trade places with this person, for this one little benefit in life that this other person has" ( the perception that adcoms are easier on this person because of race/ economics/ disability etc)? If the answer is no, then stop it! Sometimes on the outside people look ok, but you really don't know the things that they had to go through to get to that point ( I'm not talking about just race) , that has to be taken into consideration. Everyone didn't start off at the same place.

 

[XxThaDoggxX]

While I am not living in a box off the side of the interstate...I definitely do feel I am more disadvantaged than the average applicant. Did it propel me into elite status with interviews all over the place/completely make up for my subpar MCAT score? No. Would I rather have lived a much more enjoyable life for the past 10+ years instead constantly struggling and being able to check a box on an application? You bet your sweet @ss I would.

As it has been said before time and time again, the entirety of your application, and the story you tell is all taken into account (though I truly 100% believe some schools could care less about everything you put down on your application besides your MCAT/GPA total--gotta keep those stats high baby)

 

[Goro]

We like come from behind stories. It's in our DNA as Americans.

This is something I've been reading and looking into. How do medical schools view people who were disadvantaged growing up? Is it something that helps them matriculate? Or is it looked down upon in some ways?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Citygirl44]

Being that I've had the ability to "walk " since the day I was born,I would think that I would be expected to " walk faster" than someone who just learned how to walk five years ago. Therefore to complain about a person receiving a "handicap sticker" would seem silly.
I'll stop now. I think I made my point ( whether people agree or not).

 

[OchemOficionado]

Being that I've had the ability to "walk " since the day I was born,I would think that I would be expected to " walk faster" than someone who just learned how to walk five years ago. Therefore to complain about a person receiving a "handicap sticker" would seem silly.
I'll stop now. I think I made my point ( whether people agree or not).

Yasssssss!! To all of your comments

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

This is something I've been reading and looking into. How do medical schools view people who were disadvantaged growing up? Is it something that helps them matriculate? Or is it looked down upon in some ways?


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Another ORM vs URM thread 🙁

 

[Mansamusa]

If not being able to afford tutors and MCAT prep and having to work through college while struggling to maintain a good gpa is disadvantaged, then half of med school matriculants are disadvantaged. Middle class and lower income students share that experience. Especially when it comes to affording applications since those are so freaking expensive. So I think being disadvantaged needs to go beyond that.

But a disadvantage can be an advantage if you manage to keep up with well-off students- which is far from guaranteed or even likely

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

Increase your life adversity and profit.

 

[Lucca]

The problem with OPs reasoning is the same problem in a variety of This vs. That threads. On SDN - and for premeds in general - the perspective is always very one dimensional in that the only dimension that matters is the application to medical school. When you are disadvantaged or a minority, you do not have the luxury of picking and choosing which dimensions are important, you will experience all of the ways your identity, SES, or physical ability will harm and help you all at once. With most cases of disadvantage, there is very little "help" to be found outside of a parking sticker and checking a box of questionable weight on an application for professional school.

It's the same reason why I, at least, find URM v ORM threads so infuriating because most of the people in that thread haven't cared and won't care about race issues a single day in their lives other than right as they are applying to medical school and they will treat that moment as the single most important one for the purposes of argument.

 

[Citygirl44]

While I am not living in a box off the side of the interstate...I definitely do feel I am more disadvantaged than the average applicant. Did it propel me into elite status with interviews all over the place/completely make up for my subpar MCAT score? No. Would I rather have lived a much more enjoyable life for the past 10+ years instead constantly struggling and being able to check a box on an application? You bet your sweet @ss I would.

As it has been said before time and time again, the entirety of your application, and the story you tell is all taken into account (though I truly 100% believe some schools could care less about everything you put down on your application besides your MCAT/GPA total--gotta keep those stats high baby)

I would give up the ability to check off any box on any application if it meant that I didn't have to worry about my 18yr old brother's life being lost every time he left the house. I worry about this Everyday, all day for the last 6 years and for the next 50 years.

 

[Mad Jack]

Given that most disadvantaged students have trouble affording interviews, applications, and college, and often lack the time for ECs, applying for all of the waivers and fee assistance programs, and have few connections for things like shadowing and clinical experience, and that they often come out of high school systems that do not adequately prepare them for college success- no, I would not say that being disadvantaged is an advantage.

 

[f4reignbeauty]

The problem with OPs reasoning is the same problem in a variety of This vs. That threads. On SDN - and for premeds in general - the perspective is always very one dimensional in that the only dimension that matters is the application to medical school. When you are disadvantaged or a minority, you do not have the luxury of picking and choosing which dimensions are important, you will experience all of the ways your identity, SES, or physical ability will harm and help you all at once. With most cases of disadvantage, there is very little "help" to be found outside of a parking sticker and checking a box of questionable weight on an application for professional school.

It's the same reason why I, at least, find URM v ORM threads so infuriating because most of the people in that thread haven't cared and won't care about race issues a single day in their lives other than right as they are applying to medical school and they will treat that moment as the single most important one for the purposes of argument.

@Lucca This is everything! Thank you for writing this, and I totally agree.

In terms of applying disadvantaged, I think it depends on how you frame the challenges you've faced. Sure, I had to work 2-3 jobs simultaneously in undergrad, but when I wrote my essay, it was more of a story about triumph. I did not want anyone to feel bad, or pity, for me. I wanted the reviewers to look at the statement as another aspect of my life, and why I am so passionate about underserved medicine.

 

[Seattle Mariners Fan]

How on earth would you manage good grades, volunteering hours, research, MCAT scores, e.t.c without money?

Nope. Its an industrious man's game, which correlates about .8 with having abundance. Agree that fortune can, often temporarily, make someone poor, but durable poverty among healthy adults in America is a strong signal about character. I've been mildly asset positive during my postbac.

As part of my current line of work, I get to work with everyone from career welfare scabs to presidents at Ivies to film production studios. Its been informative.

Dealing with the rich:

- If I ask for a document, I get it in a few days.
- If I call them, they call me back.
- If we have a disagreement, we talk about it. If we can't come to an agreement, they provide logic and evidence for why they disagree.
- Sometimes they get mildly sarcastic.
- They rarely lie, but do play information asymmetry games.

Dealing with the very poor:

- If I ask for a document, I probably don't get it, until I tell them "No tiki no laundry"
- If I call them, they probably don't call me back. Certainly not before 11:00 when they wake up, or after 3:00 when they're getting high.
- If we have a disagreement, they scream about it. Loudly. And never about evidence, always something about my mom or Calling Saul.
- They are frequently interpersonally abrasive. In general, the poorer, the nastier.
- They frequently lie, often about things that are easily verifiable.

Given that most disadvantaged students have trouble affording interviews, applications, and college, and often lack the time for ECs, applying for all of the waivers and fee assistance programs, and have few connections for things like shadowing and clinical experience, and that they often come out of high school systems that do not adequately prepare them for college success- no, I would not say that being disadvantaged is an advantage.

Have you seen admission tables for latino and especially African admits? Blacks sub 3.0 but +30 on the MCAT have better admissions odds than a 3.6/30 Asian applicant.

I appreciate that there is some real discrimination - especially in the grading practices of university professors - however a 2.5 student versus a 3.6 student is a gigantic difference that socioeconomic status by itself is unlikely to explain.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Nope. Its an industrious man's game, which correlates about .8 with having abundance. Agree that fortune can, often temporarily, make someone poor, but durable poverty among healthy adults in America is a strong signal about character. I've been mildly asset positive during my postbac.

As part of my current line of work, I get to work with everyone from career welfare scabs to presidents at Ivies to film production studios. Its been informative.

Dealing with the rich:

- If I ask for a document, I get it in a few days.
- If I call them, they call me back.
- If we have a disagreement, we talk about it. If we can't come to an agreement, they provide logic and evidence for why they disagree.
- Sometimes they get mildly sarcastic.
- They rarely lie, but do play information asymmetry games.

Dealing with the very poor:

- If I ask for a document, I probably don't get it, until I tell them "No tiki no laundry"
- If I call them, they probably don't call me back. Certainly not before 11:00 when they wake up, or after 3:00 when they're getting high.
- If we have a disagreement, they scream about it. Loudly. And never about evidence, always something about my mom or Calling Saul.
- They are frequently interpersonally abrasive. In general, the poorer, the nastier.
- They frequently lie, often about things that are easily verifiable.



Have you seen admission tables for latino and especially African admits? Blacks sub 3.0 but +30 on the MCAT have better admissions odds than a 3.6/30 Asian applicant.

I appreciate that there is some real discrimination - especially in the grading practices of university professors - however a 2.5 student versus a 3.6 student is a gigantic difference that socioeconomic status by itself is unlikely to explain.

Wow, I can't even...

 

[Citygirl44]

I surprisingly agree with most of what you said ( not the bottom half).. But people tend to act that way when their whole life sucks.

And they know that nothing will probably ever get better.

Because no one ever showed them the skills ( in real life not on TV) how to make their life better.

And then when systems are put in place to try to help them to help themselves to end the cycle of poverty/ ignorance etc, other people get mad and say " that's not fair, why are you helping them".

My outlook on life changed so much after my surroundings changed. When I moved out of the inner city , the sense of hopelessness that I had changed very quickly. It was then that I realized that anything was possible and the " world was my oyster". When no one is encouraging you to go to college ( because no one that your family knows ever went) it's hard for you to magically have the drive and know how on how to accomplish things. There is absolutely no one to guide you or give you advice because no one that you know has ever been successful. It's like you're always starting from the bottom, with no help.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Thing is, I deal with the poorest of the poor on a daily basis and it's often difficult to get them to come for appointments because they're working all the gorram time.

Eh, maybe I'm living in a different universe...

 

[Citygirl44]

And I'm sure it's somewhat the same for poor people in " middle America" that come from small towns and their family just expects them to marry someone from high school , have kids , work at Walmart and that's it. Of course they are probably not getting too much support from their families to try to do better either. And they may even be on welfare ( but of course now it's called a " subsidy"), I'm sure adcoms take this into consideration also.

 

[7331poas]

I've personally seen people denied jobs in my town because the owner thought it's bad practice to hire n-blank-s. That was out loud. I can't speculate what other biases there are that people don't voice.

 

[Seattle Mariners Fan]

I've personally seen people denied jobs in my town because the owner thought it's bad practice to hire n-blank-s. That was out loud. I can't speculate what other biases there are that people don't voice.

I agree with you. Active discrimination is totally rampant. It is particularly prominent among college professors, who as a group are clearly discriminating against blacks. This is especially true of math, physics, biology, and chemistry professors.

 

[ready2go2]

I agree with you. Active discrimination is totally rampant. It is particularly prominent among college professors, who as a group are clearly discriminating against blacks. This is especially true of math, physics, biology, and chemistry professors.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/11/opinion/sunday/professors-are-prejudiced-too.html?_r=0

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Nope. Its an industrious man's game, which correlates about .8 with having abundance. Agree that fortune can, often temporarily, make someone poor, but durable poverty among healthy adults in America is a strong signal about character. I've been mildly asset positive during my postbac.

As part of my current line of work, I get to work with everyone from career welfare scabs to presidents at Ivies to film production studios. Its been informative.

Dealing with the rich:

- If I ask for a document, I get it in a few days.
- If I call them, they call me back.
- If we have a disagreement, we talk about it. If we can't come to an agreement, they provide logic and evidence for why they disagree.
- Sometimes they get mildly sarcastic.
- They rarely lie, but do play information asymmetry games.

Dealing with the very poor:

- If I ask for a document, I probably don't get it, until I tell them "No tiki no laundry"
- If I call them, they probably don't call me back. Certainly not before 11:00 when they wake up, or after 3:00 when they're getting high.
- If we have a disagreement, they scream about it. Loudly. And never about evidence, always something about my mom or Calling Saul.
- They are frequently interpersonally abrasive. In general, the poorer, the nastier.
- They frequently lie, often about things that are easily verifiable.



Have you seen admission tables for latino and especially African admits? Blacks sub 3.0 but +30 on the MCAT have better admissions odds than a 3.6/30 Asian applicant.

I appreciate that there is some real discrimination - especially in the grading practices of university professors - however a 2.5 student versus a 3.6 student is a gigantic difference that socioeconomic status by itself is unlikely to explain.

It's a shame in all your experience, instead of informing a perspective in which you are able to recognize different walks of life, especially with dealing with people on a personal level, you have only come out with broad and ignorant generalisations. I especially love the part "information asymmetry" vs outward lies, very interesting.

Further, how do you contend that prejudice and discrimination cannot reach the level of 1.0 gpa difference? Is there some type of life experience calculation?

Anecdote: I had a race based discrimination issue my senior year of high school and a professor was pushing for me to be barred from graduation by failing me in a required course. She also swore that I was not intelligent enough to complete high school and would fail all my AP exams (she was my teacher for one), and used this as a tool for furthering her agenda given that the school obsessed over its AP scores for certain government funding. Not three weeks later, sat for 5 AP exams, two of which I had never taken the course to prove a point. 5s across the boards. They sent me home for two months off of her push, and I asked for a different teacher to be given all of my essays and hw and regrade them. She could have prevented me from graduating high school, you seriously believe 1.0 gpa difference is impossible?


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[Seattle Mariners Fan]

It's a shame in all your experience, instead of informing a perspective in which you are able to recognize different walks of life, especially with dealing with people on a personal level, you have only come out with broad and ignorant generalisations. I especially love the part "information asymmetry" vs outward lies, very interesting.

Lying and playing games with information asymmetry are not the same thing.

Lying is giving a false fact.

Playing information asymmetry games is not revealing or disclosing one.

World of difference.

Further, how do you contend that prejudice and discrimination cannot reach the level of 1.0 gpa difference? Is there some type of life experience calculation?

Do you think there is a subconscious "-10 points he's an African" bias in grading? Or a +2 points he's an Asian? Does this include courses where standardized tests are most or all of the grading? Does the MCAT - a test that covers a huge expanse of relatively simple concepts anyone can learn - subtract points for being black?

Bluntly I see the vast majority of complaints about discrimination as straussian, often made with an extreme brand of duping delight. Take a quick image search for Oxford's loudest complainer about racial injustice: Ntokozo Qwabe.

Which of Eykman's facial expressions does Qwabe routinely display? Hint: its not sincerity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/11/opinion/sunday/professors-are-prejudiced-too.html?_r=0

The most relevant aspect of this article: Asians were the worst victims of this discrimination, yet have better grades than whites and need a full +1 grade point relative to Africans to have an equal shot at admissions.

Is discrimination helpful to grades, or harmful? I'm not sure but in either case, it doesn't help the arguments in favor of admitting 2.5 GPA blacks to medical school over 3.5 asians.

 

[7331poas]

Are you guys trying to argue on principle or practicality? Because blacks and Mexicans are not "stealing" Asian seats in medical schools. The representation of Mexicans and otherwise in medicine is so minuscule relative to the population I don't see how you can argue that.

Your argument it seems is simply, ok there are no black doctors in society, on principle that is ok.

------

Now regardless of all of this, the Supreme Court has already passed judgement that these criteria can be used at the schools prerogative.

 

[Seattle Mariners Fan]

Are you guys trying to argue on principle or practicality? Because blacks and Mexicans are not "stealing" Asian seats in medical schools. The representation of Mexicans and otherwise in medicine is so minuscule relative to the population I don't see how you can argue that.

Your argument it seems is simply, ok there are no black doctors in society, on principle that is ok.

My argument is that actively discriminating by race to prevent alleged discrimination based on race is like doing the dirty for virginity.

And there are plenty of black and latino students who meet purely meritocratic standards for admission to medical school. Hint: these are the ones with a GPA above 3.6 and an MCAT above 30:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321520/data/factstablea24-5.pdf

 

[7331poas]

My argument is that actively discriminating by race to prevent alleged discrimination based on race is like doing the dirty for virginity.

And there are plenty of black and latino students who meet purely meritocratic standards for admission to medical school. Hint: these are the ones with a GPA above 3.6 and an MCAT above 30:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321520/data/factstablea24-5.pdf

By my count, out of the 40,000 medical school matriculants who get in each year, about 2000 of them would be URM in your system (around 4-5ish%).

The actually US population for these groups is about 20%.

 

[Lucca]

It's a shame in all your experience, instead of informing a perspective in which you are able to recognize different walks of life, especially with dealing with people on a personal level, you have only come out with broad and ignorant generalisations. I especially love the part "information asymmetry" vs outward lies, very interesting.

Further, how do you contend that prejudice and discrimination cannot reach the level of 1.0 gpa difference? Is there some type of life experience calculation?

Anecdote: I had a race based discrimination issue my senior year of high school and a professor was pushing for me to be barred from graduation by failing me in a required course. She also swore that I was not intelligent enough to complete high school and would fail all my AP exams (she was my teacher for one), and used this as a tool for furthering her agenda given that the school obsessed over its AP scores for certain government funding. Not three weeks later, sat for 5 AP exams, two of which I had never taken the course to prove a point. 5s across the boards. They sent me home for two months off of her push, and I asked for a different teacher to be given all of my essays and hw and regrade them. She could have prevented me from graduating high school, you seriously believe 1.0 gpa difference is impossible?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Same. Had a teacher in high school discourage me from taking BC calculus because I was, quote, "good at math for a Hispanic student" but she did not think I would do well in BC calc in spite for getting good grades in her class (pre-calc). So she wouldn't give me the recommendation needed at my high school to sign up for course. Counselor put me in it anyway, got an A, got a 5 on the AP and thought the exam was a joke, never received below an A in maths in college up to DiffEq and Linear Algebra.

But I'm just good at math "for an Hispanic student".

I can brush off the casual racism because that is common, although unpleasant and discouraging. However, had I been a less confident student or needed external validation for whatever reason then I would have been actively kept from meeting my full potential because some old white person thought my ethnicity had something to do with differentiation.

 

[Jsor20]

Same. Had a teacher in high school discourage me from taking BC calculus because I was, quote, "good at math for a Hispanic student" but she did not think I would do well in BC calc in spite for getting good grades in her class (pre-calc). So she wouldn't give me the recommendation needed at my high school to sign up for course. Counselor put me in it anyway, got an A, got a 5 on the AP and thought the exam was a joke, never received below an A in maths in college up to DiffEq and Linear Algebra.

But I'm just good at math "for an Hispanic student".

I can brush off the casual racism because that is common, although unpleasant and discouraging. However, had I been a less confident student or needed external validation for whatever reason then I would have been actively kept from meeting my full potential because some old white person thought my ethnicity had something to do with differentiation.

I mean if this is turning into a race thing.... I think any Caucasian can say they have heard a dozen times that they won't get into medical school because they are Caucasian. And then being a male it's "impossible." Sure there is racism out there, but I think matriculating into medical school shouldn't be based on race. It's skill, hard work, determination, and wanting to serve. Everyone has opportunities to succeed in some way or another and that does not depend on your race. Using your race as an excuse to do bad and et discouraged is frequently seen.

This thread was literally about the essay of being disadvantaged growing up and that if your hardships will help you matriculate. That's it.


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[OchemOficionado]

Lying and playing games with information asymmetry are not the same thing.

Do you think there is a subconscious "-10 points he's an African" bias in grading? Or a +2 points he's an Asian? Does this include courses where standardized tests are most or all of the grading? Does the MCAT - a test that covers a huge expanse of relatively simple concepts anyone can learn - subtract points for being black?

The most relevant aspect of this article: Asians were the worst victims of this discrimination, yet have better grades than whites and need a full +1 grade point relative to Africans to have an equal shot at admissions.

Subconscious discrimination/bias is a real thing. For example, people of color are prescribed less pain medicine during their hospital stays than non-POC. I highly doubt their physicians are saying, "Lets let these ones suffer a little more".

You do understand that there are different types of discrimination, right? Someone being discriminated against in all aspects of life on top of growing up with little to no resources will in, in all most every case, have a completely different GPA than non people of color, especially non people of color or Asians from higher socioeconomic conditions.

 

[OchemOficionado]

I mean if this is turning into a race thing.... I think any Caucasian can say they have heard a dozen times that they won't get into medical school because they are Caucasian. And then being a male it's "impossible." Sure there is racism out there, but I think matriculating into medical school shouldn't be based on race. It's skill, hard work, determination, and wanting to serve. Everyone has opportunities to succeed in some way or another and that does not depend on your race. Using your race as an excuse to do bad and et discouraged is frequently seen.

This thread was literally about the essay of being disadvantaged growing up and that if your hardships will help you matriculate. That's it.


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Caucasians and men have no problem getting in to medical school because of their race or sex so I don't know how hearing that is an act of racism/discrimination. Seems like neither group is lacking in numbers.

You do understand that opportunities to succeed are different for different groups, right? If so, than what's the argument. Either you understand that racism exists and your neighborhood/income are the greatest predictors of life trajectory/chances, or you don't. Glad adcoms have taken a sociology class and understand that.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

I mean if this is turning into a race thing.... I think any Caucasian can say they have heard a dozen times that they won't get into medical school because they are Caucasian. And then being a male it's "impossible." Sure there is racism out there, but I think matriculating into medical school shouldn't be based on race. It's skill, hard work, determination, and wanting to serve. Everyone has opportunities to succeed in some way or another and that does not depend on your race. Using your race as an excuse to do bad and et discouraged is frequently seen.

This thread was literally about the essay of being disadvantaged growing up and that if your hardships will help you matriculate. That's it.


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The fact is, when you are a minority, you have to more determination, more hard work and more desire to reach that goal the majority of the time just to overcome the racial barriers to success that are sprinkled heavily throughout your life. Everyone does not have the opportunity to succeed in the same way. It's completely ignorant to think that is the case.

A famous psycho-sociologist used to travel the US in the 90s giving talks for businesses and schools about racial empathy and diversity tolerance. In one of her speaks at a university she had all her white students sit at the front of the class, and all the minorities at the very back. She gave them all a sheet of paper, and placed a waste basket on the floor in the front of the class near the blackboard. She asked them all to shoot it in.

That is what equal opportunity is, we all have the paper ball, and we all have the right to try to make it in the basket. What we all don't have, is the same access (sitting in the front), and ease in getting it in. That distance= difference in difficulty, the journey travelled, is completely different based on your race. Compound that with low socioeconomic status, your putting more blocks in front of that waste basket.

It's easy for the person sitting in the front to look to either side of them and say, hmm we all have the same opportunity, you can do it if I can. But that person rarely looks behind them. Rarely sees the person that could never get the vantage point they are accustomed to. That's the same person that says "we all have opportunities to succeed that doesn't depend on your race".

Now we ask is being disadvantaged or a minority an advantage. Well let's see, since we start all the way from the back, struggling just to get to the point of being able to take that shot. Whatever boost we get once we finally make it really doesn't make up for the struggles of getting to that point. For the premed that believes the world only exists so far as medical school admissions exist this may be all that matters to them. Soon they will learn, life goes far beyond that.


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[WhittyPsyche]

My argument is that actively discriminating by race to prevent alleged discrimination based on race is like doing the dirty for virginity.

And there are plenty of black and latino students who meet purely meritocratic standards for admission to medical school. Hint: these are the ones with a GPA above 3.6 and an MCAT above 30:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321520/data/factstablea24-5.pdf

I'm thinking you don't understand this process. The process of accepting minorities does not prevent the racism the faced through their lives, that already happened.


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[WhittyPsyche]

Lying and playing games with information asymmetry are not the same thing.

Lying is giving a false fact.

Playing information asymmetry games is not revealing or disclosing one.

World of difference.



Do you think there is a subconscious "-10 points he's an African" bias in grading? Or a +2 points he's an Asian? Does this include courses where standardized tests are most or all of the grading? Does the MCAT - a test that covers a huge expanse of relatively simple concepts anyone can learn - subtract points for being black?

Bluntly I see the vast majority of complaints about discrimination as straussian, often made with an extreme brand of duping delight. Take a quick image search for Oxford's loudest complainer about racial injustice: Ntokozo Qwabe.

Which of Eykman's facial expressions does Qwabe routinely display? Hint: its not sincerity.



The most relevant aspect of this article: Asians were the worst victims of this discrimination, yet have better grades than whites and need a full +1 grade point relative to Africans to have an equal shot at admissions.

Is discrimination helpful to grades, or harmful? I'm not sure but in either case, it doesn't help the arguments in favor of admitting 2.5 GPA blacks to medical school over 3.5 asians.

I'm sorry in the world I live in, lying by omission is still lying, but I see you have different categories based on income. So there ya go.

Are you asking me to asses one public individual's facial expressions to determine the validity of discrimination? Interesting. You don't believe people have real barriers due to discrimination and so you have highlighted one individual you believe is representative of the exaggerated struggles of all minorities to justify your view. Makes sense.

Btw there are a plethora of experiments on implicit bias, in business, school, Grad admissions, tenure decisions, income, and social things like personality traits. Asians are rarely the worst off in those results, like RARELY. Maybe dig into that research more before you claim Asians are the most hurt by implicit bias. Hint: more often than not it's blacks and Hispanics and Muslims/Arabs.


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[Mansamusa]

The fact is, when you are a minority, you have to more determination, more hard work and more desire to reach that goal the majority of the time just to overcome the racial barriers to success that are sprinkled heavily throughout your life. Everyone does not have the opportunity to succeed in the same way. It's completely ignorant to think that is the case.

A famous psycho-sociologist used to travel the US in the 90s giving talks for businesses and schools about racial empathy and diversity tolerance. In one of her speaks at a university she had all her white students sit at the front of the class, and all the minorities at the very back. She gave them all a sheet of paper, and placed a waste basket on the floor in the front of the class near the blackboard. She asked them all to shoot it in.

That is what equal opportunity is, we all have the paper ball, and we all have the right to try to make it in the basket. What we all don't have, is the same access (sitting in the front), and ease in getting it in. That distance= difference in difficulty, the journey travelled, is completely different based on your race. Compound that with low socioeconomic status, your putting more blocks in front of that waste basket.

It's easy for the person sitting in the front to look to either side of them and say, hmm we all have the same opportunity, you can do it if I can. But that person rarely looks behind them. Rarely sees the person that could never get the vantage point they are accustomed to. That's the same person that says "we all have opportunities to succeed that doesn't depend on your race".

Now we ask is being disadvantaged or a minority an advantage. Well let's see, since we start all the way from the back, struggling just to get to the point of being able to take that shot. Whatever boost we get once we finally make it really doesn't make up for the struggles of getting to that point. For the premed that believes the world only exists so far as medical school admissions exist this may be all that matters to them. Soon they will learn, life goes far beyond that.


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See, I have a problem with the simplistic view that race itself is the disadvantage. I am pro-racial and SES AA all the way. But in the analogy that woman used with the wastebasket- a black student from an upper middle-class family who values education will be in the front too, while the white son of a drug addict living out of a car would be in the back.

The problem is that URMs disproportionately experience SES disadvantages that can couple with systemic racial issues. A rich URM who wants to go to med school isn't going to have huge barriers to overcome. Period. They may need to grapple with issues that their rich white counterparts don't confront, and thoose could be addressed, but they will have no problem being successful. Go into rural white methland and tell me that wealthy URMs have less opportunities than they do. Race is neither necessary nor sufficient to be disadvantaged.

I know med schools don't look at disadvantage status with such a limited view and can appreciate the journey that non-URMs take, so it's all good.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

See, I have a problem with the simplistic view that race itself is the disadvantage. I am pro-racial and SES AA all the way. But in the analogy that woman used with the wastebasket- a black student from an upper middle-class family who values education will be in the front too, while the white son of a drug addict living out of a car would be in the back.

The problem is not inherent in their race. The problem is that URMs disproportionately experience SES disadvantages that can couple with systemic racial issues. A rich URM who wants to go to med school isn't going to have huge barriers to overcome. Period. They may need to grapple with issues that their rich white counterparts don't confront, and thoose could be addressed, but they will have no problem being successful. Go into rural white methland and tell me that wealthy URMs have less opportunities than they do. Race is neither necessary nor sufficient to be disadvantaged.

I know med schools don't look at disadvantage status with such a limited view and can
appreciate the journey that non-URMs take, so it's all good.

Please don't think that because I addressed a PP questions regarding racial barriers that I am incapable of seeing and understanding other barriers to success. SES is a significant problem as well and a different journey travelled. We can easily make the example about income and we all know how that would look. Her lesson was specifically about teaching about racial issues.

Now what exactly a rich URM faces, I don't know first hand. I have had a few friends who fit that description, only one was premed, and she most definitely was able to take MCAT classes and had a physician parent with all the access you can imagine. But we also went to the same high school and had much of the same race barriers. A poor ORM has challenged she didn't face. I do believe adcoms are able to take this into account.

It is actually quite obvious that they do. A school with 3 URMs and a 3.6 avg gpa didn't get that from get that from 180 ORMs with 4.0s and 3 low stats. The journey travelled is taken into account for everyone.

Edit: typos

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