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NRAI2001

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I know that anything is possible, but realistically is it possible for a DO grad to get a plastics spot? I m not a DO student, I m just wondering bc I will be applying to med schools this year and a lot of my friends have been talking about DO schools. THanks a lot.
 

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Not realistic for the integrated spots. Slightly more so for a traditional position if you manage to do an allopathic Surgery residency @ a good program. Expect a # of programs to still dismiss you out of hand if you're a DO or IMG even if you do an allopathic surgery residency. The competition for those spots is tight, anything that could be percieved as a negative will make many programs just look at other applicants without the baggage
 
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There is a long, tiresome conversation on this very subject from just a few months ago. Use the tool bar at the bottom of the plastic surgery forum and select to see all posts from the past year. Many of the recent questions that have been posed can be answered by looking up the previous posts.
 

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He's not listed as a member of ASPS or ASAPS. He doesn't display credentials of any real plastic surgery board. He has a "cosmetic surgery" fellowship and is a member of several "cosmetic surgery" associations. He is not a board-certified plastic surgeon.
 

droliver

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Originally posted by maxheadroom
He's not listed as a member of ASPS or ASAPS. He doesn't display credentials of any real plastic surgery board. He has a "cosmetic surgery" fellowship and is a member of several "cosmetic surgery" associations. He is not a board-certified plastic surgeon.

Yep. He's not a Plastic Surgeon. As a rule, when you see people that clog their resume with cosmetic surgery boards that you've never heard of, they didn't do plastic surgery training. Most of those organizations are essentially non-entities that you join by sending $$$ to to get some "board-certification by..... (fill in blank)" certificate. They don't signify any meaningful indicator of skill, education, or quality and for the most part only serve to confuse the consumers. In fact that's really why people list them, to try to blur distinctions b/w Plastic Surgerons and the other providers of cosmetic surgery.
 

maxheadroom

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Hey Ollie, you enjoy that in-service? Ouch!! Pretty sure that I did better on the ABSITE than on that monstrosity. How many microtia questions can a reasonable person ask in 200 questions?
 

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My mistake about the non-board certified DO plastic surgeon. Instead, why don't you guys ask these two people: http://www.plasticsurgery.org/md/drbandy.htm and http://www.plasticsurgery.org/md/jfharrell.htm. These physicians are both certified by the American Board of Plastic Surgery and members of the American Society of Plastic Surgeons. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, they're DOs. The ABPS states that to become board-certified, a person can graduate from an AOA-accredited osteopathic medical school, but has to complete an ACGME accredited residency for a minimum 3 years in general surgery and a minimum of 2 years in plastic surgery. I do admit that there are few board-certified plastic surgeon DOs compared to MDs, but the overall population of DOs are relatively small compared to MDs. Anyways, "where there's a will, there's a way", even in the eccentric realm of traditional western medicine
 

maxheadroom

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Eccentric world of western medicine?? What??

No one said that a DO can't go into PRS. It's just a more difficult road if you have the DO degree instead of the MD degree.

My friend's younger brother got into KCOM and UHS last year and was wait-listed at his state medical school (MD program). He's pretty sure that he wants to do either PRS or ENT. When he asked my advice, I told him that he'd have a better shot with the MD. He took the MCAT again, improved his score, and got into his state MD school. He's finishing his first year and doing ENT research on the side and over the summer. Sure, he could get an ENT residency as a DO, but why make it harder when it's already pretty darn tough?

The majority of DOs that I've worked with have been smart, hard-working, and strong clinicians. A couple haven't been all that great, but I've encountered plenty of MDs whom I don't trust.

Nobody here is saying that the DO degree is inferior -- it's just that the current system tends to favor the MD.
 

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Just like Max said. Its not impossible to get a spot to go the DO way, just very,very unlikely that you'll be able to do it given the competition & overwhelming preference for U.S. MD's. over DO's,IMG, & FMG's.Its harder now then in years past as ~50% of the spots are integrated and as I said before, almost exclusively given to US allopathic students. If you know you want to do PRS, go for the best allopathic general surgery spot you can get & try to work in thru that way.


As for doing 3 yrs of surgery & expecting to match in Plastics, that route is essentially dead with the maturation of the integrated training trend. The remaining spots are almost all going to fully trained surgeons
 
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droliver

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Originally posted by sleep deprived
[BAnd, he is a board certified plastic surgeon who first did a general surgery residency followed by plastics residency/fellowship.[/B]

Again, this is not the same thing (American Board of Osteopathic Surgery) as being boarded by the American Board of Plastic Surgery. The standards & accreditation of these osteopathic boards are not recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialties. By convention when you say someone is board-certified in Plastic Surgery they imply its by the ABPS. This does not imply any judgement on the quality of the work done by any of the other providers of cosmetic procedures, its just to distinguish their backgrounds and qualifications.
 

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Why has this thread become a big focus upon showing us DOs who are (or are not, as the case may be) Plastic Surgeons? No one disputes the ability of a DO to become a Plastic Surgeon. We just said that it's a more difficult road to get the training. I think that you'll find most PRS residents and attendings in agreement that in order to bill yourself as a Plastic Surgeon, you should be BE/BC by the ABPS.
 

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The supreme court ruling was indeed "seperate but equal". So yes, it is the american board of osteopathic surgery, however it is a seperate but equal accreditation.
For example, there are cardiologists who do osteopathic IM residencies, followed by an osteopathic cardiology fellowship.
They are still "board certified cardiologist's".
So in answer to the question "is it possible for a DO to get a plastics spot?"
The answer is yes, you can do and osteopathic surgical residency (or allopathic if you like) followed by and osteopathic plastics fellowship or whatever it is called.
The accrediting agency is "seperate but equal."
 

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Sad to say but it's nearly impossible to become a Plastic Surgeon as a DO. In general, DO's have the best chance at matching in their own osteopathic program. The problem is that there are only 2 osteopathic plastics fellowships in existance. That's one barrier. The other barrier is that DO's even with an allopathic general surgery residency have an impossible time matching plastics fellowships because of their DO status.

Plastic surgery is one of those fields that if you really want to have a chance at it, you should reapply to MD schools because as a DO, your doors are essentially shut in regards to entering this field.
 

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daelroy said:
Sad to say but it's nearly impossible to become a Plastic Surgeon as a DO.

Are graduates of low-ranked allopathic schools in the same boat?
 

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gnin said:
Are graduates of low-ranked allopathic schools in the same boat?

Not as much as being a DO because they are still MD's. Like others have said, it's not about discriminating against DO's but when plastics fellowships receive hundreds of applications from MD's who can virtually walk on water then petty criteria is used to distinguish between candidates such as MD and DO status.
 
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The student from a low ranked allopathic school has something the student from a highly ranked osteopathic lacks: an M.D.
 

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OP asks if DOs have a chance at prs.

Individuals who are training in prs, give their honest opinions, which are generally pessimistic.

DOs come out of the woodwork and turn the thread into "DOs are just as good as MDs", or "MDs have no personality, while DOs are "holistic" healers who have personality".

I have seen a lot of threads by DOs asking what their chances are for various residencies/fellowships. DOs should ask themselves what they would say if the question was reversed. E.g. : "I'm an MD who really wants to do an osteopathic residency, what are my chances?" And let's say that osteopathic residency has 100 slots and 300 very highly qualified DO applicants (which is comparable to the MD numbers for prs fellowship this year). What would the DO answer be? It would probably be "Gee, not that good because the residency is an osteopathic one that is EXTREMELY competitive, so you would be at a disadvantage if you were an MD. Impossible? Probably not. Likely? No.

DOs: Deal with it. You made your choice to earn a DO degree. It is not an equivalent degree in all cases. Not better or worse.

To all pre-meds reading this: Know what you are getting into if you choose the DO route.
 

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Celiac Plexus said:
DOs: Deal with it. You made your choice to earn a DO degree. It is not an equivalent degree in all cases. Not better or worse.

To all pre-meds reading this: Know what you are getting into if you choose the DO route.

I am a 4th year DO student and I totally agree with this. However, I tend to think this way about EVERY aspect of life. If you make a decision and later find yourself in a bind...well, you obviously didn't research your decision very well. I am a total slacker. New mom...yeah, studied for boards as a second year, only with the goal to pass. I passed. Figured I'd do some primary care thing. However, I found that I HATED to office, LOVED the hospital and the OR, and that I am a perfectionist when it comes to surgery, orders, suturing, and just about any procedure. Now, I am kicking myself that I didn't prepare for the possiblity that I would fall in love with something more competitive than primary care. I have average grades, average scores, no research. What I do have is a kick ass work ethic, the desire to do things RIGHT the first time, and the willingness to learn and be taught.

I'd LOVE to do plastics. Half the people tell me it's grades/research/scores..the other half tell me it's personality, who you know, and work ethic. I don't know what's right. All I do know is that I've going for the whole sha-bang. If I don't get a plastics spot, then I'll do general surgery and apply for a fellowship. If I don't get a fellowship, then I'll do general surgery.

I put myself in this position. The decision to go to a DO school was easy - we had a school where I lived, my husband has a great job here, it was easier for our family for me to go here. I don't regret choosing a DO school. I regret not preparing myself for what may come my way. If I can't get a plastics spot or a fellowship (after finishing gensurg residency) - then it's my own fault.

I'm not even sure I can rotate thru a plastics program yet....they have to check my grades, class rank, etc...I may have shot myself in the foot by not being prepared....

If you want to do plastics and you are a DO...the best you can do is go for it. You sure as hell aren't going to get a spot by sitting on here and wanting feedback from everyone as to whether you have a shot at it.
 

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One of my senior surgery residents landed a plastics spot in PA and she is has just started her fellowship. She was an excellent general surgeon...and is currently a plastics fellow...and a DO.

Anything is possible....do your best...work like hell..and give it a shot...

Never say never....
 

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Celiac Plexus said:
OP asks if DOs have a chance at prs.

Individuals who are training in prs, give their honest opinions, which are generally pessimistic.

DOs come out of the woodwork and turn the thread into "DOs are just as good as MDs", or "MDs have no personality, while DOs are "holistic" healers who have personality".

I have seen a lot of threads by DOs asking what their chances are for various residencies/fellowships. DOs should ask themselves what they would say if the question was reversed. E.g. : "I'm an MD who really wants to do an osteopathic residency, what are my chances?" And let's say that osteopathic residency has 100 slots and 300 very highly qualified DO applicants (which is comparable to the MD numbers for prs fellowship this year). What would the DO answer be? It would probably be "Gee, not that good because the residency is an osteopathic one that is EXTREMELY competitive, so you would be at a disadvantage if you were an MD. Impossible? Probably not. Likely? No.

DOs: Deal with it. You made your choice to earn a DO degree. It is not an equivalent degree in all cases. Not better or worse.

To all pre-meds reading this: Know what you are getting into if you choose the DO route.

I agree with this, but I also feel as though this attitude writes off the attitude as 'just the way it goes'. It doesnt have to be that way, and if all applicants were compared, side-by-side, without their letters after their names, you can bet that the mix would likely be more representative of the population, especially regionally. Obviously derm is competitive, for
MDs as well as DOs...when 9 students from Harvard and 12 from UCSF want to do derm, with super grades and 250+ boards, it is going to be hard for anyone to break into that crowd. For us DOs (many of whom also have great grdaes and 250+ boards) it is that much harder.

It really is somewhat discriminatory, we just have to deal with it. I still enjoy my school for the most part and enjoy my clinical learning, for the most part. I think that opinion is held by most all students, regardless of their institution.

I plan on fighting the power, and the more DOs that we get interested in, and applying to, competitive subspecialties, the better our representation will become, because PD's would be foolish to turn down the most qualified applicants, even should they happen to be DOs.

My $.02
 

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After careful review of all the information, i have your answer....

NO.

It's not possible. When you send your application in, the hoity-toity program director who can choose whomever he wants for his program will not choose a DO. This is not to be offensive to DO's....it's just the way the game works. Do yourself a favor, get your MD if you want every opportunity available to you. I'm not saying it's right...it just is.
 

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Wrong my friends. If you look at the % of MD vs. DO who match to prs it is about 94% MD and about 6% DO. Now, let us look at the number of current MD students vs the number of current DO students nationally. That is about 93% MD vs 7% DO (by number). Following me here. If you are a DO and you want an prs spot you must do the following:

1. Do 3-4 prs elective audition rotation at spots you want to go.
2. Do well in surgery and medicine rotations.
3. Be likable.
4. Score above a 235-240 in USMLE step I.

Go gettem.

NF
 

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normalforce said:
Wrong my friends. If you look at the % of MD vs. DO who match to prs it is about 94% MD and about 6% DO

Where'd you get the 6% figure for the sfmatch (or are you referring to the integrated match out of medical school)? I did not see any breakdown of MD vs. DO successful applicants on the stats breakdown they provide. I would be surprised if there were 6 successful DO applicants (there's about 100 spots) after seeing the CV's of many highly qualified MD's who failed to match.
 
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GeddyLee said:
After careful review of all the information, i have your answer....

NO.

It's not possible. When you send your application in, the hoity-toity program director who can choose whomever he wants for his program will not choose a DO. This is not to be offensive to DO's....it's just the way the game works. Do yourself a favor, get your MD if you want every opportunity available to you. I'm not saying it's right...it just is.


Apparently an MD is no fail safe either.
 

NRAI2001

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I m sure there are big difference between the two, but what can a plastic surgeon do that a cosmetic surgeon can't?
 

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Celiac Plexus said:
OP asks if DOs have a chance at prs.

Individuals who are training in prs, give their honest opinions, which are generally pessimistic.

DOs come out of the woodwork and turn the thread into "DOs are just as good as MDs", or "MDs have no personality, while DOs are "holistic" healers who have personality".

I have seen a lot of threads by DOs asking what their chances are for various residencies/fellowships. DOs should ask themselves what they would say if the question was reversed. E.g. : "I'm an MD who really wants to do an osteopathic residency, what are my chances?" And let's say that osteopathic residency has 100 slots and 300 very highly qualified DO applicants (which is comparable to the MD numbers for prs fellowship this year). What would the DO answer be? It would probably be "Gee, not that good because the residency is an osteopathic one that is EXTREMELY competitive, so you would be at a disadvantage if you were an MD. Impossible? Probably not. Likely? No.

DOs: Deal with it. You made your choice to earn a DO degree. It is not an equivalent degree in all cases. Not better or worse.

To all pre-meds reading this: Know what you are getting into if you choose the DO route.

Vent, Novacek and Daelroy are DO's and they all agreed with you. That's three DO's who just agreed with you so what the hell are you talking about? Make that 4 because I agree with you too.
 

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NRAI2001 said:
I m sure there are big difference between the two, but what can a plastic surgeon do that a cosmetic surgeon can't?

when you get a medical license, you are licensed to practice "medicine and surgery." There is no official board of "cosmetic surgery," so really anyone can call themselves a "cosmetic surgeon," or do a "cosmetic" fellowship, which is pure nonsense.

The difference is that a real plastic surgeon is board certified, which of course requires an accredited training program and written and oral exams.
 

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i recently met a general surgeon (MD) that did a one-year 'fellowship' in Arizona (Mayo, i think) with a strict focus on breast recon post mastectomy, breast reduction, and lifts and augmentations...that's it. she's doing it 20% of her total practice volume, out in south-eastern WA. The rest of the time, she's doing gen surg.

I think that, although she is not board certified in plastics, she is certainly well prepared to deal with any of the attendant complications that might arise from her breast surgery practice...

What do the plastics trained folks think about this scenario?

If I fail to match in plastics next year (God help me...) this is an option I would consider.

Your thoughts?
 

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Okay, I looked at this site. It looks to me like Dr. Locknikar did Facial plastics (NOT the same as a plastic surgery residency) and Dr. Becker did an osteopathic plastics fellowship. I am not arguing that a DO can't be a good cosmetic surgeon, but I would say that it would be close to impossible to get an integrated/combined spot.
 

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Harrie said:
Okay, I looked at this site. It looks to me like Dr. Locknikar did Facial plastics (NOT the same as a plastic surgery residency) and Dr. Becker did an osteopathic plastics fellowship. I am not arguing that a DO can't be a good cosmetic surgeon, but I would say that it would be close to impossible to get an integrated/combined spot.

What is facial plastics? Is it a residency also or a fellowship?
 

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JAMA, September 1, 2004. Vol 292, No. 9. Page 1099-1100

Appendix II, Table 1. Resident Physicians on Duty in ACGME-Accredited and in Combine Specialty Graduage Medical Education Programs August 1, 2003

Specialty: Plastic Surgery
Total No. of Programs - 87
Total No. - 556
No. of Osteopathic - 1
No. of Canadians - 3
No. of IMG - 29
No. of USMD - 523
% female - 21% (117)
 

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group_theory said:
JAMA, September 1, 2004. Vol 292, No. 9. Page 1099-1100

Appendix II, Table 1. Resident Physicians on Duty in ACGME-Accredited and in Combine Specialty Graduage Medical Education Programs August 1, 2003

Specialty: Plastic Surgery
Total No. of Programs - 87
Total No. - 556
No. of Osteopathic - 1
No. of Canadians - 3
No. of IMG - 29
No. of USMD - 523
% female - 21% (117)

There are 87 programs, but how man new residents are accepted into plastics each year?
 

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NRAI2001 said:
There are 87 programs, but how man new residents are accepted into plastics each year?


556- devide that number by 2.5 since most plastic fellowships are 2-3 years so I would say there are roughly 275 spots each year.

How are there more IMG's than DO's who matched in plastics?
 

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Jason_AZCOM said:
It is very possible for D.O. to go into, and excel, at plastic surgery. Just ask my preceptors: Dr. Locnikar and Dr. Becker

The only one of that group that is a true plastic surgeon is Dr. Becker. The fellowship that he acquired is one of only two DO plastic surgery fellowships in the country. This is why it is next to impossible for a DO to become an officially licensed PLASTIC surgeon. DO's have no real chance at an allopathic fellowship. According to the stats, one DO matched in the plastics fellowship.

Dr. Locnikar is nothing but an ENT with a fellowship in facial plastics trying to mask himself as a "cosmetic surgeon who specializes in the head and neck area." Facial plastics isn't the same thing as being a plastic surgeon.

Dr. Marouk is a general surgeon who attained one of those mail order "cosmetic surgery fellowships." You should be skeptical because his fellowship was only 1 year whereas most plastics surgery fellowships are between 2-3 years. A Cosmetic Surgery Fellowship is not the same as a Plastic Surgery fellowship. Cosmetic surgery fellowships are kind of a scam. It's not PRS. Basically, anyone with a pulse can attain and be "licensed" in one of those fellowships. A lot of general surgeons who couldn't match in plastics take one of these training courses and licensed in "cosmetic surgery." The public doesn't know the difference between plastic surgery and cosmetic surgery and assume it is the same training etc which it isn't.

Last but not least, Dr. Presant is just a general surgeon. He doesn't have any fellowship of any kind yet he is a member of the "Arizona Society of Cosmetic Surgeons" as if that is some official board. He specializes in "vein removal."
 

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normalforce said:
Wrong my friends. If you look at the % of MD vs. DO who match to prs it is about 94% MD and about 6% DO. Now, let us look at the number of current MD students vs the number of current DO students nationally. That is about 93% MD vs 7% DO (by number). Following me here. If you are a DO and you want an prs spot you must do the following:

1. Do 3-4 prs elective audition rotation at spots you want to go.
2. Do well in surgery and medicine rotations.
3. Be likable.
4. Score above a 235-240 in USMLE step I.

Go gettem.

NF

Did you just make up these statistics in your head?
 

NRAI2001

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novacek88 said:
556- devide that number by 2.5 since most plastic fellowships are 2-3 years so I would say there are roughly 275 spots each year.

How are there more IMG's than DO's who matched in plastics?


So to become a plastic surgeon you need to do a fellowship? I thought u go straight into a 5-6 year plastics residency program right after med school? Or do u do a general surgery residency then a plastics fellowship?
 

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NRAI2001 said:
So to become a plastic surgeon you need to do a fellowship? I thought u go straight into a 5-6 year plastics residency program right after med school? Or do u do a general surgery residency then a plastics fellowship?

They have these 5-6 year programs but they are new and extremely limited. They are referred to as integrated plastics. There are far less of these programs in existence than even derm. Integrated plastics is the most difficult field to match and no DO has ever matched into one of these 5-6 integrated plastics positions. Integrated plastics usually only go to Jr. AOA and 250 Step I with strong research and LOR's. The traditional way of entering plastic surgery was one did a 5 year general surgery residency first and then applied for a fellowship in plastics. There are two of these osteopathic related fellowships in plastic surgery. And it is nearly impossible for a DO to match into an allopathic plastics fellowship given the ridiculous competition. And this applies to DO's who have completed an allopathic general surgery requriement.

People are skirting the process by performing plastic surgery without formal fellowship training like the DO who specialized in vein removal above. Or they acquire a fellowship in cosmetic surgery which is more or less a seminar type of training that anyone can get if they are willing to put up the cash. The cosmetic fellowship is pretty much a scam and they get away with it because they don't use the word plastic in it's definition. Cosmetic surgeons never claim to be plastic surgeons; they claim to be cosmetic surgeons. They are not board certified. There is no such thing as a Cosmetic Surgery Board. The general population is unaware of the difference so for all intensive purposes they perform plastic surgery.

Technically, anyone can perform plastic surgery even a family practice doc. The difference is that those who aren't certified in PRS will not be insured or have a difficult time being insured for those procedures and many insurance companies refuse to reimburse or compensate a physician who isn't properly trained. I don't know how insurance companies view physicians with a fellowship in cosmetic surgery?
 
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