Is it better to be an Average or Below Average MD student or an Above Average DO?

[drmota]

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Ok, Im not flaming you, but I feel that I need to point out that this is not a true statement. You are basically saying that MDs have a better chance at residency in general. Definitely not true becaue DO's have their own osteopathic residencies to apply to. In primary care specialties, there are more than enough osteopathic residencies to go around. Even in specialties outside of primary care, there are plenty of osteopathic programs for those who are qualified. In terms of extremely competitve specialties, I would say MD is a huge "leg up" because DO's don't have very many programs for these (like plastic surgery and derm for examples). I felt compelled to point these things out because there is already way too much misinformation about osteopathic medicine out there.

you're correct. thank you for the composed response. i'm not considering primary care and didn't consider that in my response. but ya, in terms of getting into competitive sub-specialties, DOs take a back seat to MDs.
-mota

 

[medhacker]

i did...i just didnt have anything to contribute 😛

 

[kkbmd2b]

This whole thread seems to be based upon assumptions--does anyone have any actual statistical data about match rates and board scores? No? Okay, well, I did a few searches, and, from what I gather from the USMLE and NBOME sites and published articles (found on PubMed), the following data has been gathered:

For the USMLE Step I:

• ~16,000 allopathic students take the exam each year; ~90% pass
• ~800 osteopathic students take the exam each year; ~75% pass
• ~15,000 foreign (non-US, non-Canadian) students take the exam each year; ~60% pass

For the COMLEX Step I:

• ~2,500 osteopathic students take the exam each year; ~90% pass

For the USMLE Step II:

• ~16,000 allopathic takers; ~90% pass
• ~500 osteopathic takers; ~85% pass
• ~12,000 FMS takers; ~70% pass

For the COMLEX Step II:

• ~1,000 osteopathic takers; ~90% pass

For the USMLE Step III:

• ~16,000 allopathic takers; ~90% pass
• ~100 osteopathic takers; ~90% pass
• ~14,000 FMG takers; ~60% pass

For the COMLEX Step III:

• ~800 osteopathic takers; ~90% pass

Now, these are just rough averages (if you want to look through 10 years of data and generate precise numbers, be my guest, they're all available on the USMLE & NBOME websites), but generally speaking, the difference between the pass rate of allopathic students on the USMLE versus the pass rate of osteopathic students on the COMLEX is negligible. So, basically, both sets of students perform equally well on their board examinations.

Now, I know some of you are going to point out that the osteopathic students pass the USMLE Steps I & II with less frequency than their allopathic counterparts. However, studies show that of the students who pass the USMLE (again, do a PubMed search for the raw data if you want it), osteopathic students score *higher* than their allopathic counterparts. Would allopathic students score higher on the COMLEX than the osteopathic students? It's impossible to say, since the only difference between the training in the allopathic schools and the osteopathic schools is OMM; since OMM is on the COMLEX, allopathic students can't take the COMLEX because they haven't studied OMM.

Interesting information, no?

Basically, IMHO, osteopathic students get the benefit of learning an extra "tool" with which to heal their patients, while allopathic students get the benefit of being the majority. Although many of you have argued that admissions criteria distinguish the difference between the two types of students, I think that, given the *data* on board exam scores, there is ultimately no difference between the quality of a fully licensed M.D. versus a fully licensed D.O. and both types of education prepare one equally well for getting a license.

I personally don't care what initials are after my name or those of my physicians--what makes a difference in being a great doctor ultimately depends on how you act as a clinician.

 

[SigPi]

Again, this is of course going to be true for allopathic residency programs such as the ones that you are reffering to. But DO's have their own residency programs, and it turns that ER is actually a pretty big D.O. field (there are plenty of good osteopathic residencies, especially in Michigan).

Look, as far as choosing between MD and DO goes, if you get into an MD school, I say go for that, but don't write off DO schools, becaues for most of the applicants out there, an osteopathic school can easily get them where they want to be. The last interview I went to was at Medical College of Wisconsin (MD program). While I was there, I met a guy who reapplied for 3 years before getting in. I asked him what specialty he was into, and he said family practice. I then asked if he had ever applied DO, and he said that he didn't. Honestly, that is a terrible choice in my opinion, because DO's are gauranteed a family practice residency if they graduate and they want it. This guy would be 1 year away from being a doctor, instead, he is MS1! If he wanted to go into Neurosurgery, then maybe I could understand going all out for the MD, but for family practice, that is just crazy. Thats why misinformation is bad news, people hear bad things about D.O., then they do stuff like that.

i understand your reasoning with this post, but i have to take issue with it. How many of us (including the guy who wants FP) knows for sure what they want to do 100% when entering school? I dont know what the exact percentage is, however, it is generally accepted that you will change your mind at some point in medical school on which specialty you will choose. You have to be a frighteningly deluded pre-med to believe you know what its like to be a ______ologist or a ______ surgeon, i dont care how much you've shadowed. You will never really know until you get there and do some work yourself.

It's not that DO education is inferior to MD --thats not the issue at all (and if you believe it is, sorry youre an idiot). Point being, the DO degree will limit your opportunities/choices for post graduate training. Like it or not it is an MD medical world. MD schools generally have more funding, more resources and MOST IMORTANTLY MORE RESIDENCIES, especially in competitive fields. So why not give yourself the best chance at the widest varitey of choices, save yourself some $, and go MD?

 

[NRAI2001]

Where do you guys think carribean students (SGU or ROSS primarily) fit in this scenario? More,Less, equally competitive as DOs for competitive residencies?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Where do you guys think carribean students (SGU or ROSS primarily) fit in this scenario? More,Less, equally competitive as DOs for competitive residencies?

Less. This has been discussed extensively.

 

[Law2Doc]

generally speaking, the difference between the pass rate of allopathic students on the USMLE versus the pass rate of osteopathic students on the COMLEX is negligible. So, basically, both sets of students perform equally well on their board examinations.

Now, I know some of you are going to point out that the osteopathic students pass the USMLE Steps I & II with less frequency than their allopathic counterparts. However, studies show that of the students who pass the USMLE (again, do a PubMed search for the raw data if you want it), osteopathic students score *higher* than their allopathic counterparts. Would allopathic students score higher on the COMLEX than the osteopathic students? It's impossible to say, since the only difference between the training in the allopathic schools and the osteopathic schools is OMM; since OMM is on the COMLEX, allopathic students can't take the COMLEX because they haven't studied OMM.

Interesting information, no?

No. I'm not sure I understand your point. If you want to do an allo residency, you have to take the USMLE. Significantly more of the more competitive residency tracks/spots are available for those going this route, which I'm sure is why many DO candidates take the USMLE. Step 1 covers material that should be covered in both allo and osteo med schools, and so a lower pass rate is a bad thing, regardless of whether the folks in osteo who pass pass with a higher score - especially given that this is a self selecting group anyhow, as DO's are not required to take USMLE for their own residency tracks. (And what you have suggested is actually very unscientific massaging of the numbers -- to drop out all those who fail from your analysis and compare very unequal percentages who pass - statisticians will tell you this is not acceptable practice/analysis, and will give you a misleading result, FYI). There is no clamoring I am aware of for allo students to be allowed to take the COMLEX. I have heard no suggestion that OMM would be something hard for allo students to learn or somehow beyond their aptitude, and in fact some allo med schools offer it as an elective, for those who are interested.

 

[kkbmd2b]

No. I'm not sure I understand your point. If you want to do an allo residency, you have to take the USMLE.

The question being asked in this thread, as far as I understood it, was "is it better to be an average or below average MD student or an above average DO?" I gather that the easiest way to measure whether there is a substantial difference between the two is to compare (as best we can, given that both sets of students take slightly different exams) how the two groups perform on the licensing exams. [As opposed to comparing less easily comparable data, such as where people place for residency, considering how subjective that process is when you consider all the factors, e.g. specialty, location, etc.]

Significantly more of the more competitive residency tracks/spots are available for those going this route

Again, perhaps I missed the point of the OPs question, but what does applying to a more competitive residency have to do with whether one is a better MD student or a better DO student, or which type of student it is "preferable" to be? There are certainly more allopathic residencies--that's a given--but does the fact that some of them are uber-competitive mean that being an outstanding DO student makes you ineligible for one of these residencies? I think not. [Caveat: Perhaps I think not because I worked in a medical school where someone literally *bought* a seat in one of these residency programs after *not* matching there.... Just as in medical school admissions, I think that there are far more subjective qualities that determine whether a student gets in or not than we'd like to realize.... IMHO, of course--it is completely a matter of perspective.]

which I'm sure is why many DO candidates take the USMLE.

Erm, I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but did you read the data I posted? The fraction of DO candidates who take the USMLE is infinitesimal compared to the quantity of MD candidates who sit for the exam.

Step 1 covers material that should be covered in both allo and osteo med schools, and so a lower pass rate is a bad thing, regardless of whether the folks in osteo who pass pass with a higher score - especially given that this is a self selecting group anyhow, as DO's are not required to take USMLE for their own residency tracks. (And what you have suggested is actually very unscientific massaging of the numbers -- to drop out all those who fail from your analysis and compare very unequal percentages who pass - statisticians will tell you this is not acceptable practice/analysis, and will give you a misleading result, FYI).

(1) the material is covered in both schools, but with different emphasis. Also, the allopathic group is "self-selecting," as well, considering that most schools only allow certain students to sit for the exam (DO schools may not have this filter in place for the USMLE, given that students choose to take it independently...I'm not certain). (2) I was comparing allopathic students who pass with osteopathic students who pass--both groups of *passing* students when I made the comparison. Now, I'm no statistician, and wouldn't claim to be, but I brought the comparison up because it's posted in a published article. [Again, if you want to pick at a point like this, then go read the journal article yourself. I pointed it out when presenting data simply because I figured if it was published and cataloged in PubMed, there had to be some scientific validity to it.]

There is no clamoring I am aware of for allo students to be allowed to take the COMLEX. I have heard no suggestion that OMM would be something hard for allo students to learn or somehow beyond their aptitude, and in fact some allo med schools offer it as an elective, for those who are interested.

I wasn't suggesting that there was a clamoring for this; I didn't suggest that allopathic students would have difficulty with OMM; the OMM covered in osteopathic schools is much more in-depth and comprehensive than elective somewhere else could offer. My point in saying that allopathic students can't take the COMLEX is to illustrate that we can't predict how an allopathic student would perform on the COMLEX because they can't take it, whereas the reverse is true with the osteopathic students taking the USMLE. I was merely mentioning this because, again, even with data, it seems impossible to fully and accurately compare both groups of students and determine which is "better."

Regardless of all the data jazz, however, perhaps a more relevant question in this whole dialogue is this: what is with this incessant need for people on this forum to compare things?!?!?!? Honestly--to the OP, I would simply say, why don't you simply do what feels right to you and stop worrying about what's "better"? Realistically, it is *impossible* to ever know, truly, if there is a difference between MD and DO students. My point was to illustrate that the most concrete data we have--board scores--shows little to no difference between the pass rates of the two types of students in their own exams. It's the only bit of comparable data I could find to answer your question and I looked it up because I was curious to see what was out there. IMHO, however, none of this matters in the big picture. If you want to be an outstanding physician, you have to choose whichever path is best for you to become one, however you define "outstanding" to be. But that, in a nutshell, is just my $0.02, for whatever it's worth.

 

[Gut Shot]

Again, if you want to pick at a point like this, then go read the journal article yourself.

I'd love to, just as soon as you bother to cite it.

 

[OSUdoc08]

No. I'm not sure I understand your point. If you want to do an allo residency, you have to take the USMLE. Significantly more of the more competitive residency tracks/spots are available for those going this route, which I'm sure is why many DO candidates take the USMLE. Step 1 covers material that should be covered in both allo and osteo med schools, and so a lower pass rate is a bad thing, regardless of whether the folks in osteo who pass pass with a higher score - especially given that this is a self selecting group anyhow, as DO's are not required to take USMLE for their own residency tracks. (And what you have suggested is actually very unscientific massaging of the numbers -- to drop out all those who fail from your analysis and compare very unequal percentages who pass - statisticians will tell you this is not acceptable practice/analysis, and will give you a misleading result, FYI). There is no clamoring I am aware of for allo students to be allowed to take the COMLEX. I have heard no suggestion that OMM would be something hard for allo students to learn or somehow beyond their aptitude, and in fact some allo med schools offer it as an elective, for those who are interested.

This is a false statement. The majority of ACGME residencies will accept the COMLEX.

 

[Gut Shot]

Erm, I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but did you read the data I posted? The fraction of DO candidates who take the USMLE is infinitesimal compared to the quantity of MD candidates who sit for the exam.

The proportion is irrelevant if the sample size is large enough (which it is). I'm no stats whiz, either, but using my handy chi-square calculator I can demonstrate that there is a significant difference between the pass rates of MD and DO students for even a single year (p < 0.001).

 

[Law2Doc]

The proportion is irrelevant if the sample size is large enough (which it is). I'm no stats whiz, either, but using my handy chi-square calculator I can demonstrate that there is a significant difference between the pass rates of MD and DO students for even a single year (p < 0.001).

Exactly.
To kkbmd2b, I was responding you your post without reference to the OPs question, which I think I and others addressed previously in the thread. In response to your post, what I was trying to say is that if you have two groups who took the same test, and it is numerically scored (as it is), then to do any reasonable analysis, you must compare the whole range of numbers of one group to that of the other to get the best data, or adjust them proportionately. Once you start, say, cutting off all the failing grades, when one group has significantly (20% more of the total) more candidates in this data set by percentage of that data group than the other, the numbers become drastically less accurate. Thus saying the average of the DO applicants who passed is higher than those MD's who passed is flawed, because you have already truncated this group by a higher percentage than the other (i.e. dropped the lowest 30% of DOs versus the lowest 10% of MDs). That's what the statisticians will tell you is dirty pool. You could drop the lowest 10% of each group, or the lowest 30% of each group, and that might be statistically justifiable if you assert they are outliers, but that likely wouldn't get you the results you seek. To use different percentages, to get a certain result, is what we call massaging the data, aka fudging.

 

[rup47]

...you would likely be taking the same boards wherever you were coming from...

exactly, a DO can even the field by taking the USMLE. In that case a DO with higher scores on the USMLE than the MD will probably be considered before the MD in my opinion

 

[Law2Doc]

exactly, a DO can even the field by taking the USMLE. In that case a DO with higher scores on the USMLE than the MD will probably be considered before the MD in my opinion

Unless you are a residency director, your opinion is not going to carry the day. There are some specialties and programs in which DOs match very successfully. There are also some specialties and programs, often some of the more competitive ones, where DOs have not fared as well, notwithstanding board scores.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

exactly, a DO can even the field by taking the USMLE. In that case a DO with higher scores on the USMLE than the MD will probably be considered before the MD in my opinion

Tell that to residency directors in surgery! No way! Also, note how Caribbean MD's with very high USMLE scores are still not matched into some competitive programs? US MD > DO > Caribbean, in terms of ease of matching, board scores equal, esp into non-FP. No one said it's impossible, but it's just more difficult, plain and simple.

 

[Taus]

As long as people can plainly see that it is only in "some highly competative specialties in SOME places" and NOT OVERALL....then even as a DO student I will concede and agree w/ that. It's only when people talk about DO's having any trouble matching in the grand scheme of things does it represent blatant misinformation....and quite frankly pi$$ some people off...

 

[Law2Doc]

As long as people can plainly see that it is only in "some highly competative specialties in SOME places" and NOT OVERALL....then even as a DO student I will concede and agree w/ that. It's only when people talk about DO's having any trouble matching in the grand scheme of things does it represent blatant misinformation....and quite frankly pi$$ some people off...

Sure - there is a shortage of doctors right now, and so there likely will be a slot somewhere for all licensed US MDs, all DOs and quite a few foreign schooled docs. Within this overall positive career outlook context, there will still be certain competitive specialty doors, that DOs will have a tougher time getting their foot in than US allo MDs. There may also be some regional bias. I think that sums up the consensus of this thread, and hardly a revelation.

 

[Taus]

Sure - there is a shortage of doctors right now, and so there likely will be a slot somewhere for all licensed US MDs, all DOs and quite a few foreign schooled docs. Within this overall positive career outlook context, there will still be certain competitive specialty doors, that DOs will have a tougher time getting their foot in than US allo MDs. There may also be some regional bias. I think that sums up the consensus of this thread, and hardly a revelation.

With the amount of misinformation that gets thrown around here on SDN I'm sure that there are plenty of people who truly think that the situation is very different from what you and I have mentioned. Sad, but true...

 

[Gut Shot]

As long as people can plainly see that it is only in "some highly competative specialties in SOME places" and NOT OVERALL....

To harken back to the OP's original question, it would make no sense to compare DO and MD matching success into noncompetitive specialties. To measure the "opportunity differential" between the two degress one has to focus on the areas where there is greater competition for spots. That is where one can ascertain how wide and deep the anti-DO bias may run.

In any case, let me break the original question into two parts:

1. Is there a difference in OVERALL opportunity for matching/specialty choice when comparing MDs and DOs?

The answer is yes. We can quibble on the size of the inequity, but it's there. I have worked with four DO residents in my life (all of them excellent, and ranging in specialty from vascular surgery to neurology to pathology), and to them the existence of the uphill battle isn't a question. They have all been stuck searching for DO-friendly programs to train in, and while it turned out well for them, none would claim that their opportunities and ease-of-matching was equivalent to their MD counterparts.

2. Would being "above average" at a generic DO school negate this difference when compared to being "below average" at a generic MD school.

Here is where it gets sticky. When I ponder this scenario, I imagine someone in the second quartile of his DO school up against someone in the third quartile of his MD school. Given how tightly the folks in the middle tend to group in med school, I'd say that OVERALL the advantage probably goes to the MD.

Now, if they both apply to a residency program with zero bias then, all else being equal, the DO should edge the MD on the rank list. Like it or not, however, the MD will have a significant edge in the eyes of many allopathic residency programs. This can be true both in competitive fields and in prestigious programs for not-so-competitive fields. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that's how it is.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

I'm not going to point statistics or anything of the such. It is all quite irrelevant. This program over that, this score over that, none of that **** matters to a 75 year old man with shortness of breath and radiating chest pain. I'm sure there doctors out there who graduated from top 10 allopathic med schools who I wouldn't trust to remove my ingrown toenail.

That being said and having been thru the residency matching trail, at least at the programs I applied to, DOs were more of the exception than the norm. Now I can't claim to know why that is, but in regards to picking DO over MD, I think a reason DOs aren't as common in allopathic residencies is simply philosophy and ultimate career goals. For me, I knew I wanted to be in academia and teach as well as have clinical responsibilites. Along those lines, I only interviewed at large academic institutes (which tend to the highly ranked, competitive residencies, though that honestly means very little) and not community based residencies. From what I've understood (and I may be completely wrong), DOs tend to be more interested in the hands on, primary care approach to medicine which isn't what the large academic institutes strive for (regardless of what their mission statement says). Therefore, to me, DOs represent more of the community based physicians, while MDs represent more of the academic based physicians (and I don't mean that in the smartest or best senses of the word). But off course, there are exceptions to this.

So I see DOs having a more community based career goal and MDs having a more hospital based goal, but like I said these are just my observations and by no means facts. And regardless of this, you have to go where you feel like you fit the best because in the end, the patient could give a rats ass.

 

[mtDNA]

i understand your reasoning with this post, but i have to take issue with it. How many of us (including the guy who wants FP) knows for sure what they want to do 100% when entering school? I dont know what the exact percentage is, however, it is generally accepted that you will change your mind at some point in medical school on which specialty you will choose. You have to be a frighteningly deluded pre-med to believe you know what its like to be a ______ologist or a ______ surgeon, i dont care how much you've shadowed. You will never really know until you get there and do some work yourself.

It's not that DO education is inferior to MD --thats not the issue at all (and if you believe it is, sorry youre an idiot). Point being, the DO degree will limit your opportunities/choices for post graduate training. Like it or not it is an MD medical world. MD schools generally have more funding, more resources and MOST IMORTANTLY MORE RESIDENCIES, especially in competitive fields. So why not give yourself the best chance at the widest varitey of choices, save yourself some $, and go MD?

In the example I gave, the guy waited 3 years. That is an awfully long time to wait for something that most likely will make no difference in his future. Again, DO path would give him more than enough oppurtunity to land an osteopathic residency in most specialties. The only exceptions are the most competitive specialties, because DOs don't have too many programs for those. So...unless he is going to change to a surgical subspecialty or derm, DO route would be just fine.
As far as "why not give yourself the best chance at the widest variety of choices, save yourself $, and go MD", I agree with this wholeheartedly. All other things being equal, you may as well go MD. However, I am pointing out that there are many people who reapply for many years to just MD, when they could have been just as happy with DO route. I agree that MD is the better way to go, but the negative aspects of DO route are definitely exaggerated in the premed community, which is what I am trying to battle with these posts. Again, DO is really not a disadvantage unless you want a highly specialized residency.

 

[NonTradMed]

In the example I gave, the guy waited 3 years. That is an awfully long time to wait for something that most likely will make no difference in his future. Again, DO path would give him more than enough oppurtunity to land an osteopathic residency in most specialties. The only exceptions are the most competitive specialties, because DOs don't have too many programs for those. So...unless he is going to change to a surgical subspecialty or derm, DO route would be just fine.
As far as "why not give yourself the best chance at the widest variety of choices, save yourself $, and go MD", I agree with this wholeheartedly. All other things being equal, you may as well go MD. However, I am pointing out that there are many people who reapply for many years to just MD, when they could have been just as happy with DO route. I agree that MD is the better way to go, but the negative aspects of DO route are definitely exaggerated in the premed community, which is what I am trying to battle with these posts. Again, DO is really not a disadvantage unless you want a highly specialized residency.

👍

Agree 100%. I think alot of people who are caught in the DO vs. MD debate don't realize that most MD students won't get into the highly competitive programs so it's not like attending a DO school will put you at a severe disadvantage as compared to an MD one.

That said, if all else is equal (got into both MD and DO), and you want to expand your options, MD is the better option for residency and licensing in some areas of the country, but don't write off DO has some kind of second rate degree that will only get you into family practice in rural iowa----the DO degree will still make you a competent doctor as long as you study hard and kick ass on board---ditto for MD degree.

If one is to compare 'above average DO' vs 'below average MD', that will depend on location I think. In some anti-DO places, the MD will win out, but in DO friendly places, DO, methinks if all else is equal, will win out.

In the end, the difference between DO and MD is small for most people and it is a viable path for many future doctors.

 

[NRAI2001]

👍

Agree 100%. I think alot of people who are caught in the DO vs. MD debate don't realize that most MD students won't get into the highly competitive programs so it's not like attending a DO school will put you at a severe disadvantage as compared to an MD one.

That said, if all else is equal (got into both MD and DO), and you want to expand your options, MD is the better option for residency and licensing in some areas of the country, but don't write off DO has some kind of second rate degree that will only get you into family practice in rural iowa----the DO degree will still make you a competent doctor as long as you study hard and kick ass on board---ditto for MD degree.

If one is to compare 'above average DO' vs 'below average MD', that will depend on location I think. In some anti-DO places, the MD will win out, but in DO friendly places, DO, methinks if all else is equal, will win out.

In the end, the difference between DO and MD is small for most people and it is a viable path for many future doctors.

WHich states do you consider to be anti-DO?

 

[Rafa]

WHich states do you consider to be anti-DO?

If I may interject, I don't think it's nearly as wide as entire states that frown upon Dos as much as certain residencies. FE, a residency might be very 'traditional' in the sense of preferring MDs, or it might be apprehensive/very competitive, etc, with board members who still show favoritism toward the kind of degree they earned when comparing equally-matched candidates.

But that's a hypothesis. I just don't think it's like "you can't practice neurosurgery with a DO in New York", or anything that black-and-white.

 

[NonTradMed]

WHich states do you consider to be anti-DO?

I've heard that places where DO schools aren't prevelent tend to be more anti-DO such as western states, and the Boston area. I've also heard that the south is surprisingly antiDO as compared to the rest of the country, perhaps because of the lack of DO schools in those areas. But I don't think it's huge, there are still those that holds onto an old school view of the MD vs. DO debate. In the end, I think competency will win out over whatever you initials are in behind your name.

 

[lilnoelle]

RIDDLE!!!

What do you call a medical student that graduates absolute dead-last in their medical class (at any medical school, M.D. or D.O.)?

Doctor... What do doctor's call their peer that graduates dead-last in their medical class? Pathologist

(I don't have anything against pathologists, thats just how the joke goes.)

 

[OSUdoc08]

Doctor... What do doctor's call their peer that graduates dead-last in their medical class? Pathologist

(I don't have anything against pathologists, thats just how the joke goes.)

I disagree. Pathology can be pretty competitive.

The correct answer is:

Family Medicine Physician.

 

[jjmack]

The correct answer is doctor. Depending on what school then you may have more doors still open...

 

[skypilot]

I've heard that places where DO schools aren't prevelent tend to be more anti-DO such as western states, and the Boston area.

It is probably true of Boston. But University of Massachusetts, about an hour out of Boston, is very DO friendly and even has an dually accredited Osteopathic-Allopathic rotating internship.

 

[Plastikos]

Ok, Im not flaming you, but I feel that I need to point out that this is not a true statement. You are basically saying that MDs have a better chance at residency in general. Definitely not true becaue DO's have their own osteopathic residencies to apply to. In primary care specialties, there are more than enough osteopathic residencies to go around. Even in specialties outside of primary care, there are plenty of osteopathic programs for those who are qualified. In terms of extremely competitve specialties, I would say MD is a huge "leg up" because DO's don't have very many programs for these (like plastic surgery and derm for examples). I felt compelled to point these things out because there is already way too much misinformation about osteopathic medicine out there.

Please dont come back and flame me, I myself know many good DOs and know the schools train competent drs, but im trying to show you the way it is in reality, not how it should be. Nor do residency programs care much about your interactions as a physician, etc...as someone mentioned. Your job is to secure the interview to the residency, which is best accomplished through a good school, great scores, and LOR. Really that is most of what matters.

MDs do have in general a better chance in any residency they want, sans osteo specific. Look, most of you are in college right now and are taught to be nice/open and from reading and remembering myself, are EXTREMELY NAIVE about medicine. Medicine is a field ran by a bunch of older people with older views based largely on old schools of thought and lots of stereotypes. If you think the first thought most drs. have when they see a DO student isnt second rate, your wrong.

Talk all you want about DO residency programs, etc...Its beside the point. Your job right now is to not close any doors in your life, and most certainly you will close a large percentage of them with a DO. This would be akin to scoring in the lower quartile in the MCAT/USMLEs, you have effective closed doors to certain schools and specialties.

By going DO you will have less options to choose from overall, and you want to have the power to choose. Now, if for some reason you just KNOW your going to do family practice, fine, but most people dont know for sure until theyve tried it. Even then, you would likely be edged out by MDs at the better programs and locations.

Many of the views expressed on this thread are good and deserved towards the DO schools, but it doesnt reflect the attitude of the people that are currently in charge.
Also, its generally a bad idea to take to heart the advice of another pre-med students/someone at your level's view on these matters, they are just as in the dark as you. You must to the next level and ask those people. I encourage you to go to the subspecialty forums and ask their opinion.

BTW, MSIV-Plastics app.

 

[bigfrank]

I disagree. Pathology can be pretty competitive.

The correct answer is:

Family Medicine Physician.

Posts like this are embarrassing, especially since 80-90% of your classmates will be fine FPs.

Come on, you can surely do better. You've got Goljan!!!

 

[dr.z]

Posts like this are embarrassing, especially since 80-90% of your classmates will be fine FPs.

Come on, you can surely do better. You've got Goljan!!!

 

[OSUdoc08]

Posts like this are embarrassing, especially since 80-90% of your classmates will be fine FPs.

Come on, you can surely do better. You've got Goljan!!!

You can't deny that the majority of AOA residencies that go unfilled more and more every year are family medicine spots.

These are the least competitive spots and just about anyone can get a spot somewhere.

This is not to say that the top person in the class may enter family medicine.

 

[mofonation]

It has been seven days now since I learned that I was accepted to the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences freshman class of 2006 (graduating class of 2010) and six days since I sent my letter of intent, with coat size and technical standards waiver, etc. Yeah! I'm still pumped, but the only issue now is in finding a couple more people who have been accepted and will be in the class with me.. maybe its just anxiousness, but I'd like to meet some of my fellow classmates now, so if any of you are out there, then please let me know! Congratulations to everyone who made it on SDN and to everyone who didn't, don't give up.. it is worth it!

P.S. Any advice on what to do w/ the five or six months of my life before I start med. school? The pre-gunners may say start studying, but that can't be a healthy approach..lol.. In general, I can't seem to get a more creative answer than: "just enjoy it".. but maybe because that's the correct answer! Who knows. Any feedback would be appreciated.


-UAMS class of 2010



"Sometimes the presence of one virtue hides the absence of another."

 

[Law2Doc]

P.S. Any advice on what to do w/ the five or six months of my life before I start med. school? The pre-gunners may say start studying, but that can't be a healthy approach..lol.. In general, I can't seem to get a more creative answer than: "just enjoy it".. but maybe because that's the correct answer! Who knows. Any feedback would be appreciated.

I'm afraid the true answer is - enjoy yourself and relax. You will be doing plenty of studying in a few months, and no need to start earlier. You have no idea what the courses will emphasize, and are far more likely to focus on the wrong things, and perhaps even have to unlearn some stuff you learned wrong. There is little you can do between now and then that will help you much. My suggestion is work out a lot now, as you may have to cut back your gym schedule during exam weeks, and get your fill of weekday primetime TV, as you may not find as much time to watch other than a few select shows. Congrats. Relax. Enjoy the calm before the storm.

 

[Pox in a box]

I disagree. Pathology can be pretty competitive.

The correct answer is:

Family Medicine Physician.

I hope you don't have to "settle."

 

[anon-y-mouse]

You can't deny that the majority of AOA residencies that go unfilled more and more every year are family medicine spots.

These are the least competitive spots and just about anyone can get a spot somewhere.

This is not to say that the top person in the class may enter family medicine.

Yep, this again shows how unfair the system is. All the "ultra competitive" equivalent residencies, in DO form, should be open to MD graduates as well. If the trend is true, that more and more AOA residencies are going unfilled, this just reaffirms that DO is merely a backdoor way into medicine. OMM is most likely not required for most of these highly competitive residencies (for example, dermatology!), and if necessary, can be learned through CME. no wonder osteopathy has come so far and DO branch schools are opening up almost as often as caribbean medical schools.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I hope you don't have to "settle."

Don't worry. I won't. Thanks for the support, though.

 

[Gut Shot]

Doctor... What do doctor's call their peer that graduates dead-last in their medical class? Pathologist

Don't hate us because we have home call...

 

[USArmyDoc]

Yep, this again shows how unfair the system is. All the "ultra competitive" equivalent residencies, in DO form, should be open to MD graduates as well. If the trend is true, that more and more AOA residencies are going unfilled, this just reaffirms that DO is merely a backdoor way into medicine. OMM is most likely not required for most of these highly competitive residencies (for example, dermatology!), and if necessary, can be learned through CME. no wonder osteopathy has come so far and DO branch schools are opening up almost as often as caribbean medical schools.

Anon-y-mouse...congratulations on your acceptance to Tulane. However, sometimes you can come off arrogant. 😡

 

[medhacker]

Yep, this again shows how unfair the system is. All the "ultra competitive" equivalent residencies, in DO form, should be open to MD graduates as well.

I disagree, if osteopathic medicine wishes to be able to compete it must guarantee those who subscribe to its philosophy ("students") that they will have a safe haven [Osteopathic GME] to learn and specialize in - otherwise if you adhere to the philosophy, why would you support it if it did not guarantee you could become trained?

If the trend is true, that more and more AOA residencies are going unfilled, this just reaffirms that DO is merely a backdoor way into medicine.

There is more to why most of these go unfilled than DO students simply prefering MD residencies just for being MD residencies. Did you consider location? (location of the DO residencies vs MD residencies), how about the cases where an MD residency would actually be shorter than a DO residency?

OMM is most likely not required for most of these highly competitive residencies (for example, dermatology!), and if necessary, can be learned through CME.

osteopathic medicine is more than MD + OMM.

no wonder osteopathy has come so far and DO branch schools are opening up almost as often as caribbean medical schools.

There is a financial factor in all this - even U.S. MD schools are businesses in most cases for a profit, so there really isn't anything new here. Medicine is a business [some call it a mafia LOL] and those in power AMA, AOA etc will do all they can to retain (and actually obtain more if they can) the power they have achieved. Don't hate the player(s) hate the game...

 

[DrBowtie]

Don't hate us because we have home call...

Ha. Path is up there on my list.

 

[NRAI2001]

Yep, this again shows how unfair the system is. All the "ultra competitive" equivalent residencies, in DO form, should be open to MD graduates as well. If the trend is true, that more and more AOA residencies are going unfilled, this just reaffirms that DO is merely a backdoor way into medicine. OMM is most likely not required for most of these highly competitive residencies (for example, dermatology!), and if necessary, can be learned through CME. no wonder osteopathy has come so far and DO branch schools are opening up almost as often as caribbean medical schools.

What does that have to do with anything at all?

Tulane isnt considered the best MD school either? Is it a backdoor into medicine also? Couldnt you have gone to a better school? Why settle for Tulane when there is Harvard? You should continue with post bacc studies till you get to Harvard, bc without a Medical education as great as Harvards you re just a poser.

I dont think anyone can make statements like that, unless if your at harvard; then you have my permission to.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

What does that have to do with anything at all?

Tulane isnt considered the best MD school either? Is it a backdoor into medicine also? Couldnt you have gone to a better school? Why settle for Tulane when there is Harvard? You should continue with post bacc studies till you get to Harvard, bc without a Medical education as great as Harvards you re just a poser.

I dont think anyone can make statements like that, unless if your at harvard; then you have my permission to.

I also have acceptances to Mount Sinai and other top ranked schools. My reasons for attending Tulane (actually, I might not, but that's another story) are very personal in nature -- having largely to do with family and relationship issues. I did not apply to HMS. I don't need your "permission" to do anything, because the academic success I have achieved thus far stands for itself. My GPA is competitive, my MCAT score is above 40, and the rest of my application is great. Calling me a poser won't help, because not only is that personal insult useless, but at the end of the day, I am going to be an MD. Where does that leave you? Learn to make legitimate arguments, rather than attacking people.

Judging by your other posts, you seem to have squandered your undergraduate education, hence seeking out alternative paths. Take your own advice?

 

[Taus]

time to pull out the popcorn for this thread....let the pissing contest officially begin....

 

[USArmyDoc]

I also have acceptances to Mount Sinai and other top ranked schools. My reasons for attending Tulane (actually, I might not, but that's another story) are very personal in nature -- having largely to do with family and relationship issues. I did not apply to HMS. I don't need your "permission" to do anything, because the academic success I have achieved thus far stands for itself. My GPA is competitive, my MCAT score is above 40, and the rest of my application is great. Calling me a poser won't help, because not only is that personal insult useless, but at the end of the day, I am going to be an MD. Where does that leave you? Learn to make legitimate arguments, rather than attacking people.

Judging by your other posts, you seem to have squandered your undergraduate education, hence seeking out alternative paths. Take your own advice?

Alittle nasty don't ya think? 👎

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Alittle nasty don't ya think? 👎

Maybe a little, but NRAI's post was asinine to begin with. So far, no one has disputed my gripe about allowing MD's into osteopathic residencies such as radiology. This, combined with the rapidly decreasing matches into DO residencies paints a telling picture. I'm confdent in my own abilities, and I think everyone who is capable and has the intellectual capacity and promise should become doctors... DO or MD, they will be my future colleagues, I'm not going to be a snob about it. However, until the inequality is addressed, I'm still going to have a negative view of the American Osteopathic Association's policies.

 

[NRAI2001]

I also have acceptances to Mount Sinai and other top ranked schools. My reasons for attending Tulane (actually, I might not, but that's another story) are very personal in nature -- having largely to do with family and relationship issues. I did not apply to HMS. I don't need your "permission" to do anything, because the academic success I have achieved thus far stands for itself. My GPA is competitive, my MCAT score is above 40, and the rest of my application is great. Calling me a poser won't help, because not only is that personal insult useless, but at the end of the day, I am going to be an MD. Where does that leave you? Learn to make legitimate arguments, rather than attacking people.

Judging by your other posts, you seem to have squandered your undergraduate education, hence seeking out alternative paths. Take your own advice?

My post was meant to be sarcastic. You said DOs are a backdoor into medicine. I was just pointing out that no one can draw a line to what a backdoor is. A HMS student might think that people at lower ranking med schools maybe taking the "backdoor into medicine".

I am going to be an MD. Where does that leave you? Learn to make legitimate arguments, rather than attacking people.

I dont understand what you meant by this? Are you attempting an attack on anyone who isnt an MD? Why such an anti-DO stance?

Before you get to medschool work on your reading comp. You have my permission to. 👍

 

[USArmyDoc]

Maybe a little, but NRAI's post was asinine to begin with. So far, no one has disputed my gripe about allowing MD's into osteopathic residencies such as radiology. This, combined with the rapidly decreasing matches into DO residencies paints a telling picture. I'm confdent in my own abilities, and I think everyone who is capable and has the intellectual capacity and promise should become doctors... DO or MD, they will be my future colleagues, I'm not going to be a snob about it. However, until the inequality is addressed, I'm still going to have a negative view of the American Osteopathic Association's policies.

True, you have some good pts.

 

[NRAI2001]

Maybe a little, but NRAI's post was asinine to begin with. So far, no one has disputed my gripe about allowing MD's into osteopathic residencies such as radiology. This, combined with the rapidly decreasing matches into DO residencies paints a telling picture. I'm confdent in my own abilities, and I think everyone who is capable and has the intellectual capacity and promise should become doctors... DO or MD, they will be my future colleagues, I'm not going to be a snob about it. However, until the inequality is addressed, I'm still going to have a negative view of the American Osteopathic Association's policies.

this just reaffirms that DO is merely a backdoor way into medicine.

You flip flopper, stop flip flopping