Is hard work sometimes just not enough for some?

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OREdwardsJR

OREdwardsJR

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I have a friend who has taken and failed Calc 1 ~5-6 times. He just took it this summer and failed again. At first, I thought he just was not working hard enough but I'm now wondering if it's something else. It's just, as of now, I can't get myself to believe that a class can be so hard that it cannot be understood enough to get a passing grade in it.

We (or I) always hear that hard work will be enough, and I've begun to believe so in regards to academics, but maybe that not completely true?!? I just cannot seem to grasp the idea that there are different levels of inherent intellectual ability (disregarding mental ailments), whereas John has the capability to pull out a 4.0 in UG but Jacob is incapable of doing so, no matter how hard he works.

Discuss.
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Some people, no matter how hard they try, how hard they practice, how hard they want it, will never succeed in the things they do. This not only holds true for academic capability, but in the real world as well as sports. Some people have it and some people don't.
 
OREdwardsJR said:
I have a friend who has taken and failed Calc 1 ~5-6 times. He just took it this summer and failed again. At first, I thought he just was not working hard enough but I'm now wondering if it's something else. It's just, as of now, I can't get myself to believe that a class can be so hard that it cannot be understood enough to get a passing grade in it.

We (or I) always hear that hard work will be enough, and I've begun to believe so in regards to academics, but maybe that not completely true?!? I just cannot seem to grasp the idea that there are different levels of inherent intellectual ability (disregarding mental ailments), whereas John has the capability to pull out a 4.0 in UG but Jacob is incapable of doing so, no matter how hard he works.

Discuss.
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There ARE different levels of inherent intellectual ability. Problem solved.
 
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JABWS said:
There ARE different levels of inherent intellectual ability. Problem solved.
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This.

Think of intellectual capability like a game of dodge ball.

When selecting your team, are you going to pick the hulk that can throw 110 mph, or the chubby kid in the back who is trying to manage the puss leaking from his most recent boil? If you have played or coached any sports, each of these people may put in equal effort, but the hulk is still a hulk, and the chubby kid is still the chubby kid.

There is an essence of nature/nurture, but just like physical capability, there is a mental capability that is primarily genetic.

Note: Intelligence is genetic, knowledge is learned.
Concepts measure intelligence.
Memorization measures knowledge.

People successful in academics have a good balance of intelligence and knowledge, but tend to lean much more on the side of intelligence.
 
Correct. Hard work is sometimes just not enough for some people. I've met many people who likely never should have attended college and who likely would have been much happier (and would have saved a lot of $$$) by attending, say, a trade school instead. They tried really hard and all, but things rarely worked for them in any academically-demanding classes. Avoiding college (or a difficult major) may have saved a lot of the heartbreak that goes along with repeated failures.
 
It is not just work hard, but work "SMART".

A vast majority of people can be very/decently/highly succcessful even with "Average" intelligence if they learn how to apply themselves, how to work thrugh the material in an efficient, timely manner that works for them.
 
OREdwardsJR said:
I just cannot seem to grasp the idea that there are different levels of inherent intellectual ability (disregarding mental ailments), whereas John has the capability to pull out a 4.0 in UG but Jacob is incapable of doing so, no matter how hard he works.

Discuss.
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Ummm, why? Do you think all people have the exact same aptitude for everything?

I have an aptitude for languages. Within 2 years of arriving in Canada I was at the top of my English class. I was at or near the top of any English class I took, from HS to university. I utterly crushed both the verbal and essay portions of the MCAT (14/S) without studying/practicing even a single hour for either; it was so ridiculously easy for me that I barely understand the concept of needing to study for these parts.

Comparatively, I suck at math. Not all math, and with hard work I did fine up to basic physics, but calc killed me. Study groups, tutors, endless practice questions...no matter what, my brain refused to understand integration. I passed that class by the skin of my teeth (52%, to be exact) and probably wouldn't have gotten into med school if the school didn't drop the lowest-semester marks.
 
PreMedOrDead said:
:wow:
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Yeah well, something had to balance out the Phys section. I think we can all agree that the math in that isn't even any sort of hard math, and yet after 2 months of studying I did barely above average on it.
 
O2Doc said:
Yeah well, something had to balance out the Phys section. I think we can all agree that the math in that isn't even any sort of hard math, and yet after 2 months of studying I did barely above average on it.
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Yeah, but isn't a 14 on Verbal like a 99.99999th percentile?

My 12 in Verbal nearly made me crap mis pantalones.

It seems much easier to score higher in PS/BS (even though my BS was weaker than my VR on the real thing)
 
PreMedOrDead said:
Yeah, but isn't a 14 on Verbal like a 99.99999th percentile?

My 12 in Verbal nearly made me crap mis pantalones.

It seems much easier to score higher in PS/BS (even though my BS was weaker than my VR on the real thing)
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If you know that you suck at math PS can be hell, what with the added stress of the actual exam vs a practice. Things like the Verbal and essays I've never worried about, it always came naturally.
 
PreMedOrDead said:
Yeah, but isn't a 14 on Verbal like a 99.99999th percentile?

My 12 in Verbal nearly made me crap mis pantalones.

It seems much easier to score higher in PS/BS (even though my BS was weaker than my VR on the real thing)
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Got a 12 on my VR, which was my highest. I actually always found that section the easiest...

But, yeah, there are definitely inherent intellectual levels among people. I know some people that struggle with calculus, too, because they just can't grasp the concepts in their mind. For me, calculus always made instant sense. It's different for every one.
 
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OP, I'm of the opinion that hard work triumph quite often over talent. It's definitely hard to believe your friend took the class many times without passing... :(
 
OREdwardsJR said:
I have a friend who has taken and failed Calc 1 ~5-6 times. He just took it this summer and failed again. At first, I thought he just was not working hard enough but I'm now wondering if it's something else. It's just, as of now, I can't get myself to believe that a class can be so hard that it cannot be understood enough to get a passing grade in it.

We (or I) always hear that hard work will be enough, and I've begun to believe so in regards to academics, but maybe that not completely true?!? I just cannot seem to grasp the idea that there are different levels of inherent intellectual ability (disregarding mental ailments), whereas John has the capability to pull out a 4.0 in UG but Jacob is incapable of doing so, no matter how hard he works.

Discuss.
Click to expand...


Ability/performance is a poisson distribution around a mean. Not everyone is equal in this regard.

I've met people like this. Some are very dingy, others just didn't care. Some claimed to try, but only studied the night before a test.

You can't help everyone.
 
What is there to discuss? There are Federers and there are Roddicks out there.
 
OREdwardsJR said:
I have a friend who has taken and failed Calc 1 ~5-6 times. He just took it this summer and failed again. At first, I thought he just was not working hard enough but I'm now wondering if it's something else. It's just, as of now, I can't get myself to believe that a class can be so hard that it cannot be understood enough to get a passing grade in it.

We (or I) always hear that hard work will be enough, and I've begun to believe so in regards to academics, but maybe that not completely true?!? I just cannot seem to grasp the idea that there are different levels of inherent intellectual ability (disregarding mental ailments), whereas John has the capability to pull out a 4.0 in UG but Jacob is incapable of doing so, no matter how hard he works.

Discuss.
Click to expand...

Read "mindset" by carol dweck.
 
I'm sorry but i really have a hard time believing someone who gave their all 24/7 still failed multiple times. Theres no excuse for that. He is most likely lazy and thinks he can make As in classes by skipping lectures and cramming the night before the test. Im currently taking calc 1 also and math is easily my worse subject but i worked my ass off and made As on my first 2 tests. Im pretty sure my teacher is sick of looking at me because i'm in his office every chance i get..
Everytime I've ever failed at anything, I know for a fact that it was because I simply did not put in the work that I needed to.
 
RecycleRinsed said:
Read "mindset" by carol dweck.
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*just googled*

PhysioChick said:
I'm sorry but i really have a hard time believing someone who gave their all 24/7 still failed multiple times. Theres no excuse for that. He is most likely lazy and thinks he can make As in classes by skipping lectures and cramming the night before the test. Im currently taking calc 1 also and math is easily my worse subject but i worked my ass off and made As on my first 2 tests. Im pretty sure my teacher is sick of looking at me because i'm in his office every chance i get..
Everytime I've ever failed at anything, I know for a fact that it was because I simply did not put in the work that I needed to.
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That's what I was thinking at first, he's not working hard enough. 6 FAILURES THOUGH?? Either dude just does not get calculus or has a REALLY HARD time getting himself to put in the necessary work.
 
One thing I will say is that hard work can compensate for not being as smart as some other people, to a point. You have to be naturally intelligent to do medicine. But, you can always do better than someone slightly smarter than you if you outwork them. The people at the top of our class weren't necessarily the smartest. They were the ones that were probably in the top 1/3rd intellectually, but in the top 5% in how hard they worked. Some geniuses in our class just didn't put in the work and ended up far away from the top of the class.

Same thing happens in sports. You need to be naturally gifted and put in the time to live up to your potential. Superior athletes lose their jobs quite often to people of slightly lesser abilities who just outwork them.
 
PhysioChick said:
Everytime I've ever failed at anything, I know for a fact that it was because I simply did not put in the work that I needed to.
Click to expand...

You must be pretty special. Most of us acknowledge their are things we just weren't born to do. Like singing, for example, I could take lessons for 10 years and still suck. Just not an ability of mine, and I'm fine with that. Obviously I could improve, but I would never get to the point where somebody would want to listen to me, so I'd rather spend my time where I know I can be excellent. Like Tetris.
 
Charles Darwin said:
Roddick was number 1 in the world so that's probably not the best analogy...
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:laugh: sorry the point is there are guys who work really hard and start at a young age like Roddick who consistently got beaten by Federer who has the same work ethic. The cruel things is a lot of times the matches are not even close. So talent makes a difference.
 
Look you can do anything you put your mind to Ok If you dont believe me just read my sig my sig is Law.,, this guy obviously just approached math completely wrong their is no way humanly possible that you can study hard and take a class 3 times and then fail it the 4 time NO Way I mean he practically knew what would be on each test HE HAD EACH TEST FOR GOODNESS SAKES.

Their is more to this story im sure of it something does not add up.
 
Some of us got it, some of us don't. That simple.

But in regards to your friend...Either he's not trying as hard as you think he is, doesn't know how to study, or is just plain stupid. To fail a class once is already bad enough, 5-6 times is just ridiculous, especially with a class like Calculus where a number of people test out of it...
 
Yeah, he might have bad study habits. No matter how hard you work, if you're not working the right way, it just won't work. He might not have the intellectual aptitude to grasp the concepts either...

Also, an important thing to realize is where somebody is coming from and what foundation that person already possesses in the area you're measuring them in.

Maybe he didn't learn the fundamentals so well in his previous mathematics courses, or his teachers weren't so great. Etc.

A lot of people who do well in the difficult classes I've taken in college I have noticed already had a strong foundation in the subject. In my chemistry course (the same for calculus and biology), there were students who had taken chemistry several times in high school already, talk about unfair. :p

They had already grasped the basic concepts and worked through a lot of the mistakes that a first timer in the subject would just start to learn and make those same mistakes. Mistakes in the sense of taking a test and missing a few questions, and then realizing after wards what you did wrong.

Just a quick personal example, I've always excelled in English and grammar, but that's because I read and write all day in my spare time. My calculus tutor had taken calculus in high school with one of the top 10 high school calculus teachers in the country and he was a part of the math club, do you think that would affect how well he does in mathematics in college as opposed to a student who struggled to pass or even one who merely passed.
 
Tiburon said:
You must be pretty special. Most of us acknowledge their are things we just weren't born to do. Like singing, for example, I could take lessons for 10 years and still suck. Just not an ability of mine, and I'm fine with that. Obviously I could improve, but I would never get to the point where somebody would want to listen to me, so I'd rather spend my time where I know I can be excellent. Like Tetris.
Click to expand...
When I said that, i was pertaining to the academic areas of my life...but I really feel like everyone can acheive anything they desire as long as they want it bad enough. I don't think theres a such thing as "just not getting it" especially after you've had a professor spoon feed it to you. (We're talking undergrad here!) but anyway that's just my $0.02
 
OREdwardsJR said:
I'm not buying the book and I can't find a copy of it online so why don't you tell me what it's about or what point you're trying to make.
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I read the dust jacket blub on Amazon and figured out what it was about...
 
Optimus Lime said:
Yeah, he might have bad study habits. No matter how hard you work, if you're not working the right way, it just won't work. He might not have the intellectual aptitude to grasp the concepts either...

Also, an important thing to realize is where somebody is coming from and what foundation that person already possesses in the area you're measuring them in.

Maybe he didn't learn the fundamentals so well in his previous mathematics courses, or his teachers weren't so great. Etc.

A lot of people who do well in the difficult classes I've taken in college I have noticed already had a strong foundation in the subject. In my chemistry course (the same for calculus and biology), there were students who had taken chemistry several times in high school already, talk about unfair. :p

They had already grasped the basic concepts and worked through a lot of the mistakes that a first timer in the subject would just start to learn and make those same mistakes. Mistakes in the sense of taking a test and missing a few questions, and then realizing after wards what you did wrong.

Just a quick personal example, I've always excelled in English and grammar, but that's because I read and write all day in my spare time. My calculus tutor had taken calculus in high school with one of the top 10 high school calculus teachers in the country and he was a part of the math club, do you think that would affect how well he does in mathematics in college as opposed to a student who struggled to pass or even one who merely passed.
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They have national calculus teacher rankings?
 
someone has already hinted at possible weak foundations in math, so I'm not going to repeat that. but failing calculus 1 is a bit of a red flag. there's really no abstract concept in that course, so it doesn't really require critical thinking skills. just memorize a few derivatives and integrals and knowledge of intermediate algebra and trig should suffice.
 
Neurosis said:
someone has already hinted at possible weak foundations in math, so I'm not going to repeat that. but failing calculus 1 is a bit of a red flag. there's really no abstract concept in that course, so it doesn't really require critical thinking skills. just memorize a few derivatives and integrals and knowledge of intermediate algebra and trig should suffice.
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Hell, I could almost see failing it once (I mean, it would be rough, but I could see if someone fluked out on their entry placement test and got in over their head) but SIX times!?!? At some point I'm thinking you gotta say, "Ya know, maybe I should go take a trig class before I try this calculus stuff again."
 
What you are able to learn is actually very much influenced by your cultural and intellectual upbringing. It's an extreme case, but I read a book called "Don't Sleep, There are Snakes" about an Amazonian tribe called the Piraha who literally cannot comprehend numbers or writing, even when they very willingly and enthusiastically attempt to learn. Their language can only distinguish between the relative values of "a lot" and "a little." I am not attempting to equate anything here to intelligence, but it really makes you wonder about how inherent certain types of knowledge are, and how early we must start on a path like science or mathematics in order to really excel at it.
 
I didn't believe this until I took O-chem. I worked the hardest in this class, took tutoring, went to office hours, but still my final grade didn't reflect all the work I had put into studying. If medical school was ochem heavy, i would seriously rethink my career plans. Thankfully, this is not the case. On the plus side, since I had studied so much when I took the class, It was very beneficial to me when studying for MCAT. Fortunately, I didn't fail hence didn't have to be put through the hell of retaking Ochem..
 
mirimonster said:
What you are able to learn is actually very much influenced by your cultural and intellectual upbringing. It's an extreme case, but I read a book called "Don't Sleep, There are Snakes" about an Amazonian tribe called the Piraha who literally cannot comprehend numbers or writing, even when they very willingly and enthusiastically attempt to learn. Their language can only distinguish between the relative values of "a lot" and "a little." I am not attempting to equate anything here to intelligence, but it really makes you wonder about how inherent certain types of knowledge are, and how early we must start on a path like science or mathematics in order to really excel at it.
Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more. Other than instincts, sometimes referred to as innate knowledge, I don't think knowledge is inherent. The intellectual capability to acquire knowledge is, to a certain extent, an inborn quality, but knowledge, by definition, is something that is acquired existentially or through education.

And in regard to the bolded statement, from my own experience, I know one's ability to excel in science or mathematics is not solely dependent on how early they begin down a specific path. I didn't touch science until my sophomore year of college. It wasn't until I decided to pursue medicine that I even learned about classes like organic chemistry or genetics. Not to sound boastful, but I would say I've excelled in these classes, and others like them, despite not having been groomed to be a scientist since I was young.

More than anything, I feel as though a strong foundation in the basics (reading, writing, arithmetic) sets the stage for whatever intellectual endeavors one might choose to engage in later in life. It is during childhood, in that time of incredible neuroplasticity and brain development, that students are given the necessary mental tools to succeed. With that being said, the neuroplastic process, although heightened, is not limited to this stage of maturation, and in fact continues, to a various degree, throughout life. But now I'm veering off into an entirely different topic.
 
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orangeblue said:
It is not just work hard, but work "SMART".

A vast majority of people can be very/decently/highly succcessful even with "Average" intelligence if they learn how to apply themselves, how to work thrugh the material in an efficient, timely manner that works for them.
Click to expand...

I agree. Many people I know "study" for hours. And hours. And then say when they fail/nearly fail the exam-- "But I studied for hours!"


"Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress." - Alfred A. Montapert
 
JABWS said:
I couldn't disagree more. Other than instincts, sometimes referred to as innate knowledge, I don't think knowledge is inherent. The intellectual capability to acquire knowledge is, to a certain extent, an inborn quality, but knowledge, by definition, is something that is acquired existentially or through education.
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What are you disagreeing with? I never said anything to that effect. In fact, I said exactly the opposite.

JABWS said:
And in regard to the bolded statement, from my own experience, I know one's ability to excel in science or mathematics is not solely dependent on how early they begin down a specific path. I didn't touch science until my sophomore year of college. It wasn't until I decided to pursue medicine that I even learned about classes like organic chemistry or genetics. Not to sound boastful, but I would say I've excelled in these classes, and others like them, despite not having been groomed to be a scientist since I was young.
Click to expand...

Never claimed that. Just said you have to have certain fundamentals at a very young age in order to have the capacity to learn certain concepts at all. Case in point - the Piraha in the Amazon who cannot learn numbers at all past a certain age.

JABWS said:
More than anything, I feel as though a strong foundation in the basics (reading, writing, arithmetic) sets the stage for whatever intellectual endeavors one might choose to engage in later in life. It is during childhood, in that time of incredible neuroplasticity and brain development, that students are given the necessary mental tools to succeed. With that being said, the neuroplastic process, although heightened, is not limited to this stage of maturation, and in fact continues, to a various degree, throughout life. But now I'm veering off into an entirely different topic.
Click to expand...

Ummmm, isn't that exactly what I said? "cultural and intellectual upbringing", pretty much the same thing as foundation. My comment was exactly that there is no inherent knowledge, demonstrated by the fact that even the concept of a number is learned, not inherent, and that certain fundamentals need to be in place at a very young age in order for someone to have the potential to progress further. Obviously I'm not claiming you have to learn organic chemistry in kindergarten.

Did you even read my post before arguing with it?
 
In your friend's case--perhaps he is not studying efficiently enough for the course. Perhaps he also needs to also pick up supplemental material such as Calculus Demystified and also study that in conjunction with his university's syllabus. Or he is just lazy or dumb.....jk.

One thing I have noticed about hard work is that the one doing the work will know whether or not thwy are working hard or not.
 
mirimonster said:
What are you disagreeing with? I never said anything to that effect. In fact, I said exactly the opposite.



Never claimed that. Just said you have to have certain fundamentals at a very young age in order to have the capacity to learn certain concepts at all. Case in point - the Piraha in the Amazon who cannot learn numbers at all past a certain age.



Ummmm, isn't that exactly what I said? "cultural and intellectual upbringing", pretty much the same thing as foundation. My comment was exactly that there is no inherent knowledge, demonstrated by the fact that even the concept of a number is learned, not inherent, and that certain fundamentals need to be in place at a very young age in order for someone to have the potential to progress further. Obviously I'm not claiming you have to learn organic chemistry in kindergarten.

Did you even read my post before arguing with it?
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"but it really makes you wonder about how inherent certain types of knowledge are"

to which I responded, knowledge, by definition, is not inherent, excluding instincts. By making this statement, you seem to be insinuating that 'certain types of knowledge' is inherent, otherwise why would you be wondering about it?

Bolded sentence: Starting on 'a path like science or mathematics' is much different than having 'certain fundamentals at a very young age.'

And yes, I did read your post. Perhaps you should be a little more explicit so as to avoid misinterpretation.
 
JABWS said:
"but it really makes you wonder about how inherent certain types of knowledge are"

to which I responded, knowledge, by definition, is not inherent, excluding instincts. By making this statement, you seem to be insinuating that 'certain types of knowledge' is inherent, otherwise why would you be wondering about it?

Bolded sentence: Starting on 'a path like science or mathematics' is much different than having 'certain fundamentals at a very young age.'

And yes, I did read your post. Perhaps you should be a little more explicit so as to avoid misinterpretation.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I'm wondering whether they're not inherent? Wondering does not imply that I've reached one conclusion or the other. On the other hand, my example does imply that knowledge is not inherent, so those words taken in context do show my point.

Bolded - no it's not. You yourself admitted the necessity of basic arithmetic at a young age, which is fundamental to starting a path like science or mathematics.

Maybe you read it, but you seem to have completely missed the point, and latched on to a couple of words, took them out of their context and then proceeded to misinterpret them. You're going to have to do a lot better than that on verbal reasoning.
 
mirimonster said:
Perhaps I'm wondering whether they're not inherent? Wondering does not imply that I've reached one conclusion or the other. On the other hand, my example does imply that knowledge is not inherent, so those words taken in context do show my point.

Bolded - no it's not. You yourself admitted the necessity of basic arithmetic at a young age, which is fundamental to starting a path like science or mathematics.

Maybe you read it, but you seem to have completely missed the point, and latched on to a couple of words, took them out of their context and then proceeded to misinterpret them. You're going to have to do a lot better than that on verbal reasoning.
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I think I'm doing just fine with my verbal reasoning.

Based upon the fact that you were wondering about how inherent certain types of knowledge is, I assumed you didn't know what the hell you were talking about. And it was through that lens that I viewed the entirety of your post. I apologize if I misconstrued what should have been an incredibly insightful comment. You can go back to reading about snakes now.
 
O2Doc said:
I utterly crushed both the verbal and essay portions of the MCAT (14/S) without studying/practicing even a single hour for either; it was so ridiculously easy for me that I barely understand the concept of needing to study for these parts.
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:bow: Mad props.... I had to study my butt off to get my score and I still don't know how the hell it happened.
 
I definitely agree with the notion of studying smarter, rather than "harder." I usually see underclassmen hanging out at the UG library and they tell me that they're "studying," but half of the time they're on their cell phones, making jokes, hookin up with someone, etc. Now not all of these are neurotic premeds, but sometimes it'd be more helpful just getting a SOLID 2 hours in with no distractions, instead of 5 hours at the "library" that might not even make up 2 hours of actual studying.

Not gonna lie, I was a horrible student for the first two years of college. Figuring out how to study...took me a long time. I'm slow at learning these things. :p
 
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