Is it a problem if...

[Perrotfish]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I go to Cuba for the summer for a Medical Spanish program? I know I can't leave directly from the US to go to Cuba, but is going there actually illegal? Can it screw me over in some way if the military finds out about it?

Still hoping for orders for ODS, of course, but I need a backup plan.

 

[notdeadyet]

I go to Cuba for the summer for a Medical Spanish program? I know I can't leave directly from the US to go to Cuba, but is going there actually illegal?

It's illegal for Americans to go to Cuba, regardless of what country they depart from. There are very rare exceptions, when it's done for State Department cultural exchanges and the like, but much of that was stamped down over the last 8 years. It's a travel embargo that's been pretty ignored, but for the last two terms, Bush bumped up both the fines (which are in the thousands) and their enforcement.

You're on HPSP, right? I would think there could be some uncomfortable conversations if a military officer was caught sneaking into a communist country forbidden for travel even for civilians. But maybe I'm wrong?

There are lots of very cheap Medical Spanish programs you can attend in Mexico or Central America. It could save you some potential heartache. I attended one I liked in Guadalajara. If you want to go cheaper than that, you can do it for a pittance in Guatamala or Nicaragua.

 

[USAF MD '05]

Seems timely. This just in... Make sure you check out the health care crap that Daschle's peeps crammed in....scary.

Bill would drop travel restrictions to Cuba

By Alexia Campbell | South Florida Sun Sentinel
February 10, 2009

While most of the nation focused on the stimulus bill winding through Congress, nine representatives introduced a bill calling for an end to the 46-year-old ban on travel to Cuba.

The Freedom to Travel to Cuba Act introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives on Feb. 4 would allow American citizens unrestricted travel to Cuba for the first time since 1963. The bill by Rep. William Delahunt, D-Mass., and eight co-sponsors would also lift limits on travel by Cuban exiles living in the United States. The president would not be able to regulate travel to the island unless an armed conflict or armed danger arises.

The bill has gone too far, said Francisco "Pepe" Hernandez, president of the Cuban American National Foundation. Cuban exiles should visit their families whenever they want, but tourists shouldn't spend money in resorts that Cubans are barred from. "It's improper and should not be allowed until the Cuban government makes some reforms," he said.

That's not the case for Jose Lopez, president of the Broward County Click here for restaurant inspection reports Latin Chamber of Commerce and a staunch supporter of the trade embargo.

Related links

*
Images of Cuba Images of Cuba Photos
*
An in-depth look at the Cuban revolution
*
Buena Vista Social Club's "Cachaito" dead
*
Fidel Castro resigns as president of Cuba. He led the country for more than four decades, see the interactive timeline. Fidel Castro resigns as president of Cuba. He led the country for more than four decades, see the interactive timeline. Multimedia
*
The Cuban Revolution: A timeline in pictures
*
Ray Sanchez: Couple's home a monument to the Cuban revolution

"It's a betrayal and it's not going to resolve anything," said Lopez, who left Cuba in 1961.

Tourism dollars spent in Cuba will inject more oxygen into the dying Castro regime, he said. Lopez also thinks Cuban exiles who want to return to the island whenever they please are abusing their refugee privilege.

Many expect President Barack Obama to back a change in the policy. As a candidate for the presidency, Obama spoke in favor of reducing restrictions on remittances and travel to the island.

Co-sponsors to the bill include representatives Rosa DeLauro, D-Conn., Sam Farr, D-Calif., and Ron Paul, R- Texas.

Alexia Campbell can be reached at [email protected] or 954-356-4513

 

[DrMetal]

I go to Cuba for the summer for a Medical Spanish program? I know I can't leave directly from the US to go to Cuba, but is going there actually illegal? Can it screw me over in some way if the military finds out about it?

Still hoping for orders for ODS, of course, but I need a backup plan.

Ditto to notdead's post. Don't do it, too dicey. As is I think you need to get permission to go to Mexico (not sure about other Centam countries).

 

[MD Grizzly]

Yea that would definitely be a bad idea as PerrotFish said, you don't want to be doing any of that, especially being on HPSP.

 

[NavyFP]

Very bad idea. There are plenty of Spanish speaking countries with whom we have better relations.

 

[pgg]

I go to Cuba for the summer for a Medical Spanish program? I know I can't leave directly from the US to go to Cuba, but is going there actually illegal? Can it screw me over in some way if the military finds out about it?

Bad idea.

Personally, I think laws prohibiting Americans from traveling anywhere they want to go, any time they want to go there, are flagrantly unconstitutional and ought to be ignored. If you were a civilian, I'd say go - and do so with both middle fingers extended at anyone who said different. But you're not, so different standards apply.

Also, eventually you'll probably need to apply for a security clearance. At that point, you'll either have to lie about traveling to Cuba, or you'll have to explain just WTF you were doing/thinking by illegally going there. I suspect it wouldn't be fun having to head off to GMO-land and explain to your USMC LtCol commanding officer why, exactly, you can't attend the staff meetings or intel briefs.

 

[DogFaceMedic]

Bad idea.

Personally, I think laws prohibiting Americans from traveling anywhere they want to go, any time they want to go there, are flagrantly unconstitutional and ought to be ignored. If you were a civilian, I'd say go - and do so with both middle fingers extended at anyone who said different. But you're not, so different standards apply.

Also, eventually you'll probably need to apply for a security clearance. At that point, you'll either have to lie about traveling to Cuba, or you'll have to explain just WTF you were doing/thinking by illegally going there. I suspect it wouldn't be fun having to head off to GMO-land and explain to your USMC LtCol commanding officer why, exactly, you can't attend the staff meetings or intel briefs.

Second paragraph is correct.

First paragraph is less so. It is consitutionally correct for the elected gov't of the US to make it illegal for American citizens to travel to a state that has declared us (i.e., you and I) their enemy, and actively engages in espionage against us and murdered our fellow citizens/soldiers. Keep Gitmo open, Free Cuba.

 

[crazybrancato]

Personally, I think laws prohibiting Americans from traveling anywhere they want to go, any time they want to go there, are flagrantly unconstitutional and ought to be ignored. If you were a civilian, I'd say go - and do so with both middle fingers extended at anyone who said different. But you're not, so different standards apply.

posts like this make me think that it doesn't take brains nor common sense to get through medical education & training

Second paragraph is correct.

First paragraph is less so. It is consitutionally correct for the elected gov't of the US to make it illegal for American citizens to travel to a state that has declared us (i.e., you and I) their enemy, and actively engages in espionage against us and murdered our fellow citizens/soldiers. Keep Gitmo open, Free Cuba.

rebuttals like this give me more hope.

 

[Habeed]

First paragraph is less so. It is consitutionally correct for the elected gov't of the US to make it illegal for American citizens to travel to a state that has declared us (i.e., you and I) their enemy, and actively engages in espionage against us and murdered our fellow citizens/soldiers.

Actually, it is not illegal for an American citizen to go to Cuba. It is illegal to give anyone in Cuba even one nickel, as in effect you are giving that money to the Cuban government. By doing so you are helping to support a declared enemy of the United States.

 

[pgg]

posts like this make me think that it doesn't take brains nor common sense to get through medical education & training.

It's a little disturbing that you think prohibiting an American citizen from freely traveling any place he or she chooses (while accepting any risks involved) is compatible with our Constitution.

 

[Habeed]

It's a little disturbing that you think prohibiting an American citizen from freely traveling any place he or she chooses (while accepting any risks involved) is compatible with our Constitution.

It isn't illegal for an American citizen to go wherever they please. Read my post above.

It is illegal for an American citizen to provide material support to the enemies of the United States. That's treason.

And, Cuba is an enemy of the United States by their own declaration and actions they have taken over the past 40 years.

Granted, they are a minor enemy, there are much bigger fish to fry, but the U.S. government still has them on the list of bad guys.

 

[crazybrancato]

It's a little disturbing that you think prohibiting an American citizen from freely traveling any place he or she chooses (while accepting any risks involved) is compatible with our Constitution.

it doesn't matter what one thinks is or isn't compatible w/ our Constitution. the fact is that the Const. makes no mention about the 'right' to travel. And so, the gov't can place whatever restrictions it sees fit . . .and it does so for the sake of national security.

say for instance a chinese nuclear scientist working at los alamos wants to travel to China to visit family. He could probably do so w/ adequate paperwork, passports, etc. Now suppose his 2-week trip becomes a 6-month trip (mysteriously), and suppose it comes out that he took a gov't class. laptop with him. Then, you should hope that our gov't is keeping tabs on his travels and making sure he's not engaging in espionage! (I know such scenarios may seem foreign to you, but the State Dept deals with them everyday). This is why we have Customs, DHS, armed Border patrol, etc etc.

having said all of this, i think you'll find that the rules/restrictions imposed by the U.S. are much more lenient than other countries.

the fact that i have to explain this to you, a member of the armed forces who presumably understands something about gov't, is truly tragic

 

[Perrotfish]

Well, if it's going to screw with my security clearance I guess I won't go. I was never sure if it was illegal to even be there or just to leave from a US airport, I guess it's the former. I'll either head south/to spain to improve my spanish or I'll pick a new language to pick up. Are there any travel restrictions involving China, BTW? I know these choices are making it sound like I have a communist fetish, but Chinese is just another language that I've always wanted to learn.

Also I would have to agree that there's nothing in the constituion guarenteeing your right to travel outside of the US. Maybe it's something that seems like it should be a right, but it's definitely not in there.

 

[notdeadyet]

I'll either head south/to spain to improve my spanish or I'll pick a new language to pick up. Are there any travel restrictions involving China, BTW? I know these choices are making it sound like I have a communist fetish, but Chinese is just another language that I've always wanted to learn.

If you're really thinking of travelling for linguistic reasons, you're probably better off improving your Spanish. You won't be able to pick up much Chinese that will stick in a couple of months. If you have a baseline in Spanish, you could really improve it with a few months in a Spanish speaking country. If you like language training, Xela or Antigua in Guatamala are both popular places.

 

[Habeed]

Did anyone read my post, above? It isn't illegal to go to Cuba, or anywhere else. It never was.

It is illegal to help enemies of the country! That is Constitutional! And, the state department argues that if you go to Cuba and spend even a nickel there, you are helping the Communist government there.

Yacht races do occasionally stop in Cuba, but it's a big hassle because the Cuban government has to officially agree to pay everything, since the race organizers cannot give the Cubans (officially) any money.

Don't ask why it is ok to take money/services from Communists, but not to give them any...

 

[crazybrancato]

Did anyone read my post, above? It isn't illegal to go to Cuba, or anywhere else. It never was.

It is illegal to help enemies of the country! That is Constitutional! And, the state department argues that if you go to Cuba and spend even a nickel there, you are helping the Communist government there.

Yacht races do occasionally stop in Cuba, but it's a big hassle because the Cuban government has to officially agree to pay everything, since the race organizers cannot give the Cubans (officially) any money.

Don't ask why it is ok to take money/services from Communists, but not to give them any...

calm down drama queen! ok we get it! we won't spend a nickel in Cuba, roger that. Yacht races??? LOL who cares.

 

[Perrotfish]

If you're really thinking of travelling for linguistic reasons, you're probably better off improving your Spanish. You won't be able to pick up much Chinese that will stick in a couple of months. If you have a baseline in Spanish, you could really improve it with a few months in a Spanish speaking country. If you like language training, Xela or Antigua in Guatamala are both popular places.

See, I've already done thatbefore I started medical school (went through Chile, Argintina, and Peru with a school called ECELA). What I was origionally hoping to do this summer was work with a medical spanish program that would let me spend my time basically doing a rotation in a hospital setting, but (with the exception of the Cuban program, which was why I was interested) all of those programs seem to be limited to 3rd and 4th year medical students.

I've been told that a summer of intensive classes can give me a very good working knowledge of spoken Chinese, though I'll probably still be pretty much illeterate.

BTW I've developed a real superstition that I won't get orders for ODS unless I have something lined up that I'd rather do, so this is sort of for the sake of my military training.

 

[notdeadyet]

See, I've already done thatbefore I started medical school (went through Chile, Argintina, and Peru with a school called ECELA). What I was origionally hoping to do this summer was work with a medical spanish program that would let me spend my time basically doing a rotation in a hospital setting, but (with the exception of the Cuban program, which was why I was interested) all of those programs seem to be limited to 3rd and 4th year medical students.

Your itinerary sounds like one h-e-l-l of a trip. My wife and I did our honeymood in Argentina and Chile and had a fantastic time. What a way to learn Spanish!

PM me if you'd like. I did a program through the University of Guadalajara in which you spend half-days studying medical Spanish and the other half working in city clinics. It's in a home-stay environment. It is NOT a true hospital setting (think inner city clinic), though they did have optional afternoons for some of the participants who were medical students (I was a lowly pre-med). It might not be what you're looking for, but if you're at all interested, PM me and I'd be happy to send on details.

I've been told that a summer of intensive classes can give me a very good working knowledge of spoken Chinese, though I'll probably still be pretty much illeterate.

Maybe so. I've heard negative reports on this kind of thing with Mandarin and Cantonese (tough languages both), but if you're a gifted language learner (and you never know until you try), maybe this will work for you. Try to figure out which language is spoken by the populace where you want to practice. Some cities in the U.S. are predominantly Cantonese-speaking and others Mandarin and the two are not mutually comprehensible for the non-native speaker.

BTW I've developed a real superstition that I won't get orders for ODS unless I have something lined up that I'd rather do, so this is sort of for the sake of my military training.

From the stories I've heard around here, that makes absolutely perfect sense.

 

[notdeadyet]

Don't ask why it is ok to take money/services from Communists, but not to give them any...

Actually, from a strategic standpoint, this makes perfect sense to me. But I'm no economist...

 

[pgg]

Did anyone read my post, above? It isn't illegal to go to Cuba, or anywhere else. It never was.

Settle down.

It had been my understanding that it was illegal to travel to Cuba. Having read the State Department's web site, it appears you are correct. I stand corrected.

However, these are semantic issues. By making it illegal for any American to let any funds fall into the hands of any Cuban without a US-government-issued permit, they have essentially banned travel to Cuba. You can't buy plane tickets, even if you go through a 3rd country. How does one "legally" travel to Cuba if one doesn't own a boat or airplane? (Even then presumably there are fees to use an airport or dock there.)

I am curious - exactly what legal mechanism is there to travel to Cuba?

If it was "treasonous" to travel to an enemy nation, why weren't similar restrictions in place for travel to the USSR during the Cold War, or to North Korea or Iran today (that's 2/3rds of the Axis of Evil)?

The role of the US government should be to advise American citizens of the hazards they might face by traveling to places where the people and/or government hate us. (This is what the State Department does for both North Korea and Iran.)

I have no desire or intention to ever travel to Cuba, and even if I did, I would abide by the restrictions and orders imposed on military members. Other American citizens are (should be, anyway) free to go wherever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want to, because they're Americans and Americans are free. It is frankly ludicrous to suggest that merely traveling to a nation hostile to the United States is either treasonous or counterproductive to our national interests. On the contrary, what better way to win the hearts and minds of those people than through many personal, positive interactions with them?

It may well be stupid to visit some countries where you can be imprisoned, tortured, or killed for chewing gum on a state holiday ... but that's another issue.

it doesn't matter what one thinks is or isn't compatible w/ our Constitution. the fact is that the Const. makes no mention about the 'right' to travel. And so, the gov't can place whatever restrictions it sees fit . . .and it does so for the sake of national security.

The 1st Amendment guarantees the right to assemble, which implies a right to travel to said assembly, wherever it may be. The Constitution doesn't include the word "travel" in it, but it's a right that has been recognized and upheld by courts for decades.

The right to travel is a part of the "liberty" of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment.

[...]

Freedom of movement across frontiers in either direction, and inside frontiers as well, was a part of our heritage. Travel abroad, like travel within the country, . . . may be as close to the heart of the individual as the choice of what he eats, or wears, or reads. Freedom of movement is basic in our scheme of values.

[the right to travel] is a right broadly assertable against private interference as well as governmental action [...] it is a virtually unconditional personal right, guaranteed by the Constitution to us all.

I could go on, but I won't.


You guys are entitled to your opinions, however far they may deviate from many years of legal precedent and the most basic interpretation of the spirit of our Constitution.

It's just sad that you're willing to give up so much ... and for nothing ... and you don't even realize you're doing it.

 

[crazybrancato]

Settle down.

It had been my understanding that it was illegal to travel to Cuba. Having read the State Department's web site, it appears you are correct. I stand corrected.

However, these are semantic issues. By making it illegal for any American to let any funds fall into the hands of any Cuban without a US-government-issued permit, they have essentially banned travel to Cuba. You can't buy plane tickets, even if you go through a 3rd country. How does one "legally" travel to Cuba if one doesn't own a boat or airplane? (Even then presumably there are fees to use an airport or dock there.)

I am curious - exactly what legal mechanism is there to travel to Cuba?

If it was "treasonous" to travel to an enemy nation, why weren't similar restrictions in place for travel to the USSR during the Cold War, or to North Korea or Iran today (that's 2/3rds of the Axis of Evil)?

The role of the US government should be to advise American citizens of the hazards they might face by traveling to places where the people and/or government hate us. (This is what the State Department does for both North Korea and Iran.)

I have no desire or intention to ever travel to Cuba, and even if I did, I would abide by the restrictions and orders imposed on military members. Other American citizens are (should be, anyway) free to go wherever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want to, because they're Americans and Americans are free. It is frankly ludicrous to suggest that merely traveling to a nation hostile to the United States is either treasonous or counterproductive to our national interests. On the contrary, what better way to win the hearts and minds of those people than through many personal, positive interactions with them?

It may well be stupid to visit some countries where you can be imprisoned, tortured, or killed for chewing gum on a state holiday ... but that's another issue.





The 1st Amendment guarantees the right to assemble, which implies a right to travel to said assembly, wherever it may be. The Constitution doesn't include the word "travel" in it, but it's a right that has been recognized and upheld by courts for decades.





I could go on, but I won't.


You guys are entitled to your opinions, however far they may deviate from many years of legal precedent and the most basic interpretation of the spirit of our Constitution.

It's just sad that you're willing to give up so much ... and for nothing ... and you don't even realize you're doing it.

i think the found fathers meant the right to assemble within the U.S. They certainly wouldn't be crazy about citizens traveling to England and assembling there (possibly to discuss the overthow of the new U.S. gov't).

wow you have some time on your hands, you know it took you 2 hours to find those cases. Kudos to you, your point.

 

[pgg]

i think the found fathers meant the right to assemble within the U.S. They certainly wouldn't be crazy about citizens traveling to England and assembling there (possibly to discuss the overthow of the new U.S. gov't).

wow you have some time on your hands, you know it took you 2 hours to find those cases. Kudos to you, your point.

Actually, about 5 minutes - Google "constitution right travel" and there are a ton. 🙂

Your point about the founding fathers' likely intent regarding assembly within the US (to petition the government) is well taken. However, I think most would agree that meaningful liberty requires the freedom to say what you want where you want to say it, to associate with whomever you choose wherever you choose, and to generally go anyplace (at your own risk and expense) in your pursuit of happiness.

It just irks me that our government has made it, er, "difficult" for Americans to travel to Cuba. It strikes me as one of the most thoroughly unamerican thing our government has done.

 

[Galo]

Since you have multiple other options to learn spanish, Cuba may be risky as you are going into the military. However, you can enter via another country, (Jamaica say), and your passport won't be stamped.

What most people here fail to realize, is that even when you're on active duty, and you want to vacation somewhere, say Jamaica, you actually have to ask permission for whatever part of the military controls that section of the world. This is outside your immediate chain of command. How do I know this? As typical of my military experience..............I went on a humanitarian mission to teach surgery in Nicaragua. Had a letter of approval from the surgeon general's office, approval through my hospital, squadron, etc, commander including the orderly room, and contacted the Embassy on my arrival. Got a call 3 days later from some Capt saying I had not asked "central command" if I could be in country. Well, I had over 50K of donated equipment in the middle of a week of teaching and operating, so you can imagine what my responce was.........again typical of my existence.

When I got back, I submitted an after action report. About 3 months later, I was called in and read the riot act. Of course my responce was that I do not make it a habit of reading DoD regulations on my free time, and that the entire hospital had plenty of time to do the correct admin work. To this day I know most people do not do this, or how its enforced. Just another joy of military medicine, and the rights you give up when you join.

 

[Habeed]

The difference is, North Korea and the USSR are much larger countries that are not isolated by water. So, going there and spending a few bucks is not going to significantly help them. However, Cuba is very small, and there are known examples of other Carribbean nations subsisting on mainly tourism.

Hence, as part of the 'cold war' against Cuba, the military has deemed it necessary to starve them out. Don't give them a dime, trade, ect.

Sure, this policy is obsolete and probably self defeating. Doesn't change the rules, nor the fact that the government has decreed that giving Cubans even a nickel is providing material support to our enemies. That's why it's legal for the to do this.

 

[DrMetal]

The difference is, North Korea and the USSR

The USSR doesn't exist anymore (unless you're an obsessed fan of Rocky IV), hasn't for almost 20 years. I think you meant Russia and its neighboring countries.

Hence, as part of the 'cold war' against Cuba, the military has deemed it necessary to starve them out.

The military doesn't make any of these decisions. The embargos/travel restictions placed against Cuba (or any other country) have been implemented by the civilian gov't (POTUS, Congress), and if challenged they've been upheld by the judicial system.

 

[del Sol DOHC]

Settle down.
I am curious - exactly what legal mechanism is there to travel to Cuba?

Swim. 😀