Is BUMC's fellowship match list for real...

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Scaredshizzles

Full Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
694
Reaction score
7
2009 placement for cards, for example..

Cardiology
Beth-Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston MA
Cleveland Clinic, Ohio
Dartmouth College of Medicine
Drexel University, Philadelphia
Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston MA
UMDNJ
University of Massachusetts

And they have had very strong years in GI and heme-onc in the past too...

Almost sounds too good to be BU...I mean this would easily compare to many other programs that would be consider top 15-20 programs.

Members don't see this ad.
 
2009 placement for cards, for example..

Cardiology
Beth-Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston MA
Cleveland Clinic, Ohio
Dartmouth College of Medicine
Drexel University, Philadelphia
Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston MA
UMDNJ
University of Massachusetts

And they have had very strong years in GI and heme-onc in the past too...

Almost sounds too good to be BU...I mean this would easily compare to many other programs that would be consider top 15-20 programs.

I have interviewed at BU this year. The program is fantastic.

I think the reason for the fellowship matches is -

1. They work their asses off in 1st year, and they become extremely competent physicians. This reputation for BU has gotten around academic circles, who now know what they are getting when they hire a BU graduate. BUMC clearly sees a majority of the indigent population in Boston, and residents are the first contact physician in many cases, which makes them phenomenal in patient care.

2. Being front loaded, things ease off in PGY2 and PGY3. A lot of residents up to 8 months of research (many a times with ambulatory blocks), with up to 3 months of protected research time in PGY2.

3. The PD clearly looks like an advocate for residents.

Another angle to this is that many residents apply in PGY3, not PGY2, so the extra year is obviously used to do more research, build more contacts.

BUMC was the hidden gem of my interview trail so far, and it was the program that moved the most on my rank order list. Most of the others pretty much stayed where they were.
 
I have interviewed at BU this year. The program is fantastic.

I think the reason for the fellowship matches is -

1. They work their asses off in 1st year, and they become extremely competent physicians. This reputation for BU has gotten around academic circles, who now know what they are getting when they hire a BU graduate. BUMC clearly sees a majority of the indigent population in Boston, and residents are the first contact physician in many cases, which makes them phenomenal in patient care.

2. Being front loaded, things ease off in PGY2 and PGY3. A lot of residents up to 8 months of research (many a times with ambulatory blocks), with up to 3 months of protected research time in PGY2.

3. The PD clearly looks like an advocate for residents.

Another angle to this is that many residents apply in PGY3, not PGY2, so the extra year is obviously used to do more research, build more contacts.

BUMC was the hidden gem of my interview trail so far, and it was the program that moved the most on my rank order list. Most of the others pretty much stayed where they were.

Well I guess my question is why is it such a "hidden gem." Why isn't it considered a top 20 or even top 25 program, generally?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Well I guess my question is why is it such a "hidden gem." Why isn't it considered a top 20 or even top 25 program, generally?

1. It is overshadowed by the other Boston programs. If BU was in another city, it would get a lot more attention.

2. A very popular adage on SDN is that "reputation in academics lasts for long". BU has historically had a reputation of overworking its residents and being a malignant program. Even current residents agree with this. However, they say that was 5-6 years ago. With the new PD and strict work hour regulations, things are under control. And BU is now freeing itself of the shackles slowly, so to speak.
 
Well I guess my question is why is it such a "hidden gem." Why isn't it considered a top 20 or even top 25 program, generally?

Rankings are subjective and are more often than not are geared towards research dollar. BU is not ranked higher because it's TOTAL research dollar is relatively lower than the other institutions in Longwood given the relatively smaller faculty. That said, BU is still a rather large research institution and has one of the highest research per capital.

BU produces excellent clinicians and their departments are very strong. Cardiology, GI, Endo, Rheumatology are very very strong. Look at their faculty list and publications. The BU/BMC residents have a lot of contacts and networks to other programs through the faculties.

As to your statement of "too good to be true" is confusing because BU has a strong reputation. People often think "Harvard" must be better is simply not true. One needs to evaluate the actual substance of training and clinical care.

Best wishes in your search for the perfect program for you.

FYI: I am an attending and a HMS grad and trained in the Boston Harvard programs. I have frequent dealings with BU and BWH faculties and residents.
 
Last edited:
its the 4th best hospital in boston..which is why i didn't apply there..but had i known their matches were that strong, definitely would have considered it
 
BU has a lot of reputation for being a strong clinical training program. We work at the VA where we work with our peers from Brigham and BI. It would be clearly visible how clinically competant BU residents are and how residents from other programs regret about the lack of autonomy that they dont get which BU strongly has.

BU residents can easily make a lot of connections at BU and Brigham in finding mentors.
BU has extremely strong research funding with Framingham heart, Inflammatory Bowel disease , and apex pulmonary hypertension center , amyloid center and many more.


Considering the wide variety of clinical rotations that house staff gets , BU residents are very well respected in the community.

BU might have been malignant in the past but over last few yrs it has never overworked their house staff and gives ample research time from 1st yr to final yr varying from 3 months to 5 months each yr.

FYI:Housestaff in Medicine at BUMC
 
Last edited:
I have interviewed at BU this year. The program is fantastic.

I think the reason for the fellowship matches is -

1. They work their asses off in 1st year, and they become extremely competent physicians. This reputation for BU has gotten around academic circles, who now know what they are getting when they hire a BU graduate. BUMC clearly sees a majority of the indigent population in Boston, and residents are the first contact physician in many cases, which makes them phenomenal in patient care.

2. Being front loaded, things ease off in PGY2 and PGY3. A lot of residents up to 8 months of research (many a times with ambulatory blocks), with up to 3 months of protected research time in PGY2.

3. The PD clearly looks like an advocate for residents.

Another angle to this is that many residents apply in PGY3, not PGY2, so the extra year is obviously used to do more research, build more contacts.

BUMC was the hidden gem of my interview trail so far, and it was the program that moved the most on my rank order list. Most of the others pretty much stayed where they were.

Agreed - from that perspective, BU was one of the most pleasant surprises of my interview trail thus far. If your goal is to be a rockstar clinician while also pretty well placed for a fellowship match, then BU is arguably a better fit than some of the "name" hospitals in the Boston area.

Disclaimer: I had mixed feelings after my interview. PM me if you want more information about this. ResidentMD already knows my story 😉
 
Almost sounds too good to be BU...I mean this would easily compare to many other programs that would be consider top 15-20 programs.

BU is not entirely consistent in fellowship placement as the 2008 cardiology placement was:

Cardiology
BMC (2)
University of Chicago

That is pretty low for such a large residency class. Fact is, BUMC is the not one of the top hospitals in town. BU has been hyping up for years that their clinicians are "competent" and that you will learn to be a competent clinician there. This is more propaganda than anything else. The BUMC academic side of the program isn't that great, and their board passage rate isn't as good as other programs in town.

Fact is, the health care that patients receive at BUMC is pretty much mediocre (when compared to other hospitals), and the hospital continues to have trouble attracting top notch faculty. Believe me, after rounding on the medicine service there I wouldn't send my family members to that hospital as the atmosphere is pretty malignant. Some BUMC residents place at fellowships at other hospitals in town, such as MGH, but this more due to the fact that MGH gets a lot of applications from people who want to stay in Boston than with any thing special about BU.

BU has cultivated this image that they are the "tough city hospital" that somehow provides really tough residency training so you become "competent" quickly (how again does an intern become quicklly competent??) . . . however, I have seen several BU residents use racial slurs, harass students, and act generally lazy. They are on the decline and the quality of their residents is average. A surprising number of BUMC residents have trouble getting fellowships.

While the hospital claims that they are advocating "exceptional care without exception" they filed a lawsuit to get more $$ from the free care pool as they are complaining that they aren't reimbursed for the indigent care they provide. I feel that the BUMC attitude is more one of public espousing their supposed commitment to serving indigent patients, while trying to financially gouge the system. When working at BUMC you will see how there isn't a daily commitment to help underserved patients, and that it operates like a mediocre medicine program.

Remember, the hard work you do as a resident in IM will get you a great residency spot, life is too short to go to a malignant program like BU in the hopes of it helping you get a fellowship spot, many other IM programs offer superior training to BU's! BU is still very much operating in the "trial by fire" mode, meaning the faculty is not generally on the side of the resident but rather focus on what residents give them, i.e. low-cost work over what they can teach them. Believe me, there are plenty of BU interns which have obviously deficiencies. . . If you want to work with friendlier people the don't go to BUMC for residency!
 
Last edited:
its the 4th best hospital in boston..which is why i didn't apply there..but had i known their matches were that strong, definitely would have considered it

See my post above, some years their matches aren't that great at all. In the end, if you work hard you in residency you will get a great fellowship match if you go to a decent IM program, of which there are many. Many come to BU perhaps with an idea that it is somehow good being a Boston IM program, this is not necessarily an advantage as they have identifiable problems in key areas . . . the hospital itself is not very distinguished in terms of actual medical care provided, and their clinical training program lags behind what is being done at other IM programs.
 
As to your statement of "too good to be true" is confusing because BU has a strong reputation. People often think "Harvard" must be better is simply not true. One needs to evaluate the actual substance of training and clinical care.

Generally speaking, Harvard has vastly greater research resources than BU . . . and I have looked at a variety of clinical care studies over the years and have noticed that BU is pretty much as mediocre medical center in terms of patient care.

It is "too good to be true" as BU pretty much has an active propaganda machine in place which touts the superiority of their "hard core" IM program. There is a reason why they have to espouse their program as being "competent" as they are "excellent" in terms of real patient care outcomes. I will summarize these findings and post the info.

I don't have a dog in this race, I never considered doing IM at BUMC due to poor reputation and personal experience, but I find their insistence that they some produce excellent clinicians through a hard core experience to be silly when many IM programs operate in the same manner, and in fact I think it is misleading to describe themselves in this manner in order to attract hardworking types (which the institution needs more of) . . .
 
Last edited:
1. They work their asses off in 1st year, and they become extremely competent physicians. This reputation for BU has gotten around academic circles, who now know what they are getting when they hire a BU graduate. BUMC clearly sees a majority of the indigent population in Boston . . .

BU does not see a "majority" of indigent in Boston, not by a long shot, they see like maybe 10-15% of the patient in Boston, remember there are other hospitals that see indigent patients, such as MGH, Tufts, U. Mass, Lahey clinic, B&W, . . . BU is the most "vocal" about their indigent care, while in fact they are filing a lawsuit to get more money for the "exceptional care" they provide to indigent patients, plain and simple it is a business to them. You will see fantastic cases and have great learning experiences at the other hospitals in Boston.

Let me guess, BU told you how well regarded their residents are? This doesn't mean much as BU doesn't have a great national reputation, Harvard affiliates do have this rep, BU propaganda is that their residents are somehow competent due to excessive work conditions and "old school" teaching methods. Well, other hospitals in Boston aren't visiting BU to see how they produce so-called "competent" residents. LOL.

Don't buy a program which touts its reputation to visiting applicants!

(I actually started laughing when I read this as they have been spouting the same "reputation" stuff for well over ten years! Maybe if they repeat it enought to students/residents/applicants they hope someone will believe it!)
 
Last edited:
1. It is overshadowed by the other Boston programs. If BU was in another city, it would get a lot more attention.

BU's own propaganda is an effort to set themselves apart from the Harvard affiliates, which really do have a blockbuster reputation. However, they do this by putting down other programs, such as insinuating that they somehow provide super-superior excellent resident education, which by many accounts they do not and they are a middle of the road hospital in terms of patient care. They DO have an inferiority complex and have invented a fantasy image of themselves as being a hard core inner city hospital that magically produces "super competent" IM residents. . .

If it is too good to be true, then it probably is.

Ask them what they could do better and they might draw a blank. Sort of like when Bush was asked what mistakes he made after two terms in office that didn't go so well and he couldn't come up with much.
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
BU does not see a "majority" of indigent in Boston, not by a long shot, they see like maybe 10-15% of the patient in Boston, remember there are other hospitals that see indigent patients, such as MGH, Tufts, U. Mass, Lahey clinic, B&W, . . . BU is the most "vocal" about their indigent care, while in fact they are filing a lawsuit to get more money for the "exceptional care" they provide to indigent patients, plain and simple it is a business to them. You will see fantastic cases and have great learning experiences at the other hospitals in Boston.

Let me guess, BU told you how well regarded their residents are? This doesn't mean much as BU doesn't have a great national reputation, Harvard affiliates do have this rep, BU propaganda is that their residents are somehow competent due to excessive work conditions and "old school" teaching methods. Well, other hospitals in Boston aren't visiting BU to see how they produce so-called "competent" residents.

Don't buy a program which touts its reputation to visiting applicants!

(I actually started laughing when I read this as they have been spouting the same "reputation" stuff for well over ten years! Maybe if they repeat it enought to students/residents/applicants they hope someone will believe it!)

I have nothing in this because I am a current applicant. If at all, I should be cursing BU on this forum, so that I can rank them 1 and no one else does.

I see you have 4 posts on this forum, and all 4 are criticizing BU. There is always a speculation when someone creates an account only to criticize a program. Can you clarify your current position? Are you a -
1. Current resident/fellow/faculty/graduate from BU?
2. " from Boston?
Where have you taken your fellowship list from?

So you mean to tell me -
1. That BU is giving interview candidates false fellowship match lists on their interview date?
2. Current residents are lying to all applicants (propaganda style) that their program is much better, they work hard but enjoy working, and they feel comfortable getting into a fellowship of their choice?
3. They are lying that they have been able to work with any faculty of their interest in the second and third years, and have people make them calls to get into programs of their choice? Why dont they tell the truth that they dont get time to do any research in their first year?

Then why did they tell me they get worked really hard in first year, but realize its a part of it because the program IS front loaded, and there is so much more to gain in second and third year?

Why did I feel the cameraderie amongst the housestaff was the best I had seen on the trail till date?

If residents were unhappy, you would see it. I did not see it on my interview day.

Again, I am not supporting BU for any reason. If indeed they are lying online and to applicants about their fellowship matches, definitely it should be taken up.

Lastly, I did not find a single BU resident on my interview day that spoke badly about other programs in Boston (well maybe one program - wont name that one, but its not in the top 2 Boston programs).

I just have an issue about someone who creates an account without identifying himself/herself and blatantly criticizes another program.
 
We work at the VA where we work with our peers from Brigham and BI.

BU residents can easily make a lot of connections at BU and Brigham in finding mentors.

I would say that plenty of IM programs offer "autonomy" and prepare residents for getting their fellowship of choice, BU is not so unique in this manner. While having autonomy is good, equally important is having involved attendings who care about teaching.

I would strongly disagree that it is easy to get connections with attendings at the Harvard affiliated hospitals while working at BU for the simple fact that you are not a Harvard affiliated resident when you are at BU.

Finding a mentor at BU can be very disheartening, believe me, I know. I have had faculty who I wanted to start a project with as a student not show up to scheduled meetings, and also act very disinterested. Sure, you could get a research project, but the attitude at BU is that you should be working instead of pursuing interests oblique to medicine like public health or basic research projects. BU is trying to build up a clinical research program to get $$, mostly to get grants and perform clinical trials than for original research, but this is still an unrealized effort.
 
Last edited:
I have nothing in this because I am a current applicant. If at all, I should be cursing BU on this forum, so that I can rank them 1 and no one else does.

Where have you taken your fellowship list from?

So you mean to tell me -
1. That BU is giving interview candidates false fellowship match lists on their interview date?
2. Current residents are lying to all applicants (propaganda style) that their program is much better, they work hard but enjoy working, and they feel comfortable getting into a fellowship of their choice?
3. They are lying that they have been able to work with any faculty of their interest in the second and third years, and have people make them calls to get into programs of their choice? Why dont they tell the truth that they dont get time to do any research in their first year?

Where have I gotten the fellowship list from?? I got it from the BU website! Googlize it ( the Googlie-lizer is located at http://www.google.com ;-) ), the program has them posted. This was for the 2008 cardiology fellowship match (hey the one posted was 2009, but I know that they don't always have such a solid match), so I posted that as I know people who have had trouble getting the fellowship they want there. Obviously what I posted was just for 2008 cardiology wise . . . sorry for the confusion if you thought this was the whole list.

Cardiology (Places BU residents matched for cardiology in 2008)
BMC (2)
University of Chicago

Hey, take what you hear on interview days with a grain of salt, when residents walk around prospective applicants they talk up the school, they have a vested interest in spreading the word that they have a great rep, obviously, so that they get the fellowship they want. Please, you need to look and ask questions at ALL interviews to get the real story.

All I am saying is that I read this post about BU and felt that it was an inaccurate portrail of the residency program, yes, there is more "time" to do research, but some faculty are still unhelpful when it comes to helping people do research. If you can feel camraderie after a day of being somewhere then more power to you, . . . however, the faculty/resident interaction is not the best there.

Talk what you hear from all sources with a grain of salt, especially any program you interview at as of course everybody is giddy on interview day and the real attitude of faculty comes out at a later time. All I want to say is that there are attitudes and business practices at BU that don't seem right, or with patient care at heart, and that in reality BUMC doesn't have that great a reputation clinically, but their IM residency program always claims that it does . . . I find their claims ridiculous.

There is another thread where a fourth year on the interivew trails says that she was told by current residents that they are worked over the 80 hours limit AND that the place is malignant by current residents.

My biggest issue was the residents/attendings don't treat patients in a humane manner, i.e. they become the case of CHF exacerbation in room 47, not a person with a complex disease process who needs tailored medical treatment, you WILL become good at raming patients through the system at BUMC, but I don't think you will become a caring physician and frankly you won't get good teaching although you may get slightly more hands on experience. From my perspective, BU does have the attitude that "book learning" and bedside teaching isn't as important as just having residents go do things on their own, the teaching is not good at BU and the environment was/is pressure cooker, i.e. yelling and intimidation to help you "learn."

The faculty at BU won't do the heavy lifting when it comes to being supportive of trainees. Mentoring is poor and bedside teaching is overall subpar. I have seen institutions with a poorer "reputation" than BU do a much better job at teaching AND do better clinical care. I have heard only people affiliated with BU say it has an "excellent" clinical reputation, . . . based on what?? I have observed quite the opposite.
 
Last edited:
My biggest issue was the residents/attendings don't treat patients in a humane manner, i.e. they become the case of CHF exacerbation in room 47, not a person with a complex disease process who needs tailored medical treatment, you WILL become good at raming patients through the system at BUMC, but I don't think you will become a caring physician and frankly you won't get good teaching although you may get slightly more hands on experience. From my perspective, BU does have the attitude that "book learning" and bedside teaching isn't as important as just having residents go do things on their own, the teaching is not good at BU and the environment was/is pressure cooker, i.e. yelling and intimidation to help you "learn."

This is to some extent the case at the majority of hospitals in this country. That kind of depersonalization has become typical, it is both emotionally protective and convenient due to heavy patient loads.
 
Where have I gotten the fellowship list from?? I got it from the BU website! Googlize it ( the Googlie-lizer is located at http://www.google.com ;-) ), the program has them posted. This was for the 2008 cardiology fellowship match (hey the one posted was 2009, but I know that they don't always have such a solid match), so I posted that as I know people who have had trouble getting the fellowship they want there. Obviously what I posted was just for 2008 cardiology wise . . . sorry for the confusion if you thought this was the whole list.

Cardiology (Places BU residents matched for cardiology in 2008)
BMC (2)
University of Chicago

Hey, take what you hear on interview days with a grain of salt, when residents walk around prospective applicants they talk up the school, they have a vested interest in spreading the word that they have a great rep, obviously, so that they get the fellowship they want. Please, you need to look and ask questions at ALL interviews to get the real story.

All I am saying is that I read this post about BU and felt that it was an inaccurate portrail of the residency program, yes, there is more "time" to do research, but some faculty are still unhelpful when it comes to helping people do research. If you can feel camraderie after a day of being somewhere then more power to you, . . . however, the faculty/resident interaction is not the best there.

Talk what you hear from all sources with a grain of salt, especially any program you interview at as of course everybody is giddy on interview day and the real attitude of faculty comes out at a later time. All I want to say is that there are attitudes and business practices at BU that don't seem right, or with patient care at heart, and that in reality BUMC doesn't have that great a reputation clinically, but their IM residency program always claims that it does . . . I find their claims ridiculous.

There is another thread where a fourth year on the interivew trails says that she was told by current residents that they are worked over the 80 hours limit AND that the place is malignant by current residents.

My biggest issue was the residents/attendings don't treat patients in a humane manner, i.e. they become the case of CHF exacerbation in room 47, not a person with a complex disease process who needs tailored medical treatment, you WILL become good at raming patients through the system at BUMC, but I don't think you will become a caring physician and frankly you won't get good teaching although you may get slightly more hands on experience. From my perspective, BU does have the attitude that "book learning" and bedside teaching isn't as important as just having residents go do things on their own, the teaching is not good at BU and the environment was/is pressure cooker, i.e. yelling and intimidation to help you "learn."

The faculty at BU won't do the heavy lifting when it comes to being supportive of trainees. Mentoring is poor and bedside teaching is overall subpar. I have seen institutions with a poorer "reputation" than BU do a much better job at teaching AND do better clinical care. I have heard only people affiliated with BU say it has an "excellent" clinical reputation, . . . based on what?? I have observed quite the opposite.

Given.

So I agree that anyone henceforth interviewing at BU or going for a second look should get all this clarified. And if it is true, please post it here as well. There always is a possibility I could have been starry eyed on my interview day, and I may be wrong - and hopefully thats the purpose of this forum.
 
Finding a mentor at BU can be very disheartening, believe me, I know. I have had faculty who I wanted to start a project with as a student not show up to scheduled meetings, and also act very disinterested.

Are you a current/former BU med student? I would find it helpful to know how you get your information/perspective on residency at BU.
 
I'm a prelim intern at bumc and will say that i have to agree with most of what thnxforum posted.
Work hours - the hospitals are busy and we routinely cap for admissions, but I can't recall ever hitting my personal cap of 10 (not saying it doesn't happen). I've rarely gone over the 80hr week, the only exceptions were my first week on the wards where I was learning the computer system and, incidentally, a month at the VA where I was on an all-Brigham team. Admin encourages us to log our hours accurately so they can identify problems. Often your resident/co-intern will cover your patients on your overnight call day so you can sleep-in. Post-call, everyone works together to get the intern out by 1. The idea that bu attracts workaholic masochists is silly, we all want to be home for dinner like everyone else.
Malignancy - I went to malignant medical school so I know what that's like. It's not just being busy, it's being intimidated on rounds, overworked and under-taught, surrounded by competitive and backstabbing people, an unsupportive admin that's downright obstructive of career goals. My experience at bu has been the exact opposite, to call it a malignant environment is ridiculous. Intern conference every week is a requirement and we sign out our pagers to our resident. Some attendings teach more, some less, but all the attendings I've had so far have done attending rounds and some degree of bedside teaching.
Patient population - bu does see the poorest and most ethnically diverse pt population in boston, which is a consequence both of its location and its charter which was to serve all pts regardless of ability to pay. Many ppl came here specifically to work with this population, but it might not be for you if you get frustrated working with homeless, non-compliant, drug abusers, or non-english speakers. As a safety-net hospital, bmc historically received money from the state to help cover the cost of the "free care" it provides. With the passage of universal healthcare in Mass, the state has revoked this money but bmc still bears the burden of uncompensated care. So this is what the lawsuit is about and is much more complicated than the above poster seems to understand.
Competency - residents are very competent, on a par with the residents i worked with in med school, i'm sure at the level of most other big IM programs. Since i also worked with brigham residents i can say there is a culture difference in that the brigham residents are definitely more academic, citing articles etc., want to go through the full differentials, and also want to do exhaustive workups. I found this to be excessive and unnecessarily invasive in certain cases, and at times i felt is was more about their ego than doing what was best for the pt. On the whole there was very little practical difference.
Research - can't really comment on that as an intern but residents who want to do it seem to pull it off.
Camraderie - i think the interns and residents get along extremely well and have fun together. There is a weekly barnight usually somewhere in the south end where people can go to unwind.
Food - lunch is provided every weekday 😀
 
I'm a prelim intern at bumc and will say that i have to agree with most of what thnxforum posted.
Work hours - the hospitals are busy and we routinely cap for admissions, but I can't recall ever hitting my personal cap of 10 (not saying it doesn't happen). I've rarely gone over the 80hr week, the only exceptions were my first week on the wards where I was learning the computer system and, incidentally, a month at the VA where I was on an all-Brigham team. Admin encourages us to log our hours accurately so they can identify problems. Often your resident/co-intern will cover your patients on your overnight call day so you can sleep-in. Post-call, everyone works together to get the intern out by 1. The idea that bu attracts workaholic masochists is silly, we all want to be home for dinner like everyone else.
Malignancy - I went to malignant medical school so I know what that's like. It's not just being busy, it's being intimidated on rounds, overworked and under-taught, surrounded by competitive and backstabbing people, an unsupportive admin that's downright obstructive of career goals. My experience at bu has been the exact opposite, to call it a malignant environment is ridiculous. Intern conference every week is a requirement and we sign out our pagers to our resident. Some attendings teach more, some less, but all the attendings I've had so far have done attending rounds and some degree of bedside teaching.
Patient population - bu does see the poorest and most ethnically diverse pt population in boston, which is a consequence both of its location and its charter which was to serve all pts regardless of ability to pay. Many ppl came here specifically to work with this population, but it might not be for you if you get frustrated working with homeless, non-compliant, drug abusers, or non-english speakers. As a safety-net hospital, bmc historically received money from the state to help cover the cost of the "free care" it provides. With the passage of universal healthcare in Mass, the state has revoked this money but bmc still bears the burden of uncompensated care. So this is what the lawsuit is about and is much more complicated than the above poster seems to understand.
Competency - residents are very competent, on a par with the residents i worked with in med school, i'm sure at the level of most other big IM programs. Since i also worked with brigham residents i can say there is a culture difference in that the brigham residents are definitely more academic, citing articles etc., want to go through the full differentials, and also want to do exhaustive workups. I found this to be excessive and unnecessarily invasive in certain cases, and at times i felt is was more about their ego than doing what was best for the pt. On the whole there was very little practical difference.
Research - can't really comment on that as an intern but residents who want to do it seem to pull it off.
Camraderie - i think the interns and residents get along extremely well and have fun together. There is a weekly barnight usually somewhere in the south end where people can go to unwind.
Food - lunch is provided every weekday 😀

IMHO, this is THE reason you are turning off many applicants to BU. You are an excellent training program, but why do you guys trash BWH residents? BWH hasnt build a reputation because they cite articles. I have come to know that the programs at JHU, BWH and MGH train their residents to become phenomenal clinicians, in addition to putting them on a academic career pathway if they want to.

For your knowledge, all the residents I met on the BU interview day had only good things to say about the BWH residents.

What makes me a bit suspicious is why thnxforum wanted to transfer out of BU last year.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=8853870#post8853870
 
IMHO, this is THE reason you are turning off many applicants to BU. You are an excellent training program, but why do you guys trash BWH residents? BWH hasnt build a reputation because they cite articles. I have come to know that the programs at JHU, BWH and MGH train their residents to become phenomenal clinicians, in addition to putting them on a academic career pathway if they want to.

For your knowledge, all the residents I met on the BU interview day had only good things to say about the BWH residents.

What makes me a bit suspicious is why thnxforum wanted to transfer out of BU last year.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=8853870#post8853870

I'm not so sure he was bad mouthing BWH. Definitely there are residency programs where you will get the sense that resources are unlimited and that you only have to concern yourself with what would be best from a purely medical perspective, and not think too much about real world economics. Personally I would rather train at a place like that, use it to learn which procedures/tests/treatments are of most value, and then cut back on them when I'm practicing out in a low SES area based on what I learned about what is indispensible and what is probably superfluous. As opposed to training at a place where you only do the most basic/cost effective things and don't get a broader picture of everything that is available and how things would be done in an ideal setting. But this poster has a different take, and believes in a more practical form of learning...I don't think he meant it to bad mouth BWH residents though. As far as having an academic ego, I think a lot of doctors and smart people in general have one...and a good number of them use that ego as motivation to make sure they know what they are talking about when they speak.
 
I'm not so sure he was bad mouthing BWH. Definitely there are residency programs where you will get the sense that resources are unlimited and that you only have to concern yourself with what would be best from a purely medical perspective, and not think too much about real world economics. Personally I would rather train at a place like that, use it to learn which procedures/tests/treatments are of most value, and then cut back on them when I'm practicing out in a low SES area based on what I learned about what is indispensible and what is probably superfluous. As opposed to training at a place where you only do the most basic/cost effective things and don't get a broader picture of everything that is available and how things would be done in an ideal setting. But this poster has a different take, and believes in a more practical form of learning...I don't think he meant it to bad mouth BWH residents though. As far as having an academic ego, I think a lot of doctors and smart people in general have one...and a good number of them use that ego as motivation to make sure they know what they are talking about when they speak.

That is an excellent point about training in a more academic setting, as opposed to a more "practical setting." I have trained at places that had more resources than BUMC, or at least where there was more thorough work-up done on patients. It was actually surprising as I thought BUMC was a "tertiary" care center, if they are filing a lawsuit to get more $$ for their care of the indigent then maybe something is lacking. In this way, BUMC is like a county hospital where practically is the rule of the day, often repeated at BUMC is "if it sounds like a duck then it IS duck". Rounds are rushed and there isn't much looking at pertinent journals articles as there is at other places.

The attendings at BUMC love to point out the "ambiguity" of internal medicine, such as "We may never know the best way to do something or know what the patient had" type of thinking, but I think it is extreme as less diagnostic workup is done and patients there don't get the care they deserve.

However, you lack what other residents get which is a more in-depth analysis and workup of patients. I remember a lot of cases at BUMC where nobody knew what was going on with a patient and even at discharge what happened to them was a mystery!! I thought this was normal until I saw some awesome diagnosis made at better hospitals where economics weren't such an issue, and these diagnosis helped a lot of patients. Sometimes you do need to do a good job working up patients and ordering some more tests. Indeed, I knew several IM residents who loved to turf patients to a different service or pressed for their discharge from the attending, maybe because of workload, but there was also the attitude that the patient was the problem.

BWH and the other Harvard affiliates are awesome in their care of patients and they are expertly clinically competent. If there is a "tough case" from rural Mass, they get sent to MGH for diagnosis most often, not BUMC. Just look who write the clinical cases in the New England Journal, it is MGH's professors not BUMC. The attendings at BUMC love complaining about how too many people are being screened for breast CA and other conditions . . . but they don't really have a strength when it comes to staying up to date with the current medical literature. Sadly I would say that it is almost anti-academic at BUMC, sure some rare diagnosis are made, but they aren't up to it as much as MGH.

Everybody knows that MGH and other Harvard affiliates actually do produce expertly competent clinicians, actually some of the best in the country, in the end BUMC has been trying desperately to pump up their reputation by insinuating that you can learn just by doing. Sure experience is great, but having great clinical educators helps as well, and BUMC has lost a lot of these over the years.

Again, I think BUMC should do the most to improve itself by treating patients and residents more humanely. I have been at hospitals with much larger and more diverse patient census and there was still time to root for the patient who was going to get a lung transplant or something, whereas at BUMC it was a very "cookie cutter" approach to medicine and resident often dehumanized patients with degrading comments. I haven't seen this anywhere else, so I think the BU IM program has earned its "hard-core" reputation by creating a culture where there isn't a lot of teaching, attendings are detached and abrasive, and moving patients through the system is more important than their care.
 
Last edited:
IMHO, this is THE reason you are turning off many applicants to BU...http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=8853870#post8853870

I'm sorry I really didn't mean to trash the brigham residents or imply they won't be great clinicians. i'm sure they will be because they are mostly very smart people, and using evidence-based medicine is a good thing. in fact i was disagreeing with previous posters who were trying to tout bu residents as superior clinically (I doubt there is much difference amongst any major IM program). But i am entitled to my impression which I maintain. btw i have no idea who thxforum is and, as a prelim, i also have very little personal interest in boosting the reputation of the medicine dept. i'm just trying to help some applicants out there because some of the stuff posted is pretty misleading.
 
I'm sorry I really didn't mean to trash the brigham residents or imply they won't be great clinicians. i'm sure they will be because they are mostly very smart people, and using evidence-based medicine is a good thing. in fact i was disagreeing with previous posters who were trying to tout bu residents as superior clinically (I doubt there is much difference amongst any major IM program). But i am entitled to my impression which I maintain. btw i have no idea who thxforum is and, as a prelim, i also have very little personal interest in boosting the reputation of the medicine dept. i'm just trying to help some applicants out there because some of the stuff posted is pretty misleading.

BU promises a lot, and makes a lot of assumptions about where their program is in relation to other internal medicine programs, but in the end because of work rules there is a limit to how many patients you can see, and I don't think BU's im residents are necessarily superior clinically as BU has touted for years through a variety of program directors. Essentially BU is a bare-boned IM program, medium to large in size with some academics, of which there are probably over a hundred similarly ranked im programs.

The patient quality studies I have read don't place BUMC as a top hospital nationwide in terms of patient care, so I have an issue with them saying that they produce "clinically excellent" IM residents . . . years ago it was "clinically competent" and "very solid clinically". There clearly isn't justified and it is just the "party line". In the end it is an average IM program in many ways, to say that the traning will make you "clinically excellent" implies better than average, which is not the case, and there is alot that could be done to make the program truly "excellent."
 
Here's an article about the financial "problems" at BUMC, the hospital does seem to have an attitude that they are entitled to receive a certain amount of funding for indigent care, despite having considerable cash reserves and considering how the economy tanked. This rankles my nerves as some attendings make inappropriate comments about poorer patients at BUMC and don't give them the respect that patients with private health insurance get. In fact, the poorer patients were required at some to use a delapidated part of the hospital separate from private insurance patients.

I do care about providing care to indigent patients, but BU seems a little entitled filing a lawsuit when there are many hospitals facing budget problems and there is a lot of optimization that could save costs at BUMC.

Boston Medical sues state for funds

Hospital says money was used to finance health law

By Liz Kowalczyk, Globe Staff | July 16, 2009
Boston Medical Center filed suit yesterday against the state, accusing officials of illegally cutting payments made to the hospital for treating thousands of poor patients,a decision executives saidcould financially unravel the urban hospital's key services.
The 26-page complaint - filed in Suffolk Superior Court against Dr. JudyAnn Bigby, health and human services secretary - follows two years of payment negotiations between the state and its largest provider of medical care to poverty-stricken families. It argues that the state has financed its landmark health insurance law, a model for national healthcare overhaul, on the backs of poor residents by cutting money to the hospital that cares for many of them to pay for expanded coverage.
The lawsuit could influence the national debate on healthcare by warning of the potential repercussions for hospitals that treat the poor."This absolutely has implications for the national debate,'' said Larry Gage, president of the National Association of Public Hospitals.
Bigby, in a statement to the Globe last night, said: "The administration is greatly disappointed that BMC, which has received $1.5 billion in state funding in the past year, has chosen this path. At a time when everyone funded and served by state government is being asked to do more with less, BMC has been treated no differently.
"We are confident that the administration's actions in this area comply with all applicable law and will be upheld,'' she said.
In interviews with the Globe last week, state officials questioned BMC's request for more funding, consideringthe state's extraordinary budget crisis and the hospital's large cash reserves.

The $1.5 billion the state paid the hospital in the past year went not just to the hospital, but also to its community health centers and health insurance plan, officials said.
BMC - where half of the patients earn less than $20,000 annually, 30 percent do not speak English, and one-third are on Medicaid - estimates that it will lose $175 million in the fiscal year starting Oct. 1, an 18 percent operating loss. By the end of this year, the hospital is likely to be $38 million in the red, its first loss in five years.
Hospital executives blame these projected losses on the state's decision to slash the amount it pays BMC for treating a Medicaid patient in the hospitalfrom $12,476 per admission last year to $9,323 this year and for paying what the hospital considers inadequate rates to care for uninsured patients and newly insured patients.
The state calculated the new Medicaid rate by considering the average cost of caring for Medicaid patients at Massachusetts hospitals, and paying 75 percent of that amount to encourage efficiency, the lawsuit says.
BMC argues this approach is illegal, because a 1991 law requires the state to pay hospitals that treat large numbers of poor patients based on each institution's unique financial needs and BMC's need is great. The hospital employs 75 translators, more than any other Boston hospital, and treats nearly 70 percent of the city's trauma cases, among other added expenses required to care patients from the city's poorest neighborhoods.
The hospital also argues in the lawsuit that the state has acted illegally in several other ways, resulting in it paying 64 cents for every $1 BMC spends treating the poor.
Under the 1995 law that formed BMC, the hospital is required to serve vulnerable populations.
"There are certainly instances where individual doctors say, ‘We're not getting enough money for seeing patients,' '' saidformer US attorney Donald Stern, whom the hospital hired to argue its case. "The courts have been fairly cool to that argument, partly because [Medicaid] is a voluntary program. We're different. We're required by the state . . . to continue to treat these patients.''
In an interview last week, the state's Assistant Secretary of Health and Human Services Terry Dougherty acknowledged that the hospital will receive significantly less next year for treating Medicaid, uninsured, and newly insured patients. But he said, BMC has sizable reserves, about $190 million in unrestricted cash, according to the hospital.
And, he said, the hospital's costs are 20 to 30 percent higher than those at similar hospitals, suggesting that cost savings are possible.
The hospital's successful building campaign has also drawn attention, particularly from legislators who represent communities with struggling hospitals in worse shape than BMC.
Hospital vice president Tom Traylor said the state, in calculating BMC's costs, considered small teaching hospitals like Caritas Carney in Dorchester and Mount Auburn in Cambridge. But in an analysis the hospital commissioned, Bain Capital compared BMC to major Boston teaching hospitals and found its costs to be average, he said.
Gage, the National Association of Public Hospitals president, said many public and private hospitals have filed lawsuits against states and the federal government over Medicaid rates. But, he said, the BMC lawsuit is unusual because of the broader context of health reform.
One problem with the Massachusetts approach, Gage believes, is the state too quickly phased out special payments to BMC and Cambridge Hospital for treating the poor. These payments are now being used to subsidize health coverage for thousands of newly insured residents. His organization advised Congress to phase out payments to so-called safety-net hospitals more slowly, an approach the House is advocating, he said.
The Massachusetts law was supposed to raise Medicaid rates and did for some hospitals, but not for BMC. The hospital said in its lawsuit that the state has not paid it millions of dollars in special payments it was supposed to get over three years as the health insurance law was implemented.
"The magnitude of BMC's problems are unusual,'' Gage said. "There isn't any other state where all these payments have gone away at once.''
It was unclear if the state and the hospital will continue negotiations, now the courts are involved. But hospital officials signaled that they would be willing to meet. "We want to fix this,'' Traylor said.
dingbat_story_end_icon.gif
 
Not sure why I am even posting as this seems so very personal for Celiox and I don't want to minimize that in any way.

----------------------------------

The issue with BMC not getting it's MA state subsidy seems far removed from the quality or lack thereof in the residency program. While I can understand the dissapointment you might experience when you realize that it takes money and not just good will to actually provide healthcare services to people with the current state of affairs this is nothing more than a fact and you can't blame BMC for that. Many hospitals out there especially the teaching ones in urban areas are totally dependent on their state and federal subsidies for indigent care and it seems BMC is even more so as the are legally required to provide such care at least according to the article you quoted. While you clearly have experienced issues that make you question BMC's dedication to their mission statement I don't neccesarily see how BMC suing the state augments your argument.

Just look who write the clinical cases in the New England Journal, it is MGH's professors not BUMC.

The section from the NEJM that the OP is referring to is officially titled "Case Records from the Massachusetts General Hospital" and these cases are authored by professors whom work at MGH.
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry I really didn't mean to trash the brigham residents or imply they won't be great clinicians. i'm sure they will be because they are mostly very smart people, and using evidence-based medicine is a good thing. in fact i was disagreeing with previous posters who were trying to tout bu residents as superior clinically (I doubt there is much difference amongst any major IM program). But i am entitled to my impression which I maintain. btw i have no idea who thxforum is and, as a prelim, i also have very little personal interest in boosting the reputation of the medicine dept. i'm just trying to help some applicants out there because some of the stuff posted is pretty misleading.

Okay given. I think I over-reacted because I have heard of a few applicants getting turned off by BU residents bad-mouthing other Boston programs. Whether BU residents are superior clinically or not, I cant comment; but I think residents on the trail are honest about how they feel regarding their clinical competency (and there are ways to tease the answers out of them - you just need to ask the right questions 😉 ) and I felt BU residents felt competent enough. Sorry for overreacting.

Are you a current/former BU med student? I would find it helpful to know how you get your information/perspective on residency at BU.
Celiox, it would be good if you could answer this question. Not pointing fingers, it would just lend more credibility to your arguments.
 
I'm not so sure he was bad mouthing BWH. Definitely there are residency programs where you will get the sense that resources are unlimited and that you only have to concern yourself with what would be best from a purely medical perspective, and not think too much about real world economics. Personally I would rather train at a place like that, use it to learn which procedures/tests/treatments are of most value, and then cut back on them when I'm practicing out in a low SES area based on what I learned about what is indispensible and what is probably superfluous. As opposed to training at a place where you only do the most basic/cost effective things and don't get a broader picture of everything that is available and how things would be done in an ideal setting.

wow it's attitudes like this that are bankrupting healthcare in this country. First of all, you don't learn to think critically when you pan-scan and pan-test everything that walks in the door. Second of all, there is no economic or other limitation on the tests/procedures/treatments available at bmc. In fact these things bring in money and stave off lawsuits, just like everywhere else, and if anything they should be massively reduced at bmc to be more along the lines of europe and canada where outcomes are better but spending is less. Tests for things very far down on a differential I don't think should be done just to satisfy academic curiosity until the more likely things are ruled out. Lines should not be inserted for practice. I think this is appropriate and what i would want for a family member of mine.
 
wow it's attitudes like this that are bankrupting healthcare in this country. First of all, you don't learn to think critically when you pan-scan and pan-test everything that walks in the door. Second of all, there is no economic or other limitation on the tests/procedures/treatments available at bmc. In fact these things bring in money and stave off lawsuits, just like everywhere else, and if anything they should be massively reduced at bmc to be more along the lines of europe and canada where outcomes are better but spending is less. Tests for things very far down on a differential I don't think should be done just to satisfy academic curiosity until the more likely things are ruled out. Lines should not be inserted for practice. I think this is appropriate and what i would want for a family member of mine.

It is not just a matter of money, BUMC can and does waste (obtain?) extra money by ordering excessive tests. Plenty of excessive cardiology exams are ordered at BUMC, . . . but rather it is more of a less rigorous approach to diagnosis and patient care at BU, such as less articles discussed on rounds and less indepth discussion/teaching, it is very, very, much a sink or swim type attitude with little emphasis on teaching. This hurts patients as their care is not as closely discussed/analyzed in some situations at BUMC and I would never send a family member to BUMC just because critical clinical management skills are not emphasized enough.

I rarely saw a BU resident offer an alternative diagnosis, or suggest a test (expensive or not) it was more of "What is Dr. So-and-so going to do?? When did the exercise results come back? What are they waiting for and why don't they discharge the patient? Oh well, I guess whatever rheum wants to do is OK as I don't get it." The general medicine residents at BUMC are NOT expert managers of patient care, but rather get expert at moving the system along and working the system instead of learning when an expensive test is justified an so on. I identified this as a problem immediately. In fact, a lot of general medicine attendings don't even "get" what the specialty services are doing for patients and put them down thinking they don't have a reason for a test. Not enough discussion and huge communication problems.
 
Last edited:
BUMC is no stranger to legal problems, they had to pay money to the government due to over billing for emergency services:

Boston Medical Center settles lawsuit over billing


The Massachusetts Attorney General's office has announced Boston Medical Center has agreed to pay $600,000 to settle allegations it overcharged the state for emergency services provided to low-income patients. The hospital and its East Boston Neighborhood Health Center will also begin talks with the state about improving emergency services. Attorney General Martha Coakley's suit alleged Boston Medical overcharged the Massachusetts Uncompensated Care Pool for services provided at the health center from 2003 to 2006.
 
I could help but post this other article as other Boston hospitals which care for indigent patients (more than BUMC actually) believe that BUMC is trying to gouge the state and is taking more than their fair share, some people might not want to do residency at a hospital that is being accused of fraud as well as of soaking funds unfairly from the free care pool. . . I always knew there was something fishy about this deal.

Six Hospitals File Lawsuit Against Massachusetts
BOSTON — Holyoke Medical Center (HMC), Berkshire Medical Center in Pittsfield, and four other community hospitals are suing the Commonwealth for millions of dollars in unreimbursed payment for health care services delivered to residents. The hospitals are known as ‘disproportionate share hospitals' (DSH) because at least 63% of their patients are covered by public insurance. While health care reform has brought the state closer to universal coverage, the unintended consequence of that success is that many DSH hospitals are experiencing significant shortfalls in payments as they treat additional patients whose public insurance doesn't cover the full cost of care. The other four plaintiffs in the lawsuit are Signature Healthcare Brockton Hospital in Brockton, Cape Cod Hospital in Hyannis, Merrimack Valley Hospital in Haverhill, and Quincy Medical Center. The lawsuit was filed on Dec. 1. The hospitals claim that the state has violated a law requiring financial reimbursement equal to the costs of providing care to Medicaid recipients. They say that the state has set Medicare, Medicaid,and other reimbursement rates so low that many of them are facing severe financial distress as they fulfill their state mandate to care for more and more individuals covered by public insurance. Talk of a lawsuit heated up earlier this year when Boston Medical Center, the Commonwealth's largest disproportionate-share hospital, sued the state, accusing it of reneging on promised Medicaid reimbursement rates. However, other hospitals argue that BMC already soaks up too much available funding and, by angling for more through the legal system, could harm other hospitals. As HMC President and CEO Hank Porten recently told BusinessWest, "the concern we had is that, if this proceeded through the litigation or settlement process, Boston Medical Center could end up with a large amount of what's available for disproportionate-share hospitals." The community DSH hospitals that are party to the lawsuit handle nearly four times as many patients covered by government insurance, as measured in patient days, than Boston Medical Center and Cambridge Health Alliance combined. The hospitals provide care for more than 1.5 million patients and handle more than 300,000 emergency care visits annually. Some of them are the only hospital within 25 miles in their communities. "We might not be smart enough to know what amount is fair," Porten said, "but we're smart enough to know that there are at least two definitions of fair now, and we want the legal system to define for us what is fair. We should be paid at Boston Medical Center's rate, or, if we're all being paid at our rate, then Boston Medical Center shouldn't get additional money. We don't begrudge Boston Medical what they've received; we all need the funding. But there has to be some parity. There shouldn't be any difference between the poor of Holyoke and the poor of Boston." The six hospitals in the lawsuit maintain that unfunded mandates have resulted in significant financial losses as well as prevented or delayed investment in capital projects, equipment, and other updated health care resources for their communities.
 
Last edited:
I could help but post this other article as other Boston hospitals which care for indigent patients (more than BUMC actually) believe that BUMC is trying to gouge the state and is taking more than their fair share, some people might not want to do residency at a hospital that is being accused of fraud as well as of soaking funds unfairly from the free care pool. . . I always knew there was something fishy about this deal.
you really have no idea what you're talking about. these are complex political and economic issues that you were clearly unable to make sense of after 5mins of googling and apparently poor reading comprehension. i can't even begin to address the ridiculous statements you've made in the last barrage of posts. i'm sorry you had a bad experience at bmc but what you're doing is malicious and destructive, and i doubt anyone takes you seriously anymore. if anyone has any further questions about bmc they can feel free to PM me.
 
BUMC is no stranger to legal problems, they had to pay money to the government due to over billing for emergency services:

Boston Medical Center settles lawsuit over billing


The Massachusetts Attorney General's office has announced Boston Medical Center has agreed to pay $600,000 to settle allegations it overcharged the state for emergency services provided to low-income patients. The hospital and its East Boston Neighborhood Health Center will also begin talks with the state about improving emergency services. Attorney General Martha Coakley's suit alleged Boston Medical overcharged the Massachusetts Uncompensated Care Pool for services provided at the health center from 2003 to 2006.

That is peanuts...University of Washington paid the largest fine at the time in 2004 for admitted medicare fraud, $35,000,000, this was a "whistle blower case" and the whistle blower walked away from some medical billing job with ~$4 million after taxes. University of Pennsylvania paid ~$30,000,000 in the 1990s. There are many people who believe almost all hospitals are committing medicare fraud. Upcoding, filling out the ROS when you never asked anything, taking another providers obtained Family/Social Hx and putting it on your note. Surgical attendings leaving the OR during surgery if they bill at the attending rates. If someone gets billed for this stuff it is fraudelent. This stuff is rampant. If they only got fined $600,000 for three years worth of auditing they must have been doing a pretty reasonable job of keeping things in check.
 
you really have no idea what you're talking about. these are complex political and economic issues that you were clearly unable to make sense of after 5mins of googling and apparently poor reading comprehension. i can't even begin to address the ridiculous statements you've made in the last barrage of posts. i'm sorry you had a bad experience at bmc but what you're doing is malicious and destructive, and i doubt anyone takes you seriously anymore. if anyone has any further questions about bmc they can feel free to PM me.

I'm sorry you feel my posts are "malicious" and "destructive", and I was half-serious saying people shouldn't go to residency at BUMC because of their financial dealings, I should have been more careful of what I said so I apologize.

I have been following the whole free care pool thing for a while though and always got weird stares from people at BUMC about the whole "deal" with the free care pool when I asked questions, of course it is great that indigent patients get health care, however, the articles stand on their own as primary sources. Other hospitals in Mass provide greater than four times the free care to indigent patients than BUMC but apparently don't get renumerated as much so they are hiring lawyers to file a lawsuit to basically derail the BUMC lawsuit.

Please tell me specifically what in the articles you believe is wrong?!??

I think it is patronizing for you to say to me, and others, that the issues are "complex" and that our reading comprehension isn't up to task! I will let these primary sources stand for themselves. I didn't bring up this issue, but you your discussion of it didn't talk about the other side of the lawsuit so I decided to post about it.

Now, maybe you with your superior reading comprehension could write a multi-page post about the issue of BUMC, the many lawsuits, and the free care pool instead of contributing a couple sentences about it, and personally attacking me.

The personal attacks remind me of something . . . oh yeah, very similar to the attitude of many residents and attendings at BUMC, you do a diservice to your institution by resorting to personal attacks to close debate. Is there anyway to report personal attacks on this site? You gave the appearance of trashing the B&W residents who you described as "mostly pretty smart" which seems to have offended another poster too
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry you feel my posts are "malicious" and "destructive"...

I call BS. There has been a lot of helpful information in this thread, and I think we genuinely want to hear the good and the bad about BU. I appreciate that you've had a negative experience at BU (though you still won't answer the question regarding the context of that experience). But posting multiple articles from the lay press about this lawsuit says nothing about the quality of IM training at BU. I care about training, work hours, resident happiness, the financial solvency of BUMC. But I don't really care if they're suing the state. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder about BU. If you could tell us who you are and why you have this perspective, that would be helpful. But ranting about "malignancy" and "lawsuits" really isn't helpful.
 
I call BS. There has been a lot of helpful information in this thread, and I think we genuinely want to hear the good and the bad about BU. I appreciate that you've had a negative experience at BU (though you still won't answer the question regarding the context of that experience). But posting multiple articles from the lay press about this lawsuit says nothing about the quality of IM training at BU. I care about training, work hours, resident happiness, the financial solvency of BUMC. But I don't really care if they're suing the state. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder about BU. If you could tell us who you are and why you have this perspective, that would be helpful. But ranting about "malignancy" and "lawsuits" really isn't helpful.

I agree with the above in that the posts and the opinions (both positive and negative) have been really helpful. Celiox has made some excellent points as well before this started going down the lawsuit poster lane. I mean, I don't google all current and past lawsuits of any of the IM residency programs I visit, so y BU? I think this discussion is beyond the scope of the assessment of the residency program.

Celiox seems to know the BU residency program to some extent through one or more rotations there. Lets not try to pull a rank on him or forceably try and reveal anyone's identity, most people are uncomfortable saying that. It would be great if we could try and assess all posts like a blinded review process. If we look at this from a scientific journal editor perspective, ideally you wouldn't care who wrote the paper but rather what the paper says. I hope we can give everyone a chance to post with some degree of freedom without personal attacks so that we can develop a more balanced perspective of a program, what one believes is completely upto them.

Now I'm totally stating the obvious here but I think its necessary. An interview itself is such an optimistic best viewpoint of the program, but knowing pertinent negatives which may not be showcased on the day of the interview is equally important, especially if you dont know a resident/MS4 in the program. You can choose not to believe any of it, but it gives you important points to discuss on your interview day (with the exception of the lawsuit discussion 😀)

Looking forward to meeting some of you at the BU interview!
 
If we look at this from a scientific journal editor perspective, ideally you wouldn't care who wrote the paper but rather what the paper says. I hope we can give everyone a chance to post with some degree of freedom without personal attacks so that we can develop a more balanced perspective of a program, what one believes is completely upto them.

I know you are trying to be nice, but I hope that this is not the way you approach journal articles. Knowing the author and their conflicts of interest is about as basic as knowing the type of study involved. This outlook is not the outlook of an editor - more like that of a medical ghostwriter.
 
I know you are trying to be nice, but I hope that this is not the way you approach journal articles. Knowing the author and their conflicts of interest is about as basic as knowing the type of study involved. This outlook is not the outlook of an editor - more like that of a medical ghostwriter.

She should've used the word 'reviewer' instead. But I do support the fact that there mustve been SOMETHING good about celiox's time at BU, which doesnt seem to be coming out in this discussion.
 
I know you are trying to be nice, but I hope that this is not the way you approach journal articles. Knowing the author and their conflicts of interest is about as basic as knowing the type of study involved. This outlook is not the outlook of an editor - more like that of a medical ghostwriter.

Yes I meant to say reviewer, my bad. I just mean to say that a famous author writing a paper vs a newbie shouldn't affect one's judgment of an article. Conflict of interest is an objective and necessary factor but is not what I am talking. 🙂 Some things are best left to anonymity. Isn't that why we all have ids on here?

This is going really tangential from the purpose of this thread so I'll conclude the subject of journal review processes and bring the focus back to BU.😉😍
 
She should've used the word 'reviewer' instead. But I do support the fact that there mustve been SOMETHING good about celiox's time at BU, which doesnt seem to be coming out in this discussion.

Well, I''m sorry if I didn't mention anything positive, so I decided to make a list of the pluses and minuses of the residency program, of course there are pluses, and basically this how I feel about the program:

Pluses:

1. The patient population is diverse, and as mentioned above there are a lot of indigent patients with chronic medical conditions that have a severe degree of progression not seen as frequently in some other populations, and even immigrants who have unusual disease processes. However, I have seen equally diverse patients populations at other hospitals, so BU isn't that unique in this regards, but still is probably top 25% in terms of diverse patient loads, it is pretty much what you would see at a county hospital. If you want to see a very indigent population during residency then this is a good place to go for the patients. I remember a patient with malaria well actually. I loved seeing medicine patients in clinic, I could see myself being their doctor and how I really could make the lives better, but my clinic preceptor was a douche bag who had me on the verge of tears and I had trouble envisioning allowing myself to be harassed just to see the type of patients I cared about.

I actually liked the patient population much more than most of the IM residents who I think were sort of burnt out dealing with social issues and chronic disease processes that can be poorly managed in indigent patients. I think these type of patients are the most interesting, but A LOT of the IM residents don't enjoy this aspect and wanted to move on to their Cards or GI fellowship. I think a lot of residents come to BUMC looking for a place to jump start them on the path to a fancy fellowship and sort of dehumanize the patients as they weren't prepared to deal with BUMC's patient population. Sadly, a lot of residents when I was there complained about how could "never" do general internal medicine at BUMC as a career, way too stressful and hectic (maybe disorganized too), and they all wanted to do GI or Cards more to get away from general medicine than out of a love for cardiology patients. (This was from a chief resident who had to do a chief year to get a fellowship)

Ultimately there were a lot of sad cases, and a lot of patients I wished I could have done a whole lot more for, but a big impediment is pretty much the stuff I listed in the minuses section.

2. The nurses are nice, and generally helpful with patients, and do a good job on the wards. Gotta give them credit as I never had a problem with the nursing staff there. Then again, having a bitter nurse is also a plus from a certain point of view and I work fine with angry nurses.

3. I will list food in the cafeteria as a positive because I never got food poisoning, but not very healthy food served there at any rate i.e. a lot of fried foods and not very tasty at all, but convenient.

Patients: A+ (Great population of patients to care for in Boston, I admit that, I will miss taking care of them a lot).
Nurses: A- (Decent nurses)
Cafeteria: B

Minuses:

1. Teaching is very poor. Attendings do occasionally lecture, but the topics can be poorly selected and it is very much hit and miss. Rounds were described as "working rounds" when I was there, which sadly meant very, very little teaching and more just reporting to attendings who can be very crabby. I very much disliked how I never really discussed my patient as a team, sure there was a grand rounds (not the best) and random lectures, but learning from the bedside is generalized and you don't feel that you have actually learned much after each patient encounter. I have had awesome medicine elective experiences and sub-Is at other institutions and was shocked, literally, to see how much better the teaching was away from BUMC although they tout this. They should know that other institutions are doing a much better job in the teaching department.

2. Lack of respect for residents and students. I have seen some residents really get laid into for basically random events beyond their control. Myself, I spoke up during a morning report when an attending who made an obviously incorrect statement during a sort of informal case presentation. (It was just students and the attending), and he got annoyed and even cut me off, I think when he realized he made a mistake. So basically the program has a history of being very regimented and students and residents are sort of "mistaken" before they open their mouths! Other hospitals aren't this way and the attendings really do care to interact with students in a sort of educational setting than the aloof manner a lot of BU attendings take.

3. Poor mentoring, . . . what can I say? Even if you are interested in IM the faculty seem to be more there just to judge your clerical skills than being able to give good feedback, and they have problems mentoring students/residents as the place is so big there is a malignantly competitive atmosphere. I think I got an eval on a napkin that was barely legible. There are a lot of residents/students, so faculty don't have time or inclination to get to know you as a person.

4. Lack of team work, compared to most other hospitals I have been at this is where BU has a problem, I personally need to feel part of the team and not be harassed, but there is just a feeling that the IM service is just so big that nobody really knows anybody else really well. The atmosphere is not conducive to good patient care or teaching in my opinion, have seen a whole lot of better work environments. The program does feel malignant from my viewpoint, the faculty has an apathy, or attitude, about residents/students, I have never been anywhere, I mean at any hospital, where during a one on one conversation the faculty member doesn't answer my question or looks very annoyed EXCEPT at BU, maybe this is a BU thing as other doctors act more professionally towards their trainees. If you haven't experienced this level of apathy in an educational or hospital setting then you are in for a rude awakening. The faculty can make your time there VERY unpleasant if they want to.

Faculty: F
Teaching: D- (hey, there are lectures, but they aren't the best and the concept of "bedside teaching" is different at BU when compared to some other tertiary care centers.
Teamwork: C-
Atmosphere: D+
Organization: C-
 
Last edited:
Top