is it inevitable that doctors incomes are going to drastically drop?

[da me ka don]

---

Members don't see this ad.

unless she doesn't work...

cue the "omg you are such a sexist" comments.

bite me.

I can live on 80,000... My parents TOGETHER don't make that much...

WORD!

 

[JaggerPlate]

I cannot imagine anything more frusterating than not being able to treat patinents and/or apply new treatments because their insurance company or HMO refuses to pay for it. What is the point of research if it can't be applied?

I understand this is a very complex issue... but believe the system is flawed and would take a ~15% paycut to have more freedom in treating my future patients.

You have a great attitude!! But try to remember all the work you have to go through to become a doctor ... a lot of people aren't going to have as pure of intentions as you do (myself a tad bit guilty ...). However, I don't think any of this is going to be a huge problem. As said before, big insurance companies aren't going to lay down bc Mr errr I mean Mrs Clinton wants to wave around some vagggue and unfished idea for health care for the election that is still over a year away.

 

[TheRealMD]

Your money away? Please. Deserve? LOL.

A relative of mine has a PhD in Physics - he didn't have it any easier and he gets paid a lot less than 80k. If he gets tenure, he will make about 70-100k, but thats a maybe after eight-ten years. He didn't have any grad school loans, but even accounting for that, all specialties in medicine still make more.

As a future doc, I'd love to make as much money as I possibly can, but really: get some perspective here.

We shouldn't expect to live like kings, however don't think that even with a $150k job or less, you'll be ok. I'm guessing you'll want a house, a car, insurance, and probably raise kids some day. All that stuff adds up.

 

[167649]

80k is just fine is we were normal people

Normal people? Ignorant statement. What do you think appending MD to your name makes you some kind of greek god? Nope. Some poor bastard who works in a coal mine sacrafices a lot too, sometimes his life. But he gets payed much less than that. And gets much less respect.

I do think physicians should be payed well, and trusted/respected by society, but I am not about to say that I am any better than all those "normal people (ants) down there."

 

[JaggerPlate]

Normal people? Ignorant statement. What do you think appending MD to your name makes you some kind of greek god? Nope. Some poor bastard who works in a coal mine sacrafices a lot too, sometimes his life. But he gets payed much less than that. And gets much less respect.

I do think physicians should be payed well, and trusted/respected by society, but I am not about to say that I am any better than all those "normal people (ants) down there."

That's why I'm going to med school ... if it doesn't, I'm out.



I am Jesus H Cox, MD ....

 

[limpkitty]

Your money away? Please. Deserve? LOL.

A relative of mine has a PhD in Physics - he didn't have it any easier and he gets paid a lot less than 80k. If he gets tenure, he will make about 70-100k, but thats a maybe after eight-ten years. He didn't have any grad school loans, but even accounting for that, all specialties in medicine still make more.

As a future doc, I'd love to make as much money as I possibly can, but really: get some perspective here.

Yeah, but he didn't have to shell out 150k for his degree. In fact he got paid for it.

 

[Doublecortin]

80k is just fine is we were normal people with normal jobs. But look what we have to go through. Look at this web site we're on. Do you think there is a student-real estate agent web site that people obsess over? We deserve more money and more respect. There has to be a better way to give everyone health care than to take our money away.

👍

 

[Doublecortin]

Your money away? Please. Deserve? LOL.

A relative of mine has a PhD in Physics - he didn't have it any easier and he gets paid a lot less than 80k. If he gets tenure, he will make about 70-100k, but thats a maybe after eight-ten years. He didn't have any grad school loans, but even accounting for that, all specialties in medicine still make more.

As a future doc, I'd love to make as much money as I possibly can, but really: get some perspective here.

👎

A relative of yours is an idealistic idiot

 

[group_theory]

good point, but on the flip side some doctors might prefer medicare or medicaid, because often times it can pay out more with less hassle. even in an outpatient setting, say you bump up that 99213 to a 99215 you're looking at a $150 rather than $50 with medicare. also it's easier to pull a fast one of the gov't versus private insurance companies. for example, doctors and companies that provide nursing care, electric wheel chairs, and medical supplies can easily work together to abuse medicare and medicaid. nursing companies provide doctors with a good supply of medicare clients as long as they make sure to once in a while prescribe nursing care and maybe an expensive wheel chair which is entirely covered my medicare. many doctors probably wouldnt even consider this immoral, since we are all trying to make a living right? should medicine be a business or is it a basic human right? with the amount of time and money doctors spend to get to where they are, they are highly motivated to make it a business. spend 10+ years of your life racking up hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to take the high road when it comes to making a judgment involving getting paid? doctors are good people, but no one is going to want to bust their butt and waste their youth for a poorly compensated profession, you better believe doctors will do what they have to in order to get paid, even if it means making a small moral compromise. and im sure there are many idealists out there who will disagree and say they will always do what is right, but i suggest that they wait until after med school and interning and then reconsider what they feel they deserve. medicine cannot be moral enterprise as long as the current medical education system is in place.

in addition with inpatient care medicare/medicaid is probably much preferred because you can be hospitalized for days to weeks with little restriction under one of the govt plans, but under an average private insurance company, there is no way you're staying there for days unless there is an extremely compelling reason.

I hope you're not suggesting that physicians should bill a level 3 visit as a level 5? Too many level 5 bills to CMS will certainly get their attention. Yes, you may be able to meet the documentation requirement of a level 5, but good luck supporting the medical complexity needed for a 99215. But i'm sure the government will be understanding if during a random audit they find that you have been overcoding visits

 

[Doublecortin]

Normal people? Ignorant statement. What do you think appending MD to your name makes you some kind of greek god? Nope. Some poor bastard who works in a coal mine sacrafices a lot too, sometimes his life. But he gets payed much less than that. And gets much less respect.

I do think physicians should be payed well, and trusted/respected by society, but I am not about to say that I am any better than all those "normal people (ants) down there."

It's not an issue of being better as a human being. It's an issue of getting out what you put in. Becoming a doctor requires a lot of dedication, perseverance, years of very hard intellectual labor, and VERY few people can finish this difficult journey. I mean, how hard is it to become a miner?

 

[Law2Doc]

'05 saw an average increase of 6% in physician salary, much is attributed to increases in patient volume.

Do you have a source for this? Most of the publications over the past year (eg a study referenced in last year's NYTimes, The New Physician, etc) have echoed the frequently reported 7% decline in average salary over the last decade. Patient volume has less to do with an increase in physician salary as you would think -- the bulk of patients these days are paid for by insurance reimbursements which have decreased over the years. Thus there have been quite a few articles describing the fact that some physicians, esp FPs, have had to increase their hours to increase the number of patients seen just to keep pace with last year's income. Thus increased patient volume means increased hours but not necessarilly increased pay, because doctors can't set the price. Physicians are still doing fine, but I don't think many people are stating that physician salaries as a whole are increasing currently. However if you have a resource, please cite it. Thanks.

 

[barto123]

I hope you're not suggesting that physicians should bill a level 3 visit as a level 5? Too many level 5 bills to CMS will certainly get their attention. Yes, you may be able to meet the documentation requirement of a level 5, but good luck supporting the medical complexity needed for a 99215. But i'm sure the government will be understanding if during a random audit they find that you have been overcoding visits

although im not exactly sure what qualifies as a 99215, im pretty sure there is not that much medical complexity. i know doctors that have been pretty liberal with the level 5's some have gotten away with it, others have been audited and caught and have paid dearly. so im not suggesting that they should put level 5 for 3, but they might make more money if they put in more effort and legitimately bumped it up to a 5.

 

[group_theory]

although im not exactly sure what qualifies as a 99215, im pretty sure there is not that much medical complexity.

Well, I guess if you're going to defraud the government based on "I'm pretty sure", then go for it.

A level 5 visit is taking care of the patient with requires "high-complexity medical decision making". Although you may meet documentation requirements for a 99215 visit, the medical-necessity and complexity is the overarching theme and CMS and various HMO auditors (at the behest of CMS) have been auditing physicians who bill at a higher rates of Level 4 and Level 5 when compare to their peers.

In reality, a level 5 outpatient office visit is quite rare. According to the ACP, only 4% of all visits by Internists are coded as a 99215, compare to 52% for a 99213 and 21% for a 99214. The breakdown between FP and General Internists gets interesting and is way beyond the scope of this discussion ... but suffice to say, if you are billing more higher codes than your peers, you will get the attention of auditors from both insurance companies and from the state and federal government.


Basically if you want to increase office revenue, don't do it by upcoding. You will attract attention (and thanks to the federal whistleblower law, there are financial incentives for someone to rat you out to the government).

The basic way to enhance revenue is to not undercode, and to properly code and bill for stuff that you are doing (counseling sessions, proper use of an inhaler with spacer, etc)

 

[jochi1543]

It's not an issue of being better as a human being. It's an issue of getting out what you put in. Becoming a doctor requires a lot of dedication, perseverance, years of very hard intellectual labor, and VERY few people can finish this difficult journey. I mean, how hard is it to become a miner?

It might not be hard to become a miner, but man, it's hard to be one! I think many "intellectual" types could benefit from spending a few days doing hard physical labor. Working on the assembly line at a dirt plant was the most challenging thing I've ever done, and I don't mean just physically challenging.

 

[dakims]

well what are the current salaries? i thought 120k was about average for non-specialties?

 

[ronaldo23]

no, i think the average now is around 150-160

 

[Law2Doc]

well what are the current salaries? i thought 120k was about average for non-specialties?

What's a nonspecialty? These days there are really just competitive specialties and noncompetitive specialties. The average for certain less competitive specialties is certainly in the 120k-140k range, with averages for competitive specialties higher, but bear in mind that many people aren't making the average, so you really shouldn't be counting on a particular salary till you get there. Not to mention that if you are a premed, things can change in the decade (and multiple presidential elections) it will take you to get to many specialties.

 

[Gut Shot]

maybe I am missing something but how is it that people assume that because MORE people have insurance doctors will make less? doesn't MORE insurance mean MORE visits to the doctor per year?

Thank you. I've literally been waiting for months to see someone connect the dots.

 

[45408]

that type of salary is enough to live more than comfortably. also, if you get married you can add your spouse's income

Comfortably, in that you can pay your rent, but it's hilarious at how you guys think it's so much money sometimes.

 

[wanabdoc]

to the 80-120K region, with hilary clintons impending plans, and even without that, universal health care seems like its coming.

Where do people come up with these numbers? Out of that dark place where most people keep sticks? For years people have been predicting the fall of physician salaries, check out this article from one of the schools I applied too, it was published in CMDA magazine in 1989, although it is primarily religious, the last few paragraphs predict that physicians' salaries will go to he**.

Here is what has really happened to physician salaries since 1982, I researched this at my local library and have provided the sources.


Physician salary trends

 

[badasshairday]

I don't know why some of us think $ is bad or somthing. It is not wrong to expect a high salary at all. Too much of this idealism "i'll practice medicine for food," is what makes physician's and their lobby groups impotent.

The aliens are coming... I'm sure a lot of premeds don't know about the repeal of the 20/220 in which residents are going to have to shell out a lot of dough because they can't defer there loans anymore. It's already hard enough to live on that resident salary.

And don't forget the ever decreasing reimbursements for practicing physicians.

Asking for money isn't really all bad, look at nurses. Everybody is looking out for there $; the hospitals, insurance companies, nurses are all looking out for there $. On the other hand, nobody is looking out for the salaries of physicians, not even physicians themselves. The aliens are here.

 

[Perrotfish]

to the 80-120K region, with hilary clintons impending plans, and even without that, universal health care seems like its coming.

Is there even the slightest chance you've read Hiliary's health care plan? Or the health care plan from any other major candidate? The only candidate who is proposing Canadian style universal health care, or anything close to it, is David Kusinich. Everyone else just wants to expand government subsidies for the same broken insurance system we have right now.

That being said if you're really that worried about it do what I'm doing and join the military. I'm not expecting it, but if we're on universal health care when I finish my residency in 2016 I'm going to laugh my debt free ass off.

 

[nonesuchgirl]

Yay for unfounded generalizations and vague analysis! 👍

It's pre-allo, what else?

I don't think so, but if that perception means less people apply to medical schools - all the better for me.

👍

"AMG! Medicine is going to collapse and I won't be able to survive on my pay!"

Calm down people. I thought economics was a mandatory part of the university level curriculum.

Nope. Only if your major requires it.

Comfortably, in that you can pay your rent, but it's hilarious at how you guys think it's so much money sometimes.

Ah, youth...

 

[johankriek]

Respect is all that matters to me.

ha ha ha.. you are not gonna get that.. sorry look elsewhwere..

 

[johankriek]

Your money away? Please. Deserve? LOL.

A relative of mine has a PhD in Physics - he didn't have it any easier and he gets paid a lot less than 80k. If he gets tenure, he will make about 70-100k, but thats a maybe after eight-ten years. He didn't have any grad school loans, but even accounting for that, all specialties in medicine still make more.

As a future doc, I'd love to make as much money as I possibly can, but really: get some perspective here.

the problems with some of these threads is that you have many different perspectives.. Here above you have a premedical student who prolly hasnt finished college yet, saying that physicians should work for 80k because physics phd's make 80k and they went to school for just as long. and he really believes it. Ill tell you what, stay in the hospital 60-70 times a year overnight in a hospital room getting paged all night doing cases and attending to critically ill patients. The system expects perfection, expects you NOt to be tired or make any mistakes. Do that for a little bit for 80k a year and come back and tell me I should make 80K per year. Tell me I should be away from my loving wife and kids 80 nites a year for 80k. Does that physics phd do that? Does that physics phd set his alarm clock for 430 am each morning to make it to the hospital on time? sickness wont be tolerated? having a bad day wont be tolerated. You are allowed to post your opinions. But your opinion stinks like your butt hole.

 

[johankriek]

physicians control the market though... Without doctors what good is insurance? Its not very likely, at least as far as I see it, that doctor salaries are going to take a huge cut, and if I make less and the govt is willing to subsidize some or all of my malpractice insurance, then I'm game. People shouldn't go into medicine for money anyways... there are MUCH better fields for that nonsense.

another naive pre med.. Holy cow. Physicians absolutely DO not control the market. insurance companies and big business and big pharma control control doctors. good your game.. thats great. People shouldnt go into medicine for the money. I didnt go into it for the money, but i sure the hell woke up when i saw what was going on.

 

[coldweatherblue]

I think it's silly for anyone to go into medicine with the expectation of untold riches and complete financial freedom. I want to be able to practice medicine because I think it will be a good career that offers personal fulfillment and steady employment. It is the only job that I think I will be satisfied and happy performing every day for the next 35 years.

BUT with the amount of debt I will incur upon graduation, I must be compensated enough to live comfortably and take care of my financial obligations. I think that physicians ARE well compensated (obviously) but the minute you decide that it's "okay" for someone else (insurance, government, whoever) to take your money, before you know it they will screw you as much as possible. You have to fight for what you've earned and what you deserve; the same as anything in life.

I agree that there are good points to socialized health-care, but in terms of reducing physician salaries to subsidize it or whatever, I have to ask; do I trust the government to make better use of my money than myself? And the answer to that is a resounding "No!".

 

[notdeadyet]

to the 80-120K region, with hilary clintons impending plans, and even without that, universal health care seems like its coming.

I do find it funny that premeds always freak out about hilary clinton and her health plans, but she always manages to get the highest percentage of campaign donations from physicians.

 

[johankriek]

Asking for money isn't really all bad, look at nurses. Everybody is looking out for there $; the hospitals, insurance companies, nurses are all looking out for there $. On the other hand, nobody is looking out for the salaries of physicians, not even physicians themselves. The aliens are here.

very true. You have wisdom beyond your years. Nurses (the most noble profession so they say) are all unionized. If they are not happy.. they strike and their demands get met.. period. how are physicians different?

 

[Jolie South]

very true. You have wisdom beyond your years. Nurses (the most noble profession so they say) are all unionized. If they are not happy.. they strike and their demands get met.. period. how are physicians different?

every other profession in the free world has their own union. i mean look at the writers' strike.

members of a profession should band together if they think that they are being cheated or shortchanged in their pay in any way. everyone has a right to speak out, except maybe the whiny NFL players that demand 100 million more because the 50 million they are already making is paltry. 🙂

 

[banana5]

My $0.02:

Granted there are people who think $80k is a lot of money to live on, and there are probably people who would take out the loans and go into medicine even if they knew that they were going to make $50k, but I think the reality is that most people are not like this.

I'm going into medicine because I think it'll be a fun and rewarding thing to do. That doesn't mean that I don't notice that kids who go into banking get $10k/summer internships and are paid ~$100k after 4 years of college. Don't like banking? Be a lawyer. 3 years of cheap(er) graduate school and you come out making >$150k after bonuses. Read the recent NY Times article "For Lawyers, Perks to Fit a Lifestyle."

The reason I'm still going into medicine is that I think that the satisfaction I'll get from my career is more important than difference X between my salary and my friend's at Goldman Sachs. If that difference X were to increase enough, I (or anyone else) wouldn't go into medicine. Simple as that. The positive vibes or whatever from getting to hold a scalpel or deliver babies or whatever it is you want to do are only worth so much.

I'm sure that most of you who have thought about this type of stuff will agree with me. Lower the salaries enough, and you'll drive a bunch of potentially good doctors to other careers. But if push came to shove, could you really see a politician saying something like that to the public? It would seem like political suicide for anyone to go out there and say that the doctors can't be paid less, particularly while millions are uninsured. Essentially, I don't really see what's protecting doctors high salaries in the long term.

 

[Perrotfish]

They tried forming a physician's union a while ago. The probelm with a union is that a good chunk of physicians are self employed. It's hard to strike for higher wages when you own your own buisness.

Again, though, I'm serious about the military thing. I've had this conversation about how physician's salaries will 'inevitably' go down with about a dozen premeds and med students. They always make sure to bring up how unfair the situation is considering the massive debt load they're going to incur. As soon as a suggest the military thing they look at me like I have a dick growing out of my forehead. This suggests to me they don't really, deep down, believe what they're compaining about, but rather that they want an excuse to complain.

 

[nonesuchgirl]

They tried forming a physician's union a while ago. The probelm with a union is that a good chunk of physicians are self employed. It's hard to strike for higher wages when you own your own buisness.

Again, though, I'm serious about the military thing. I've had this conversation about how physician's salaries will 'inevitably' go down with about a dozen premeds and med students. They always make sure to bring up how unfair the situation is considering the massive debt load they're going to incur. As soon as a suggest the military thing they look at me like I have a dick growing out of my forehead. This suggests to me they don't really, deep down, believe what they're compaining about, but rather that they want an excuse to complain.

Other people in the military programmes or who've considered them say that the $ trade isn't worth it.

 

[Jolie South]

My $0.02:

I'm going into medicine because I think it'll be a fun and rewarding thing to do. That doesn't mean that I don't notice that kids who go into banking get $10k/summer internships and are paid ~$100k after 4 years of college. Don't like banking? Be a lawyer. 3 years of cheap(er) graduate school and you come out making >$150k after bonuses. Read the recent NY Times article "For Lawyers, Perks to Fit a Lifestyle."

The reason I'm still going into medicine is that I think that the satisfaction I'll get from my career is more important than difference X between my salary and my friend's at Goldman Sachs. If that difference X were to increase enough, I (or anyone else) wouldn't go into medicine. Simple as that. The positive vibes or whatever from getting to hold a scalpel or deliver babies or whatever it is you want to do are only worth so much.

I would be lying if I said that money never factored into my decision to enter into medicine. yes, i'm about helping people. yes, i'm going into a career that will challenge me and is tailored to my particular interests. I absolutely cannot imagine doing anything else. However, I realized that medicine would be a career that would more than provide for my future family, and that was a big draw as well.

at the same time though, how much crap do we have to go through to get there? i want to be well compensated for the effort that i made to be the best physician possible. i'm not talking millions here, but come on we need to pay back loans and have a way to recover from the years of negative income.

 

[mbe36]

As long as I can pay off my bills and provide my kids with a great education, I will be a happy man.

 

[Jolie South]

They tried forming a physician's union a while ago. The probelm with a union is that a good chunk of physicians are self employed. It's hard to strike for higher wages when you own your own buisness.

Physicians would strike for insurance reform because the insurance companies are the ones who pay us, like it or not. In my humble opinion. . .

 

[scrubswannabe]

researchers have really imporntat jobs - they dont usualy get rich
we still have great research being done

why wouldnt that be the case with doctors - i say if salaries go down - sure some kids will opt to not be drs and go for something that pays more - but we're gonna have ppl that really want to be drs become drs and im sure after all the training theyl be very competent doctors

and lets say salaries do decrease and less people decide they want to go into medicine,
medical school costs will go down or salaries wil go up to provide the country with the health care it needs

theres too much talk on here about doctors salaries i think
i used to care a lot but I think I learned to chill out

and 80-120k is still great money...

 

[StealthNerd]

the problems with some of these threads is that you have many different perspectives.. Here above you have a premedical student who prolly hasnt finished college yet, saying that physicians should work for 80k because physics phd's make 80k and they went to school for just as long. and he really believes it. Ill tell you what, stay in the hospital 60-70 times a year overnight in a hospital room getting paged all night doing cases and attending to critically ill patients. The system expects perfection, expects you NOt to be tired or make any mistakes. Do that for a little bit for 80k a year and come back and tell me I should make 80K per year. Tell me I should be away from my loving wife and kids 80 nites a year for 80k. Does that physics phd do that? Does that physics phd set his alarm clock for 430 am each morning to make it to the hospital on time? sickness wont be tolerated? having a bad day wont be tolerated. You are allowed to post your opinions. But your opinion stinks like your butt hole.

wow. ... i hate how he says it but i have to agree with johan here. same goes for all you guys saying "$80k is enough to live more than comfortably"... ya'll need to wait until you have a $3K a month mortgage. throw on utilities, food, etc, and $80k runs out QUICK. not to mention kids (thank God we don't have any yet). ... the point here is that yes, it's a bad idea to be an MD for the $$ cause you can make more elsewhere. but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be rewarded for your sacrifices.

 

[batman1983]

Trust me, no doctor working fulltime will make $85K/yr unless they choose to. As long as medical education costs $150-200K, doctors will not make $85k. If they ever make $85k, they will probably get some kind of benefit like free education or no taxes.

There is already a shortage of doctors (even though that mostly due to the AAMC and the quotas they have for medical students). If salaries went down to $85K, there will be a huge drop in med applicants. In addition, since the US healthcare system already gets a large number of doctors from abroad(mostly India), and with their economies rising, it would be hard to entice them to come to the US at $85K(especially considering in the US, that's not that much depending on the area in the US that you are living in).

With the current trends that are occurring in medicine, general physician salaries have actually been increasing with the emergence of HMOs and I would assume it to continue in a universal healthcare setting as well, since they would continue to be the first point of contact. Its specialist doctors that are getting hit the most due to HMO's reluctances to use them, as well as the increasing costs of malpractice insurance that mostly affects them. In a universal healthcare setting, specialists might actually make more if malpractice insurance and litigation issues are addressed.

 

[Perrotfish]

Other people in the military programmes or who've considered them say that the $ trade isn't worth it.

I don't disagree. Unless you do a low paying specialty such as IM or FP, military medicine is at best a financially neutral decision. However that's assuming pay scales stay about what they are now. If you really, honestly believed that we were going to be in a socialized health care system in ten years, making 80K a year with no debt relief, in that case the military is a 500K windfall.

My point was that when people who whine about the inevitabilty of low physician saleries are confronted with a logical choice for a world of socialized health care they run in the opposite direction. That suggests to me they don't actually believe there's going to be socialized health care, because their actions speak louder than their words.

 

[StealthNerd]

My $0.02:

Granted there are people who think $80k is a lot of money to live on, and there are probably people who would take out the loans and go into medicine even if they knew that they were going to make $50k, but I think the reality is that most people are not like this.

I'm going into medicine because I think it'll be a fun and rewarding thing to do. That doesn't mean that I don't notice that kids who go into banking get $10k/summer internships and are paid ~$100k after 4 years of college. Don't like banking? Be a lawyer. 3 years of cheap(er) graduate school and you come out making >$150k after bonuses. Read the recent NY Times article "For Lawyers, Perks to Fit a Lifestyle."

The reason I'm still going into medicine is that I think that the satisfaction I'll get from my career is more important than difference X between my salary and my friend's at Goldman Sachs. If that difference X were to increase enough, I (or anyone else) wouldn't go into medicine. Simple as that. The positive vibes or whatever from getting to hold a scalpel or deliver babies or whatever it is you want to do are only worth so much.

I'm sure that most of you who have thought about this type of stuff will agree with me. Lower the salaries enough, and you'll drive a bunch of potentially good doctors to other careers. But if push came to shove, could you really see a politician saying something like that to the public? It would seem like political suicide for anyone to go out there and say that the doctors can't be paid less, particularly while millions are uninsured. Essentially, I don't really see what's protecting doctors high salaries in the long term.

exactly correct. i did the math, and my opportunity cost for going to med school (assuming a 5 to 6 year residency) is going to run me, NOT COUNTING time value of $/investing... about $1M. That's with six zeros. ... but i'm going to do it because i'm convinced it will allow me to have a rewarding job where i can fully utilize my abilities. so i'm buying that for about $1M. ... if that number where to increase dramatically i wouldn't do it. I'd keep up my night classes and become a "doctor" without the paperwork.

o, and for those of you looking at the military option: i don't recommend it. i actually left the military to do this. trust me on that one. bad idea; not worth it.

 

[ufgrad00]

I have a question about private practices in Canada or Govt. Single Payer plans.

I am currently working a corporate/clinical job for a very large private oncology practice. The practice employs over 30 oncologists at six different locations and employs about 150 staff members (nurses/MA's, techs, IT, etc.). From what I am hearing about salaries with Canada or a Government single payer plan, would all the employees be supported by the salaries of the doctors? Or would the private practice have to become government controlled and the employees become government employees?

I guess what I am asking about private practices is, in Canada, do the salaries of the employees along with business overhead, come from the salaries of the doctors? Say you get a 120K salary by the Canadian goverment for a family practice in a rural location, but to run your practice you require many tens of thousands a year in overhead and staff wages. So in your practice in Canada, do you really only make (Your Salary) minus (overhead)?

I really know very little about practice in Canada, and I am curious. Sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

[Jolie South]

My point was that when people who whine about the inevitabilty of low physician saleries are confronted with a logical choice for a world of socialized health care they run in the opposite direction. That suggests to me they don't actually believe there's going to be socialized health care, because their actions speak louder than their words.

What proof is there that socialized medicine is a viable option for our healthcare system?

1) We're not socialist. Enacting an unwieldy social welfare bureaucracy is not going to go over to well with voters, especially Republicans. I think talking about anything "socialized" and that big and unknown won't gain easy passage.

2) Money. It would be much less costly to fix our existing system by helping the portion of the population that's uninsured or underinsured and proposing insurance reform.

These are just my thoughts though. I'm no expert. 🙂

 

[Kthanksbye]

Don't really care as long as I can pay my loans back. Nobody ever talks about the part of the hippocratic oath where doctors pledge to provide medical education for free.

Declines in salary are likely inevitable, but any references to Hilary's health plan are way too premature. She was the supposed health plan guru under her husband and was able to be quieted with some dead presidents. Evidence that any president will successfully guarantee universal health coverage (or even make any significant change) is lacking.

The effectors that I see are rising personal health insurance costs (the parts not covered by employers) and doctors running away from some specialties because they can't afford the malpractice coverage. As people continute to drop out of the health care plans offered on the job because they'd rather gamble and keep their money in their pockets, diseases that could have been prevented will dominate the population.

Nonetheless, to answer the OP, insurance reimbursements are on the decline. You can always do what this guy does...

http://potw.news.yahoo.com/s/potw/54996/the-real-life-web-md

This guy gives "unlimited care" to people for a yearly fee. Sounds great, except he makes sure that his patient base doesn't include people who are going to have any chronic or costly problems. He only takes people between the ages of 18 and 39. If every doctor cherry picked their patients like that, who would treat the patients who are actually sick?

 

[Begaster]

The Pay Scale site is very, very wrong in regards to Canadian salaries.

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/staticContent/HTML/N0/l2/MedStudentCentre/Medicine/income.pdf

Mind you, this is from six years ago. Since then, the average salary for doctors has increased faster than the inflation.

 

[badasshairday]

The Pay Scale site is very, very wrong in regards to Canadian salaries.

http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/staticContent/HTML/N0/l2/MedStudentCentre/Medicine/income.pdf

Mind you, this is from six years ago. Since then, the average salary for doctors has increased faster than the inflation.

Gross payment doens't mean squat. Overhead + taxes wipes out a lot!

 

[u2doc]

Hmm...the Canadian figures seem a bit odd. My family physician clears at least $300 000 net every year (she works 9 hours a day). A paediatrician I happen to know makes at least $400 000. I even read an article in the newspaper a few months ago about how the percentage of doctors in Ontario who make more than $550 000 was rising, mostly due to patient volume. And let's not forget that the Canadian loonie is worth more than the American buck now😀

 

[AsclepiusI]

Doctors in Europe who practice socialized medicine seem to be getting along fine.

Practicing medicine doesn't mean you are entitled to be rich, mmmm'kay?

 

[Begaster]

Gross payment doens't mean squat. Overhead + taxes wipes out a lot!

Yes, they do. But overhead and taxes aren't something only Canadians pay. We pay more taxes, less insurance, similar overhead, I imagine. That being said, after it's all said and done, you'll still make very good money up here. Well above the nonsense the Payscale site was reporting (since it was reporting gross pay, from what I understood of it).

 

[bournemdstudent]

Don't really care as long as I can pay my loans back. Nobody ever talks about the part of the hippocratic oath where doctors pledge to provide medical education for free.

Huh? The hippocratic oath required that doctors (or iatrio) provode medical education, but for a fee paid by the student.

Medical education has a long tradition of being very expensive. In the middle ages, students would have to pay a great deal for schooling. Then, when they graduated, it was customary for the student to provide a feast for the faculty and give each of them nice gifts.

In Paris, during the 17 and 18th centuries, the only payments that residents received was free room and board in the hospitals. That's why they were called residents, they were literally RESIDENT in the hospitals they worked at. Interns didn't even get to live in the hospitals, they had to work for food.

Sorry for the history lesson, but finally my history of medicine courses have come in handy!