I'm a pretty average osteopathic first-year student making some A's and some B's at one of the LECOM campuses. I've been looking into residencies for family med lately, and this is supposedly the least desired and least competitive specialty. K. So like...some of them were saying things like "we get 2500 applications for 8 positions." Wth? How is anyone supposed to match into family med? Is it more competitive than people make it seem? Is it not? It's distressing. I feel like there's still a chance I might not make it after all this work and on top that, not even being in the lower 50% of my class. Can anyone clarify what it's like to go about applying to FM positions. For instance, I tend to look in urban areas. Should I expand my search to less-desirable areas to have a greater chance of matching? Idk what I'm really asking but if anyone can just provide a little insight into how hard it is to match, that'd be cool. Thanks.
Is family medicine residency really this competitive?
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On the trail, programs have told me that they receive anywhere from 1000-2000 applications for 8-16 spots. This is because you have a lot of IMGs, people applying for backups, etc. all applying to family med.
Having interviewed at some of the "best" (this is honestly meaningless but take it for what you will) programs in the country, I can say that most programs will whittle that down to about 100-200 interviews, and they do that by selecting people that (1) they think will fit into the program, (2) don't have too many major redflags (board failures/barely passing, course failures, etc.), and (3) demonstrate both a clear interest and understanding in what FM is through community engagement, etc.
If you can clearly express why you want to do family medicine, and you are free of multiple major red flags (again more than 1 board failure, failing multiple courses, etc.) you'll be fine. Most AMGs apply to 15-50 programs depending on either their app or their region of interest, and they'll go on 12-16 interviews, rank 10-12 programs, and most will match at one of their 1-5 ranks, but again this depends on their apps.
In other words, no its not competitive, but if you really limit yourself to specific programs or specific regions, you may be shooting yourself in the foot. It's better to apply more broadly and ultimately decline interviews if you get too many.
Having interviewed at some of the "best" (this is honestly meaningless but take it for what you will) programs in the country, I can say that most programs will whittle that down to about 100-200 interviews, and they do that by selecting people that (1) they think will fit into the program, (2) don't have too many major redflags (board failures/barely passing, course failures, etc.), and (3) demonstrate both a clear interest and understanding in what FM is through community engagement, etc.
If you can clearly express why you want to do family medicine, and you are free of multiple major red flags (again more than 1 board failure, failing multiple courses, etc.) you'll be fine. Most AMGs apply to 15-50 programs depending on either their app or their region of interest, and they'll go on 12-16 interviews, rank 10-12 programs, and most will match at one of their 1-5 ranks, but again this depends on their apps.
In other words, no its not competitive, but if you really limit yourself to specific programs or specific regions, you may be shooting yourself in the foot. It's better to apply more broadly and ultimately decline interviews if you get too many.
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The number of applications they get is completely meaningless. Don't worry about it.
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We see the same things in Faculty searches. At least 50% of the CVs received for, say, an Anatomy position are from Drosophila geneticists, microbiologists and ion channel physiologists, etc. They get deep-sixed immediately.
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Simple math. Each program has multiple FM positions (~500 programs and ~3000 total positions), so naturally, each program will receive a lot of applications. Add to that the fact that each FM applicant applies to multiple programs (some FMG's apply to 100+ programs). On top of all that, a good number of applicants apply to FM as a "back-up" to minimize their chances of going unmatched. Obviously, the more prestigous the program is the more applications it'll get (many from hopeful individuals that have nearly zero chance at matching such a program but decided to apply anyways).
Kind of like med school application. A given school would receive 6000+ applications for a class of 150 students. More than half of the applicants have no shot at getting accepted while more than half of the other half have no real interest of attending the school. You get the picture.
Kind of like med school application. A given school would receive 6000+ applications for a class of 150 students. More than half of the applicants have no shot at getting accepted while more than half of the other half have no real interest of attending the school. You get the picture.
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Anyone have any thoughts on if a DO student should just take COMLEX or also take USMLE for FM?
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1/2 get trashed instantly in a quick screen.
1/2 of the rest get trashed at the first review.
1/2 of the survivors aren't ranked to interview.
The fact that this can occur in an average non competitive program tells you how many mediocre physicians there are out there.
Don't worry.
Our fellowship gets applications from almost everyone who applies to pediatric anesthesia. Throw in some FMG 2nd time around folks and you're getting 20+ applicants per spot. It all works out in the end.
It's actually even worse than the applicants think because we keep a few spots out of the match for superstars.
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Il Destriero
1/2 of the rest get trashed at the first review.
1/2 of the survivors aren't ranked to interview.
The fact that this can occur in an average non competitive program tells you how many mediocre physicians there are out there.
Don't worry.
Our fellowship gets applications from almost everyone who applies to pediatric anesthesia. Throw in some FMG 2nd time around folks and you're getting 20+ applicants per spot. It all works out in the end.
It's actually even worse than the applicants think because we keep a few spots out of the match for superstars.
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Il Destriero
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FM isn't competitive in general.
There are competitive programs, just like in any other field; but on the whole it's like IM. The majority of folks who want FM, match into FM.
There are competitive programs, just like in any other field; but on the whole it's like IM. The majority of folks who want FM, match into FM.
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Is what I said incorrect? No. People set on getting into IM can generally do it. There are TONS of programs out there.
I didn't make any direct comparison to the competitiveness of "top" IM and FM programs.
Why so sensitive?
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Never change MT...never change!
More than half the Ivy League medical schools have Family Medicine residencies. I can't help it if pointing that out gets your panties in a wad.
You think my post was misleading because you carry around this enormous chip on your shoulder everywhere you go on this site. It taints how you approach people.
Anyone with at least a nominal ability to read the English language and no such shoulder-chip will read that post exactly the way it was written.
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It's ON!!!
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Seriously, these two are always at it....
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Dudes a troll, I'm always going to call him out as one.
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I would pay to see SLC and MT in the same hospital. I'm going to assume that these alternative personalities on the Internet are def not the ones in real life.
Your opinion of meat is something you're entitled to. Feel free to call him whatever you want. However he is most decidedly not a troll. A troll is someone who purposely says controversial things (without actually believing them, usually) for the sole purpose of creating conflict and causing other users to be become irritated. What he does is say his opinion and backs it up with facts. He has been consistent with his views for literally years. The fact that you don't agree with him and frankly don't have the ability to offer reasonable argument does not make him a troll. Words have meaning. If you want to try and use internet specific words at least do it correctly.
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Meat's alright. He's just a bit too raw.
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Say what you want. I'm far from the only one who recognizes MT's motives for posting in Osteo threads.
The mountains of PM's I get from others on this forum can attest to that.
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Lets stay civil guys...
On an other note, I don't understand why FM is not more competitive seeing the kind of offers that docs in the FM forum say they are geting... A lot of these guys/gals say they are getting 200k+/years for 4.5 days of work... Is it the prestige factor that makes FM less appealing? I myself would gladly do FM if it wasn't for OB/peds in the curriculum...
How much OB/peds are incorporated into FM curriculum during residency?
On an other note, I don't understand why FM is not more competitive seeing the kind of offers that docs in the FM forum say they are geting... A lot of these guys/gals say they are getting 200k+/years for 4.5 days of work... Is it the prestige factor that makes FM less appealing? I myself would gladly do FM if it wasn't for OB/peds in the curriculum...
How much OB/peds are incorporated into FM curriculum during residency?
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If you don't want to do any Peds, why would you want to do FM? Just do IM and don't specialize, have your adult clinic or maybe hospitalist work.
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In my program, we have 1 month of inpatient pediatrics, one month outpatient, 1 month of newborn nursery, 1 month pedi ER, 1 month NICU, 1 month Pediatric Urgent Care.
Then there are children in your continuity clinic panel. Plus on OB, since it's family med, you're rounding on mom and baby together when on OB rotations.
OB is 2 months per year. Plus prenatal patients in continuity clinic. Plus a month of gynecology.
Honestly, I like the peds more than I thought I would. I like the OB far less than I did in med school. I don't mind doing it in residency though. I negotiated out of OB duties with my post-residency job.
As far as pay/job offers. I recently signed for 200k/year base salary, with RVU bonus, $30k contract signing bonus, residency stipend for final 2 years of residency, $65k per year loan repayment (for duration of contract), 401k matching, pension program, no-cost health insurance.
Commitment is 3 years.
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I think you both missed the point. The statements that "there are competitive programs" and "FM is like IM" were separate. The former emphasized that there are harder programs to get into, while the latter was about the idea that anyone who applies broadly will likely get a spot somewhere.
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Hey, thanks so much for sharing these details. I was just spitballing possibilities for someone who is looking at going into FM, and what you've shared is almost precisely what I laid out as within the realm of possibility. It is great to see an immediate example demonstrating that I wasn't just making up numbers.
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How common is an offer like this to your resident colleagues? Is this rural?
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Yeah, I think there are things that are atypical about my contract, but mostly it sounds pretty standard from what I gather talking to faculty and other residents.
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My residency is in the northeast. Pretty poor reimbursement across the board for physicians here compared to other regions of the country. Most coresidents are staying out here, and I'm the only one in my class that's found a job (I'm mid-2nd year now). But people I've talked to in the west (where I'm going) seem to feel this was a pretty standard offer.
It is rural, but the biggest difference between this and a contract for an urban/suburban location with the company is the signing bonus, residency stipend (not offered for non-rural contracts) and the loan repayment (half is from the state for rural physician program, so urban/suburban contracts have half the repayment).
But the salary is standard across the board. Bonus structure as well.
I'll also have way more opportunities for RVU's to add to salary since I'll be covering inpatient medicine and ER. That doesn't happen with those other less-rural locations.
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I am considering IM for the reasons you mention, and I think I might like better inpatient medicine than outpatient...
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Isn't quality of life in an IM residency worse however? Like FM seems like they do 50-60 hours a week on a non-crazy month. IM is pretty much supposed to be 80 hours a week of work. Idk if I can do that.
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I guess intern hours might be that high... I was told it's ~60 hrs after intern year...
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Idk how ppl do it tbh. Once I fall under 6 hours of sleep for more than 3 days I turn into a zombie.
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Why is that relevant to someone who is preparing for a career that will last 30+ years?
Put your head down, study, and grind it out for 3 years. Be the best you can be and then find the job and lifestyle you want. If W doesn't want to do peds and OB in the future it's unwise to complete an FM residency when he can just do IM and stick with the adults he wants to work with. He might even decide that he wants to specialize. FM's scoping for dollars is great for the bottom line, and it may provide a valuable service in a rural location, but you're not a GI specialist.
One of my friends did the combined Peds-IM thing. An odd choice to me, why not just go FM? Fast forward a couple of years after residency ended and he's just a pediatrician, which is what he wanted all along but was unwilling to commit to giving up adult medicine. He wanted to keep the doors open to specialization, but never did a fellowship. He learned the hard way, but in retrospect he knew all along.
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Unless you're doing poorly on the NBMEs, then there's no reason not to take the USMLE also (Step 1 and Step 2CK). There are certainly even FM programs that prefer (and a few that require) the USMLE, so you'll have more versatility. Also, what if you find in 3rd year that you actually don't like FM as much as other things? Might as well keep your options open. Again though, you should be doing well on your NBMEs, if not, scrap the idea.
You can certainly match somewhere in FM with COMLEX only, but if you want to be selective, it wouldn't hurt to also have good USMLE scores.
It really depends on the program. I've heard such an extreme range of what you're exposed to with regards to OB from program to program. In the past, you used to have 30/10 delivery requirements for FM, but last July they eliminated the number requirement, because a bunch of programs couldn't attain those because they lacked FM trained faculty with OB privileges. That said, I've been to programs that boast still requiring 30/10 and others that nonchalantly say, yeah everyone easily gets 150/40. You could definitely find non-OB heavy programs though. That said, every FM program will have extensive Gyn training, so not sure your opinion on that.
As far as Peds, you won't be able to avoid O/P Peds in any FM program, and you will likely get NICU/Newborn exposure (again depending on the program though). That said, I/P Peds is really program dependent. Many will rotate through a Children's Hospital for I/P, and when they don't, you honestly will see very little I/P peds, because it practically doesn't exist in many places anymore. Kids aren't getting as sick as they used to and the ones that are go to a specialized hospital. If you're at a county or safety net hospital far from a Children's you might see more, but other than that.
So I guess the answer is that it's really program dependant. That said, if you don't like OB and Peds, don't do FM. If you like O/P, do an IM PC track, those tend to be less competitive, and if you like I/P, there are tons of IM programs that aren't competitive, let alone ones that are.
Yeah, I was worried for a second that I was the only one that read it like that.
Really program dependent. I've seen some FM programs that have 9+ months of inpatient during intern year and 4-6 for the next two years, and that includes ICU, OB, and night float where you're the only one there covering IM, OB and Peds. On those months, you get up close and personal with the 80 hr duty limit. Inpatient heavy FM residencies seem intense honestly.
That said, in most, you'll average 60 hrs/wk accross the training, and honestly I've seens some IM that sound less intense than many FM programs mainly because you don't have to cover OB or Peds. I mean look at a place like Ventura where the FM residents run the traumas. There are even FM programs looking to expand to 4 years.
That said, IM is so I/P heavy, that for the most part you'll just have more heavy months than most FM programs.
Residency anywhere is intense, as it should be. You're training for the rest of your career. While I'm no fan of sleep deprivation, for what needs to happen in residency, sometimes it's not avoidable. Gotta do it, especially in fields as broad as IM and FM.
Really program dependent.
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That's a pretty dismissive way of saying, ya IM residency is going to probably suck. It was also a purely theoretical question since IM really isn't my goal, though chances are I'll be doing an IM intern year.
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Hi! I'm a second year at LECOM Erie. Here taking a break from board study. I'm a nice solid B student, with a rare A mixed in. Pre-clinical grades don't mean much, though.
You will match. LECOM students historically do well in the match, and if you are shooting for FM, you can definitely get where you want to go. In Erie, we have resources for helping students plan for how to get the residency that they want, and I'm sure other campuses have similar. The school will definitely help you think about this and provide guidance and support.
One of the best bits of advice they will give you is to be sure that you do some rotations with the hospitals that you are most interested in, and to do well on those rotations. Even if you can't do a FM rotation at a site that you love, try to work in one of your other rotations there. Use that opportunity to get to know the FM department and to express your interest.
Go to FM conferences and meet residency directors. I had one of the best experiences of my life to date (and that is saying a lot!) at the FMEC conference in Pittsburgh this year. Seriously, it was a peak experience, and I came back from it absolutely hypomanic and fired up about FM. I'd spent the whole conference basking in the presence of people who really GET Family Medicine, who were openly enthusiastic about the specialty and whose joy in their profession was contagious. I had a chance to meet and talk with residents and program directors from programs all over the area that I'm interested in, and to make personal connections with many of them that will absolutely benefit me when I'm on the interview trail.
You don't need to be just one of 2500. You can make yourself that rockstar that they are looking for. When they are screening applications, your name can jump out as someone that they've met, that they've worked with. When you interview at a place where the residents have seen how hard you work? They are going to go to bat for you. You can not only match, you can match well, if you are smart and proactive.
If you want to chat more about this, hit me up. I may not always answer fast, but I will get back to you.
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Also strongly recommend going to the AAFP national conference in KC in 4th year. You'll see literally hundreds of residency programs represented.
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I was breaking hours a fair bit last year. Pushing mid-upper 90's on OB. Wards I went over a few times, but not all that much.
This year, I've definitely had my times putting in 80-90 per week too. Never enough to average out to hours violation, but it definitely happens.
Residency is hard everywhere from what I can tell.
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Oh man, I'd love to see that where I work.
As it is the EM and PICU people sometimes get into a circle jerk pontificating about CT vs PICU vs OR, etc. and the trauma attending and I roll our eyes and have to Veto the well considered plan and just take them to the OR.
Any trip to the PICU means hours of delay and the real possibility of a crash in a marginally stable patient.
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Mine is $2k/month for the final 2 years of residency. They way you find these contracts is by looking for them. Asking around at places you'd want to go; some are not willing to contract someone still in residency but many are.
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Yep.
The place I am going to is rural. They openly admit that they have a harder time getting docs to this particular location (hence the carrots). Otherwise it's a first class company to work for.
I know the town. I'm happy to go there. I know the company exceedingly well. And have had them recommended to me universally by both docs currently working for them, and faculty at my current program (this company has a great rep nationwide)
I'm not worried about my particular contract. But I was very very careful about finding it. And I turned down interviews at a lot of very shady sounding places before finding this one.
I'd absolutely still advise people to choose very carefully.
