Is it possible for a DO to get a plastics spot?

[daelroy]

Wrong my friends. If you look at the % of MD vs. DO who match to prs it is about 94% MD and about 6% DO. Now, let us look at the number of current MD students vs the number of current DO students nationally. That is about 93% MD vs 7% DO (by number). Following me here. If you are a DO and you want an prs spot you must do the following:

1. Do 3-4 prs elective audition rotation at spots you want to go.
2. Do well in surgery and medicine rotations.
3. Be likable.
4. Score above a 235-240 in USMLE step I.

Go gettem.

NF

This information is patently false. It is inaccurate in so many ways, I don't know where to begin. There are only two osteopathic PRS fellowships in the country. And in the past, usually one one or none DO's match into allopathic PRS. I don't know where this 6% comes from but it is wrong.

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[kmnfive]

i know this is gonna sound like a dumb question that has been answered over and over again... but bear with me here... what does IMG and FMG stand for?

 

[Seaglass]

IMG usually refers to a US citizen who went to medical school abroad, FMG refers to a non-US citizen who went to medical school abroad.

 

[GSresident]

The answer to this question is yes. It is possible for a DO to get both a combined plastics spot and a post general surgery fellowship. It would be more difficult but it is possible. The same holds true for IMG's and FMG's. Every year a few IMG/FMG people get post general surgery plastics fellowships and I have known of a few who even got combined spots. Believe in yourself. Only you know what you are capable of. Good luck.

 

[NRAI2001]

The answer to this question is yes. It is possible for a DO to get both a combined plastics spot and a post general surgery fellowship. It would be more difficult but it is possible. The same holds true for IMG's and FMG's. Every year a few IMG/FMG people get post general surgery plastics fellowships and I have known of a few who even got combined spots. Believe in yourself. Only you know what you are capable of. Good luck.

http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/spcstsc/0,1238,360,00.html

So when this site says that only 5.8% of spots went to IMG are they refering to citizens of other countries or are they refering to US citizens that went out of the country to do residency?

How difficult is it for a US citizen who went to a carribean or other off shore school to get a spot? Would this person have an easier time doing a general surgery residency then getting a plastics fellowship?

 

[NRAI2001]

I am asking this question bc I am a senior at Cal Berkeley right now and I was planning to apply to med schools at the end of this school year, meaning that i would have a year off. I know a few friends who didn't want to take a year off and are going to the carribean next year. Its hard to see them go off to med school while i have no idea of where i will be going or even if I will get into a US med school. I have really been considering this lately and my parents are really pushing me not to take a year off. I REALLY REALLY want to do plastic surgery and I was wondering how difficult would it be for me if i were to go to a carribean school (ST. Georges in grenada) to get A) an integrated spot and B) after doing a general surgery residency to get a plastics fellowship?

 

[GSresident]

It would be very very difficult to get a plastics spot from one of the car. med schools. That applies to both combined and fellowship stuff. It would be harder to get general surgery from there as well. It wouldn't be impossible but it would be hard. If I were in your same spot I would do a year of research in the year off, or do something really wild like join the peace corps. I have nothing against people who go to those schools. I have had the opportunity to work with some of those students who come up and rotate through the VA. Without a doubt they are some of the most motivated students I have seen. Unfortunately it is much more difficult path.

 

[Deuce 007 MD]

http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/spcstsc/0,1238,360,00.html

So when this site says that only 5.8% of spots went to IMG are they refering to citizens of other countries or are they refering to US citizens that went out of the country to do residency?

I think they are refering to citizens of other countries who have most likely practiced for years in their native country and have come to the U.S. so have had to retrain. My example is my father who practiced in vietnam as a trauma surgeon during the war for about 10 years so when we came to the u.s. he had to do his res over again. But having already practiced for years he was able to shine enough to get a plastics fellowship. Now he is an attending and tells me his program doesn't take u.s. citizens who got their md of shore, but they have taken these "super IMGs" who have already practiced for years in their homeland. Hope that helps.

 

[NRAI2001]

I think they are refering to citizens of other countries who have most likely practiced for years in their native country and have come to the U.S. so have had to retrain. My example is my father who practiced in vietnam as a trauma surgeon during the war for about 10 years so when we came to the u.s. he had to do his res over again. But having already practiced for years he was able to shine enough to get a plastics fellowship. Now he is an attending and tells me his program doesn't take u.s. citizens who got their md of shore, but they have taken these "super IMGs" who have already practiced for years in their homeland. Hope that helps.

O i see.

 

[Winged Scapula]

On the FREIDA databases, the term "IMG" refers to ALL applicants who have graduated from medical school outside of the US and Canada. This would include US citizens, foreign nationals, etc. They do not use the more typical distinction between IMG and FMG (as we do here).

 

[lovestocut]

I disagree. I believe you must be better than your MD counterparts. You must have better scores on the USMLE, you must do research, and you must develop alliances. Northern programs are DO friendly, whereas Southern states are still stuck in the past. Opinions like this are traditionally learned and unforrtunate. It is much more difficult, but certainly not impossible.

 

[ryanjones247]

Maybe cosmetic surgery wouldn't be a bad way to go. Can they do cleft pallots and all that jazz?

 

[DrDre']

What is a pallot? I don't remember that from anatomy- it HAS been a long time though...

 

[OnMyWayThere]

What are you giving up by not going through a board certified fellowship? Will your malpractice insurance cost more? Will they not cover you at all?

What is the difference, not in training, but in rights???

As far as malpractice insurance, billing insurance companies, and what surgical procedures we can do if a DO does not do board certified fellowship or whatever the "other" route is?

THANK YOU!

 

[GSresident]

What are you giving up by not going through a board certified fellowship? Will your malpractice insurance cost more? Will they not cover you at all?

What is the difference, not in training, but in rights???

As far as malpractice insurance, billing insurance companies, and what surgical procedures we can do if a DO does not do board certified fellowship or whatever the "other" route is?

THANK YOU!

Honestly I don't know what would be the difference in malpractice insurance if you did a cosmetic fellowship or a weekend warrior course as opposed to doing a plastic and reconstructive surgery residency/fellowship. I think it would really depend on where you were living. I think the issue would be more getting privaleges to do these procedures at hospitals and surgicenters, but I am sure you could find some place to do just about anything. Businessmen and the general public don't really understand the fine points of board certification etc a lot of the time. Do you at least have some surgical training like general surgery? I know that some family practice guys are now calling themselves cosmetic surgeons. I know a lot of dermatologists call themselves cosmetic surgeons. Obviously I am seriously biased but I don't think I would want to be in the position of having no real surgical training and calling myself a surgeon. Likewise I wouldn't want to have no real training in cardiology and call myself a cardiologist. Why not go through dental school and call yourself a gastroenterologist? If thats acceptable why not just forgo medical training alltogether, get an associates degree from a junior college, and call yourself a neurosurgeon?

I think you should at least try to apply for plastic and reconstructive surgery fellowships. If you have a strong application you should be able to match. I honestly don't see what the problem is. If you don't match then I would pursue other avenues. It seems like you are passionate about wanting to become a plastic surgeon, and that is what counts. If you keep at it, you will end up doing what you want. Don't listen to some of these yahoos that say it is impossible.

 

[Soon2BDrJones]

Does the military look down on DO's who are looking to enter competitive residency spots?

 

[NRAI2001]

Who are looked upon more favorably DO's or IMG's, when trying to match into plastics?

Would being a DO or IMG matter if one was proceeding through the traditional route (gen surg to plastics fellow)?

From what I hear about other residencies is that DOs and IMG are at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to getting residencies in general, but when it comes to fellowships, they are at almost the same positions as are US MDs. Is this true for plastics also?

 

[mcindoe]

I don't know the answer to your question, but have you ever heard of a plastic surgeon with the letters "D.O." after his/her name?

I do, however, know of several residents and attendings who were IMGs. Harvard's program director is an IMG, and so is the chief of plastics at the Brigham. Baylor's former PD is an IMG, and there are others as well.

 

[Cowboy DO]

I don't know the answer to your question, but have you ever heard of a plastic surgeon with the letters "D.O." after his/her name?

yes.

 

[DrMom]

I don't know the answer to your question, but have you ever heard of a plastic surgeon with the letters "D.O." after his/her name?

There are 2 at my school's affiliated hospital.

 

[navysurgeon]

Pribaz is an IMG?!

There are 'IMGs' and then there are 'IMGs' if you know what I mean.

I think Pribaz fits in the latter category. BTW, did you read Harvard's brochure on their plastics dept...it was started by an IMG from Eastern Europe, or Lebanon, or somewhere...anyway, the guy was a stud. But that was back in the day. One of the senior PRS residents at Harvard was an IMG, but he was a badass...not really an 'IMG', if you know what I mean...

TNS

 

[NRAI2001]

There are 2 at my school's affiliated hospital.

Are most DO's that get plastics spots getting them at DO residencies or at MD residencies?

I know that DO's have their own plastics residencies, but how many of them are there through out the US? Are they residency programs are fellowships?

 

[NRAI2001]

I know that getting an integrated spot is hard for everyone, even more so far DO's and IMG's.

I am more specifically speaking of the plastics fellowships completed after a general surgery residency. From what one person told (don't know if they are right or wrong) it is easy to go that route if you are an IMG and almost next to impossible to get a integrated spot as an IMG. Does something similar hold for DO's (assuming that this person is right)? Once youve completed a general surgery residency, does being a DO hinder you much?

 

[mcindoe]

Pribaz is an IMG?!

There are 'IMGs' and then there are 'IMGs' if you know what I mean.

I think Pribaz fits in the latter category. BTW, did you read Harvard's brochure on their plastics dept...it was started by an IMG from Eastern Europe, or Lebanon, or somewhere...anyway, the guy was a stud. But that was back in the day. One of the senior PRS residents at Harvard was an IMG, but he was a badass...not really an 'IMG', if you know what I mean...

TNS

Is this meant to be "tongue-in-cheek" like your other post?

 

[maxheadroom]

1. Pribaz is an Australian national. When he trained, it was fairly common for internationals to train in the U.S. Shenaq is Egyptian. Both of these gentlemen are extremely accomplished surgeons and academicians, not just some American kid who couldn't get into his state medical school.

2. Anybody with an non-U.S. MD degree is going to have an extremely difficult time matching in plastics. Period. Traditional, combined, or integrated. It's become one of the most sought after fields and will continue to be very popular.

3. There doesn't seem to be much info out there about osteopathic plastics training. I suspect it's quite competitive, too.

 

[NRAI2001]

1. Pribaz is an Australian national. When he trained, it was fairly common for internationals to train in the U.S. Shenaq is Egyptian. Both of these gentlemen are extremely accomplished surgeons and academicians, not just some American kid who couldn't get into his state medical school.

2. Anybody with an non-U.S. MD degree is going to have an extremely difficult time matching in plastics. Period. Traditional, combined, or integrated. It's become one of the most sought after fields and will continue to be very popular.

3. There doesn't seem to be much info out there about osteopathic plastics training. I suspect it's quite competitive, too.

Does anyone know how many osteo plastics spots there roughly are? WHere they re located?

Any links or sites that might better inform us?

 

[Gibby Haynes]

Does anyone know how many osteo plastics spots there roughly are? WHere they re located?

Any links or sites that might better inform us?

There are only 2 programs that I know of and one is at South Pointe in Cleveland and the other is at PCOM. PCOM takes about 3 a year. They have some good info about their program.

www.pcom.edu/Graduate_Medical_Education/Residency_Programs/Res-Plastic_Surgery/res-plastic_surgery.html

I think South Pointe takes 1 a year, but not sure.

www.southpointegme.com/frames_pages/default.cfm?right=../program_offerings/program.cfm

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

Does anyone know how many osteo plastics spots there roughly are? WHere they re located?

Any links or sites that might better inform us?

There are TWO osteopathic plastic fellowships and ZERO integrated/combined.
South Pointe Hospital in Cleveland OH and PCOM in Philly. There used to be one in NYC about 3-5 years ago but it closed for whatever reason.

Here's a link for all osteopathic internships/residencies:
http://opportunities.aoa-net.org/index.htm

So obviously there are DO plastic surgeons since we have our own fellowships but the numbers are very limited. Also, I know for a fact that two osteopathic hospitals are attempting to start a plastics fellowship: Grandview Medical Center in Dayton OH and Doctor's Hospital in Columbus OH.

I think you are doing the right thing trying to be informed on plastics issues, however, it is important that you realize that plastics is extremely competitive. Not matter what degree you obtain(US MD, DO, Carib. MD), it is going to be difficult. I hope you keep your mind open about other fields and to not let this issue dictate where you decide to attend school. Good luck.

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

Honestly I don't know what would be the difference in malpractice insurance if you did a cosmetic fellowship or a weekend warrior course as opposed to doing a plastic and reconstructive surgery residency/fellowship. I think it would really depend on where you were living. I think the issue would be more getting privaleges to do these procedures at hospitals and surgicenters, but I am sure you could find some place to do just about anything. Businessmen and the general public don't really understand the fine points of board certification etc a lot of the time. Do you at least have some surgical training like general surgery? I know that some family practice guys are now calling themselves cosmetic surgeons. I know a lot of dermatologists call themselves cosmetic surgeons. Obviously I am seriously biased but I don't think I would want to be in the position of having no real surgical training and calling myself a surgeon. Likewise I wouldn't want to have no real training in cardiology and call myself a cardiologist. Why not go through dental school and call yourself a gastroenterologist? If thats acceptable why not just forgo medical training alltogether, get an associates degree from a junior college, and call yourself a neurosurgeon?

I think you should at least try to apply for plastic and reconstructive surgery fellowships. If you have a strong application you should be able to match. I honestly don't see what the problem is. If you don't match then I would pursue other avenues. It seems like you are passionate about wanting to become a plastic surgeon, and that is what counts. If you keep at it, you will end up doing what you want. Don't listen to some of these yahoos that say it is impossible.

I know some cosmetic fellowships that will only take applicants that have prior surgical training. I am curious as to the min. number of cosmetic/asthetic(sp?) procedures PRS requires. I don't know how many is enough.

Here is what the "American Board of Cosmetic Surgery" requires:
http://www.cosmeticsurgery.org/Surgeons/education.asp
http://www.cosmeticsurgery.org/Surgeons/FellowshipGuidelines Amended 1-30-05 - CURRENT.pdf Look at page 11.

Just curious if these min. requirements are acceptable.

It's my opinion that many hospitals would give you privileges with just the min. required for cosmetic surgery fellowships.

Please only honest unbiased comments. None of this, it's not PRS so it sucks stuff.

BTW I am not interested in cosmetics just curious since I know a guy entering cosmetics.

 

[toofache32]

I know some cosmetic fellowships that will only take applicants that have prior surgical training. I am curious as to the min. number of cosmetic/asthetic(sp?) procedures PRS requires. I don't know how many is enough.

Here is what the "American Board of Cosmetic Surgery" requires:
http://www.cosmeticsurgery.org/Surgeons/education.asp
http://www.cosmeticsurgery.org/Surgeons/FellowshipGuidelines Amended 1-30-05 - CURRENT.pdf Look at page 11.

Just curious if these min. requirements are acceptable.

It's my opinion that many hospitals would give you privileges with just the min. required for cosmetic surgery fellowships.

Please only honest unbiased comments. None of this, it's not PRS so it sucks stuff.

BTW I am not interested in cosmetics just curious since I know a guy entering cosmetics.

<grabs a beer and some popcorn for this one...>

 

[NRAI2001]

Doing a search on the link, there are 18 Otolaryn & Facial Plastic Surg residency programs
http://opportunities.aoa-net.org/search/search_results.cfm?CFID=135689&CFTOKEN=68651160

2 Plastic & Reconstructive Surg programs.
http://opportunities.aoa-net.org/search/search_results.cfm?CFID=135689&CFTOKEN=68651160

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

<grabs a beer and some popcorn for this one...>

I don't think I wrote anything imflammatory here. Just looking for honest responses.

 

[navysurgeon]

Maybe a few of the PRS folks out there can weigh in on this...

during the recent FDA hearing regarding approval of silicone breast implants for cosmetic usage, part of the deal for Mentor was to 'certify' only surgeons certified by the ASPS to place the devices...did I hear this correctly?

That implies that docs that have done only a weak 'cosmetic' fellowship are thusly not eligible for certification by Mentor to place the silicone implant...

That's pretty sweet!

Please let me know you're understanding of this situation...GSresident and others...

TNS

 

[maxheadroom]

Keeping silicone in the hands of ABPS-BC/BE surgeons has been in talks, but there's concern that the FTC will step in on the basis of restraint of trade. It is probably illegal to sell devices to someone based upon their credentials. If the device is FDA approved, then it is more or less open for everyone to use.

 

[GSresident]

Maybe a few of the PRS folks out there can weigh in on this...

during the recent FDA hearing regarding approval of silicone breast implants for cosmetic usage, part of the deal for Mentor was to 'certify' only surgeons certified by the ASPS to place the devices...did I hear this correctly?

That implies that docs that have done only a weak 'cosmetic' fellowship are thusly not eligible for certification by Mentor to place the silicone implant...

That's pretty sweet!

Please let me know you're understanding of this situation...GSresident and others...

TNS

I have heard something like that. I am not sure about the particulars. I am sure the ASPS had a lot to do with the crafting of that particular aspect of the bill.

I am not sure what to think about non-ASPS surgeons doing cosmetic surgery. I can definitely see points from both sides of the argument. In the end I think education and the free market will help determine who does what to which patients. If you are dumb enough to go to a dentist to get your breast implants, you're probably not going to understand the difference between a board certified plastic surgeon and a cosmetic surgeon. Oh well. Why do dentists want to do only the cosmetic surgery part of plastic surgery? Why don't they want to do other things that a plastic surgeon has to deal with like gangrene of the perineum, rotten septic decubs, 90% burns, dehisced sternums, chopped off hands, blown off faces etc? Why are they focusing on the cosmetic part of plastic surgery? For that matter, why is it the cosmetic surgery part of medicine that they want to focus on? Why don't they want to do cardiac surgery or neurosurgery? Why not try to steal some of that glamorous anal wart surgery? If they wanted to do plastic surgery, why didn't they just become plastic surgeons in the first place? Furthermore, if you went to DO school because you believed in manipulative medicine, more power to you. Why don't you practice it? Why would someone who chose to forgo allopathic medical school in favor of osteopathic medical school want to practice something that was as limited as cosmetic surgery?

I have heard lots of argument from ASPS types about why you should go to a board certified plastic surgeon to get your cosmetic surgery. I haven't really heard any reasons why you should go to a non-plastic surgeon to get it. Maybe some of the guys who are on that track would like to put forth an argument other than 'we should be able to do it just because.' It doesn't really matter that much to me. I think if you are capable of doing the surgery and can get privileges to do it, and have a patient who wants you to do it, go ahead (within reason).

 

[NRAI2001]

To address the DO statement

I don't think being a DO is probably what it was in the past. DOs have training almost identical to that of MDs (from what i ve heard from several people) and that in practice they do everything MDs do. Very few DO's actually use OMM.

In truth DO schools are easier to get into than are MD schools, though they are becoming more and more competitive. Most students at DO schools probably went to DO school bc they didn't get into a MD school or a MD school they liked and they didn't want to go to the carribean.

Also in truth there still exists some bias against DOs and they have more trouble than their MD counterparts in getting some of the more competitive residencies. So i want to weigh in on all my options, and make the most informed decision i can.

So the way I see it DO is just another option, being that they are almost identical to MDs in training. I think i ll be applying to both MD and DO schools this summer.

 

[GSresident]

Very few DO's actually use OMM.
In truth DO schools are easier to get into than are MD schools, though they are becoming more and more competitive. Most students at DO schools probably went to DO school bc they didn't get into a MD school or a MD school they liked and they didn't want to go to the carribean.

Why go to a school that will teach you manipulative medicine if you don't believe in it enough to use it? If John Doe went to a manipulative medicine school, why shouldn't we expect him to practice what his teachers at least profess a belief in? If osteopathic medicine really is equivalent to allopathic medicine, then why do so many osteopathic students pursue careers in the allopathic tract? If people believe in osteopathic medicine and want to pursue that path I support them wholeheartedly. I don't like it that the DO path is looked on as a lesser path, as something that you do if you can't get into an allopathic school. That isn't really a healthy way of looking at it and it sets people up for a lifetime of an inferiority complex, even if it is only subconscious. If you know that you definately want to pursue a career that is dominated almost exclusively by allopathic doctors, you should do the work and make the sacrifices that it takes to become an allopathic doctor. A huge number of people don't get into an allopathic medical school the first time. Its OK to fail at something and try again. If it takes a couple tries it will make you appreciate your good fortune all the more when it comes.

 

[NRAI2001]

Why go to a school that will teach you manipulative medicine if you don't believe in it enough to use it? If John Doe went to a manipulative medicine school, why shouldn't we expect him to practice what his teachers at least profess a belief in? If osteopathic medicine really is equivalent to allopathic medicine, then why do so many osteopathic students pursue careers in the allopathic tract? If people believe in osteopathic medicine and want to pursue that path I support them wholeheartedly. I don't like it that the DO path is looked on as a lesser path, as something that you do if you can't get into an allopathic school. That isn't really a healthy way of looking at it and it sets people up for a lifetime of an inferiority complex, even if it is only subconscious. If you know that you definately want to pursue a career that is dominated almost exclusively by allopathic doctors, you should do the work and make the sacrifices that it takes to become an allopathic doctor. A huge number of people don't get into an allopathic medical school the first time. Its OK to fail at something and try again. If it takes a couple tries it will make you appreciate your good fortune all the more when it comes.

Manipulation is just one the many things you learn in DO school, not the main thing. Some people do incorporate manipulation into their practice, even though it may not be their entire practice.

I defininitely think that I would some how incorporate manipulation into my practice, though it wouldn't be my main procedure. It is definitely lucrative, something like $40-$50 for every body region (neck, shoulders, and back would be $150). I ve heard varying perspectives to how well it works.

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

Why go to a school that will teach you manipulative medicine if you don't believe in it enough to use it? If John Doe went to a manipulative medicine school, why shouldn't we expect him to practice what his teachers at least profess a belief in?

My professors have taught me alot things that I might never use. I am sure yours have as well. OB/GYN as a plastic surgeon? OMT is just one aspect of osteopathic education. As a future otolaryngologist, I will most likely not use OMT that much, but it is another potential tool than some others do not have.

If osteopathic medicine really is equivalent to allopathic medicine, then why do so many osteopathic students pursue careers in the allopathic tract?

It's an issue of numbers. There aren't enough osteopathic residency slots for all the DO grads. Less fellowships in osteo GME as well. ACGME programs are more geographically diverse since most DO residencies are in the midwest. There are other reasons as well and has been discussed at length in the osteo forums.

Good luck with your fellowship!