Is it harder to get into a PhD program?

[868651]

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Is it more difficult to get into a PhD in Biochemestry or Genetics than an MD/DO/DDS/PharmD, etc?

 

[RunawayGrape]

Apples and oranges. There's also a huge range in competitiveness between MD/DO/DDS/PharmD.

 

[mk04447]

More like apples and a lone Turkish apricot.

 

[eteshoe]

The difficulty with PhD programs is getting out.

 

[Med Ed]

Is it more difficult to get into a PhD in Biochemestry or Genetics than an MD/DO/DDS/PharmD, etc?

It's actually more difficult to get into a 1968 MGB than a PhD program in biochemistry or genetics.

 

[DocAdams]

It's actually more difficult to get into a 1968 MGB than a PhD program in biochemistry or genetics.

Getting into MD programs is like trying to get into a XK-E.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

It's really funny that you mention this. At my undergrad I have noticed two different professors mention how disappointing it is that the highest caliber biology students opt for MD rather than PhD.

Also, the UCLA biology department gives automatic interviews to applicants above a certain GRE score.

So.... I would assume PhD programs are easier to get into.

 

[allantois]

MD/PhD 😉

 

[Lucca]

Depends on what you mean by “hard”. Getting into a PHD program is pretty easy. Getting into Physics at CalTech or Chemistry at MIT is comparably harder but not in the same way that getting into medical school is “hard”. If you have strong research experience and good letters and reasonable grades (bar is lower than MD) then you will get into a good PhD program.

Knowing people in the field is also way more important for PhD than for MD. If an MD writes you a good letter then I imagine it’s just another good letter. If one of 12 PIs working in some niche tells another PI “Take this student” then you won’t have issues joining their group.

In my personal experience the two cohorts have very different personalities and most premeds would hate to spend their entire working week in the lab while most PhD students can’t fathom the idea of working with sick people.

Porque no los dos 😉

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Porque no los dos 😉

Porque es muy difícil para recibir la admisión en una programa que ofrece ambos

 

[Mwooster]

Basic economics principle of supply vs demand

Many PhD programs are dime in a dozen. You can do a biology PhD in Middle of Nowhere U. PhD students are often glorified, subsidized indentured servants. However, like other posters have said, a PhD admission at name brand universities are slightly harder, but knowing the right PIs and people are a lot more powerful in nudging your chances than in the MD game.

For example, it is quite common for students who have around a 3.0 from good universities and with solid research background to get accepted into Hopkins School of Medicine's Biochem PhD program.

 

[FroYoOreo]

Take this student

This happens so often that picking the right PI is even more important than your grades.

 

[Lucca]

This happens so often that picking the right PI is even more important than your grades.

Trust me I know, it’s basiclally how I’ve obtained all but 1 of my research positions.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Trust me I know, it’s basiclally how I’ve obtained all but 1 of my research positions.

Connections and Networking. That's all what it's about sometimes.

 

[Goro]

Is it more difficult to get into a PhD in Biochemestry or Genetics than an MD/DO/DDS/PharmD, etc?

Good grad students are hard to find; hence it's buyer's market, unlike medical, where the seller has all the advantages.
Post-doc positions are also a buyer's market.
It's the faculty or industrial job that becomes the sellers market. So it's rather opposite from from Medicine.

 

[Deleted member 737595]

Porque es muy difícil para recibir la admisión en una programa que ofrece ambos

Stop. Just stop.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Stop. Just stop.

I'm not sure what triggered you

 

[Deleted member 737595]

I'm not sure what triggered you

The Spanish, obviously. That was just cringe-worthy. At least use proper grammer.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

The Spanish, obviously. That was just cringe-worthy. At least use proper grammer.

I reserve the American right to speak my broke Spanish.

 

[Stroganoff]

Humph. I go years without accidentally stumbling into Pre-Allo. Excuse me, Pre-Medical - MD (when did the name change?). And one would have to be insane to intentionally visit this part of the Interwebz. But this thread (and a few other threads re: overcoming adversity) have actually given me a little bit of hope that I didn't know I needed about my future. So thanks, SDN. Every now and then, there's a bolus of joy and strength I get from this place on top of the usual friendships and laughs.

I guess I wasn't aware that [some] PhD acceptances were somewhat a "buyer's market" or that good grad students were hard to find. I guess one would have to be a little bit crazy (I mean, dedicated!) to abandon a normal full-time job that pays well and live like a poor graduate student for the unknown certainty of finishing in 5ish years. I can see how that would make graduate programs less picky.

The networking and "who you know" angle is solid gold advice in industry -- it's how I've gotten my last several jobs, on top of developing good rapport and professional reputation over time. It doesn't surprise me that it works in graduate admissions either, but that definitely gives some hope. (I've also seen it work in med school admissions as well -- such as your mentor knowing the Dean and highly recommending you -- but it's still tough.)

Question: Does this hold true for the "techier" PhD programs like Biomedical Engineering/Bioengineering, Bioinformatics vs. the traditional BCPM/biochem sciences? I'm interested in applying some of my computer sciencey and IT background to human medicine disciplines and maybe BME if I can brush up on my math and physics. I just don't know how competitive those programs are vs. a generic biology PhD.

I haven't narrowed down my graduate interests enough -- nor am I looking to apply for any programs in the near term -- but was just curious. I am lucky/blessed enough to have worked with a colleague who is now a PI of his own lab, and it's really interesting neuro-imaging fMRI stuff, but the only hesitation I'm getting is that it's in a Psychology department vs. a harder natural science or engineering department. But the "who you know" thing holds very true: He was essentially posting a job listing on Facebook for fresh meat PhD students to apply, and he said "Yeah dude, go for it! It's easier to teach a programmer how to do some science than teach a typical science nerd how to program." (Is a Psych PhD what I want for a future career? I'm leaning towards "No.")




Sorry, I'm rambling. Best of luck, OP and to anyone who finds this thread who is juggling career and training interests. To any young whippersnappers out there who aren't sure, it's SUPER important to get exposure to both the clinical/medical field as well as the graduate/PhD/research fields and find out what really would make you happiest in the long term instead of simply going, "Meh, I guess I'll do the MD/DO thing even though my heart's not really in it." Don't set yourself up for decades of mediocrity! I've definitely run into my fair share of physicians who simply followed the path their parents wanted but can't wait to "get out of medicine."

 

[Lucca]

Humph. I go years without accidentally stumbling into Pre-Allo. Excuse me, Pre-Medical - MD (when did the name change?). And one would have to be insane to intentionally visit this part of the Interwebz. But this thread (and a few other threads re: overcoming adversity) have actually given me a little bit of hope that I didn't know I needed about my future. So thanks, SDN. Every now and then, there's a bolus of joy and strength I get from this place on top of the usual friendships and laughs.

I guess I wasn't aware that [some] PhD acceptances were somewhat a "buyer's market" or that good grad students were hard to find. I guess one would have to be a little bit crazy (I mean, dedicated!) to abandon a normal full-time job that pays well and live like a poor graduate student for the unknown certainty of finishing in 5ish years. I can see how that would make graduate programs less picky.

The networking and "who you know" angle is solid gold advice in industry -- it's how I've gotten my last several jobs, on top of developing good rapport and professional reputation over time. It doesn't surprise me that it works in graduate admissions either, but that definitely gives some hope. (I've also seen it work in med school admissions as well -- such as your mentor knowing the Dean and highly recommending you -- but it's still tough.)

Question: Does this hold true for the "techier" PhD programs like Biomedical Engineering/Bioengineering, Bioinformatics vs. the traditional BCPM/biochem sciences? I'm interested in applying some of my computer sciencey and IT background to human medicine disciplines and maybe BME if I can brush up on my math and physics. I just don't know how competitive those programs are vs. a generic biology PhD.

I haven't narrowed down my graduate interests enough -- nor am I looking to apply for any programs in the near term -- but was just curious. I am lucky/blessed enough to have worked with a colleague who is now a PI of his own lab, and it's really interesting neuro-imaging fMRI stuff, but the only hesitation I'm getting is that it's in a Psychology department vs. a harder natural science or engineering department. But the "who you know" thing holds very true: He was essentially posting a job listing on Facebook for fresh meat PhD students to apply, and he said "Yeah dude, go for it! It's easier to teach a programmer how to do some science than teach a typical science nerd how to program." (Is a Psych PhD what I want for a future career? I'm leaning towards "No.")




Sorry, I'm rambling. Best of luck, OP and to anyone who finds this thread who is juggling career and training interests. To any young whippersnappers out there who aren't sure, it's SUPER important to get exposure to both the clinical/medical field as well as the graduate/PhD/research fields and find out what really would make you happiest in the long term instead of simply going, "Meh, I guess I'll do the MD/DO thing even though my heart's not really in it." Don't set yourself up for decades of mediocrity! I've definitely run into my fair share of physicians who simply followed the path their parents wanted but can't wait to "get out of medicine."

PhD positions are easier to obtain because you need a large number of PhD students in order to actually do the nitty gritty work of science, especially in biology. Far fewer applicants / position than medicine. If science was as secure as medicine and paid just as well it would be just as competitivd. Engineering/Physical science PhDs tend to finish faster and have more non-academic options at the end than bio. Like other PhDs if you have the right background and know the right people you will have options.

Also I disagree about the programming thing. You can teach literally anyone how to code. A good scientist — someone plausibly on the trajectory to becoming a PI — is a very rare thing.

 

[Stroganoff]

Engineering/Physical science PhDs tend to finish faster and have more non-academic options at the end than bio. Like other PhDs if you have the right background and know the right people you will have options.

Cool, that's what I heard too re: finishing faster.

Also I disagree about the programming thing. You can teach literally anyone how to code. A good scientist — someone plausibly on the trajectory to becoming a PI — is a very rare thing.

I likely butchered his quote...it's been a few years and was going off memory. He might have said it's easier to teach a tech person how to do psych research than it is to teach a psych graduate how to tech. I dunno.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Pool]

The Spanish, obviously. That was just cringe-worthy. At least use proper grammer.

grammar*