Is being disadvantaged actually an advantage?

[LizzyM]

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No one is arguing that their study didn't have "findings." Again, we disagree on what you are inferring from those findings. Here are the key findings mentioned in the article:

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Among the key findings:

High school graduation and college enrollment rates have both gone up.

The growth in college enrollment has been driven by students attending two-year colleges, particularly CUNY community colleges.

While academically prepared students (i.e., those who earned the Advanced Regents diploma) were significantly more likely to enroll in college, one in five still didn’t pursue post-secondary education right after graduation.

This suggests that barriers other than academics, such as cost and trouble navigating the application and financial aid process, may interfere with college enrollment, even for the strongest students.

There was slow and steady attrition from college across eight semesters, suggesting that students need support throughout their college career, not just early on.

Students with stronger high school credentials and those at four-year colleges (particularly selective colleges) were more likely to stay enrolled and complete college on time.

Relatively high levels of early persistence in college did not translate into similarly high rates of college completion. For students who entered college in 2006, just 36 percent earned a two- or four-year degree within four years.


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None of these statements are proof of any causal relationship. They are just interesting (potentially) findings to explore further. While the average casual follower is going to think "OMG sources, she wins!" I'm just saying I read the link and I'm underwhelmed.


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The point is, not everyone goes to college as you had stated. The point is, not everyone who attends college finishes college. Even among the most academically talented, there is a sizable proportion that don't get to college or don't stay in college long enough to get degree. It is unjust to say that the opportunity to go to college is handed to every kid and they can just GO, as easy as that.

 

[Citygirl44]

Goodness gracious! Thank you!

 

[LizzyM]

Affirmative action was developed during a time of extreme racism when African Americans were being killed mostly by whites people in the streets. Now they're mostly killing each other.

I grew up in a home with drugs, alcohol, violence, etc and I only had access to a lowly public education. However, I was able to work, hire a tutor in high school, get a scholarship to college, take out federal loans, etc.... Opportunities every American citizen has. So you guys will have to excuse me if I don't emphasize with someone who can't succeed unless everything is handed to them.

The hinge here is "I was able to work". Do you know what unemployment is in minority communities? I don't know what race you are (despite your avatar and screen name) but it is well known that students of color are less likely than their white counterparts to be employed after school or in the summer.
By your own admission, earning the cash to hire a tutor got you to a point where you had scholarships and loans to go to college. That isn't an option in communities where there are no jobs for HS students.

 

[elf_earedMD]

"While the average casual follower is going to think "OMG sources, she wins!" I'm just saying I read the link and I'm underwhelmed".


Lol no, boo. if this is a competition then I think the "average casual follower" would have already known you took the L a long time ago. You may be underwhelmed but it's also obvious that you're very under/uninformed. To echo LizzyM "educate yourself"

 

[OchemOficionado]

She (LizzyM) slays!

 

[BlackDynamite]

The point is, not everyone goes to college as you had stated. The point is, not everyone who attends college finishes college. Even among the most academically talented, there is a sizable proportion that don't get to college or don't stay in college long enough to get degree. It is unjust to say that the opportunity to go to college is handed to every kid and they can just GO, as easy as that.

Correct, not everyone attends/stays in college. The reasons behind this are what is called speculation. However, I'm sure the true reason has nothing to do with work ethic and is probably something deserving of the future ability to perform surgery on my mother.

Back to my original and only point that has nothing to do with college admission: medical school admission. Once you are accepted to college, you are on a level playing field. Sorry. This isn't 1960. Let's pretend that by getting accepted to college you met some sort of minimum requirement and have all of the necessary tools to learn. You can read, write, walk, and chew bubble gum at the same time and you have four years to read used, crappy amazon textbooks like everyone else. You have access to federal funding that is dispensed before school starts. If you didn't know this, you should have called your school and asked where your money was. Some things just can't be taught. Once in college, you will take pre-med courses like everyone else except your grades won't really matter if you are one of the races that my school has to meet its quota with every year. Your MCAT score won't matter either. That's right, you can walk right in with any score because the diverse population of tax payers wants a diverse student body, BY LAW. This is unfortunate because regardless of what mommy, daddy, or LizzyM on SDN told you... you have to pass medical school coursework. If you were never forced to develop the work ethic or skills to do this, you get kicked out of school with lot's of debt, and it's not pretty.

Helping kids get to college? SURE, throw money at them. But once you're in college. It's time to grow up. Go sit in the library and study like everyone else. Don't push other students out the way with your 1st percentile GPA/MCAT because you had a hard life 10 years ago. If someone wants to throw data in my face, post the average MCAT scores for medical school matriculants stratified by race.

And for the kids out there who are reading this on their friends phone, outside in the rain, starving, with no public education for 100 miles... survive until your 18, join the military, and get college and medical school paid for. That's right. I have friends who have gone that route too. No education to full education. All they had to do was shed societies crutches and work for it.

If you guys want to see what disadvantaged actually is, go visit a third world country where there isn't medicare, medicaid, social security, police, clean water, free food/housing, and disability. Oh, and by the way... you don't have to worry about stretching your student loans to cover your parents bills because student loans don't exist and your parents were killed by HIV when you were wondering the streets alone as a two year old. I'm allowed to say this because I've seen it so I'll apologize again if I can't empathize with my fellow disadvantaged students who only had to struggle through reading a book in the air conditioning.

 

[OchemOficionado]

Once you are accepted to college, you are on a level playing field.

Wrong. Overcoming obstacles takes something out of a student. You don't all of the sudden get it all back when you get your first college acceptance. Many times, those obstacles are still around in college. (Having to work to help your family, not being adequately prepared for college coursework, etc.)

You have access to federal funding that is dispensed before school starts.

Wrong. Not true is so many instances.

Some things just can't be taught.

The first thing you've that is 100% true.

Once in college, you will take pre-med courses like everyone else except your grades won't really matter if you are one of the races that my school has to meet its quota with every year. Your MCAT score won't matter either. That's right, you can walk right in with any score because the diverse population of tax payers wants a diverse student body, BY LAW. This is unfortunate because regardless of what mommy, daddy, or LizzyM on SDN told you... you have to pass medical school coursework. If you were never forced to develop the work ethic or skills to do this, you get kicked out of school with lot's of debt, and it's not pretty.

Their grades and MCAT scores don't matter AT ALL? Then why aren't they filling more seats? Plenty URMs get rejected each cycle. . . AND when they do get in they aren't taking up many seats. WHY in the world do you think work ethic is the issue? Do you think URMs are inherently less hard working? Come on. If we have to sooooooooo easy you'd think we get that same "pass" on medical coursework. Schools concerned about having a diverse med school class are equally concerned about having a diverse graduation and diverse doctors out in the workforce. Don't think that those that weren't "forced" to develop work ethic and skills when they were younger won't ever.

But once you're in college. It's time to grow up. Go sit in the library and study like everyone else. Don't push other students out the way with your 1st percentile GPA/MCAT because you had a hard life 10 years ago. If someone wants to throw data in my face, post the average MCAT scores for medical school matriculants stratified by race.

Again, why do you think they aren't studying? For all you know they're studying, working full time and helping to care for their grandma. WHY do you think everyone is amazing when it comes to taking standardized exams? Have you taken more than Soc 101?

. . .shed societies crutches and work for it.

You sound bitter.

 

[f4reignbeauty]

I must have misspoken. I didn't mean "everything." I just meant a public education, college admission/tuition, and medical school admission/tuition. The perceived difficulty otherwise is irrelevant. Those are the barriers to "success."

Student A: 19 MCAT, lost sleep some nights because dad yelled at mom, never studied.

Student B: 35 MCAT, grew up privileged with used books from Amazon, studied every day all day.

Student A outcompeted student B. Real life, happens every year. Let that sink in while you figure out how to reapply to medical school. Oh and by the way that student didn't work hard in medical school either, failed step, and wasted your seat.

This kind of stuff happens unfortunately, and it's not solving the problem. Lowering the bar is not what made America great.


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Does this stuff occur? Sure, but we need to be careful about the examples we use. Not every student that enters into medical school with a lower MCAT score will have that happen. Also, not every student who has low scores will do poorly in medical school. Moreover, the student with the 35 MCAT may have life happen, which could then lead to the events that you described above. I also think it's important that we are more clear about what the actual problem is. It isn't that students with lower scores are taking highly coveted seats. For one, as has been echoed in other threads, the seat was never yours to begin with. Second, there are additional factors that must be discussed. Does the student have support from the faculty at their institution? Are there steps in place to help the student navigate medical school while "life is happening." Too often, the level of support is lacking, which may cause students to have a difficult time in medical school.

I said all of that to say, that this is a multi-faceted issue that affects all students whether they are disadvantaged, advantaged, black, brown, yellow or purple. And the moment that we realize that, we will be in a much better place to move forward.

 

[f4reignbeauty]

@OchemOficionado I wouldn't waste my time going back and forth with the poster above. It isn't worth it, unless you feel as though you can change their perspective. Which seems highly unlikely. It is better to focus your energy elsewhere lol.

 

[OchemOficionado]

@OchemOficionado I wouldn't waste my time going back and forth with the poster above. It isn't worth it, unless you feel as though you can change their perspective. Which seems highly unlikely. It is better to focus your energy elsewhere lol.

On a better note, OMGGGGG you go to Drew 🙂 That's one of my dream schools for sure. My friend is graduating from there next year 🙂

 

[f4reignbeauty]

On a better note, OMGGGGG you go to Drew 🙂 That's one of my dream schools for sure. My friend is graduating from there next year 🙂

Yup! 🙂 I love my Geffen class, and I love my cohort even more! If you have any questions, feel free to message me! <3

 

[OchemOficionado]

Yup! 🙂 I love my Geffen class, and I love my cohort even more! If you have any questions, feel free to message me! <3

Dude, I know like 9 people at Geffen now. I wish that helped me somehow, HAHHAHA. I definitely will when I get an interview 🙂 (speaking it into the universe). Thank you so much!

 

[Affiche]

I think my previous post about coping with poverty while in college clearly expressed why college is not a level playing field for all, but I can see that we're not dealing with a logical or rational person here so I'll leave it that lol.

 

[BlackDynamite]

I think my previous post about coping with poverty while in college clearly expressed why college is not a level playing field for all, but I can see that we're not dealing with a logical or rational person here so I'll leave it that lol.

"Someone disagrees with me. They aren't rationale." Very rationale.


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[BlackDynamite]

Wrong. Overcoming obstacles takes something out of a student. You don't all of the sudden get it all back when you get your first college acceptance. Many times, those obstacles are still around in college. (Having to work to help your family, not being adequately prepared for college coursework, etc.)



Wrong. Not true is so many instances.



The first thing you've that is 100% true.



Their grades and MCAT scores don't matter AT ALL? Then why aren't they filling more seats? Plenty URMs get rejected each cycle. . . AND when they do get in they aren't taking up many seats. WHY in the world do you think work ethic is the issue? Do you think URMs are inherently less hard working? Come on. If we have to sooooooooo easy you'd think we get that same "pass" on medical coursework. Schools concerned about having a diverse med school class are equally concerned about having a diverse graduation and diverse doctors out in the workforce. Don't think that those that weren't "forced" to develop work ethic and skills when they were younger won't ever.



Again, why do you think they aren't studying? For all you know they're studying, working full time and helping to care for their grandma. WHY do you think everyone is amazing when it comes to taking standardized exams? Have you taken more than Soc 101?



You sound bitter.

Show me some numbers on the percentage of URM rejected each cycle, and I'll consider believing you. For now I'll go with what I've seen.


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[LizzyM]

Show me some numbers on the percentage of URM rejected each cycle, and I'll consider believing you. For now I'll go with what I've seen.


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This thread is about "disadvantaged" applicants, not URM but I am happy to oblige you.
AMCAS Table A-24 shows that over 3 admission cycles ending 2016, there were 10,515 URM applicants admitted to medical school accounting for 41% of the URM pool. So 59% of URM applicants are NOT admitted.

For blacks, the figures are most dismal, 63.8% of applicants were not admitted.

The proportion of Asians not admitted to medical school over the same time frame was 57.8% and for whites 55%.


Google Table 24 AMCAS but don't post about it in this thread. This thread is about disadvantage, which is a check box and an essay on the AMCAS application.

 

[Affiche]

"Someone disagrees with me. They aren't rationale." Very rationale.


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It isn't that you disagree, it's that your opinion is based on your own subjective conclusion drawn from an anecdote and, ironically, you dismiss factual evidence as subjective as a way to continue your habit of confirmation bias. THAT is why aren't being logical.

 

[OchemOficionado]

For now I'll go with what I've seen.

LOL! Are you a grant funded researcher that has access to private Med school info and studies many medical schools? Or, are you just someone that came to their own conclusions about a few situations you assume to know the details about? Yeah, bye.

 

[BlackDynamite]

I've said my peace and no longer feel the need to defend my perspective on the facts. Good luck with the rest of the discussion. To all of the people who agreed with me and remained silent for fear of appearing politically incorrect... You're far wiser than me. I'll take a page from your book, and let this go.


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[Affiche]

Ughhh you've said your piece, you mean. Come on, man.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

^^^^^^^^lol

 

[BlackDynamite]

Ughhh you've said your piece, you mean. Come on, man.

No.


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[tantacles]

Closing thread as it has essentially devolved into a discussion of the merits of a URM status. See Lee's post here:

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/anonymity-bedside-manners-and-sdn-membership.1176729/