Is it possible to work ~20 hours a week after residency?

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EvaEvaEva

EvaEvaEva

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I've heard that during residency, one has to work...A LOT! But what about afterwards when one actually starts practicing? Is it possible to perhaps have a...20 hour work week?
 
Possible yes, but it can be very difficult to find such a JOB arrangemet (depending on what specialty you are talking about). I can only speak for Family Medicine, but remember that as a physician, YOU are RESPONSIBLE for YOUR patients. No one in your group is really willing to take the responsibility and the liability for you. It is on your own shoulders. Also keep in mind that you will be doing other "Administrative work" in addition to your patient contact hours (writing up charts - takes lots of time, meetings, ect...). In addition you will HAVE to take CALL. And taking call, my friend, is the same regardless if you work part-time or full-time. If anything, a part-time doc could be asked to possibly take more call than the full-time partners to help them out.

But again, it depends on what specialty you are talking about, but in general, for a clinical patient oriented specialty where you will be an employee in a group, it can be very difficult to have a group "sympathize" with a doc who wants to work part-time. Again, ER/urgent care and Rads, can be different...but again you will be an employee and the work load needs to be shared fairly amongst all partners.

In the end, you and you alone, is who is responsible for your own patients.
 
Thanks very much! It's just I want to raise kids someday and have family time too you know? Would you give me some examples (although it must vary a lot from case to case) of what specializations would make it easier to work the least possible hours? I'm thinking psychiatry is one of them.
 
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EvaEvaEva said:
Thanks very much! It's just I want to raise kids someday and have family time too you know? Would you give me some examples (although it must vary a lot from case to case) of what specializations would make it easier to work the least possible hours? I'm thinking psychiatry is one of them.
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Yes - psych
 
Any specialty that requires continuity of care is bad for this kind of thing. As someone who wants to be a mom, would you want a pediatrician who's only available part time? Best bets for this kind of thing would be emergency med, rad, or path, where you could try to join a group and work only part time for part time pay. I have heard of such groups in pathology.
 
You might be able to get 24 hrs a week in 2x12 hour shifts. My sister (IM doc) had a son recently and switched to this as a hospitalist.
 
Very manageable with ER. Many docs go part-time... It's harder with a surgical specialty but not impossible. Joining with a larger group would probably have more flexibility...

I'm going solo in a year so call 365 days a year lol.
 
I know a doc who does about that, she has four kids. I have no idea how hard it is to find a job like that. She is in family practice.
 
My vote is for EM or psych. Psych would be better if you want to own your own practice. EM might allow for more income potential. Psych residencies are usually less demanding than most other fields.
 
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JESSFALLING said:
My vote is for EM or psych. Psych would be better if you want to own your own practice.
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I can't imagine only working 20 hours a week at my own practice. Most of that would be spent running the place, with just a little time left over for appointments.

Emergency is definitely a good candidate, although I know a breast surgeon who works ridiculously few hours. She is part of a larger practice so the other surgeons take over when she is gone, and she's really really good at what she does so they keep her around for special cases.
 
You can do this very, very easily in EM. Other fields it would likely require more searching to find the right spot.
 
SnowyRox said:
I can't imagine only working 20 hours a week at my own practice. Most of that would be spent running the place, with just a little time left over for appointments.
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I was thinking more of a cash-based practice for this, which can be done. I agree that it would be a hassle otherwise.
 
OP, the biggest roadblock you'll face is student debt issues. You need to work had to get into a cheaper school if you want this kind of freedom (unless you have other means of support, of course!)
 
There are a lot of psychiatrists who work part time. You certainly can set up a private practice in psych any way you want, but you would have to cover your own overhead too. It might make more sense to work in a group practice or at somewhere like the VA so the overheard issue isn't as much of a factor.
 
It's possible, just as it's theoretically possible to be a walk-on QB for a pro football team.
 
EvaEvaEva said:
I've heard that during residency, one has to work...A LOT! But what about afterwards when one actually starts practicing? Is it possible to perhaps have a...20 hour work week?
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I shadowed a heme/onc female physician working in a hospital/associated-clinic who originally split her time 50/50 patients and research but after having kids dropped the research goals and works ~25 hours per week (and makes half the pay). I don't know how many jobs will be available with those hours off the bat but im sure you could make it happen down the road if it was a priority
 
In derm, particularly in geographical areas where cosmetics are in high demand (metropolitan areas, rich suburbs, etc), I've seen a good number of female attendings who very much work part time (~20 hours a week). It's a field that seems much more receptive to family issues and such than most others, and as long as you can find a practice that is fine with that, it can be very possible in derm.

Now, getting into derm, that's a different story . . .
 
This may seem really rude, but if you're only planning to work 20 hours a week as an attending, you might be better off going into another field (PA for instance). Lots of people manage to have families and work more than 20 hours a week (for the record, even 40 hours can be considered 'part-time' in some places, especially for a physician). It's might be rather difficult to find a position straight out of residency working part time. Possible, sure. But that doesn't mean it'll be easy.

As someone above mentioned, you are going to have student loans to pay off, and it's a whole lot easier if you're making a full salary, rather than a part-time salary. If you go into another field (such as PA), you'll likely have less debt, so you can afford to work less.
 
mvenus929 said:
This may seem really rude, but if you're only planning to work 20 hours a week as an attending, you might be better off going into another field (PA for instance). Lots of people manage to have families and work more than 20 hours a week (for the record, even 40 hours can be considered 'part-time' in some places, especially for a physician). It's might be rather difficult to find a position straight out of residency working part time. Possible, sure. But that doesn't mean it'll be easy.

As someone above mentioned, you are going to have student loans to pay off, and it's a whole lot easier if you're making a full salary, rather than a part-time salary. If you go into another field (such as PA), you'll likely have less debt, so you can afford to work less.
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I agree

Why would you go into a field that you know requires a lot of time? And to only work 20 hours when someone else might be willing to work more? Also, derm is competitive enough as it is. It also limits what kind of doctor you want to be based on hours isn't the best idea (from what many residents/doctors on here have said). Most people raise kids with both parents working full time, I don't see why you couldn't.
 
mvenus929 said:
This may seem really rude, but if you're only planning to work 20 hours a week as an attending, you might be better off going into another field (PA for instance). Lots of people manage to have families and work more than 20 hours a week (for the record, even 40 hours can be considered 'part-time' in some places, especially for a physician). It's might be rather difficult to find a position straight out of residency working part time. Possible, sure. But that doesn't mean it'll be easy.

As someone above mentioned, you are going to have student loans to pay off, and it's a whole lot easier if you're making a full salary, rather than a part-time salary. If you go into another field (such as PA), you'll likely have less debt, so you can afford to work less.
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Do we know the OP has student loans to pay off? Let's not jump to conclusions.

Anyway, your post wasn't rude, it was just dumb. It's not any of your business what people do with their medical degree. If they want to use it to promote Hydroxycut, so be it. If OP wants to work 25 hours a week and be a mother, then I say go for it. There's no guarantee she'll get such a sweet gig, of course, and she should be fully informed about this prior to attending medical school (which is why she's posting on this site). But the decision to work 20, or 80, or 15, or 55 hours a week is hers alone to make.
 
I agree with the above posts. If OP wants to work part time, if the opportunity exists, she should take it. I have a family and I see nothing wrong with wanting to devote just as much time to your children as your career. After all family comes first, then career...at least in my book. I'm sure some of you disagree.
 
notbobtrustme said:
It's possible, just as it's theoretically possible to be a walk-on QB for a pro football team.
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I've done that with 8 NFL teams. Is that uncommon or something? Should I be listing that as an EC?
 
Fed said:
Anyway, your post wasn't rude, it was just dumb. It's not any of your business what people do with their medical degree. If they want to use it to promote Hydroxycut, so be it. If OP wants to work 25 hours a week and be a mother, then I say go for it. There's no guarantee she'll get such a sweet gig, of course, and she should be fully informed about this prior to attending medical school (which is why she's posting on this site). But the decision to work 20, or 80, or 15, or 55 hours a week is hers alone to make.
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Those are unrelated concepts. It's not really that important to me what someone does with their MD, but it is part of our business actually. There's supposedly a physician shortage, and there's no indication that Congress will be increasing the number of residency positions. Using up a residency slot to work part-time will affect people other than the OP.

Secondly, his post wasn't dumb. Going to college, med school and residency to work 20 hours/week as a physician is a really long run for a short slide. If that's ultimately what she wants, then fine, but you could be a PA, pharmacist, nurse, or quite a few other things for a lot less time and often a lot less money. My student loans are acquiring interest at painfully high speed. Working 20 hours/week as a physician would take quite some time to pay them off.
 
JamaI said:
I don't think women should be in medicine. Check out this NYT Oped.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/opinion/12sibert.html?_r=1

"...if doctors aren’t making full use of their training, taxpayers are losing their investment. With a growing shortage of doctors in America, we can no longer afford to continue training doctors who don’t spend their careers in the full-time practice of medicine."
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Sexism based upon an opinion article which is nothing more than a blog and the blog was not even trying to say women should not be in medicine yet you took it to that level. The writer of that article is a female doctor, but I guess you didn't notice that. I am assuming you are young because your trolling comment certainly reflected that.

Back to the topic at hand...
It is hard to find jobs like that, but more and more places are realizing the importance of having daycares in the building which is a great thing. I would also say that don't look to yourself as the only caretaker of your family. The idea of women taking care of the kids, house and trying to fit in a career on the side is old fashioned anymore and men are stepping up more in terms of caring for the kids and housework. If it is just a matter of having enough time to do it all then split up the responsibilities with the father that way you both have free time to enjoy the family. If you just want more time to do PTA and be a super housewife then you will have to keep your eyes pealed for positions like that.
 
TheProwler said:
Those are unrelated concepts. It's not really that important to me what someone does with their MD, but it is part of our business actually. There's supposedly a physician shortage, and there's no indication that Congress will be increasing the number of residency positions. Using up a residency slot to work part-time will affect people other than the OP.

Secondly, his post wasn't dumb. Going to college, med school and residency to work 20 hours/week as a physician is a really long run for a short slide. If that's ultimately what she wants, then fine, but you could be a PA, pharmacist, nurse, or quite a few other things for a lot less time and often a lot less money. My student loans are acquiring interest at painfully high speed. Working 20 hours/week as a physician would take quite some time to pay them off.
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Ya the residency slot is the only issue here. But if OP is like most pre-meds, she's from a pretty well off family which means she's the one funding residency slots anyway. The people who fund the system, run the system.
 
Fed said:
Ya the residency slot is the only issue here. But if OP is like most pre-meds, she's from a pretty well off family which means she's the one funding residency slots anyway. The people who fund the system, run the system.
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Not exactly a relevant point.

It's not about who funds the residency slot. It's about how many physicians are produced as a result of it. Producing a physician who will only work 20 hours/week is a significant loss compared to one that will work 40-60 hours/week.
 
TheProwler said:
Not exactly a relevant point.

It's not about who funds the residency slot. It's about how many physicians are produced as a result of it. Producing a physician who will only work 20 hours/week is a significant loss compared to one that will work 40-60 hours/week.
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Operating under our current system, the OP's wealth is the most important aspect of this discussion. If she's a freeloader and her parents aren't job creators, then she owes taxpayers something in return for residency slot. If she pays a lot in taxes (and in doing so, funds residency slots), she doesn't owe anybody anything for a slot.

Ideally, of course, the government's intrusion in healthcare would be ended, and taxpayers wouldn't have to subsidize the education of physicians.
 
Fed said:
Operating under our current system, the OP's wealth is the most important aspect of this discussion. If she's a freeloader and her parents aren't job creators, then she owes taxpayers something in return for residency slot. If she pays a lot in taxes (and in doing so, funds residency slots), she doesn't owe anybody anything for a slot.
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No, that's still not the case. She would be taking a spot at the expense of someone else taking that spot. Paying for it is only part of the picture. If residencies could be purchased until we ran out of money, I would agree with you, but it's a zero sum game.
 
TheProwler said:
No, that's still not the case. She would be taking a spot at the expense of someone else taking that spot. Paying for it is only part of the picture. If residencies could be purchased until we ran out of money, I would agree with you, but it's a zero sum game.
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Okay, you're right.

But this gets me thinking ... What if additional residency slots were privately funded? Think of Renaissance artists who had wealthy patrons/sponsors. You know that the wealthy would enjoy the prestige of doing that. Residency crunch...solved???
 
You go through 10 years of medical training (medical school, residency, fellowship) to get the dream job of your choice and you only want to work 20 hours a week? The audacity is overwhelming!
 
thelaw986 said:
You go through 10 years of medical training (medical school, residency, fellowship) to get the dream job of your choice and you only want to work 20 hours a week? The audacity is overwhelming!
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That's a little unfair. If I find myself totally overwhelmed with work and feel like I'm losing my wife or something, I would absolutely want to work less hours. There's nothing wrong with this in my eyes.
 
BigBlueBear said:
That's a little unfair. If I find myself totally overwhelmed with work and feel like I'm losing my wife or something, I would absolutely want to work less hours. There's nothing wrong with this in my eyes.
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What? A normal/pragmatic perspective on SDN? How dare you. Didn't you know you have to devote your entire life to medicine? And guess what else? You can't demand payment for the services your provide! That would be heartless. Silly you. You have to be altruistic in order to be a good physician. You literally have to be. You also have to be compassionate and empathetic. If you are merely intelligent and hard-working, and enjoy what you do, and generate positive health coutcomes, that's not enough. Welcome to this horrible, twisted website.
 
The key to being a successful physician and parent is having a supportive family. If you can count on your partner and extended family for childcare assistance, you can work 40-50 hours a week. Plenty of single parents who aren't in medicine do this, and I believe the majority of families have two parents who work (lots of them full-time). If I were you, I'd look for specialties with lower average hours and flexible schedules to begin with, instead of making plans way in advance to be part-time. Examples are EM and hospitalist shift work jobs, urgent care, FP where you can work for a large group or practice (NOT owned by you), dermatology, allergy/immunology, maybe radiology if you can read images from home when you're on call. Most surgical specialties and OB/GYN have obnoxious hours. Owning your own practice creates a lot of additional work as well. But I don't think it's a good idea to assume that you'll be able to work part-time before even applying. What if you can't find a job that allows you to do this your whole career? Lots of docs are lucky to have a 40-hour workweek. If having a family is absolutely the most important thing to you, and you can imagine yourself happy in another career, I'd urge you to reconsider if medicine will be worth it for you. I'd also recommend finding a female physician with kids to shadow, so you can ask her questions about managing a career and a family.
 
By using a residency spot (a limited public resource of sorts) is it really fair to say that person is obligated to work full time for the next several decades? Would you have the same expectations of someone who went to a public university? Residents provide tons of cheap labor for years, I don't think they owe the system anything.
 
BigBlueBear said:
That's a little unfair. If I find myself totally overwhelmed with work and feel like I'm losing my wife or something, I would absolutely want to work less hours. There's nothing wrong with this in my eyes.
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The truth is you WONT be over-whelmed by work after completing residency. Because during residency you work up to 80 hours a week for basically 4 years! However, after you become an attending physician you will work MUCH LESS than that (~40-60 hours a week). Which will feel like nothing after you've gone though residency hell. From what I've observed, medicine is a time-consuming job that requires your commitment simply because being a doctor is one of the most important jobs out there. People's lives and well being depend upon your presence at the hospital.

If you are overwhelmed with work, the thing to do is to take weeks off for rest and vacation! Then come back to work refreshed.
 
notbobtrustme said:
It's possible, just as it's theoretically possible to be a walk-on QB for a pro football team.
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This, it's possible, but unrealistic. Overhead expenses (office space, medmal) cost just as much for the 20 hour person as the 60 hour person, so if employers aren't running out of 60 hour people, why would they hire someone who generates so much less revenue? And very few specialties lend themselves to part time work if not in an employee setting.

You could be a solo practice psychiatrist with very few patients, but costs would be high, and if you have student loans, 20 billable hours isn't going to cut it. You could pick up 20 hours a week of moonlighting type urgent care work, if you could find it, but you'll have no job security and no constant employment and no employee benefits.

Sure everybody will know "a guy" who manages this, but I also know a guy who juggles chainsaws and eats ground glass for audiences-- doesnt mean it's a realistic or wise path for anybody else.
 
thelaw986 said:
The truth is you WONT be over-whelmed by work after completing residency. Because during residency you work up to 80 hours a week for basically 4 years! However, after you become an attending physician you will work MUCH LESS than that (~40-60 hours a week). Which will feel like nothing after you've gone though residency hell. From what I've observed, medicine is a time-consuming job that requires your commitment simply because being a doctor is one of the most important jobs out there. People's lives and well being depend upon your presence at the hospital.

If you are overwhelmed with work, the thing to do is to take weeks off for rest and vacation! Then come back to work refreshed.
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Um no. Many attendings see their hours step up after residency. You are now the low man on the totem pole of a private practice job, and your liability for your mistakes is now your own, so you micromanage more. It's not uncommon to see the freshly minted attendings step up their hours pretty significantly once they are under the gun.
 
Fed said:
Okay, you're right.

But this gets me thinking ... What if additional residency slots were privately funded? Think of Renaissance artists who had wealthy patrons/sponsors. You know that the wealthy would enjoy the prestige of doing that. Residency crunch...solved???
Click to expand...

Two problems with this. First, You don't want to allow people to "buy" residency slots because it becomes an unfair avenue to keep medicine a profession of the children of the the rich. You lose diversity and won't have doctors willing to care for the underserved if you go this avenue. You will have residencies filled with country club kids and Saudi royalty, not folks who actually are hard workers. Second, to a great extent the funding of residencies allows for control of residencies. As it stands now, if we need more primary care in Northern Florida, by changing the funding allocation you can do that. Without the financial reigns, you might have places ramping up ortho spots here they aren't needed, etc. Or it could devolve like law which doesn't have any real limit to spots, and in tight economic times leads to over saturation and no jobs in certain markets.
 
Fed said:
What? A normal/pragmatic perspective on SDN? How dare you. Didn't you know you have to devote your entire life to medicine? And guess what else? You can't demand payment for the services your provide! That would be heartless. Silly you. You have to be altruistic in order to be a good physician. You literally have to be. You also have to be compassionate and empathetic.
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We're really just trying to limit the number of sociopaths who join the profession. You know, the type who consider basic human emotions to be a burdensome chore.

I would also agree that demanding payment is a bad idea. Leave collections to a billing company.
 
Gut Shot said:
We're really just trying to limit the number of sociopaths who join the profession. You know, the type who consider basic human emotions to be a burdensome chore.

I would also agree that demanding payment is a bad idea. Leave collections to a billing company.
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I think the admissions process favors those who can tolerate service, not those enjoy it. Personally, I hate working with patients who drink, smoke, chew, eat fast food, AND never exercise. Not just one of those things. All of them. And *gasp* they have health problems. This ain't rocket science, folks. That said, my PS is about how this experience has "transformed" me and how I want to practice general internal medicine and serve a medically underserved population. 😉

Also, I am opposed to indirect forms of payment. If you listen to some of Rand Paul's ideas on healthcare...I think he's spot on. Insurance companies negotiate reimbursement rates for certain services such that there's no reason for providers to innovate and lower costs. The healthy subsidize the unhealthy, which is unfair. And the simple fact that insurance companies generate profits is proof we're all getting colletively screwed over. I'm in favor of cash or in-kind payments for medical services upfront, prior to receiving the service (just like buying groceries).
 
Law2Doc said:
Um no. Many attendings see their hours step up after residency. You are now the low man on the totem pole of a private practice job, and your liability for your mistakes is now your own, so you micromanage more. It's not uncommon to see the freshly minted attendings step up their hours pretty significantly once they are under the gun.
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The attending doctor i was speaking with has worked just about 2 years as an attending physician of oncology/hematology. (Yes he's quite a newbie). He is all smiles when I talk to him about his current work load. On the other hand, when I ask about his residency experience at USC, he was all frowns.

Would it be possible to tell me what specialty you are working under? I'm interested.
 
Fed said:
Do we know the OP has student loans to pay off? Let's not jump to conclusions.

Anyway, your post wasn't rude, it was just dumb. It's not any of your business what people do with their medical degree. If they want to use it to promote Hydroxycut, so be it. If OP wants to work 25 hours a week and be a mother, then I say go for it. There's no guarantee she'll get such a sweet gig, of course, and she should be fully informed about this prior to attending medical school (which is why she's posting on this site). But the decision to work 20, or 80, or 15, or 55 hours a week is hers alone to make.
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99% chance she does :laugh:
 
Fed said:
I think the admissions process favors those who can tolerate service, not those enjoy it. Personally, I hate working with patients who drink, smoke, chew, eat fast food, AND never exercise. Not just one of those things. All of them. And *gasp* they have health problems. This ain't rocket science, folks. That said, my PS is about how this experience has "transformed" me and how I want to practice general internal medicine and serve a medically underserved population. 😉

Also, I am opposed to indirect forms of payment. If you listen to some of Rand Paul's ideas on healthcare...I think he's spot on. Insurance companies negotiate reimbursement rates for certain services such that there's no reason for providers to innovate and lower costs. The healthy subsidize the unhealthy, which is unfair. And the simple fact that insurance companies generate profits is proof we're all getting colletively screwed over. I'm in favor of cash or in-kind payments for medical services upfront, prior to receiving the service (just like buying groceries).
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They pay out 80% of what they take in... Are we also getting collectively screwed over by grocery stores that profit? People HAVE to eat.

That is partially the point of the co-pay. I personally think insurance companies shouldn't be able to dilly-dally and delay payment. Like in france, they should be required by law to pay within 3 days.
 
Fed said:
I think the admissions process favors those who can tolerate service, not those enjoy it. Personally, I hate working with patients who drink, smoke, chew, eat fast food, AND never exercise. Not just one of those things. All of them. And *gasp* they have health problems. This ain't rocket science, folks. That said, my PS is about how this experience has "transformed" me and how I want to practice general internal medicine and serve a medically underserved population. 😉

Also, I am opposed to indirect forms of payment. If you listen to some of Rand Paul's ideas on healthcare...I think he's spot on. Insurance companies negotiate reimbursement rates for certain services such that there's no reason for providers to innovate and lower costs. The healthy subsidize the unhealthy, which is unfair. And the simple fact that insurance companies generate profits is proof we're all getting colletively screwed over. I'm in favor of cash or in-kind payments for medical services upfront, prior to receiving the service (just like buying groceries).
Click to expand...

does your family background happen to be rich, white, and Republican by any chance? 😛
 
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