Is it bad that part of me wants to avoid specialties that DO's can easily match?

[Jack is Back]

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[Guillemot]

Is it bad that I dont want to go into a field that lets in many FMG because some speak English so poorly that nobody knows what the hell they are saying?

 

[adaptation1]

After 470 posts...and you post this type of stuff?

 

[Spatula]

Sometimes I see specialties that can be matched easily by DOs, while there are others that are less than a few percent DO's each year. Is it bad that I want to avoid these?

Not that I'm against them in anyway, I just feel like if we had to do XYZ extra to get into an MD and have all the research opportunities, won't it be better to be in a MD rich specialty?

To consider any specialty for any reason other than how happy you'll be sounds terrible. I predict you'll be thinking about your retirement constantly by the age of 35. You sure you want to be a doctor?

 

[MilkmanAl]

It sounds bad by virtue of being ignorant, so yes.

 

[Jack is Back]

I will admit to my ignorance.

Just being honest and wondering if anyone else has similar thoughts sometimes.

 

[xanthomondo]

Sometimes I see specialties that can be matched easily by DOs, while there are others that are less than a few percent DO's each year. Is it bad that I want to avoid these?

Not that I'm against them in anyway, I just feel like if we had to do XYZ extra to get into an MD and have all the research opportunities, won't it be better to be in a MD rich specialty?

I hope you match into some snazzy prestigous "MD only" specialty and I hope it makes you miserable and realize that you wish you went into one of those joke DO specialties.

 

[rad0nc]

For better trolling, I suggest you post here . . .

Student Doctor Network Forums > Medical Student Forums > Osteopathic

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Have fun with surgery. I'll be putting your patient to sleep. 😉

 

[Jack is Back]

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[Jack is Back]

I guess we can end the thread as nothing productive can come out of this.

Yes, I realize I shouldn't have started it now.

 

[El Dooderino]

Sometimes I see specialties that can be matched easily by DOs, while there are others that are less than a few percent DO's each year. Is it bad that I want to avoid these?

Not that I'm against them in anyway, I just feel like if we had to do XYZ extra to get into an MD and have all the research opportunities, won't it be better to be in a MD rich specialty?

If it is an issue for you the better way to do it would be to go to a top program in any field

 

[VJWDO]

If it is an issue for you the better way to do it would be to go to a top program in any field

Where you will still see DO's. This has to be the most pathetic OP I have ever come across. I am gonna go and crawl back under my DO rock and dream about having to work to be worthy of an MD.

Lame.

 

[El Dooderino]

Where you will still see DO's. This has to be the most pathetic OP I have ever come across. I am gonna go and crawl back under my DO rock and dream about having to work to be worthy of an MD.

Lame.

Looks like you're in IM, I don't think there are any DO IM residents at BWH/MGH/UCSF/JHU. It's similar in my field also

 

[Jack is Back]

Where you will still see DO's. This has to be the most pathetic OP I have ever come across. I am gonna go and crawl back under my DO rock and dream about having to work to be worthy of an MD.

Lame.

Well, I was going to drop this but since you want to keep it going...

I didn't say that DOs are unworthy or anything like that. I just said that some fields have more MDs.

Examples (ACGME):
# of DO's compared to # of slots...

ortho: 2 of 668
derm: 0 of 340
plastics: 1 of ~100
ent: 0 of 280
neurosurg: 0 of 180
RadOnc: 1 of 160

My original concern is there are a lot of new schools opening up and the medical degree will soon be watered down. With more and more schools, just having a DO or MD won't necessarily be important because newer schools may have poor training.

It's just like law degrees don't mean much anymore, you need to go to a good law school now.

 

[Jack is Back]

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[Postal]

Good point.


I do not demean DO's or their degree. I almost applied to a DO school, so I obviously don't look down on them.

With a thread like this, it most certainly seems like you do

 

[Spatula]

What you're saying is true, MDs have more opportunities for some specialties. But actively avoiding specialties that you may otherwise enjoy solely because they have DOs in them (which was your original point) is incredibly arrogant and tells me you probably will be miserable as a physician.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Sometimes I see specialties that can be matched easily by DOs, while there are others that are less than a few percent DO's each year. Is it bad that I want to avoid these?

Not that I'm against them in anyway, I just feel like if we had to do XYZ extra to get into an MD and have all the research opportunities, won't it be better to be in a MD rich specialty?

TO ALL OF YOU ON THIS THREAD (INCLUDING JACK IS BACK):

I don't think you should be worrying about specialties based on what you had to do (XYZ) to get into a certain degree program - you are becoming a physician, not a "degree." If you are driven enough, you will be able to shine in your field regardless of how many docs there are. At the same time, I can understand your concerns considering the state of the economy - i.e. is it a wise career move to enter a field in which you have competition from many more people? NOTE: The important factor to consider here is the sheer number of people entering a certain specialty, not whether they are of MD or DO background. To other people who are touchy about this issue: don't be because it's a lot more complex than just MD vs DO as has been demonstrated here (also, we are all professionals in training so please offer constructive criticism instead of ill-wishes). Jack has a legitimate question (he may not have posed it that well (no offense, Jack), but nevertheless, it is an important one, so let's try and help).

Also, to everyone, MDs are no better than DOs (and vice versa) - both teams work on the same side but just have different philosophies - like 2 members of a sports team - one may focus on offense and the other on defense - but ultimately, both are necessary parts of the team.

 

[Spatula]

Plus I'm pretty sure a lot of the DO infested specialties are the ones that are the most in-demand job-wise. Any IM from the lowest regarded residency from the lowest regarded medical school can pretty much throw a dart at the US map and instantly get a job there.

 

[mtwop]

I think the OP feels like he might be short changing himself by not going into fields that other students don't have the same opportunity/chance to get into. I have to admit that I feel the same way about the students in my class who say "I'm not going into anything competitive, so I'm fine with getting the lowest passing grade possible." I sure as hell don't want to end up with the same job/pay after I worked my butt off to get the grades/board scores needed to match into certain specialties. However, I maintain that the best students deserve the best residencies, regardless of whether or not they have an MD or DO after their name

 

[drizzt3117]

😕😕😕

the specialties with more people entering tend to be the easier ones to match in. DOs have it tough in a lot of specialties. For example, in my specialty of choice (rads) we're seeing 230/non-AOA MD students racking up 20-30 interviews at low/mid tier programs where top 5%/245/265 DO students are getting 3-8 interviews applying to the same program mix of ACGME programs. It's definitely a lot harder if not impossible.

TO ALL OF YOU ON THIS THREAD (INCLUDING JACK IS BACK):

I don't think you should be worrying about specialties based on what you had to do (XYZ) to get into a certain degree program - you are becoming a physician, not a "degree." If you are driven enough, you will be able to shine in your field regardless of how many docs there are. At the same time, I can understand your concerns considering the state of the economy - i.e. is it a wise career move to enter a field in which you have competition from many more people? NOTE: The important factor to consider here is the sheer number of people entering a certain specialty, not whether they are of MD or DO background. To other people who are touchy about this issue: don't be because it's a lot more complex than just MD vs DO as has been demonstrated here (also, we are all professionals in training so please offer constructive criticism instead of ill-wishes). Jack has a legitimate question (he may not have posed it that well (no offense, Jack), but nevertheless, it is an important one, so let's try and help).

Also, to everyone, MDs are no better than DOs (and vice versa) - both teams work on the same side but just have different philosophies - like 2 members of a sports team - one may focus on offense and the other on defense - but ultimately, both are necessary parts of the team.

 

[SexualOffender]

This is unethical and a likely hippo violation.

You should strongly reconsider your choice to go into medicine. Perhaps look at specialties that don't involve direct patient care, or better yet see if basic science research interests you.

 

[Jack is Back]

This is unethical and a likely hippo violation.

You should strongly reconsider your choice to go into medicine. Perhaps look at specialties that don't involve direct patient care, or better yet see if basic science research interests you.

What is a hippo violation?

 

[mtwop]

What is a hippo violation?

Haha isn't it obvious?????? (his user name "sexual offender")

 

[Jack is Back]

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[Spatula]

Where have you seen at all any indication that there will be some huge surplus of physicians where graduates will have huge difficulties finding jobs (like lawyers from bottom tier law schools do now)? Everything I've seen points to an ever increasing physician shortage, even non-primary care specialists soon.

Just look at how many foreign physicians have to be recruited to see how unlikely it will be that American trained physicians will have trouble finding jobs.

 

[thepoopologist]

I love all the comments that marginalize the DO degree and then end with "but I don't have anything against DO's." If this wasn't a thread about DO's, why start a thread with that heading? Because you have an inherent bias against the degree, and it's understandable. It's human nature to compete, and I can't exactly get into your face about it because it's an internet forum and you have the right to spout whatever you want.


Do whatever the **** you want. Go into an "MD-rich" field if that's what'll help you sleep at night. I have my plan, you have yours.

 

[EagerToBeMD]

Where have you seen at all any indication that there will be some huge surplus of physicians where graduates will have huge difficulties finding jobs (like lawyers from bottom tier law schools do now)? Everything I've seen points to an ever increasing physician shortage, even non-primary care specialists soon.

They're talking about residencies. Residency slots are being slashed while med schools keep increasing class sizes. Without a residency, you're a doctor in name only. You can't practice medicine.

Because of the cap on Medicare's payments, the expanding number of U.S. medical school graduates, and the continuing influx of some 7000 international medical graduates in search of GME posts every year, before long there will be too few positions to train them all. Currently, about 25% of practicing physicians in the United States are graduates of international medical schools. The slow growth in GME positions — an annual rate of 0.9% over the past decade (Nasca T: personal communication) — contrasts with the increases in enrollment that have occurred in 100 of the 125 allopathic medical schools and a doubling of enrollments in osteopathic medical schools. By 2015, combined first-year enrollment in allopathic and osteopathic schools is projected to reach 26,403, an increase of 35% over 2002 numbers. Eight new allopathic schools and nine osteopathic schools or branch campuses have enrolled their first classes or soon will do so

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMhpr1107519

 

[Spatula]

They're talking about residencies. Residency slots are being slashed while med schools keep increasing class sizes. Without a residency, you're a doctor in name only. You can't practice medicine.



http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMhpr1107519

Yeah, that's a separate problem but the OP definitely is not talking about that. His concern is picking a residency that doesn't have DOs in it, not getting a residency in place of a DO.

 

[Jack is Back]

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[45408]

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read it.

 

[Jack is Back]

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[Narmerguy]

You are right.

I was wrong, I made a mistake and I apologize.

Just ask a Mod to lock it?

 

[tkim]

EM is pretty DO friendly. I'd stick with GS. Thanks.

 

[Jack is Back]

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[tiedyeddog]

You're right, also these:
If I'm unable to do these, I will do EM.

Maybe you should consider practicing in Europe. I hear there aren't many D.O.s there?

 

[Jack is Back]

Mods, please lock.

 

[badasshairday]

Wow, just wow.

 

[kazuma]

Well, I was going to drop this but since you want to keep it going...

My original concern is there are a lot of new schools opening up and the medical degree will soon be watered down. With more and more schools, just having a DO or MD won't necessarily be important because newer schools may have poor training.

It's just like law degrees don't mean much anymore, you need to go to a good law school now.

You have a lot to learn if you think DO's are going to water down your medical degree. Our great president is actively trying marginalize physician directed medicine in favor of mid-level providers. Just look at the physician he replaced by a nurse to serve as the next CMS administrator. This is just a tip of the ice burg, dig into the the health care law if you would learn of more ways your medical degree will be "watered down." How are you going to feel when physicians are competing with community college nursing grads who took some online classes to attain their BSN and DNP degrees?

 

[officedepot]

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[TheLesPaul]

This is just a tip of the ice burg,

I like my burgers hot 'n juicy, thank you very much. 😉

 

[yzems3]

You have a lot to learn if you think DO's are going to water down your medical degree. Our great president is actively trying marginalize physician directed medicine in favor of mid-level providers. Just look at the physician he replaced by a nurse to serve as the next CMS administrator. This is just a tip of the ice burg, dig into the the health care law if you would learn of more ways your medical degree will be "watered down." How are you going to feel when physicians are competing with community college nursing grads who took some online classes to attain their BSN and DNP degrees?

The Association of American Medical Colleges also released a statement calling Tavenner “an excellent choice for CMS administrator.”

Thanks, AAMC. 🙁
​

 

[Jack is Back]

You have a lot to learn if you think DO's are going to water down your medical degree. Our great president is actively trying marginalize physician directed medicine in favor of mid-level providers. Just look at the physician he replaced by a nurse to serve as the next CMS administrator. This is just a tip of the ice burg, dig into the the health care law if you would learn of more ways your medical degree will be "watered down." How are you going to feel when physicians are competing with community college nursing grads who took some online classes to attain their BSN and DNP degrees?

Won't happen in surgery or sub-specialties in surgery.

Mid-levels will not be operating on the head, doing abdominal surgery or doing a hip replacement.

I agree with your general sentiment though.

Wow, just wow.

lol, SDN'ers crack me up.🙂

 

[Jack is Back]

exactly. I'd advise avoiding fields where midlevels could easily take over. I would not worry about DOs. Regardless of what you think about the degree, they are much more intelligent and better trained than midlevels.

Good point, probably what the thread should have been directed towards. I tried to lock or change the name to no avail.

 

[Shnurek]

Won't happen in surgery or sub-specialties in surgery.

Mid-levels will not be operating on the head, doing abdominal surgery or doing a hip replacement.

http://www.eyedrd.org/2011/04/optometric-surgical-initiatives-across-the-nation.html

Fear us

 

[officedepot]

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[Jack is Back]

http://www.eyedrd.org/2011/04/optometric-surgical-initiatives-across-the-nation.html

Fear us

lol, doesn't count.

 

[Jack is Back]

yeah and that's basically because no doc will ever train a midlevel to do that. ever. But there are plenty of PAs and DNPs that do basic stuff like harvesting veins, opening the thorax, etc but they don't do the full operation. However it wouldn't surprise me if they think they could do it just as well because they've seen it sooooo many times.

In any case I think the fight with midlevels is a little overblown. I don't think most actually want the responsibility of the physician. Primary care may be in trouble but other than that we all will be fine. And even if midlevels "invade" primary care people would be willing to pay more to see an actual doctor vs a nurse or PA only so it may in the end help the field as a whole. I promise I would never ever go and see a midlevel if I actually thought I was sick or it was something serious and since my threshold is higher than the general population (since I actually have some knowledge) it won't be a problem. So the higher educated, wealthier people will continue to see physicians and the poor on medicare/medicaid whom physicians don't really want to see (since pay sucks) will see midlevels.

There are other specialties that I think stand to be hurt here. EM HAS to see patients. In Washington, Medicaid already tried to cap EM visits by 3 per year which would mean free visits after and forced service. EMs pay structure is in trouble as more and more states will try to force service without paying the hospital.

FM, as you said, seems like midlevels will invade. Anesthesia too is in trouble in that respect. I don't see midlevels affecting: ortho, otolaryngology, urology, general surgery, etc. Furthermore, I think everyone is pretty safe except for anesthesia, FM, and EM. EM is more of a model than a midlevel problem.

 

[45408]

FM, as you said, seems like midlevels will invade. Anesthesia too is in trouble in that respect. I don't see midlevels affecting: ortho, otolaryngology, urology, general surgery, etc. Furthermore, I think everyone is pretty safe except for anesthesia, FM, and EM. EM is more of a model than a midlevel problem.

I still haven't heard of any unemployed anesthesiologists. If they (as a profession) play it smart, they can increase their territory into more and more regional pain management (blocks, spinals and epidurals pay well, to my knowledge), increase their role in SICUs, managing conscious sedation for the zillions of procedures we do nowadays, in addition to their traditional role of managing complex cases and overseeing CRNAs/AA-Cs.