Is it possible to fail 4th year?

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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I’m sure it’s still possible to fail.

Had a colleague fail emergency medicine, which was a 4th year required rotation. He remediated in the spring, but it would have sucked if that was the rotation they ended on.

Knew of another who failed Step 2 CK. While this doesn’t fail you, it could affect residency if you don’t remediate.
 
I've heard stories of people failing because of unprofessionalism (i.e 4th years that just dont show up at all, forge evaluations, take way too many days off and try to play it off, etc)
 
Wonder if people fail 3rd year?? And how the repeat/failing rate after you pass the first 2 years.
 
OnePunchBiopsy said:
I’m sure it’s still possible to fail.

Had a colleague fail emergency medicine, which was a 4th year required rotation. He remediated in the spring, but it would have sucked if that was the rotation they ended on.
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Oh no. Do you know why he failed?

hopefulgasman said:
@nebuchadnezzarII

Your posts always crack me up. In one form or another, your posts are always about barely/low passing everything in order to just get by and I know you're being honest and sincere. As long as you show up and can't be docked for playing hookie and don't flip off or cuss anyone out, I think you'll be okay my dude.
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hahah! I’m just trying to stay afloat man. I didn’t know what I was getting into when I applied to med school. 4 years later and I’m still clueless. Haven’t failed anything and haven’t killed anyone yet. So I guess that’s a plus!
 
I didn’t show up for an entire week to my ICU rotation during MS4. When I came back the attending was like: “Where have you been? Wandering around in a drunken haze?”

I replied: “yes.”

He said: “well ok then,” and continued rounds like nothing happened.

I’m sure you can fail, but it is incredibly difficult to do so.

P.S. - I got honors.
 
Tenk said:
I didn’t show up for an entire week to my ICU rotation during MS4. When I came back the attending was like: “Where have you been? Wandering around in a drunken haze?”

I replied: “yes.”

He said: “well ok then,” and continued rounds like nothing happened.

I’m sure you can fail, but it is incredibly difficult to do so.

P.S. - I got honors.
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Sounds like typical 4th year. Most attendings have been in those shoes, so they understand what's going on. But word of caution to medical students: you have to get a good read of the attending or preceptor before you pull stuff like that.
 
Giovanotto said:
Yeah, I'm really pushing my luck as a 4th year right now. I'm doing even less than you, I've never been so checked out before. One more to go!
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I had an attending ask me recently if i had senioritis...

I used to feel bad when given the option to “you can stay and see what happens or go home” and i would leave... now im like BYE even if it is 11 am lol
 
Tenk said:
I didn’t show up for an entire week to my ICU rotation during MS4. When I came back the attending was like: “Where have you been? Wandering around in a drunken haze?”

I replied: “yes.”

He said: “well ok then,” and continued rounds like nothing happened.

I’m sure you can fail, but it is incredibly difficult to do so.

P.S. - I got honors.
Click to expand...

Legendary.
Those attendings are the best.
 
Goro said:
Dude, I've a had student get kicked off of a 4th year rotation!
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Can you tell me more? I try to work hard but I miss things sometimes I’m just really bad at pimp questions in public and it makes me look dumb in front of everyone (because I am).
 
I feel this way on third year. It’s hard especially when you sit around on those boring rotations where you really aren’t needed at all.
 
Had someone in my class fail fourth year.

He/she took a research elective and never turned in the required one page summary of what he/she did. The student was then caught lying about doing a research project at all during that time and subsequently failed. He/she had to give up their matched spot at a top 20 program in their desired specialty. Don't lie, folks.
 
Aurum said:
Had someone in my class fail fourth year.

He/she took a research elective and never turned in the required one page summary of what he/she did. The student was then caught lying about doing a research project at all during that time and subsequently failed. He/she had to give up their matched spot at a top 20 program in their desired specialty. Don't lie, folks.
Click to expand...
From my observation, most people don’t get in trouble for what they did, they get in trouble for lying about it, e.g. Bill Clinton.
 
Aurum said:
Had someone in my class fail fourth year.

He/she took a research elective and never turned in the required one page summary of what he/she did. The student was then caught lying about doing a research project at all during that time and subsequently failed. He/she had to give up their matched spot at a top 20 program in their desired specialty. Don't lie, folks.
Click to expand...

tenor.gif


Ouch.
 
sb247 said:
Some idiot always finds a way to fail something easy.
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Damn. I’m on an intensive care unit rotation and I’m very overwhelmed and am showing constant incompetence. Haven’t had a clinical elective since 2019 and this is not anywhere near my speciality. So, I’m having a hard time, with many knowledge gaps.
 
nebuchadnezzarII said:
Damn. I’m on an intensive care unit rotation and I’m very overwhelmed and am showing constant incompetence. Haven’t had a clinical elective since 2019 and this is not anywhere near my speciality. So, I’m having a hard time, with many knowledge gaps.
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Take heart that as long as you show up and appear to care even a bit, you will pass the rotation. But maybe use it as a good reason to kick your butt into gear because July 1 is coming up pretty fast and even if you're in an almost-totally-nonclinical specialty like Path, there will be a LOT more expected of you very soon.
 
nebuchadnezzarII said:
Damn. I’m on an intensive care unit rotation and I’m very overwhelmed and am showing constant incompetence. Haven’t had a clinical elective since 2019 and this is not anywhere near my speciality. So, I’m having a hard time, with many knowledge gaps.
Click to expand...

Marino's ICU Book.
 
Aurum said:
Had someone in my class fail fourth year.

He/she took a research elective and never turned in the required one page summary of what he/she did. The student was then caught lying about doing a research project at all during that time and subsequently failed. He/she had to give up their matched spot at a top 20 program in their desired specialty. Don't lie, folks.
Click to expand...
Wow I wish my school would price match credits. *cries in ten page paper and half hour presentation for research credit*
 
Someone I know didn't graduate because he failed one of the steps. It must have been step 2ck. In order to enter 3rd year at my former school, one had to pass step 1. So he was put on a six year plan and completed all his rotations and still didn't pass one of the steps.
 
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nebuchadnezzarII said:
Damn. I’m on an intensive care unit rotation and I’m very overwhelmed and am showing constant incompetence. Haven’t had a clinical elective since 2019 and this is not anywhere near my speciality. So, I’m having a hard time, with many knowledge gaps.
Click to expand...
ICU rotations are rough. Imagine having an important away in that setting! You'll be okay.
 
Giovanotto said:
ICU rotations are rough. Imagine having an important away in that setting! You'll be okay.
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Yes and no. If you play “I am following one patient, but I know everything about the patient” game. You will be fine.

Know the labs, know what the consultants said, know some of the family/social challenges. You don’t really need “hard” knowledge to pass icu..... but if you cannot even take initiative to write down the information, I can see why it’s challenging. Or have some hard-on senior residents (sorry FMGs/IMGs, who just don’t understand the medical education structure in this country) who don’t understand senioritis.

4th year is very difficult to fail.
 
IMGASMD said:
Yes and no. If you play “I am following one patient, but I know everything about the patient” game. You will be fine.

Know the labs, know what the consultants said, know some of the family/social challenges. You don’t really need “hard” knowledge to pass icu..... but if you cannot even take initiative to write down the information, I can see why it’s challenging. Or have some hard-on senior residents (sorry FMGs/IMGs, who just don’t understand the medical education structure in this country) who don’t understand senioritis.

4th year is very difficult to fail.
Click to expand...
I have an over-enthusiastic senior resident who made me start with 3 patients the first day. I have an attending who quizzes and pimps me whenever I finish presenting. I wish there was a way to prep for it, but the questions are often completely unrelated to the organ system or the condition of the patient. My senior resident insists I come back after lunch (at least I get that) for “education.” It’s usually a useless teaching session or one that never happen. I stand around and am dismissed at 4 pm and anytime I ask if there’s anything we can do to help, they say “we will see what comes up” and turn their faces back to work.

Feel like a third year again.
 
nebuchadnezzarII said:
I have an over-enthusiastic senior resident who made me start with 3 patients the first day. I have an attending who quizzes and pimps me whenever I finish presenting. I wish there was a way to prep for it, but the questions are often completely unrelated to the organ system or the condition of the patient. My senior resident insists I come back after lunch (at least I get that) for “education.” It’s usually a useless teaching session or one that never happen. I stand around and am dismissed at 4 pm and anytime I ask if there’s anything we can do to help, they say “we will see what comes up” and turn their faces back to work.

Feel like a third year again.
Click to expand...

Sounds rough.

I did my floor Sub-I after match day. My attending (the chief of IM) told me during the end-of-rotation evaluation that he was really impressed I showed up.He and the residents sent me home by 3 everyday. It was great-I worked enough to get back in the swing of clinical care for internship, but light enough I had a lot of time to see my wife and just hang out.

Still, as others said, it is certainly possible to fail-but you’d probably have to try. Though I’m impressed the poster above was able to not show up for a week-I feel most attendings probably would fail you for that (I think almost as many would give you the extra time off if you asked).
 
nebuchadnezzarII said:
I have an over-enthusiastic senior resident who made me start with 3 patients the first day. I have an attending who quizzes and pimps me whenever I finish presenting. I wish there was a way to prep for it, but the questions are often completely unrelated to the organ system or the condition of the patient. My senior resident insists I come back after lunch (at least I get that) for “education.” It’s usually a useless teaching session or one that never happen. I stand around and am dismissed at 4 pm and anytime I ask if there’s anything we can do to help, they say “we will see what comes up” and turn their faces back to work.

Feel like a third year again.
Click to expand...
THey can’t stop the clock. This too shall pass
 
nebuchadnezzarII said:
If you show up, don't lie, get 80% of pimp question wrong, and do what the resident tells you to (albeit poorly), can you still pass?
Click to expand...

If you purposefully try to, yes you can( but it takes a lot of dedication from your part)... we used to have required rotations, which you had to take seriously. But there will be a crack of whip when you first get into the intern year, thats when you realize I got a long way to go.
 
nebuchadnezzarII said:
I have an over-enthusiastic senior resident who made me start with 3 patients the first day. I have an attending who quizzes and pimps me whenever I finish presenting. I wish there was a way to prep for it, but the questions are often completely unrelated to the organ system or the condition of the patient. My senior resident insists I come back after lunch (at least I get that) for “education.” It’s usually a useless teaching session or one that never happen. I stand around and am dismissed at 4 pm and anytime I ask if there’s anything we can do to help, they say “we will see what comes up” and turn their faces back to work.

Feel like a third year again.
Click to expand...

Push yourself man. Get yourself efficient enough to pre-round on 8 ICU patients. Each day figure out where you are wasting time and make the process more efficient. You'll thank yourself as a resident
 
Yes, it is possible to fail 4th year.

www.cleveland.com

CWRU blocks graduation from med school over "professionalism" issues; judge orders degree be awarded

Case Western Reserve University must award a medical degree to a student it had determined did not merit one because he lacked "professionalism," a federal judge ordered this week.
www.cleveland.com www.cleveland.com

www.cleveland.com

Former Case Western Reserve University medical student loses battle to keep degree

The U.S. Supreme Court declined to review an appeals court ruling that allows Case Western Reserve University to revoke a former student's medical degree, according to a court document filed Monday.
www.cleveland.com www.cleveland.com

forums.studentdoctor.net

Help. Expelled - Misconduct

Hi I am in an bad situtation. I began med school in canada in 2008. I did fine. I skipped a few classes here and there, but passed each year. I wrote the canadian licensing exam MCCQE in my final year and passed. I had a residency lined up. In fourth year I applied to graduate after...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net

And in case you think the same can't happen in your final year of residency just before graduation, see these two cases:

www.nydailynews.com

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A pint-size Miami medical professional who infamously lost it on Uber driver has now lost her job.
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www.vnews.com

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Lebanon — A former resident physician who was fired from Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical
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Mass Effect said:
Yes, it is possible to fail 4th year.

www.cleveland.com

CWRU blocks graduation from med school over "professionalism" issues; judge orders degree be awarded

Case Western Reserve University must award a medical degree to a student it had determined did not merit one because he lacked "professionalism," a federal judge ordered this week.
www.cleveland.com www.cleveland.com

www.cleveland.com

Former Case Western Reserve University medical student loses battle to keep degree

The U.S. Supreme Court declined to review an appeals court ruling that allows Case Western Reserve University to revoke a former student's medical degree, according to a court document filed Monday.
www.cleveland.com www.cleveland.com

forums.studentdoctor.net

Help. Expelled - Misconduct

Hi I am in an bad situtation. I began med school in canada in 2008. I did fine. I skipped a few classes here and there, but passed each year. I wrote the canadian licensing exam MCCQE in my final year and passed. I had a residency lined up. In fourth year I applied to graduate after...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net

And in case you think the same can't happen in your final year of residency just before graduation, see these two cases:

www.nydailynews.com

Miami doctor who berated Uber driver in viral video is fired

A pint-size Miami medical professional who infamously lost it on Uber driver has now lost her job.
www.nydailynews.com www.nydailynews.com

www.vnews.com

Fired Resident Sues DHMC Claiming Whistleblower Retaliation

Lebanon — A former resident physician who was fired from Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical
www.vnews.com
Click to expand...
Wow! But I have to say, all of these things look like professionalism issues (albeit SERIOUS professionalism issues). That part, I think people should be okay with: show up, don't say anything offensive/weird, try to do your wokr. I meant more academic reasons for failure like being slaughtered during pimping.
 
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longhaul3 said:
I've never heard of a med student failing anything, let alone a post-interview 4th year elective, for missing pimp questions.
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Ive missed a lot of pimp questions on my recent rotation... but it was an elective so i wasnt even expected to know minutiae. Still learned a LOT.

Effort is expected. Basic knowledge is expected.
 
nebuchadnezzarII said:
Wow! But I have to say, all of these things look like professionalism issues (albeit SERIOUS professionalism issues). That part, I think people should be okay with: show up, don't say anything offensive/weird, try to do your wokr. I meant more academic reasons for failure like being slaughtered during pimping.
Click to expand...

Yes, you can, if people grading you think you're completely incompetent. Most people don't fail because if you can pass the Steps, you're likely not completely incompetent. But yes, if you get to 4th year and you kill a patient or do other things that put patients at risk, out of line with standard of care and your own duties/obligations as a med student, you can fail. There was an MS 4 on here who had an elective he never went to. The elective failed him. He failed the rotation year and couldn't graduate on time. When it came to light he signed in to things he didn't show up to (or something similar, don't remember the exact details), he was expelled. There's a thin line between professionalism and academics.
 
Mass Effect said:
Yes, you can, if people grading you think you're completely incompetent. Most people don't fail because if you can pass the Steps, you're likely not completely incompetent. But yes, if you get to 4th year and you kill a patient or do other things that put patients at risk, out of line with standard of care and your own duties/obligations as a med student, you can fail. There was an MS 4 on here who had an elective he never went to. The elective failed him. He failed the rotation year and couldn't graduate on time. When it came to light he signed in to things he didn't show up to (or something similar, don't remember the exact details), he was expelled. There's a thin line between professionalism and academics.
Click to expand...
Yep, that makes sense! Patient safety is important, and signing fake/false documents or simply NOT showing up should result in consequences at any year. I do feel a little reassured, however. It's like for 4th year, you have to put in 0% or a negative percentage of effort to fail from everything I'm seeing here. Thank you guys.
 
nebuchadnezzarII said:
I have an over-enthusiastic senior resident who made me start with 3 patients the first day. I have an attending who quizzes and pimps me whenever I finish presenting. I wish there was a way to prep for it, but the questions are often completely unrelated to the organ system or the condition of the patient. My senior resident insists I come back after lunch (at least I get that) for “education.” It’s usually a useless teaching session or one that never happen. I stand around and am dismissed at 4 pm and anytime I ask if there’s anything we can do to help, they say “we will see what comes up” and turn their faces back to work.

Feel like a third year again.
Click to expand...

As an intern, I had three icu patients. Night float I had the house, which was ten, at most twelve (2 from sicu).

If you think it’s too much, let your senior know, or let your intern know. Hoping attending is done next week. Or just say I don’t know for all the pimp questions. After awhile it just doesn’t matter no more.

But if you’re doing IM/GS and this will be part of your internship, I’d try to ramp up to it.

Good luck, op.
 
IMGASMD said:
As an intern, I had three icu patients. Night float I had the house, which was ten, at most twelve (2 from sicu).

If you think it’s too much, let your senior know, or let your intern know. Hoping attending is done next week. Or just say I don’t know for all the pimp questions. After awhile it just doesn’t matter no more.

But if you’re doing IM/GS and this will be part of your internship, I’d try to ramp up to it.

Good luck, op.
Click to expand...
Thanks very much. I'm not doing IM/GS or even a preliminary year! But I'll still try to do my best.
 
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