Is it getting harder for PhD's to find a post doc?

[hopefuldoc97239]

A friend of mine just finished his PhD in neuroscience. He tells me he can't find a post doc job.

He says that a lot of labs where he's made inquiries tell them that they're cutting back their staff.

I also wonder: With competition for faculty positions becoming increasingly competitive, isn't there probably an ever-increasing backlog of PhD's stuck in post docs?

Any other stories out there you'd like to share?

This is just a curiosity for me because I'm already pretty convinced that the education system is training waaay too many PhD's, and I like hearing stories that confirm my opinion

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[jmt1984]

A friend of mine just finished his PhD in neuroscience. He tells me he can't find a post doc job.

He says that a lot of labs where he's made inquiries tell them that they're cutting back their staff.

I also wonder: With competition for faculty positions becoming increasingly competitive, isn't there probably an ever-increasing backlog of PhD's stuck in post docs?

Any other stories out there you'd like to share?

This is just a curiosity for me because I'm already pretty convinced that the education system is training waaay too many PhD's, and I like hearing stories that confirm my opinion

I think that it depends on the field, but yes it seems to be getting more competitive. There are many qualified people graduating, and grants are becoming increasingly difficult to get. At the research univerisity where I work, there are many different PIs who are cutting back, or not getting grants, which they have been for years. The average PhD is spending longer as a postdoc as well, 5 or 6 years over 2 different postdocs is not unheard of, it may actually be the average. I recently read that the average age of a person who obtains their first RO1 grant is about 40 years old.

That being said, I also know extremely smart PhDs who spend 3 years in a postdoc and received multiple grants, and landed competitive tenure track faculty positions. I think with the grant situation getting more difficult, having a PI who will fight for you is extremely important.

There was an interesting article a few weeks back in either Nature or Science that discussed your observation: to many PhDs are graduating for too few faculty positions.

 

[PfNO22]

A friend of mine just finished his PhD in neuroscience. He tells me he can't find a post doc job.

It's because too many people are studying Neuroscience!

 

[whiteshadodw]

It's because too many people are studying Neuroscience!

its just the state of things right now. NIH funding only went up slightly, which doesn't even compete with inflation. research funding isn't keeping up with inflation. money = the cause of all problems essentially.

 

[tortuga87]

Wow... I know it's hard to get faculty positions, but this is just a new low

 

[Rouelle]

I may be a couple years behind the curve on this, but here is my story. I graduated with a PhD (organic chemistry) in spring of 2006. I began applying for postdoc positions in September of 2005. My publication count was around 20 at the time. My initial wave of applications included sending out my CV/info to my 7 top choices. Of those, I received 2 immediate rejections. Two PI's got in touch and said they would take me if I brought funding with me (eg NIH postdoc fellowship). Three invited me to interview. I went on one interview, got an offer, and declined the other two.

According to then junior faculty at my grad school, 10 years prior a posdoc position could be found with as little as 1-2 months lead time before graduation. In person postdoc interviews were rare. The problem was that there was such an over supply of PhDs in the work force (both new PhDs and older ones whose work had been outsourced) that a postdoc was required for virtually any position. The result was that postdoc positions became more competitive.

Of course, in 2005/06, the economy was stronger than now, so I guess it is probably worse now. Anyway, that's what's happening in chemistry. Maybe other sciences are faring better.

 

[Silverfalcon]

Hmm...I think it really comes down to:
1) What kind of publications you have (note: publications have "levels" - just because you have 30 publications don't mean much compared to say 2-3 publications from really respectful journal)
2) Who you did your research with
3) Where you did your research with
4) How involved you in your research (i.e. were you just coming up with your experiments, or did you actually do full background search, met with your PI and convinced him, etc..)?

I'm hesitant to believe that it's getting harder. There was an article from ACS magazine saying that the number is up (for people looking for job), but without knowing their qualifications, it's not fully accurate to judge.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

Hmm...I think it really comes down to:
1) What kind of publications you have (note: publications have "levels" - just because you have 30 publications don't mean much compared to say 2-3 publications from really respectful journal)
2) Who you did your research with
3) Where you did your research with
4) How involved you in your research (i.e. were you just coming up with your experiments, or did you actually do full background search, met with your PI and convinced him, etc..)?

I'm hesitant to believe that it's getting harder. There was an article from ACS magazine saying that the number is up (for people looking for job), but without knowing their qualifications, it's not fully accurate to judge.

Yeah, well obviously #1-4 all play into an individual's job hunt.

But I'm a little confused by your last paragraph. You don't think it's harder to find a job, even though the number of people looking for a job is increasing? Surely when more people are looking for a job that isn't a sign that it's easier to find one, right? Quite the opposite, I think.

Of course, the people with the least impressive resumes are going to have the hardest time. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't affect people at all levels.

I suspect that post doc positions are harder to come by at every level. Being a bad-a** new PhD with 5 pubs all in Science or Nature doesn't in itself create a job. If the post doc position of your choice at Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne is already filled, you might hover in limbo for an extra month or two trying to find something else that suits you before you end up slumming it at Harvard.

 

[Silverfalcon]

But I'm a little confused by your last paragraph. You don't think it's harder to find a job, even though the number of people looking for a job is increasing? Surely when more people are looking for a job that isn't a sign that it's easier to find one, right? Quite the opposite, I think.

Here's a link to the article I mentioned. I don't remember everything it said (it's been a while), but still, a good read if you haven't come across it yet.
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/science/89/8905sci1.html

My point is that if you are a strong applicant (and I don't mean whole Nature/Science crap), you will still find a job as long as you are not being super picky. Just because there are more people with PhD seeking jobs doesn't mean that the job market is tough. I think that academia is tougher than before, but if you are going for industry, then you will be able to find one.

And plus, how often do you hear about stellar applicants (those who did well in grad school in terms of GPA, made a publication or two in timely manner, etc..) having tough times with job search? Not often. It's the increased number of less qualified applicants who make the market to be more difficult.

Now unless your whole point was about the less qualified applicants, then I agree with you. But I tend to believe that people at SDN are more than well-qualified, so hence my post.